Orlando shooting, thoughts?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #300 on: August 01, 2016, 05:09:58 PM »
Bullwinkle vs dealer, unarmed: Both alive and unscratched, because unarmed Bullwinkle was seen as not a threat.

Bullwinkle vs dealer, armed: one or both of them either injured or dead, as Bullwinkle would have felt compelled to use the weapon and start a fight.

Sounds like a good example to show how guns don't exactly help. Thank you, Bullwinkle, to share your experience with us.

I understand what you are saying.
It was way more dynamic than that.

I saw what was coming and I was powerless to participate in my survival.
He chose to not kill me. His choice. His whim.

I don't want to sound trite, but you really had to be there.


So far, I've lived happily ever after.   :)

Exactly, you're alive. Had you been armed, things would have been different. Even if everything had gone right, you would have killed someone. That's not something I'd want to live with. Do you?


This is not easy to describe.

I would be way more comfortable with him dead than me.

What about both alive and well?



What about rainbows and unicorn farts?

Criminals don't give a shit about their victims.
It's about intimidation, domination and threat.
And, if they're in the mood, they fuckin' kill you.

If you miss your opportunity to thwart and eliminate the attack you must submit.
If you have no desire to protect and defend yourself, don't. It is a choice.

It would suck to kill someone. It would be devastating.
Absolutely, overwhelmingly devastating.

I am not suggesting it would be a proud moment. Far from it.

It would suck worse for my family and friends to bury me
and endure a trial where my killer sits in a rented suit and pretends
to be an alter boy.
 
If one is scared of simple tools, they may freely choose to avoid them.

Their option.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #301 on: August 02, 2016, 12:55:23 AM »
You're alive and didn't have a gun to protect yourself, right? Where's the problem? You both left the scene alive and well, no unicorn needed.

Do you really think criminals aren't human? Thay they wouldn't suffer the same consequences? That they don't have a family and friends who will have to bury them?

Do you think the family of the dealer would like to sit in a trial, hearing you say you killed him in selfdefence?

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #302 on: August 02, 2016, 11:02:04 AM »
Right off the bat that's not true. There was over a million violent crimes and thus a million victims in 2009 alone.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/violent-crime

Which is also not true.

http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html
First, statistics crash course: in many cases you need to analyse millions of incidents. This may as well be impossible, because typically the detailed data isn't available in these situations, as it isn't in this case: you can find a lot of lists of how many crimes occur, but never any details into all of them. And even if that information was available, that's way too many cases to sort through. So, instead, analysts take samples: a sufficiently large random sample ought to give a good indication of the overall behaviour. That's what this study did.

That's what Kleck did in his survey. Yet you scoffed it.

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It's how stats work: it's what the second link did, for that matter.
Secondly, that second link is the definition of a biased source. It gives literally no reason for rejecting the data beyond "It doesn't feel right compared with our agenda," and you just need to look at the data to realise it's a mess. Apparently over five years gun are used barely over twice the rate of the last year. Either there's some serious misremembering going on, or false positives.

The same goes for your side of the argument. Here is some more sources.

http://danaloeschradio.com/anti-gun-group-publishes-rehashes-claim-on-defensive-gun-use

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/02/robert-farago/how-many-dgus-are-there-anyway/

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/09/robert-farago/question-of-the-day-do-unarmed-victims-of-violence-bear-any-responsibility-for-their-attack/#

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Japan has a high suicide rate and they have strict gun control. In fact their suicide rate is higher than ours. As to Australian gun ownership they had around 3 million guns before the ban and roughly the same after.
Japan also literally works people to death, alternative factors are definitely at play. Someone desperate for suicide can take any option: the usual depressive explanation usually involves people essentially making the attempt on the spur of the moment.

Exactly my point. Guns don't enable high suicides, the situation at hand does.

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I'd point out that the requirement for licenses etc, ie gun control, still seems to have worked just fine in Australia.

And I'd point out that violent crime rose, not fall, and even when it did fall it was to its original state.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #303 on: August 02, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
That's what Kleck did in his survey. Yet you scoffed it.

The same goes for your side of the argument. Here is some more sources.
Not entirely sure what the point of those links were. First just quotes things you've already given, so it's pointless. Second was little more than speculation, and irrelevant to the studies we're discussing. Third didn't even give a conclusion and wasn't on the right topic.

Note that in my survey the source of the data was a neutral organisation with no bias: it was the subsequent analysis of this data which justified their point of view, but those writing up the study had no power over how the data was gained and so no way to influence it.
Far from the case with your link, or with Kleck. Even if you want to argue that the people responsible had a bias, which is far harder to do (no obvious conflicts of interest), you'd need to explain how they could alter data that they had no control over. On the flipside, a study commissioned for the express purpose of refuting another, where the writers had complete control over all data input, is inherently skeevy.

There are all kinds of ways you can influence the data you get. For example, if you survey members of the NRA, you'd get results skewed from what might be the American norm. A little forward planning and thinking about the people you call and there you go. Even just the questions you ask can have an effect. if you want a video link, then have a fun one: maybe a minute of relevant material, and admittedly from a british comedy show and about national service, but it's nonetheless a remarkable example of how easy it is to affect the data you get simply by asking the right questions:


Less serious, sure, but have a lighter hearted break.

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Exactly my point. Guns don't enable high suicides, the situation at hand does.
Did you even read my post? For people that desperately want to commit suicide (from the situation at hand), they'd do anything. That's not everyone. For people who aren't in such a ceaselessly bleak situation, a gun makes suicide the result of a couple of minutes' contemplation rather than a serious, sustained effort.

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And I'd point out that violent crime rose, not fall, and even when it did fall it was to its original state.
It rose with questionable relationship to the gun ban, given that we observed such spikes before the ban as well, and that it fell to a much lower level, and I recall seeing a source that mentioned it falling faster than would have been expected pre-ban.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #304 on: August 02, 2016, 05:16:28 PM »
That's what Kleck did in his survey. Yet you scoffed it.

The same goes for your side of the argument. Here is some more sources.
Not entirely sure what the point of those links were. First just quotes things you've already given, so it's pointless. Second was little more than speculation, and irrelevant to the studies we're discussing. Third didn't even give a conclusion and wasn't on the right topic.

