AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2011, 10:17:15 AM »
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Every religious person is blind to his own religions' absurdities. I doubt you could find one monotheistic person on the planet who doesn't believe that.

Also, you might enjoy paging through this:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/

Well that might be true in some cases but not all
If someone thought their own religion was absurd, they wouldn't keep it.

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it’s not fair to judge a book by it’s cover, read the contents of the book then judge. You guys should read first the Quran and the authentic books of Islam.
Judge it in what way? The only judgement I've made is that it is a book.
You've full out deemed it to be the written word of some deity.

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Don’t just judge Islam by it’s cover or because of some black sheep. If I invented a perfect car, however the driver was a bad driver and he crushed the car, will you blame me and say your car is worst!
I wouldn't say it was the worst, but I would need proof it was the best.
(I say 'best' because perfection doesn't exist.)

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But before that I hope you do search well like www.answering-christianity.com and other websites which are dedicated to answer false claims against Quran. If you are lazy or not interested to do so, you can always take one topic of that website you gave, post it in a separate topic and In Sha Allah I will answer :)
99% of the questions or problems I see asked are dismissed in a convoluted non-answer. The responses drown out the core issue with long frivolous posts or irrelevant tangents. I'm not sure if they can't grasp the precise nature of the issues that people bring up against them and they try to address everything remotely related, or if it's have psychological defense mechanism to resort to clouding the water so they can still personally ignore the substance of the critiques.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 10:21:54 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2011, 10:42:12 AM »
Before commenting on your posts, I would request you to kindly post all the questions you asked me which some of you claimed that I ignored :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #122 on: July 12, 2011, 10:58:21 AM »
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Oh Chris, if you really wish to learn regardless of how bad is the teacher you would do your best to learn, if you are having exam in the few next days, and the teacher gave you slides and articles to read, he failed to explain the slides, articles…etc you shouldn’t give up just because the teacher failed and was bad, you would hold the papers yourself and read so you can answer in the upcoming exam.

I really wish to learn about the asymmetry of matter-antimatter collisions, I really want to learn about why a quantum particle is affected by observation, I really want to learn what happens to the universe in a hundred trillion years, these are interesting questions to me. I'm not hugely interested in the minutiae of one bronze-age story-book versus the hundreds of thousands of other stories available.

I want to learn about Islam much as I want to learn about the US political system, that is, if there are some good articles and resources available which will illustrate the point then I'll read it.  I want to learn roughly about how a president is elected, I don't want to read every letter of the US constitution and every court-case minutes clarifying the constitution.

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This is the chance gentlemen, its Impossible logically and by pure reasoning that blind chance prevent error of over billions of attempts to create and arrange one Protein molecule!


And as we've constantly explained to you there's no random chance involved in protein synthesis.

If I pour water on top of a valley, is it random chance that it will end up at the bottom?

When a golfer hits a ball, random chance determines that it could land just about anywhere or not land at all, but ultimately the flight of the ball can be accurately predicted because its movement is not random. Which is why we can create startlingly accurate golf simulators


It's also why we can make startlingly accurate protein synthesis simulators:


This point has been made before, will you drop this ignorant blind chance argument, now?


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Nolhekh

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2011, 02:19:39 PM »
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Now, consider this:  If these devices were given the ability to reproduce, as soon as a glitch occurs in the process, a slight change in the design will occur.  This will continue to happen as long as the devices reproduce, and these devices would evolve based on whatever conditions favour the slight changes.  If a reproducing jumbo jet survives better going faster, then it would eventually evolve into a plane that is better suited for speed.

Well I am not sure if you are aware of what you wrote but I assume you are. First of all you said it yourself, “were given” a device can’t give itself such ability or feature before it exists, there should be someone who gave it that feature, that ability of reproducing. While the second part of what you said you better read my previous posts in this topic.
Yes, I said were given because I know for a fact humans constructed those things, and therefore they'd have to be given such an ability.  My point is that they'd still evolve, showing that evolution is quite real, regardless of how life started.
But if you want to talk about how life started, which you must understand, is a separate topic from evolution, you do not know that such a feature had to be given.  You never witnessed the start of life, so you don't know.  Just because you've never witnessed a natural mechanism for developing reproducing entities doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  You cannot claim that reproduction did not arise from a series of chemical reactions, and I can't claim that God didn't create the universe, because neither of us were there to witness it.  You can use logic all you want, but logic is nothing without evidence.

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If God was perfect, and he wanted humans to exist and could create them right off the bat, why would he make a creature that changes with every generation when he can create an asexually multiplying race of beings to live in god made homes being happy and praying to him?  Why make them even reproduce?  Why not just make another God?

As I said to Lorddave, we can’t know why God did this or that, however if we know Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise, Perfect…etc we wouldn’t even ask him this question, Human would never understand how God thinks. In fact we humans can't even understand each others well otherwise there wouldn't be any conflict in our world. It's because we don't understand each others such fights and conflicts exists. If we humans (Who can never be compared to God) can't understand each others how we would understand God's acts. Imagine a father having a son with serious sickness where he should cut his son's leg or his son would die. Even though it pains the father to cut his son's leg but he knows it's for his best. So when you see something you can't bear in this world, don't say God is not merciful or he is what you called, just because you don't know the wisdom behind God's acts you shouldn't unnecessary inappropriate titles and attributes. We may understand one reason why God allowed one thing to happen but we can never know all the reasons.  This happens even in our life, an author in his words he meant a lot of things but the reader only discovered 2 wisdoms behind the words of author while another discovered 10. If you are still having difficulty to understand this part, please let me know I will try to explain more.
I'm perfectly willing to admit that I don't actually understand God.

Also seeing that this website is not primarily one for religious debate, being titled the Flat Earth Society, and since I'm not on here full time, you can't expect me to read through all of your posts, which you must realize are really long.  If there is a specific point that you want me to notice that somehow shows how I'm wrong, please point it out.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2011, 03:28:52 PM »
Before commenting on your posts, I would request you to kindly post all the questions you asked me which some of you claimed that I ignored :)
'Ignoring' was in the context of not answering despite responding, and my dislike for irony will prevent me from listing this post as one of them. ;)

I don't have a list of our conversations over the years, but here's something I recently found. Though I admit I could have been more persistent, as it looks like I was absent from my own thread too much.

1. I asked why god created the devil. You said it is not our place to question god. This dismisses the question without actually addressing its substance.