Ok.

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Note that in my survey the source of the data was a neutral organisation with no bias: it was the subsequent analysis of this data which justified their point of view, but those writing up the study had no power over how the data was gained and so no way to influence it.
Far from the case with your link, or with Kleck. Even if you want to argue that the people responsible had a bias, which is far harder to do (no obvious conflicts of interest), you'd need to explain how they could alter data that they had no control over. On the flipside, a study commissioned for the express purpose of refuting another, where the writers had complete control over all data input, is inherently skeevy.

There are all kinds of ways you can influence the data you get. For example, if you survey members of the NRA, you'd get results skewed from what might be the American norm. A little forward planning and thinking about the people you call and there you go. Even just the questions you ask can have an effect. if you want a video link, then have a fun one: maybe a minute of relevant material, and admittedly from a british comedy show and about national service, but it's nonetheless a remarkable example of how easy it is to affect the data you get simply by asking the right questions:


Less serious, sure, but have a lighter hearted break.

This link shows that armed victims are more successful than unarmed victims.

 http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/armed-vs-unarmed-robbery-targets/

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Exactly my point. Guns don't enable high suicides, the situation at hand does.
Did you even read my post? For people that desperately want to commit suicide (from the situation at hand), they'd do anything. That's not everyone. For people who aren't in such a ceaselessly bleak situation, a gun makes suicide the result of a couple of minutes' contemplation rather than a serious, sustained effort.

Our suicide rates isn't due to guns just as Japan's suicide rates isn't due to ropes. People who want to commit suicide will do it by whatever means.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201302/the-gun-suicide-myth

The comments are interesting.

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And I'd point out that violent crime rose, not fall, and even when it did fall it was to its original state.
It rose with questionable relationship to the gun ban, given that we observed such spikes before the ban as well, and that it fell to a much lower level, and I recall seeing a source that mentioned it falling faster than would have been expected pre-ban.

At the same time the gun ownership is rising.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-12/gun-ownership-on-the-rise/3662504
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #305 on: August 02, 2016, 07:43:24 PM »
You're alive and didn't have a gun to protect yourself, right? Where's the problem? You both left the scene alive and well, no unicorn needed.

Do you really think criminals aren't human? Thay they wouldn't suffer the same consequences? That they don't have a family and friends who will have to bury them?

Do you think the family of the dealer would like to sit in a trial, hearing you say you killed him in selfdefence?
Some criminals do what they do because they feel they need to.  Other criminals do what they do because they enjoy it.  If someone ever tries to rob you, tell them you need the money they want to take because it's barely enough to buy food and gas after the rent.  See if they're truly a human and say "oh, sorry, I won't bother you then." 

Quite frankly I doubt most criminals give a crap about their victim or their concerns.

There are criminals who break into homes and actually hope their victims are home so they can beat them down, rape, wreck the place, and just generally completely traumatize someone because they enjoy it.

If someone is trying to break into my home, I will have to assume the latter.  I'll call the police, tell them someone is trying to break in, that I am armed, and that I am fearing for my life, please hurry.  If they don't stop as soon as they're inside, too bad for them.

Will they have friends and family that might be upset, probably.  I'm sorry your friend/relative chose the path they did and no one tried to talk them out of that behavior sooner, but I happen to put my well-being before theirs.

The more criminals that are killed, the better off society is anyway.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #306 on: August 03, 2016, 03:34:24 AM »
You're alive and didn't have a gun to protect yourself, right? Where's the problem? You both left the scene alive and well, no unicorn needed.

Do you really think criminals aren't human? Thay they wouldn't suffer the same consequences? That they don't have a family and friends who will have to bury them?

Do you think the family of the dealer would like to sit in a trial, hearing you say you killed him in selfdefence?
Some criminals do what they do because they feel they need to.  Other criminals do what they do because they enjoy it.  If someone ever tries to rob you, tell them you need the money they want to take because it's barely enough to buy food and gas after the rent.  See if they're truly a human and say "oh, sorry, I won't bother you then." 

Quite frankly I doubt most criminals give a crap about their victim or their concerns.

There are criminals who break into homes and actually hope their victims are home so they can beat them down, rape, wreck the place, and just generally completely traumatize someone because they enjoy it.

If someone is trying to break into my home, I will have to assume the latter.  I'll call the police, tell them someone is trying to break in, that I am armed, and that I am fearing for my life, please hurry.  If they don't stop as soon as they're inside, too bad for them.

Will they have friends and family that might be upset, probably.  I'm sorry your friend/relative chose the path they did and no one tried to talk them out of that behavior sooner, but I happen to put my well-being before theirs.

The more criminals that are killed, the better off society is anyway.

No, dead criminals don't lead to a better society. Spain doesn't have a death sentence, and yet our society is not any more violent than USA's, where criminals are still executed. Of course, that may be because in Spain criminals, unless they're in a organization, are unarmed, and those who have weapons are too busy trying to smuggle drugs. Guns are so rare, that when a band is caught with a couple of handguns and a hunting rifle it makes it in the news. In the USA that's what you can find in any home.

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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #307 on: August 03, 2016, 04:17:06 AM »
This link shows that armed victims are more successful than unarmed victims.

 http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/armed-vs-unarmed-robbery-targets/
That link is no more than an embedded deleted video. Doesn't exactly show anything.
So I'm sticking with my link.

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Did you even read my post? For people that desperately want to commit suicide (from the situation at hand), they'd do anything. That's not everyone. For people who aren't in such a ceaselessly bleak situation, a gun makes suicide the result of a couple of minutes' contemplation rather than a serious, sustained effort.
Our suicide rates isn't due to guns just as Japan's suicide rates isn't due to ropes. People who want to commit suicide will do it by whatever means.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201302/the-gun-suicide-myth

The comments are interesting.
Comments on the internet don't mean much. Are you going to respond to what I'm actually saying, or are you just going to keep asserting the same thing over and over?
Even your link said exactly what I'm, saying: if someone's determined to do it, they can commit suicide. However, the accessibility of guns lowers the threshold of 'determined': rather than needing to make a sustained effort with the chance of someone finding and calling 911, they need, what, thirty seconds?