Obviously I will never stop questioning god, so telling me not to makes less sense than giving me a decent answer. That is, assuming you have one.  :)

2. Here is one that I'm not sure if you missed, or thought to be rhetorical. It is basically saying that whatever gives every indication that it is a certain way, should be assumed to be that way until new evidence or reasoning overrules it.
For instance, if "genocide by natural diseases/disasters/etc" strikes everyone as immoral, they should not be assumed to be moral simply because they were god's action. To assume the opposite is to dismiss reasoning to favor a preconceived conclusion, which is an admission to compromising your own investigative integrity.

3. This is still somewhat recent, so its very possible you just haven't gotten around to it yet, but I am awaiting an answer here.

4. Again, probably too recent to hold against you, but I might as well mention this:)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 04:32:18 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Lorddave

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2011, 03:52:47 PM »
If you can't create something you do not possess and God created Evil, does that mean God has evil in him?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2011, 03:55:34 PM »
Not to start a tangent, but I'd still like to see evidence that things can be created.

The fallacious painting/painter relationship I see used so much, especially by Ray Comfort, uses creation examples in our lives to justify them in supernatural terms. Nothing has ever demonstrably been created in a way that wasn't actually just a transformation.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Demouse

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2011, 07:59:02 PM »
I tihnk it is more logically valid to worship abadar than allah

http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Abadar

At least his tenants make sense and you don't have to wade through hundreds of pages of holy script to get his message.


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Oh Skycake.... Why are you so delicious?


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Demouse

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2011, 08:04:20 PM »
I also worship Iomedae. She has 11 recorded miracles and no one is yet to dispute the truth to these claims.

http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Acts_of_Iomedae

Since neither of these two god live in this dimension you can not prove they don't exist.


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Oh Skycake.... Why are you so delicious?


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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #129 on: July 13, 2011, 01:07:50 AM »
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Allah fails the tests.
God does not depend on anything yes?
But God depends on Angela to spread his messages to a human( Gabriel spoke to Mohommed). And he needs humans to spread his word. He has had a few prophets but never has he spoken to all humans and given them his word.
Therefore God depends on Angels and Prophets. And thus fails one of the four tests.

I guess I didn’t explain well what I mean by depend, when I say depend it’s as if you can’t do something but only when you are depending on someone else. When I said the universe is dependent I meant dependent on something so it can be created, it cannot be created if there was no creator, the ball will not move if nothing kicked or moved the ball, so it’s dependent on something else. God doesn’t depend on angels in way that he can’t do that without them, in fact using angels as messengers, using prophets as messengers are signs of his perfections. Suppose I was king and I wanted to deliver a message to my people, I wouldn’t go to each one of them and tell them about my words instead I will send my servants to do the job. Another example, you can eat “Dog’s Shit” however once you do so you insulted yourself. God can deliver his messages to people however having billions of Angels serving him, having Prophets, having such kingdom it shows Allah’s greatness not Allah’s weakness that he needs something. That’s why I always repeat the same thing, it’s important to know the qualities and attributes of God. As I told you Allah will never fail the tests I mentioned 

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And why do you keep implying that I'm insane?

I don’t remember I did, if I did then I am sorry

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If someone thought their own religion was absurd, they wouldn't keep it
Not true, I know some people at work who are Christians they admit their religion is absurd yet they are Christians and they don’t want to change their religion. There are many reasons why one might not change his beliefs. You may like to discuss this in another topic.

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I wouldn't say it was the worst, but I would need proof it was the best.
(I say 'best' because perfection doesn't exist.)

Well if it was religion made by humans, book written by humans it might not be perfect, but since it was by Allah his words are Perfect, his religion is Perfect. Proofs are very clear and all over, but as they say some require only one proof to be guided and while others even if you give them 1000 proofs they wouldn’t change their beliefs, I pray you are not of the last.

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If I pour water on top of a valley, is it random chance that it will end up at the bottom?

No it’s not random chance but causes that caused the water to end up at the bottom, hope that answers your question, however if not I would request to explain more so I can understand.
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This point has been made before, will you drop this ignorant blind chance argument, now?
Please correct me, are you claiming there is no blind chance, but an intended chance?

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You cannot claim that reproduction did not arise from a series of chemical reactions, and I can't claim that God didn't create the universe, because neither of us were there to witness it.  You can use logic all you want, but logic is nothing without evidence.

You said it, you can’t claim that God didn’t create the universe, however if we can logically and by reasoning prove that he exists, by pure reason that the book he revealed cannot be from humans but only from God then the words in that book will be evidence for us how the universe was created, what will happen in the future…etc it’s many things related but once collected and you have proved obviously that he exists then you will have evidence. For example if I was a king and I wanted you to do a task, however I sent a messenger to give you the letter where I wrote the task in, first you have to know if I do exists, once you have collected all the logical reasons why he I should exists, then you have to prove that letter is written by me and is truly my words and it cannot be words from others, then you can proceed in doing the task.

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If there is a specific point that you want me to notice that somehow shows how I'm wrong, please point it out.

Well what I understood from you that evolution may happens but then you agreed we can’t tell what was the first cause, so I don’t know why I should prove you wrong because you are not claiming that evolution is the cause of everything, or at least this is what I understood. Anyway if you are interested to read some of the posts, I suggest you to read the following:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49396.msg1213861#msg1213861

Read the last section (quote) of the following post

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49396.msg1214174#msg1214174
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49396.msg1214274#msg1214274

I will provide you with more posts if you need.
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #130 on: July 13, 2011, 01:08:21 AM »
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1. I asked why god created the devil. You said it is not our place to question god. This dismisses the question without actually addressing its substance.

Obviously I will never stop questioning god, so telling me not to makes less sense than giving me a decent answer. That is, assuming you have one.

Well the answer consists of two parts, the first part is that if you are someone who believes in God’s existence, if you are someone who believes in his names, attributes and qualities then you don’t need to ask this question, the moment you ask it means you don’t have faith in what you believed.

Second part, which I am not sure if I understood your question well, I think you are asking about the wisdoms behind this act (El Hekma) why he did this, well we as humans can’t discover all the wisdoms behind God’s acts, I explained that before you may refer to my previous posts. However I as AbdulAziz can give you with some reasons. First of all if God didn’t create the devils we wouldn’t know who is siding with God and who is siding with the devil and based on this the reward he/she may receive. Another reason without the devil, atheists wouldn’t deny the existence of God, without devil there will not be Muslims! Muslims are those who submitted their will to God, because there is something that affects our will it’s when we struggle against it and submit to God it’s when we are called Muslims.