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At the same time the gun ownership is rising.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-12/gun-ownership-on-the-rise/3662504
Which is a) acknowledged as a problem, and b) still with gun control in effect. With a licensing system you'd expect it to rise anyway; more time means more people can get a license.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #308 on: August 03, 2016, 09:44:12 AM »
This link shows that armed victims are more successful than unarmed victims.

 http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/armed-vs-unarmed-robbery-targets/
That link is no more than an embedded deleted video. Doesn't exactly show anything.
So I'm sticking with my link.

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Did you even read my post? For people that desperately want to commit suicide (from the situation at hand), they'd do anything. That's not everyone. For people who aren't in such a ceaselessly bleak situation, a gun makes suicide the result of a couple of minutes' contemplation rather than a serious, sustained effort.
Our suicide rates isn't due to guns just as Japan's suicide rates isn't due to ropes. People who want to commit suicide will do it by whatever means.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201302/the-gun-suicide-myth

The comments are interesting.
Comments on the internet don't mean much. Are you going to respond to what I'm actually saying, or are you just going to keep asserting the same thing over and over?
Even your link said exactly what I'm, saying: if someone's determined to do it, they can commit suicide. However, the accessibility of guns lowers the threshold of 'determined': rather than needing to make a sustained effort with the chance of someone finding and calling 911, they need, what, thirty seconds?

I won't deny that guns do make for a quick death but if guns are enabling more suicides then we would have more than Japan. Not only that but in Australia suicide by gun went down but suicide by other means went up. Besides, as heartless as this sounds taking your own life is your own business. I don't see why I need to give up my right to firearms just for those who would kill themselves by any means. Even if you say that we should force everyone to keep guns in safes (a) how are you going to enforce that without violating other rights listed in the constitution and (b) even if your successful, from what I recall the US consider a spur of the moment decision to commit suicide is about five to ten minutes. You can open a safe well within five minutes.

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At the same time the gun ownership is rising.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-12/gun-ownership-on-the-rise/3662504
Which is a) acknowledged as a problem, and b) still with gun control in effect. With a licensing system you'd expect it to rise anyway; more time means more people can get a license.

My point is its not the number of guns that's rose the crime rate.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #309 on: August 03, 2016, 10:18:43 AM »
I won't deny that guns do make for a quick death but if guns are enabling more suicides then we would have more than Japan. Not only that but in Australia suicide by gun went down but suicide by other means went up. Besides, as heartless as this sounds taking your own life is your own business. I don't see why I need to give up my right to firearms just for those who would kill themselves by any means. Even if you say that we should force everyone to keep guns in safes (a) how are you going to enforce that without violating other rights listed in the constitution and (b) even if your successful, from what I recall the US consider a spur of the moment decision to commit suicide is about five to ten minutes. You can open a safe well within five minutes.
No, that's not how anything works. There are two things that are required for suicide. if you want to write it mathematically, M+A=S. Motive plus ability gives suicide. If there's less motive, you'd only go for more accessible methods. If there's more motive, you'd be happier even doing things that need a major exertion. So in places like Japan, where there's more motive, ability isn't as key. In places like the US, where A skyrockets, people would need far less motive. It's connected. Just because Japan has more doesn't really matter because it's a fundamentally different environment. you can't focus on A and ignore M, both play a part.
And, yes, you should give up your quotation-marks-emphasised 'right' if it benefits no one and increases the rate of suicide and the like. Something like that should not be considered a right. Free speech is a right, freedom of expression, freedom of choice... They're rights. Being able to easily get a weapon with no purpose beyond killing is not a right.

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My point is its not the number of guns that's rose the crime rate.
And yet the crime rate's fallen since the gun control legislation, rather than risen as you'd expect if guns were somehow preventative, and seems to be falling faster than we would have expected beforehand. So, maybe making guns less accessible actually helps stop criminals getting ahold of them, who'd have thought?
Even if gun ownership increases, compare that with population growth, and remember the substantial difficulties in getting a gun, and note that there is worry about what that would entail. It's not a happy ending if it's still ongoing.

There are a whole host of changes that could be made to the US, and given you've had a whole amendment repealed before now it's perfectly justifiable to propose alterations to the second. That's what amendments are for. That's how your system fundamentally works. Propose people pass mental health checks, background checks etc before they get a gun. Scrap the Dickey Amendment, which in practise prevents neutral organisations from studying and possibly aiding with gun violence. Let organisations like the ATF use databases to actually keep track of guns sold so they can, you know, do their job. Make mandatory learning about and following basic safety measures. Limit the weapons made accessible.
And this is all minor: likely wouldn't even touch what the second amendment covers. You can still keep and bear arms if you want to, there are just common sense limitations, like there are for even freedom of religion: you can practise whatever religion you want so long as it doesn't feature a tenet that hurts others, like sacrifice. There are always common sense caveats.

But really, this all comes down to one simple question: why do you want a gun?
Because it's your right doesn't mean anything alone. There should be a reason for it to be considered a right: there is for everything else considered a right.
Does it help you? Well, no, we've seen it doesn't. No advantage when it comes to preventing crime, at-home or otherwise, according to a neutral source and neutral numbers. As far as preventing a tyrannical government goes, you'd be thoroughly outgunned regardless because we don't live in the time of when the second amendment was written: the best armaments are not handheld.
There is no actual benefit to having a gun. End of. Your best-case stats agree; the best you could argue from them would be that gun control doesn't decrease crime, as there was certainly no statistically relevant increase. At this stage your only recourse, of the points you've brought up, seems to be to point at the recreational uses. If you want to do that, fine, but a) typically you wouldn't need to have it at your house, pick it up at a shooting range or whatever like you would with bowling, and b) hardly raises it to the calibre of a right.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #310 on: August 03, 2016, 04:36:44 PM »
I won't deny that guns do make for a quick death but if guns are enabling more suicides then we would have more than Japan. Not only that but in Australia suicide by gun went down but suicide by other means went up. Besides, as heartless as this sounds taking your own life is your own business. I don't see why I need to give up my right to firearms just for those who would kill themselves by any means. Even if you say that we should force everyone to keep guns in safes (a) how are you going to enforce that without violating other rights listed in the constitution and (b) even if your successful, from what I recall the US consider a spur of the moment decision to commit suicide is about five to ten minutes. You can open a safe well within five minutes.
No, that's not how anything works. There are two things that are required for suicide. if you want to write it mathematically, M+A=S. Motive plus ability gives suicide. If there's less motive, you'd only go for more accessible methods. If there's more motive, you'd be happier even doing things that need a major exertion. So in places like Japan, where there's more motive, ability isn't as key. In places like the US, where A skyrockets, people would need far less motive. It's connected. Just because Japan has more doesn't really matter because it's a fundamentally different environment. you can't focus on A and ignore M, both play a part.
And, yes, you should give up your quotation-marks-emphasised 'right' if it benefits no one and increases the rate of suicide and the like. Something like that should not be considered a right. Free speech is a right, freedom of expression, freedom of choice... They're rights. Being able to easily get a weapon with no purpose beyond killing is not a right.

According to the CDC men are more likely to kill themselves with guns but women are more likely to use poision.

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-a.pdf

This link shows that mental illness is the main cause of suicides not impulsive suicides.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-causes.html


This link shows that even within the impulsive suivide attempts a violent method (which I'll assume guns are a violent method) is not what is chosen.

https://msrc.fsu.edu/system/files/Simon%20et%20al%202001%20Characteristics%20of%20impulsive%20suicide%20attempts%20and%20attempters.pdf

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My point is its not the number of guns that's rose the crime rate.
And yet the crime rate's fallen since the gun control legislation, rather than risen as you'd expect if guns were somehow preventative, and seems to be falling faster than we would have expected beforehand. So, maybe making guns less accessible actually helps stop criminals getting ahold of them, who'd have thought?
Even if gun ownership increases, compare that with population growth, and remember the substantial difficulties in getting a gun, and note that there is worry about what that would entail. It's not a happy ending if it's still ongoing.

What I found out is that the crime rate was already falling to begin with.


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There are a whole host of changes that could be made to the US, and given you've had a whole amendment repealed before now it's perfectly justifiable to propose alterations to the second. That's what amendments are for. That's how your system fundamentally works. Propose people pass mental health checks, background checks etc before they get a gun. Scrap the Dickey Amendment, which in practise prevents neutral organisations from studying and possibly aiding with gun violence. Let organisations like the ATF use databases to actually keep track of guns sold so they can, you know, do their job. Make mandatory learning about and following basic safety measures. Limit the weapons made accessible.
And this is all minor: likely wouldn't even touch what the second amendment covers. You can still keep and bear arms if you want to, there are just common sense limitations, like there are for even freedom of religion: you can practise whatever religion you want so long as it doesn't feature a tenet that hurts others, like sacrifice. There are always common sense caveats.

All of which violates the bill of rights.

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But really, this all comes down to one simple question: why do you want a gun?

Yes.

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Because it's your right doesn't mean anything alone. There should be a reason for it to be considered a right: there is for everything else considered a right.
Does it help you? Well, no, we've seen it doesn't. No advantage when it comes to preventing crime, at-home or otherwise, according to a neutral source and neutral numbers. As far as preventing a tyrannical government goes, you'd be thoroughly outgunned regardless because we don't live in the time of when the second amendment was written: the best armaments are not handheld.
There is no actual benefit to having a gun. End of. Your best-case stats agree; the best you could argue from them would be that gun control doesn't decrease crime, as there was certainly no statistically relevant increase. At this stage your only recourse, of the points you've brought up, seems to be to point at the recreational uses. If you want to do that, fine, but a) typically you wouldn't need to have it at your house, pick it up at a shooting range or whatever like you would with bowling, and b) hardly raises it to the calibre of a right.
I've shown many times that guns do help even using your own sources. Also as a side note this link shows that in Australia people switched from guns to hanging when it came to suicides.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12882416/
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #311 on: August 03, 2016, 05:02:25 PM »
According to the CDC men are more likely to kill themselves with guns but women are more likely to use poision.
This link shows that mental illness is the main cause of suicides not impulsive suicides.
Also as a side note this link shows that in Australia people switched from guns to hanging when it came to suicides.
This link shows that even within the impulsive suivide attempts a violent method (which I'll assume guns are a violent method) is not what is chosen.
None of which even approached a contradiction to what I've been saying. Besides, mental illness and impulsive suicides aren't mutually exclusive, mental illness doesn't translate to "Wants to die 100% of the time." As for the last point, I would genuinely love to hear how you plan to ask someone how long they planned to commit suicide after they've shot themselves, firearms having a higher success rate. The results are naturally skewed.

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What I found out is that the crime rate was already falling to begin with.
I've shown many times that guns do help even using your own sources.
Former doesn't contradict anything, and given it continued to fall at the same or greater rate, plainly guns offered no benefit. And at no point have you shown guns helped: my main source on this result you've done nothing but ignore and post up a flawed and biased study, offering no defence of it when those flaws were pointed out.
Neutral and wide-ranging stats are always going to mean more than specifically targeted surveys from a source with a bias, end of.

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All of which violates the bill of rights.
If your bill of rights violates common sense, that's probably a good thing.
There are always going to be caveats. Take my freedom of religion example: the first amendment prohibits any limitation of the free exercise of religion, but plainly you can't get away with a crime just because it's done in the name of a religion. The multiple belief systems throughout history that advocate human and animal sacrifice are a good example: the USA specifically limits the latter, and outright forbids the former. So, turns out you can prohibit the free exercise of religion.
How does it infringe upon someone's right to keep and bear arms to allow the ATF to have a database of what guns are sold where, or to allow the CDC to investigate gun violence? Both of those things are effectively prohibited in the US.
How does it infringe on someone's rights to keep and bear arms for them to have a bit of training first? Nothing prevents them from getting the gun whatsoever. If, as the amendment states, the purpose is the formation of a militia, this ought to be perfectly in line with it.
And of course, note that it does not specify 'all arms.'
Plenty of gun control is fine even taking into account the second amendment. Allow honest study, allow law enforcement agencies to do their jobs, ensure people actually know how to use a gun safely, and have consequences if they use a gun improperly. None of that prevents someone from keeping and bearing arms.
And then there are the common-sense caveats. Eg: convicts. Would you propose we arm prisoners simply because their right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, or is there a bit of common sense at play too?
And all that's assuming the amendment's immutable, which it isn't.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #312 on: August 04, 2016, 01:55:57 AM »
You're alive and didn't have a gun to protect yourself, right? Where's the problem? You both left the scene alive and well, no unicorn needed.