Without the devils and the fact that he encourages human being to do bad deeds you wouldn’t appreciate the good deeds, as they say you cannot appreciate the beauty of day if there was no darkness. Without the devil we wouldn’t know the names of almighty God, for example we know Allah is creator because he created us, Allah is the supporter because he supports his servants, Allah the one who punish those who disobey him, if the devil wasn’t created we wouldn’t learn. There are countless wisdoms a human may get out of this, it depends on the knowledge one have. I know you might ask why Allah want his servants to fight for him, submit their will, worship him…etc well he doesn’t need them Allah is perfect without us, he is perfect with us, he is Always perfect. However for example if I am great king, I know I am perfect and great, however what is better to be king or to have kingdom, billions of servants, billions of…etc another example, if I am a great painter, the perfect painter, it’s always better to have beautiful painting instead of just calling myself a great painter. Hope I didn’t fail in answering your question.

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2. Here is one that I'm not sure if you missed, or thought to be rhetorical. It is basically saying that whatever gives every indication that it is a certain way, should be assumed to be that way until new evidence or reasoning overrules it.
For instance, if "genocide by natural diseases/disasters/etc" strikes everyone as immoral, they should not be assumed to be moral simply because they were god's action. To assume the opposite is to dismiss reasoning to favor a preconceived conclusion, which is an admission to compromising your own investigative integrity.
I guess I grasped what you are trying to say. You should know that actions are related to two things, one from God’s view (I don’t know how to use the exact world to translate what I want to say) and the other is from the Human’s view. For example it’s God that allowed a certain thing to happen say for example that I kill a human being, from the humans or my point of view this action is wrong and the result for me is wrong so I shouldn’t be happy about it and I should change it and don’t give up saying it’s what God willed because God already told us what God likes and dislikes. However from God’s view when he allowed such act its not totally evil, he might allowed my killing to give chance for other humans to be brave to help the innocent, to take me to justice, to show people the result of bad deeds…etc there can be thousands other good reasons compared to the one seeming bad act. For example, we sometimes hate to take medicine but because we know the many advantages of this medicine we take it. I wish I did understand your question well if not please can you explain in another way.

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Did I misunderstand this? It sounds like the only motivation/drive for virtue that you acknowledge is faith.

I might be the one who didn’t use the proper word. I explained before, faith is not the only motivation a human may have to do certain thing or stop doing something, however because of the many fruits of faith in the given situations I talked about before, it can be considered virtue.

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how can you say they consider it false? Is this just flat out denial on your end? 

There are many websites I posted in my previous posts that quotes saying of great scientiests that’s refusing the idea, for example you can read http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml and you can read hundreds of articles here http://www.harunyahya.com/en.m_categorie_76.php the man have great awareness about them. However if you mean a specefic dedicated self-approved organization it’s something else.

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The "theory" of gravity is also a "fact".
I guess we mean different thing then, because I know the gravity is fact, there are proves that cannot be denied, however the theory there is room for uncertainty,  for example the fire is hot is an obvious fact because it was proved.  The Quran is in agreement with most known scientific fact and does not contradict any known ones; I will post numerous quotes from the scientific community regarding the nature and the origins of the Quran. French physician Maurice Bucaille said: “Our knowledge of these disciplines is such that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Quran could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times”. Keith L. Moore said: “It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.” Tejatet Tejasen said: “From my studies and what I have learnt at this conference I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran 1400 years ago must be true. That can be proved through the scientific way". E. Marshal Johnson said: “The Quran describes not only the development of external form but emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science... If I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described... I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved..."  T.V.N. Persaud said: “Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He couldn’t read, didn’t know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate... we’re talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature... I personally can’t see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements". What I am trying to say established fact that was proved can never contradicts Quran or Allah.

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God exerts 0 detectable influences on the human race in any and all demonstrable forms. Both induction and common sense tells us that the only things that have no influence are things that do not exist.

I didn’t understand the question, can you please rephrase it if you don’t mind. Thanks in advance

 
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If you can't create something you do not possess and God created Evil, does that mean God has evil in him?
You are again comparing your ability with that of God that’s why you are always having some difficulty in understanding. Anyway I will prove you that’s not the case, for example I am a scientist and I have invented a knife to cut fruits…etc am I evil because I did so people can kill themselves using that knife. God can create what seems to us and perceived by us evil but he will never be evil or have evil in him as you described. Allah can take me both and you and throw us to heaven or hell but that would be against his wisdom, justice…etc because two different things can’t be the same, if you for example are denying his existence and you are insulting god while I am praising him and sacrificing my life for his sake then we both get the same result then God is not fair, being unfair is an ungodly attribute thus our God (Allah) can’t be having this quality. To further understand about the act, read my answer to one of ﮎingulaЯiτy ‘s question.
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #131 on: July 13, 2011, 01:32:05 AM »
Back to the topic, proving the existence of God:


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As we have said before the universe having a beginning means that the universe was brought into being out of nothing, that is, that it was created. If a created thing exists (which did not exist beforehand), then it certainly should have a Creator. Being from non-being is something inconceivable to the human mind. Therefore, being from non-being is very different from bringing objects together to form a new object (such as works of art or technological inventions). It is a sign of Allah's Creation alone that everything formed perfectly all at once and in a single moment, when the created things had no previous examples and not even time and space existed in which to create them.

The coming of the universe into being from non-being is the greatest proof possible that it has been created. Consideration of this fact will change a lot of things. It helps people understand the meaning of life and review their attitudes and purposes. This is why many scientific communities have tried to disregard the fact of Creation which they could not fully comprehend, even though its evidence was clear to them. The fact that all scientific evidence points to the existence of a Creator has compelled them to invent alternatives and thus create confusion in the minds of people. Nevertheless, the evidence of science itself puts a definite end to these theories.

Now, let us take a brief look at the scientific developmental process through which the universe came about.

THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
In 1929, the American astronomer Edwin Hubble, working at the California Mount Wilson observatory, made one of the most important discoveries in the history of astronomy. Observing a number of stars through his huge telescope, he discovered that their light was shifted towards the red end of the spectrum and, crucially, that this shift was directly related to the distance of the stars from earth. This discovery had an electrifying effect in the world of science, because according to the recognized rules of physics, the spectra of light beams travelling towards the point of observation tend towards violet while the spectra of light beams moving away from the point of observation tend towards red. During Hubble's observations, the light from stars was discovered to tend towards red. This meant that they were constantly moving away from us.