Do you really think criminals aren't human? Thay they wouldn't suffer the same consequences? That they don't have a family and friends who will have to bury them?

Do you think the family of the dealer would like to sit in a trial, hearing you say you killed him in selfdefence?

Going down the list.

1. He is trying to say it was not under his power or choice. It was the criminal. Yes things would have been different if he had a gun, but he would have had a chance to make his own future and decision. Maybe he would suck under pressure, maybe suck with a gun or both and get himself killed. Or maybe he will be a Billy bad ass, either way, it was him making his decisions and making his own future. Instead of relying on the criminal's decision, just like things would have been different if he had a gun, the same difference would have happened if the criminal had decided it was his time to die. Either being scared, pumped up, or some people just like to kill others for shits and giggles.

2 and 3. Some are no longer human, some are. This is a case by case basis. In my opinion, if the moral compass, conscience, compassion, care or respect of another human etc has left, been destroyed, or was never there in the first place, they cease to be a human. This criminal that he came across was more than likely human still making bad decisions, thus why he did not pull the trigger. However, he could have just as likely been a non human that would have pulled it to watch what happened.

Either way, it was the criminal making the actions and decisions. For every action there is a consequence, could be good or bad. If one of my boys was saving peoples lives and someone shot him just because, I would hunt them down and end their existence.

However, if he was robbing a liquor store, armed, threatening people and so forth and he was shot doing such a thing. I would still mourn him ,miss him dearly and never be the same, but I would not hate the person whom shot him. I would understand, would not be pleasant, but I would still understand.

I feel any family whom is capable of rational thought would feel the same.


My first place was horrible, absolutely horrible. Beautiful area, last house in a park, but at night, horrible because it was that last house (I understood later why it was so cheap and available). I had about 15 or so confrontations ranging from simple trespassing to full blown attempted armed invasions. Reactions were slow at first, but grew with time to as close to automation as possible, you learn alot about yourself how you react in a life and death situation.

Any ways, point being, I never chose to kill anyone, even though in Texas, in about 7 of the mentioned situations, with castle law I could have without facing consequence. Even though if all other options were removed I would have, but Fortunately, was able to use words with the combination of fire arm enforcement.

Not all firearm situations have to result in someone's death, or even a single shot fired.

It seems to me you are being short sited and biased to reinforce your views.

I have never seen the big deal with the "good guy" not wanting to be the underdog.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 02:03:48 AM by Babyhighspeed »
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #313 on: August 04, 2016, 04:48:02 AM »
You're alive and didn't have a gun to protect yourself, right? Where's the problem? You both left the scene alive and well, no unicorn needed.

Do you really think criminals aren't human? Thay they wouldn't suffer the same consequences? That they don't have a family and friends who will have to bury them?

Do you think the family of the dealer would like to sit in a trial, hearing you say you killed him in selfdefence?

Going down the list.

1. He is trying to say it was not under his power or choice. It was the criminal. Yes things would have been different if he had a gun, but he would have had a chance to make his own future and decision. Maybe he would suck under pressure, maybe suck with a gun or both and get himself killed. Or maybe he will be a Billy bad ass, either way, it was him making his decisions and making his own future. Instead of relying on the criminal's decision, just like things would have been different if he had a gun, the same difference would have happened if the criminal had decided it was his time to die. Either being scared, pumped up, or some people just like to kill others for shits and giggles.

2 and 3. Some are no longer human, some are. This is a case by case basis. In my opinion, if the moral compass, conscience, compassion, care or respect of another human etc has left, been destroyed, or was never there in the first place, they cease to be a human. This criminal that he came across was more than likely human still making bad decisions, thus why he did not pull the trigger. However, he could have just as likely been a non human that would have pulled it to watch what happened.

Either way, it was the criminal making the actions and decisions. For every action there is a consequence, could be good or bad. If one of my boys was saving peoples lives and someone shot him just because, I would hunt them down and end their existence.

However, if he was robbing a liquor store, armed, threatening people and so forth and he was shot doing such a thing. I would still mourn him ,miss him dearly and never be the same, but I would not hate the person whom shot him. I would understand, would not be pleasant, but I would still understand.

I feel any family whom is capable of rational thought would feel the same.


My first place was horrible, absolutely horrible. Beautiful area, last house in a park, but at night, horrible because it was that last house (I understood later why it was so cheap and available). I had about 15 or so confrontations ranging from simple trespassing to full blown attempted armed invasions. Reactions were slow at first, but grew with time to as close to automation as possible, you learn alot about yourself how you react in a life and death situation.

Any ways, point being, I never chose to kill anyone, even though in Texas, in about 7 of the mentioned situations, with castle law I could have without facing consequence. Even though if all other options were removed I would have, but Fortunately, was able to use words with the combination of fire arm enforcement.

Not all firearm situations have to result in someone's death, or even a single shot fired.

It seems to me you are being short sited and biased to reinforce your views.

I have never seen the big deal with the "good guy" not wanting to be the underdog.

So what if it wasn't his decision? We're ALWAYS at the hands of others. We're a society, not isolated individuals. And if he had a gun and had the time and preparation to shoot, the other person's life would have been in his hands. With the situation reversed, Bullwinkle wouldn't be the "good guy" anymore. He has stated he would have shot, and maybe killed, the dealer. The dealer did no such thing. Who's human and who isn't, now? Which leads us to the second point. How can you deny humanity to someone else? By saying they're not human, you're stripping them of human rights and allowing their murder. It's horrible and, by your own standards, makes you equally inhuman, even if you won't be the one pulling the trigger.

I'm not being naive and saying we should all hold hands and sing together. I live in a country where not a decade ago there was a terrorist group operating nationwide. People who would shoot a politician in the face and blow up an entire mall to make themselves heard. Go back in time a little more and you'll find we had several terrorist groups operating at the same time, everywhere, almost daily. But, you know what? Killing them is not the solution. It doesn't solve anything. It only creates more monsters.


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Bom Tishop

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #314 on: August 04, 2016, 11:32:43 AM »

So what if it wasn't his decision? We're ALWAYS at the hands of others. We're a society, not isolated individuals. And if he had a gun and had the time and preparation to shoot, the other person's life would have been in his hands. With the situation reversed, Bullwinkle wouldn't be the "good guy" anymore. He has stated he would have shot, and maybe killed, the dealer. The dealer did no such thing. Who's human and who isn't, now? Which leads us to the second point. How can you deny humanity to someone else? By saying they're not human, you're stripping them of human rights and allowing their murder. It's horrible and, by your own standards, makes you equally inhuman, even if you won't be the one pulling the trigger.

I'm not being naive and saying we should all hold hands and sing together. I live in a country where not a decade ago there was a terrorist group operating nationwide. People who would shoot a politician in the face and blow up an entire mall to make themselves heard. Go back in time a little more and you'll find we had several terrorist groups operating at the same time, everywhere, almost daily. But, you know what? Killing them is not the solution. It doesn't solve anything. It only creates more monsters.

Well I don't know the exact situation Bullwinkle was in. If I saw a guy running with a gun I certainly would not shoot the person. I would prepare myself to draw my firearm. Then if I felt threatened I would draw it to let him know to run the other way. However, if he began to aim at me, I surely would shoot him. That is not taking away someone's humanity, that is a reaction to someone's action. They are being held accountable. The situation would not even exist if it was not for their actions.

Just because I think some people have lost their humanity in my eyes, I said no such thing about killing anyone whom I judge to be in this situation, so let's not add context. I pray for them to regain what they lost, and if they present no harm to others or myself, then let them be and exist. I do not believe in any unnecessary loss of life, I hate it.

However, if someone is threatening my friends, family, my own, or even someone I do not know safety or overall life then it becomes jungle rules. Just the way it is, and I will become much more ruthless if it is another being threatened instead of just myself. I make no apologies for this.

People make decisions, they do drugs and jump off a building thinking they can fly..it is horrible, but it was their choice. Just like a guy who would threaten me, family, friends, or someone in my general area...it was that person's choice, I hope it can be ended diplomatically, but if push comes to shove, it will be them first. Sucks, but at the end, THEY caused it, sometimes they might get the upper hand, other times they are turned to a statistic. Part of rolling the dice like that.

Though it should be obvious I am not a shoot em up type of person, if I was could have at least shot or possibly killed legally 7 different people yet I have none.

I just have no problem bring prepared for the worst and hoping for the best. Just like in business and all other facets of my life, I try and hold the upper hand. To me..what could be more important than trying to have the upper hand when dealing with protecting your life or anothers?
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #315 on: August 04, 2016, 12:32:50 PM »
According to the CDC men are more likely to kill themselves with guns but women are more likely to use poision.
This link shows that mental illness is the main cause of suicides not impulsive suicides.
Also as a side note this link shows that in Australia people switched from guns to hanging when it came to suicides.
This link shows that even within the impulsive suivide attempts a violent method (which I'll assume guns are a violent method) is not what is chosen.
None of which even approached a contradiction to what I've been saying. Besides, mental illness and impulsive suicides aren't mutually exclusive, mental illness doesn't translate to "Wants to die 100% of the time." As for the last point, I would genuinely love to hear how you plan to ask someone how long they planned to commit suicide after they've shot themselves, firearms having a higher success rate. The results are naturally skewed.

As it turns out, head shot with a shotgun just beats cynanide by 2%.

 http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods

And that's only considering one study. Other studies may show that gunshots may be lower. And I doubt even you would call for the ban of shotguns. Would you?

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What I found out is that the crime rate was already falling to begin with.
I've shown many times that guns do help even using your own sources.
Former doesn't contradict anything, and given it continued to fall at the same or greater rate, plainly guns offered no benefit.

Or it shows that guns DID benefit and government meddled with it and caused a temporary spike in crime. For example in Chicago when they finally allowed concealed carry they had the lowest crime rate since ever.

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And at no point have you shown guns helped: my main source on this result you've done nothing but ignore and post up a flawed and biased study, offering no defence of it when those flaws were pointed out.

Even with your own sources there's a slight benifit in owning firearms. And while your source may be in biased their sources was.

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Neutral and wide-ranging stats are always going to mean more than specifically targeted surveys from a source with a bias, end of.

Ok?

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All of which violates the bill of rights.
If your bill of rights violates common sense, that's probably a good thing.

Why should police have the ability to search your home without a warrent?

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There are always going to be caveats. Take my freedom of religion example: the first amendment prohibits any limitation of the free exercise of religion, but plainly you can't get away with a crime just because it's done in the name of a religion.

That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?

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The multiple belief systems throughout history that advocate human and animal sacrifice are a good example: the USA specifically limits the latter, and outright forbids the former. So, turns out you can prohibit the free exercise of religion.

Again, that's because it infringes on the rights of others. Also there's laws against animal cruelty.

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How does it infringe upon someone's right to keep and bear arms to allow the ATF to have a database of what guns are sold where, or to allow the CDC to investigate gun violence?

It's none of the ATF's business. Plus there have been too many cases where registration lead to confiscation of either certain guns or all guns. For example your handgun ban. Before they banned them they had them registered.

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Both of those things are effectively prohibited in the US.
How does it infringe on someone's rights to keep and bear arms for them to have a bit of training first?

Prior restraint to exercise an unalienable right. Do you need to take an English class to post on forums?

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Nothing prevents them from getting the gun whatsoever. If, as the amendment states, the purpose is the formation of a militia, this ought to be perfectly in line with it.
And of course, note that it does not specify 'all arms.'