Before long, Hubble made another important discovery; The stars weren't just racing away from Earth; they were racing away from each other as well. The only conclusion that could be derived from a universe where everything moves away from everything else is that the universe constantly "expands".

To better understand, the universe can be thought of as the surface of a balloon being blown up. Just as the points on the surface of a balloon move apart from each other as the balloon is inflated, so do the objects in space move apart from each other as the universe keeps expanding.

In fact, this had been theoretically discovered even earlier. Albert Einstein, who is considered the greatest scientist of the century, had concluded after the calculations he made in theoretical physics that the universe could not be static. However, he had laid his discovery to rest simply not to conflict with the widely recognised static universe model of his time. Later on, Einstein was to identify his act as "the greatest mistake of his career". Subsequently, it became definite by Hubble's observations, that the universe expands.

What importance, then, did the fact that the universe expands have on the existence of the universe?

The expansion of the universe implied that if it could travel backwards in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. The calculations showed that this "single point" that harboured all the matter of the universe should have "zero volume" and "infinite density". The universe had come about by the explosion of this single point with zero volume. This great explosion that marked the beginning of the universe was named the "Big Bang" and the theory started to be so called.

It has to be stated that "zero volume" is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of "nothingness", which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as "a point with zero volume". In truth, "a point with no volume" means "nothingness". The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created.

The Big Bang theory showed that in the beginning all the objects in the universe were of one piece and then were parted. This fact, which was revealed by the Big Bang theory was stated in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago, when people had a very limited knowledge about the universe:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Chapter al-Anbiya, 30)

As stated in the verse, everything, even the "heavens and the earth" that were not yet created, were created with a Big Bang out of a single point, and began shaping the present universe by being parted from each other. When we compare the information given in the verse with the Big Bang theory, we see that they fully agree with each other. However, the Big Bang was introduced as a scientific theory only in the 20th century.  The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this fact was not discovered by science until the 20th century, Allah has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago:

It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 47)

Another piece

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The Army Inside Man
Every day, a war is fought in the innermost parts of your body unperceived by you. On the one side are viruses and bacteria that aim to intrude into your body and take it under control and on the other are the immunity cells that protect the body against these enemies.

The enemies wait in an offensive state to make their way into the area they aim at and they head towards the target area at the first opportunity. However, the strong, organised and disciplined soldiers of the target area do not easily give in to the enemies. First, the soldiers who swallow and neutralise the enemy soldiers (phagocytes) arrive at the battleground. However, sometimes the fight is tougher than these soldiers can handle. On such occasions, other soldiers (macrophages) are summoned up. Their involvement causes alarm in the target area and other soldiers (helper T cells) are also called to battle.

These soldiers are very familiar with the local populace. They quickly distinguish their own army from that of the enemy. They immediately activate the soldiers assigned to weapon production (B cells). These soldiers have extraordinary abilities. Although they never see the enemy, they can produce weapons which will render the enemy ineffectual. In addition, they carry the weapons they produce as far as they should be taken. During this journey, they succeed in the difficult task of not causing any harm either to themselves or to their allies. Later, the striker teams cut in (killer T cells). These discharge the poisonous material they carry on themselves at the most vital spot of the enemy. In case of victory, another group of soldiers arrives at the battleground (suppressor T cells) and sends all the warriors back to their camp. The soldiers who arrive at the battleground last (memory cells) record all relevant information about the enemy, so that it can be used in the event of a similar invasion in the future.

The excellent army discussed above is the immune system in the human body. Everything explained above is done by microscopic cells unobservable to the naked eye.

How many people are aware that they have such an organised, disciplined and perfect army inside their bodies? How many of them are aware that they are surrounded on all sides by microbes that, if unimpeded, would cause them to catch serious illnesses or even die? Indeed, there are many dangerous microbes in the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, and the surfaces we touch. While one is unaware of all that is going on, the cells in one's body make strenuous efforts to save one from an illness that may even bring about one's death.

The ability of all immunity cells to distinguish enemy cells from body cells, the ability of B cells to prepare a weapon to neutralise the enemy that they have never seen, their ability to carry these weapons as far as they have to be taken without adversely affecting any body cells, the signal-receiving cells' fulfilling their duty completely without making any objections, each of them knowing what to do, their returning to their places without any problem as soon as they are finished with their work, and the abilities of the memory cells are only some of the distinctive characteristics of this system.

For all these reasons, the story of the formation of the immunity system is never taken up by any evolutionist writer.
It is extremely difficult for a person without an immunity system or with an ill-functioning one to survive, since he would be exposed to all the microbes and viruses in the outside world. Today, such people can exist only in special enclosures with no direct contact with anyone or anything outside. Therefore, it is impossible for a person without an immunity system to survive in a primitive environment. This leads us to the conclusion that an extremely complex system such as the immune system could only have been created all at once and with all of its elements intact.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:35:21 AM by AbdulAziz »
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Demouse

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #132 on: July 13, 2011, 02:40:10 AM »


Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Chapter al-Anbiya, 30)



I have already addressed this.

You can pick verses that happen to be congruent with reality all you like, but it gets far more wrong and they get swepped under the rug by believers.
Its like cold reading for the universe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

If it is the word of an infalliable omnipotent and omnicient being then it has to get EVERYTHING right. Accidentally sort of coming close to reality sometimes is not good enough.

Not to put words in another's mouth but i'll rephrase


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God exerts 0 detectable influences on the human race in any and all demonstrable forms. Both induction and common sense tells us that the only things that have no influence are things that do not exist.

I didn’t understand the question, can you please rephrase it if you don’t mind. Thanks in advance

For you.

What I believe he means here is that your god exerts no influence on the universe that we can detect, and only things which do no not exists exert no influence.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:41:55 AM by Demouse »


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Lorddave

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #133 on: July 13, 2011, 03:32:15 AM »
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Allah fails the tests.
God does not depend on anything yes?
But God depends on Angela to spread his messages to a human( Gabriel spoke to Mohommed). And he needs humans to spread his word. He has had a few prophets but never has he spoken to all humans and given them his word.
Therefore God depends on Angels and Prophets. And thus fails one of the four tests.

I guess I didn’t explain well what I mean by depend, when I say depend it’s as if you can’t do something but only when you are depending on someone else. When I said the universe is dependent I meant dependent on something so it can be created, it cannot be created if there was no creator, the ball will not move if nothing kicked or moved the ball, so it’s dependent on something else. God doesn’t depend on angels in way that he can’t do that without them, in fact using angels as messengers, using prophets as messengers are signs of his perfections. Suppose I was king and I wanted to deliver a message to my people, I wouldn’t go to each one of them and tell them about my words instead I will send my servants to do the job. Another example, you can eat “Dog’s Shit” however once you do so you insulted yourself. God can deliver his messages to people however having billions of Angels serving him, having Prophets, having such kingdom it shows Allah’s greatness not Allah’s weakness that he needs something. That’s why I always repeat the same thing, it’s important to know the qualities and attributes of God. As I told you Allah will never fail the tests I mentioned 
You are comparing God to Mortal Kings.  You can't do that.  The power of mortal Kings to have servants is beyond the power of God.
I think it is YOU who do not understand Allah.

Oh and a King can address his people without servants.  A King has Television and mass media.  You want us to believe God has such power yet he is merciful and wise so he uses an angel to speak to a man and wait for that message to be delivered to the people of the world all the while billions of souls are lost to Hell for not hearing the word of Mohommed who claims to be speaking for Gabriel, who claims to be speaking for God?

If I were to say that Gabriel has given me a message from God last night to say to you, would you not doubt me?  What proof could I offer besides what you have offered?  You would question why God did not speak to you directly would you not?
And so do I.
Oh and the message is: "Silence"

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You are again comparing your ability with that of God that’s why you are always having some difficulty in understanding. Anyway I will prove you that’s not the case, for example I am a scientist and I have invented a knife to cut fruits…etc am I evil because I did so people can kill themselves using that knife. God can create what seems to us and perceived by us evil but he will never be evil or have evil in him as you described. Allah can take me both and you and throw us to heaven or hell but that would be against his wisdom, justice…etc because two different things can’t be the same, if you for example are denying his existence and you are insulting god while I am praising him and sacrificing my life for his sake then we both get the same result then God is not fair, being unfair is an ungodly attribute thus our God (Allah) can’t be having this quality. To further understand about the act, read my answer to one of ﮎingulaЯiτy ‘s question.
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Ok that’s correct, but if you see God’s creation, from them you can get more of God’s qualities, for example if I created something very heavy to lift, Billion tons that mean I am strong because I was able to create it, if I created a robot and gave it a voice that means I can talk and I understand talks….etc
By your own words, if you create something then you must possess that ability.

Also: Who are you to question God's will?  You claim that his will is unknown yet here you are, AGAIN, claiming to know what an all wise being would do.  Are you all wise?  If the all mighty throws us both into Heaven or Hell then who are you to question him?  You are NOTHING!  You are but a mere slave and his will is your bidding.  If he bid you be thrown into Hell with me then his wisdom is beyond your understanding. But you believe otherwise don't you?  You believe you are wiser than God.  You believe you know what God will do because of your definition of Justice even though you have claimed time and time again that we can not imagine what Justice is for God.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #134 on: July 13, 2011, 03:58:46 AM »
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As we have said before the universe having a beginning means that the universe was brought into being out of nothing, that is, that it was created. If a created thing exists (which did not exist beforehand), then it certainly should have a Creator.


Once more, the net amount of mass/energy in the universe is mathematically zero. Nothing has been 'created' or 'destroyed' merely changed states as is consistent with what we know about quantum physics (See quantum foam and vacuum energy)

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Being from non-being is something inconceivable to the human mind. Therefore, being from non-being is very different from bringing objects together to form a new object (such as works of art or technological inventions). It is a sign of Allah's Creation alone that everything formed perfectly all at once and in a single moment, when the created things had no previous examples and not even time and space existed in which to create them.

Firstly, don't project your own lack of imagination onto others.

Secondly, it is not a sign of Allah's creation but an example of the principle that 'nothing' is unstable, as has been described before.

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The coming of the universe into being from non-being is the greatest proof possible that it has been created.


Read above, why is a sign that 0=0 proof of God?

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Now, let us take a brief look at the scientific developmental process through which the universe came about.

Blahdiblah, I promise you that most of us here understand the Big Bang theory a hell of a lot better than you do with your copypasta.


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It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 47)

Well this is awkward, because the expansion of the universe is not steady, Hubble's observations demonstrate that it is expanding and accelerating.

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Blahdiblah

For all these reasons, the story of the formation of the immunity system is never taken up by any evolutionist writer.

Bullshit plain and simple. This is the result of a five-second google, http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/the-evolution-of-the-immune-system/

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It is extremely difficult for a person without an immunity system or with an ill-functioning one to survive, since he would be exposed to all the microbes and viruses in the outside world. Today, such people can exist only in special enclosures with no direct contact with anyone or anything outside. Therefore, it is impossible for a person without an immunity system to survive in a primitive environment. This leads us to the conclusion that an extremely complex system such as the immune system could only have been created all at once and with all of its elements intact.

It would be impossible today for a city to survive for long without a fire service and look at all those trucks, men, call centres, satelite uplinks, equipment, fire alarms etc etc etc can we then conclude that New York City and London have always existed as they are today with a fully functioning fire service? Of course not, the fire service has grown in synchronisation with the city to respond to the city's needs, just as a 1940s fire service couldn't hope to keep a modern London safe, so an immune system from 10,000 years ago couldn't protect a modern human.

The immune system has evolved co-dependently with the body.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2011, 04:09:19 AM »
Before commenting on your posts if they require comments, is there any question you claim I ignored :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2011, 04:19:56 AM »
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Please correct me, are you claiming there is no blind chance, but an intended chance?

It isn't 'chance' at all! We can accurately simulate golf, buildings, explosions, the movement of planets, the synthesis of protein, the splitting of cells, the movement of water, the expansion of gas, the flow of electricity etc etc because they're all beholden to the phisical proprties of the universe around us!

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Demouse

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2011, 04:48:30 AM »
Before commenting on your posts if they require comments, is there any question you claim I ignored :)

You don't ignore questions. Only answers.