"The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed".

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Plenty of gun control is fine even taking into account the second amendment. Allow honest study, allow law enforcement agencies to do their jobs, ensure people actually know how to use a gun safely, and have consequences if they use a gun improperly.

I'm fine with punishment of illegal use of a gun. In fact I call for most if not all gun crimes to be punishable by death. After all the idea of threatening people with a gun is "if you don't do what I say then I'm going to kill you". If you cause a negligental then you pay double the cost of repair or hospital bill.

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None of that prevents someone from keeping and bearing arms.

They do however violate other rights.

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And then there are the common-sense caveats. Eg: convicts. Would you propose we arm prisoners simply because their right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, or is there a bit of common sense at play too?
And all that's assuming the amendment's immutable, which it isn't.

It depend on the convict. Non voilent felons should have there gun rights restored. Otherwise if you don't trust them with a firearm then what is he doing out of prison? Either restore ALL rights, keep him in prison, or execute him.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #316 on: August 04, 2016, 12:38:17 PM »
Well I don't know the exact situation Bullwinkle was in. If I saw a guy running with a gun I certainly would not shoot the person. I would prepare myself to draw my firearm. Then if I felt threatened I would draw it to let him know to run the other way. However, if he began to aim at me, I surely would shoot him. That is not taking away someone's humanity, that is a reaction to someone's action. They are being held accountable. The situation would not even exist if it was not for their actions.

Just because I think some people have lost their humanity in my eyes, I said no such thing about killing anyone whom I judge to be in this situation, so let's not add context. I pray for them to regain what they lost, and if they present no harm to others or myself, then let them be and exist. I do not believe in any unnecessary loss of life, I hate it.

However, if someone is threatening my friends, family, my own, or even someone I do not know safety or overall life then it becomes jungle rules. Just the way it is, and I will become much more ruthless if it is another being threatened instead of just myself. I make no apologies for this.

People make decisions, they do drugs and jump off a building thinking they can fly..it is horrible, but it was their choice. Just like a guy who would threaten me, family, friends, or someone in my general area...it was that person's choice, I hope it can be ended diplomatically, but if push comes to shove, it will be them first. Sucks, but at the end, THEY caused it, sometimes they might get the upper hand, other times they are turned to a statistic. Part of rolling the dice like that.

Though it should be obvious I am not a shoot em up type of person, if I was could have at least shot or possibly killed legally 7 different people yet I have none.

I just have no problem bring prepared for the worst and hoping for the best. Just like in business and all other facets of my life, I try and hold the upper hand. To me..what could be more important than trying to have the upper hand when dealing with protecting your life or anothers?

Saying they're not human is assuming they do not have human rights, hence killing them is completely okay. That, coupled with you saying you'd shoot at them (no matter the situation -you may only shoot if he's aiming at you, but you'll pull the trigger nonetheless) is what in turn strips you, using your moral codes, of your own humanity. This set of views puts you above them, making you care less about their lives than others.

I won't ever shoot anyone, even if they put a gun on my mother's temple. I won't kill nor injure. It's not what I want. Such a capital punishment is something I can't endorse. It's not what my mother would like me to do. If I can get away with words and making myself as non-threatening as possible, I'll do. If not, well, I guess that will be it. Defending oneself and one's family and being a hero is cool and all that, in films. But we're in the real world, and taking a life will weight on your shoulders till the day you die.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #317 on: August 04, 2016, 12:44:18 PM »
That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?

It puts in grave peril the lives of others, thus violating the right to life.

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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #318 on: August 04, 2016, 01:06:35 PM »
As it turns out, head shot with a shotgun just beats cynanide by 2%.

 http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods

And that's only considering one study. Other studies may show that gunshots may be lower. And I doubt even you would call for the ban of shotguns. Would you?
Consider accessibility, and note how high the pain count is in comparison. You get past 7 before time to die and pain level are low with accessibility still high, and all the top options are guns.
And unless you can give an actual benefit of them, then yeah, I would.

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Or it shows that guns DID benefit and government meddled with it and caused a temporary spike in crime. For example in Chicago when they finally allowed concealed carry they had the lowest crime rate since ever.
Even with your own sources there's a slight benifit in owning firearms. And while your source may be in biased their sources was.
At best that's a one-off example, given that typically no such thing is observed. Concealed/right to carry laws in fact seem to increase the rate of assault, as per a neutral source:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1632599
Further, none of my stats indicate what you claim. There was one situation where guns offered a 0.1% advantage in one specific situation, but I suspect that's well within the standard deviation, so it's really meaningless. Basic statistical knowledge; there's always potential error, 0.1% is not a reasonable difference to draw a conclusion from.

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Why should police have the ability to search your home without a warrent?
Never said they should. Would you have complained that the people who wanted to repeal the 18th amendment didn't also repeal the 13th?

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That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?
Again, that's because it infringes on the rights of others. Also there's laws against animal cruelty.
It's none of the ATF's business. Plus there have been too many cases where registration lead to confiscation of either certain guns or all guns. For example your handgun ban. Before they banned them they had them registered.
Prior restraint to exercise an unalienable right. Do you need to take an English class to post on forums?
Um, the ATF's business is pretty much exactly being able to place an owner to a gun. Remember what the F stands for. And before guns were banned they were legal, a slippery slope is not an argument.
Common sense caveats are not restraint. Would you propose guns be given out for free to avoid 'restraining' the people who can't afford it? Would you suggest handing them out to two year olds regardless of whether their parents have the time or ability to reach them safety, to avoid prior restraint?
The potential danger of posting on a forum is very, very slight. not so much with a gun.

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Nothing prevents them from getting the gun whatsoever. If, as the amendment states, the purpose is the formation of a militia, this ought to be perfectly in line with it.
And of course, note that it does not specify 'all arms.'
"The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed".
So? At no point does it bring up the quality of arms.

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None of that prevents someone from keeping and bearing arms.
They do however violate other rights.
Would love to hear which ones.