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Lorddave

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2011, 05:20:46 AM »
Before commenting on your posts if they require comments, is there any question you claim I ignored :)

You don't ignore questions. Only answers.
Thou Can't give what thou does not have.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Demouse

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2011, 07:29:56 AM »
Before commenting on your posts if they require comments, is there any question you claim I ignored :)

You don't ignore questions. Only answers.
Thou Can't give what thou does not have.

Well that explains why he can't give me a valid reason for believing in god.


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Lorddave

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2011, 09:27:36 AM »
I think we should go back to the first point: can something exist without being created?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2011, 09:36:16 AM »
Yes, see: virtual particles and quantum foam.

That's if you excluded 'created by natural causes' like sand dunes or mountains.

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Lorddave

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2011, 09:42:46 AM »
Yes, see: virtual particles and quantum foam.

That's if you excluded 'created by natural causes' like sand dunes or mountains.
And thus logic wins against God.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2011, 11:55:44 AM »
Again before we go further and comment on your recent posts, Can you please specify the questions that you think I ignored answering? remind me like what our respected member Mr. ﮎingulaЯiτy did.

Thanks...
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Crustinator

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2011, 03:06:35 PM »
How would you convince someone else I exist (assuming I'm not in the room)?

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Nolhekh

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2011, 04:53:25 PM »
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You cannot claim that reproduction did not arise from a series of chemical reactions, and I can't claim that God didn't create the universe, because neither of us were there to witness it.  You can use logic all you want, but logic is nothing without evidence.

You said it, you can’t claim that God didn’t create the universe, however if we can logically and by reasoning prove that he exists, by pure reason that the book he revealed cannot be from humans but only from God then the words in that book will be evidence for us how the universe was created, what will happen in the future…etc it’s many things related but once collected and you have proved obviously that he exists then you will have evidence.
For example if I was a king and I wanted you to do a task, however I sent a messenger to give you the letter where I wrote the task in, first you have to know if I do exists, once you have collected all the logical reasons why he I should exists, then you have to prove that letter is written by me and is truly my words and it cannot be words from others, then you can proceed in doing the task.

So, in proving the existence of God, what is, in your opinion, the most compelling argument for his existence? Or for his existence as described by the Quran? (I already believe in God, so in debating with me, your opposition is not in fact arguing that God does not exist)  I apologize if you've said it, and I've probably already read it, but it's a difficult task deciding which arguments to consider first.  I hope to keep this discussion as efficient as possible.


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Lorddave

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2011, 06:16:47 PM »
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You cannot claim that reproduction did not arise from a series of chemical reactions, and I can't claim that God didn't create the universe, because neither of us were there to witness it.  You can use logic all you want, but logic is nothing without evidence.

You said it, you can’t claim that God didn’t create the universe, however if we can logically and by reasoning prove that he exists, by pure reason that the book he revealed cannot be from humans but only from God then the words in that book will be evidence for us how the universe was created, what will happen in the future…etc it’s many things related but once collected and you have proved obviously that he exists then you will have evidence.
For example if I was a king and I wanted you to do a task, however I sent a messenger to give you the letter where I wrote the task in, first you have to know if I do exists, once you have collected all the logical reasons why he I should exists, then you have to prove that letter is written by me and is truly my words and it cannot be words from others, then you can proceed in doing the task.

So, in proving the existence of God, what is, in your opinion, the most compelling argument for his existence? Or for his existence as described by the Quran? (I already believe in God, so in debating with me, your opposition is not in fact arguing that God does not exist)  I apologize if you've said it, and I've probably already read it, but it's a difficult task deciding which arguments to consider first.  I hope to keep this discussion as efficient as possible.
If I've understood him correctly it's that we exist.
His logic is that all things need a creator but something must exist that doesn't need a creator to stop the infinite "who created that". Thus God is that which has always existed and thus started the "who created that" line.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Demouse

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2011, 07:30:16 PM »
AbdulAziz have you watched the "A Universe From Nothing" lecture by lawrence Krauss?

It is an hour long but worth it if you want to understand where we are coming from in regards to matter from nothing and quantum fluctuations.



If you can't be bothered watching it let me know so I don't assume you have.


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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2011, 11:26:00 PM »
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1. I asked why god created the devil. You said it is not our place to question god. This dismisses the question without actually addressing its substance.

Obviously I will never stop questioning god, so telling me not to makes less sense than giving me a decent answer. That is, assuming you have one.

Well the answer consists of two parts, the first part is that if you are someone who believes in God’s existence, if you are someone who believes in his names, attributes and qualities then you don’t need to ask this question, the moment you ask it means you don’t have faith in what you believed.
While I agree that religious people generally don't question their god, I openly admit I don't have faith. How does that answer the question?

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Second part, which I am not sure if I understood your question well, I think you are asking about the wisdoms behind this act (El Hekma) why he did this, well we as humans can’t discover all the wisdoms behind God’s acts, I explained that before you may refer to my previous posts.
The problem here is that wisdom is assumed on god's behalf when all appearances suggest otherwise.

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However I as AbdulAziz can give you with some reasons. First of all if God didn’t create the devils we wouldn’t know who is siding with God and who is siding with the devil and based on this the reward he/she may receive.
You can't side with the devil if he doesn't exist. And not siding with god doesn't have to mean siding with the devil.

If god = 1, lack of god is 0. (devil = -1)

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Another reason without the devil, atheists wouldn’t deny the existence of God, without devil there will not be Muslims!
So god wanted atheists to dismiss him as fantasy?

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Without the devils and the fact that he encourages human being to do bad deeds you wouldn’t appreciate the good deeds, as they say you cannot appreciate the beauty of day if there was no darkness.
Couldn't god have made our minds appreciate absolute value instead of relative value?

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for example we know Allah is creator because he created us
blatantly circular...

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Without the devil we wouldn’t know the names of almighty God, [...] if the devil wasn’t created we wouldn’t learn.
Wat.
God can't teach us his name?
Education is the devil's work?

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I know you might ask why Allah want his servants to fight for him, submit their will, worship him…etc well he doesn’t need them Allah is perfect without us, he is perfect with us, he is Always perfect. However for example if I am great king, I know I am perfect and great, however what is better to be king or to have kingdom, billions of servants, billions of…etc another example, if I am a great painter, the perfect painter, it’s always better to have beautiful painting instead of just calling myself a great painter. Hope I didn’t fail in answering your question.

A kingdom benefits the king because he profits off his servants (power is a means to self benefit). A painter gains self-respect by having many followers (external recognition strengthens his positive perception of himself). Both strike me as lowly human psychological needs. If god needs to be reaffirmed, he is not self confident. If he benefits, he is not all powerful.  :)


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I guess I grasped what you are trying to say. You should know that actions are related to two things, one from God’s view (I don’t know how to use the exact world to translate what I want to say) and the other is from the Human’s view. For example it’s God that allowed a certain thing to happen say for example that I kill a human being, from the humans or my point of view this action is wrong and the result for me is wrong so I shouldn’t be happy about it and I should change it and don’t give up saying it’s what God willed because God already told us what God likes and dislikes. However from God’s view when he allowed such act its not totally evil, he might allowed my killing to give chance for other humans to be brave to help the innocent, to take me to justice, to show people the result of bad deeds…etc there can be thousands other good reasons compared to the one seeming bad act. For example, we sometimes hate to take medicine but because we know the many advantages of this medicine we take it. I wish I did understand your question well if not please can you explain in another way.
I was talking about nature killing and torturing innocent children. Consider fatal and rampant diseases that inflict pain before killing newborn babies. This is not an act of man.

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how can you say they consider it false? Is this just flat out denial on your end? 

There are many websites I posted in my previous posts that quotes saying of great scientiests that’s refusing the idea, for example you can read http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml and you can read hundreds of articles here http://www.harunyahya.com/en.m_categorie_76.php the man have great awareness about them. However if you mean a specefic dedicated self-approved organization it’s something else.

Do you acknowledge that the scientific community is as unanimous as it can possibly get when it is including the whole world?

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The Quran is in agreement with most known scientific fact and does not contradict any known ones
It agrees with most facts and all known ones? Wat.

Scientific theory has a scientific meaning and a layman's meaning. Scientists use theory to describe something that has been confirmed. The theory of gravity has been confirmed or it would not be a theory. Laymen generally use the word "theory" when they should say "hypothesis", which means it is unconfirmed.

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I will post numerous quotes from the scientific community regarding the nature and the origins of the Quran. French physician Maurice Bucaille said: “Our knowledge of these disciplines is such that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Quran could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times”. Keith L. Moore said: “It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.” Tejatet Tejasen said: “From my studies and what I have learnt at this conference I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran 1400 years ago must be true. That can be proved through the scientific way". E. Marshal Johnson said: “The Quran describes not only the development of external form but emphasizes also the internal stages -- the stages inside the embryo of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science... If I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described... I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved..."  T.V.N. Persaud said: “Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He couldn’t read, didn’t know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate... we’re talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature... I personally can’t see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements". What I am trying to say established fact that was proved can never contradicts Quran or Allah.
This is someone's opinion about interpreting something retroactively. That is 3 compounded mistakes.

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God exerts 0 detectable influences on the human race in any and all demonstrable forms. Both induction and common sense tells us that the only things that have no influence are things that do not exist.

I didn’t understand the question, can you please rephrase it if you don’t mind. Thanks in advance
God pretends not to exist perfectly. He can't be physically seen, he can't be physically felt, he can't be physically heard, he can't be physically smelled, he can't be physically tasted, he's never violated his own laws of nature, he doesn't respond to prayer (at least not when humans are conducting statistical studies), he doesn't do anything to make us think he is there.

There is one exception that is wrongly attributed to him, and that is emotional fulfillment. Praying to him makes people feel better, but that is fallacious because it would still happen if he didn't exist (which is demonstrated by a variety of religions yielding the same spiritual/emotional results). In short, he gives us no demonstrable reasons to think he is there.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: AbdulAziz Proving The Existence Of God
« Reply #149 on: July 14, 2011, 01:27:02 AM »
Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom God has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.


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If it is the word of an infalliable omnipotent and omnicient being then it has to get EVERYTHING right. Accidentally sort of coming close to reality sometimes is not good enough.

True, if words written by God it should never contradict established facts, if there is one contradiction then it’s not a word of God for God’s words can never contradict itself or scientific facts. How can it contradict when the one created the universe and the one who said the words are the same, contradictions happens among those non-perfect beings.

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For you.

What I believe he means here is that your god exerts no influence on the universe that we can detect, and only things which do no not exists exert no influence.

Thanks Demouse, I prefer to wait for him to confirm what you explained, once he do so I will comment.

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You are comparing God to Mortal Kings.  You can't do that.  The power of mortal Kings to have servants is beyond the power of God.
I think it is YOU who do not understand Allah.

I am not comparing, I am giving you examples among us humans who is considered to be better X or Y. There is a rule or base I don’t know the proper word but we use the Arabic word “قاعدة" that any draw-back in the creatures logically the God should be even more far from having it, and any perfection quality in the creature the God should have it as perfect with no draw back. To explain what I am saying I will give you example, for example having the power, the ability to see, hear…etc those are considered positive qualities and we know if a creature does have this is more perfect than those who don’t. Meaning if you LordDave have eyes, you can see…etc and I was blind, I can’t see your body’s perfection is more than me, we are not equal. So any perfection approved among us the God have it as the perfect with no drawback, same thing goes for the non-perfect qualities. For example being blind, not having hands, can’t talk those who are drawbacks so naturally the God should be even more far from not having them. Why? Because the God we talk about in Islam (Allah) have all Perfections in everything. Another example if you can write books and you can only write 10 beautiful books and 1000 beautiful words while I can write 10000 books and 1000000 beautiful words, my ability in words is greater than yours! However it’s not yet perfect and not unlimited, but for God he is perfect and unlimited, Allah said in the Quran:

Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid.

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Oh and a King can address his people without servants.  A King has Television and mass media.  You want us to believe God has such power yet he is merciful and wise so he uses an angel to speak to a man and wait for that message to be delivered to the people of the world all the while billions of souls are lost to Hell for not hearing the word of Mohommed who claims to be speaking for Gabriel, who claims to be speaking for God?

I really mean no harm Lorddave and please don’t get me wrong but it seems you are failing to understand the concept of “Perfection” or it might be I who is failing to explain it to you, sometimes I wished if I could be as great in English as I am in Arabic. Even though there are countless names and qualities for Allah, in Islam alone we can give you around 99 names of Allah. For example if your weight was 500 Kg I can’t say you are fat and thin at the same time, you are either fat or you are thin. If you are dying it doesn’t match you call yourself immortal, when you name yourself as the immortal that means you don’t die, it would be stupid to even ask you, can you die? It’s like asking a dead person, are you alive? Or asking a living person are you dead? The question itself is not suitable, same thing for god, since he is the creator he cannot be asked who created you, since he is the immortal he cannot be asked when you will die…etc Now we know God is All-Just when I say All-Just he is perfect in his justice, he is not siding with one side…etc so he doesn’t punish those who didn’t hear about Islam and Mohammed to hell, Allah may punish them if they heard about Islam, Allah and his Prophet yet they deny their existence, they don’t obey their words, it’s when they deserve to be punished, reasons for that I already explained in my post Ethic’s reward and I discussed this several times before.

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If I were to say that Gabriel has given me a message from God last night to say to you, would you not doubt me?  What proof could I offer besides what you have offered?
 You would question why God did not speak to you directly would you not?

And so do I.

Your statement above just proves you don’t understand the perfection of God, now if you claimed that God talked to you and gave you message you deliver to human I would immediately say you are a liar or the god who gave you the message is a false god not the true one and only Mighty God Allah. Why is that? I will explain. God is perfect, God doesn’t lie…etc now if he sent someone like you who insult others, having some manner issues, liar…etc that means God didn’t know to select the right messenger, instead of sending a perfect messenger he sent someone having many mistakes. While Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him was the perfect human being, he never lied even before he deliver the message of god, his qualities was best which was accepted by his enemies as the best…etc so if God selected someone as Prophet Mohammed as his messenger is pure logic, it just proves his wisdom, his greatness and the greatness of his messengers. It’s well known through history and accepted by all just people that the Prophets of Allah (Mohammed, Ibraheem , Jesus, Moses, …etc) were the greatest humans who set their foot on earth. History can prove they had the best qualities you and me are nothing compared to their qualities.

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By your own words, if you create something then you must possess that ability.

What that supposed to mean? I didn’t get your point.

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Also: Who are you to question God's will?  You claim that his will is unknown yet here you are, AGAIN, claiming to know what an all wise being would do.  Are you all wise?  If the all mighty throws us both into Heaven or Hell then who are you to question him?  You are NOTHING!  You are but a mere slave and his will is your bidding.  If he bid you be thrown into Hell with me then his wisdom is beyond your understanding. But you believe otherwise don't you?  You believe you are wiser than God.  You believe you know what God will do because of your definition of Justice even though you have claimed time and time again that we can not imagine what Justice is for God.

You see you are once again repeating the same thing without having knowledge on what you are talking about, Allah said in the Quran:

Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is God Who knows, and ye who know not!

Even though I repeated the same thing many times I will try to explain it to you again. If we both did took the same test, I got 100 and you got 10 and the teacher gave us both A is that fair? It’s not fair, it’s a negative quality in the teacher, as I have explained earlier, if things we see negative among us we should push away that negative quality from God even more! since Allah is All-Justice his name and his great quality and wisdom will not allow such thing happen, I am not claiming I know the wisdom behind all Allah’s acts but I am saying things that are impossible because if it was possible it means God is not perfect, if God explained in a book or a message or anything else and he said oh humans, if you worshipped and me and had faith in me I will take you to heaven and if not I will take you to hell. Now if I worshipped and had faith in Allah then he take me to hell this will prove that Allah is a liar (Glory to Allah he is high above all that they say!- Exalted and Great beyond measure)  it will prove he is not Justice, it proves he is contradicting himself which finally proves he is not Perfect, a God with many bad qualities and such God is a false God not worthy of Worship. Hope this clear the confusion you are having, If you still failed in understanding this I request some of the other members explain to you what I meant because I sincerely don’t know how to explain it in an easier way than this!
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Once more, the net amount of mass/energy in the universe is mathematically zero. Nothing has been 'created' or 'destroyed' merely changed states as is consistent with what we know about quantum physics (See quantum foam and vacuum energy)

Can you explain more about the quantum foam? Is it an established fact! Or it’s just idea! Plus I did found this > Quantum foam is theorized to be created by virtual particles of very high energy? Created?

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Secondly, it is not a sign of Allah's creation but an example of the principle that 'nothing' is unstable, as has been described before.

Just because you cannot see the signs you cannot say it’s not, just because the blind can’t see the sun he shouldn’t deny the existence of the sun :) plus What do you mean nothing is unstable

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I promise you that most of us here understand the Big Bang theory a hell of a lot better than you do with your copypasta.

Thanks for the information, I failed to understand what’s on the net, books…etc so can you please explain to me what you understand about the Big Bang theory?

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Well this is awkward, because the expansion of the universe is not steady, Hubble's observations demonstrate that it is expanding and accelerating.

Can you read Arabic? Because what you said is not contradicting with the verse at all, in fact it supports it.
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Bullshit plain and simple. This is the result of a five-second google, http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/the-evolution-of-the-immune-system/

It seems I have to register to read the article!

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It would be impossible today for a city to survive for long without a fire service and look at all those trucks, men, call centres, satelite uplinks, equipment, fire alarms etc etc etc can we then conclude that New York City and London have always existed as they are today with a fully functioning fire service? Of course not, the fire service has grown in synchronisation with the city to respond to the city's needs, just as a 1940s fire service couldn't hope to keep a modern London safe, so an immune system from 10,000 years ago couldn't protect a modern human.
So are you claiming there was a beginning for the universe? Plus was the first human born adult or infant? How he survived?

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It isn't 'chance' at all! We can accurately simulate golf, buildings, explosions, the movement of planets, the synthesis of protein, the splitting of cells, the movement of water, the expansion of gas, the flow of electricity etc etc because they're all beholden to the phisical proprties of the universe around us!

Before I comment I need to explain more, are you claiming your belief everything into existence came not by chance, accident or there was a cause?

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Thou Can't give what thou does not have.

Do you think there is an answer to the question you are asking? :)

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Well that explains why he can't give me a valid reason for believing in god.

Do you think you will ever find a valid reason for believing in God! If yes why and if not Why ?

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can something exist without being created?

Yes, see: virtual particles and quantum foam.

To put it simply, can Chris come into existence and have life without being created, can another Chris come into existence without being created?  When I read such comments I don’t know why but I immediately remember what Allah said in the Quran:

“They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!”


Crustinator
I already answered your question twice, so that’s not a question I ignored so there is no need to quote it again. Do you want me to give you links to my answers? If yes please let me know
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)