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It depend on the convict. Non voilent felons should have there gun rights restored. Otherwise if you don't trust them with a firearm then what is he doing out of prison? Either restore ALL rights, keep him in prison, or execute him.
I specified 'prisoners.' "The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed," your words. I don't see a caveat mentioning that people in prison lose the right, but seems like it's a fair enough common-sense caveat.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #319 on: August 04, 2016, 01:35:54 PM »

Saying they're not human is assuming they do not have human rights, hence killing them is completely okay. That, coupled with you saying you'd shoot at them (no matter the situation -you may only shoot if he's aiming at you, but you'll pull the trigger nonetheless) is what in turn strips you, using your moral codes, of your own humanity. This set of views puts you above them, making you care less about their lives than others.

I won't ever shoot anyone, even if they put a gun on my mother's temple. I won't kill nor injure. It's not what I want. Such a capital punishment is something I can't endorse. It's not what my mother would like me to do. If I can get away with words and making myself as non-threatening as possible, I'll do. If not, well, I guess that will be it. Defending oneself and one's family and being a hero is cool and all that, in films. But we're in the real world, and taking a life will weight on your shoulders till the day you die.
I can respect your way of living here, as I love peace. I will say, if my life, loved ones life, friend, or even someone I don't know is being threatened by another for sinister reasons. Then yes, their life is less important than the one they are threatening. They have made this decision of action, and an opposite action will ensue. Of course I would love to talk my way out the peaceful way, if I didn't, I would be able to say I have shot some folks. I did not for moral reasons not legal, I wanted to do everything possible before risking the chance of taking another's life. Fortunately it worked.

If you could take watching someone blow your mother's brains on the floor when you had a chance to stop it, then I don't know if you are the most peaceful person I have came across, or insane. I do admire the fact you believe you could accept that, as that does say alot about your love of peace.

I know myself, if I let someone be killed when I had a chance to stop it I would NEVER be ok. Compared to killing someone who was the evil doer..I would come to peace eventually with that

« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 01:37:34 PM by Babyhighspeed »
Quote from: Bom Tishop
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #320 on: August 04, 2016, 06:45:59 PM »
The way I see it, it's not a chance to stop it, it just swaps the victim: my mother, or someone else's son. You can't stop a shooting with a shooting. You or them, there's going to be victims.

You argue that they made the choice to act in a violent way, and as such their life is, quoting your words, "less important". But then you go on and say that you are allowed to respond in an equally violent way. You're doing the same as them. Should we consider your life less important for that?

When you say you'd hunt down whoever hurt your family or friends, can we still consider it a response, or does it turn you into the "less human" attacker?

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #321 on: August 04, 2016, 07:42:33 PM »
That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?

It puts in grave peril the lives of others, thus violating the right to life.

Cars do a better job at it. The mere ownership of a weapon doesn't endanger your life in any way.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #322 on: August 04, 2016, 08:22:36 PM »
As it turns out, head shot with a shotgun just beats cynanide by 2%.

 http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods

And that's only considering one study. Other studies may show that gunshots may be lower. And I doubt even you would call for the ban of shotguns. Would you?
Consider accessibility, and note how high the pain count is in comparison. You get past 7 before time to die and pain level are low with accessibility still high, and all the top options are guns.
And unless you can give an actual benefit of them, then yeah, I would.

Your sentence didn't made much sense. Certain chemicals like bleach is far more accessible than guns and like I said earlier women tend to use chemicals as a means to commit suicide while men a little more than half the time will choose a firearm. As for benifits for a shotgun there's hunting which keeps animal populations from over growing, there's home defense, and there's defense against tyranny. Another thing to consider is by banning guns you affect the police too. They can no longer but from the local gun shop and buy an AR for example and save their department money. In fact it'll affect the manufacturers as well since they can't sell to private citizens which is their bread and butter and therefore can't supply the police and military the arms they need.

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Or it shows that guns DID benefit and government meddled with it and caused a temporary spike in crime. For example in Chicago when they finally allowed concealed carry they had the lowest crime rate since ever.
Even with your own sources there's a slight benifit in owning firearms. And while your source may be in biased their sources was.
At best that's a one-off example, given that typically no such thing is observed. Concealed/right to carry laws in fact seem to increase the rate of assault, as per a neutral source:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1632599
Further, none of my stats indicate what you claim. There was one situation where guns offered a 0.1% advantage in one specific situation, but I suspect that's well within the standard deviation, so it's really meaningless. Basic statistical knowledge; there's always potential error, 0.1% is not a reasonable difference to draw a conclusion from.

Still on average states with right to carry laws are either slightly above or lower in crimes compared to those who didn't had right to carry laws.

http://people.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ%20-%20paper%20example.pdf

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/oct/09/matt-gaetz/violent-crime-lower-states-open-carry/

Also I found this link showing that indeed criminals fear armed citizens more than police.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html

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Why should police have the ability to search your home without a warrent?
Never said they should. Would you have complained that the people who wanted to repeal the 18th amendment didn't also repeal the 13th?

I'm having trouble understanding your statement.

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That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?
Again, that's because it infringes on the rights of others. Also there's laws against animal cruelty.
It's none of the ATF's business. Plus there have been too many cases where registration lead to confiscation of either certain guns or all guns. For example your handgun ban. Before they banned them they had them registered.
Prior restraint to exercise an unalienable right. Do you need to take an English class to post on forums?
Um, the ATF's business is pretty much exactly being able to place an owner to a gun. Remember what the F stands for.

Actually for the most part they shouldn't even exist if they're to follow the constitution.

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And before guns were banned they were legal, a slippery slope is not an argument.

Canada before the ban of all things that look like an AK 47 had there guns registered. Germany before the disarmament of the Jews had all guns registered. Communist Russia before they banned all firearms had their guns registered. Australia before the mandatory but back had all guns registered. California before the ban on so called assault rifles had them registered. I'm not saying that ALL registrations lead to confiscation but it sure helps in that process.

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Common sense caveats are not restraint. Would you propose guns be given out for free to avoid 'restraining' the people who can't afford it?

No because its a product. However denying a person who has money until he passes a BC is prior restraint without due process.

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Would you suggest handing them out to two year olds regardless of whether their parents have the time or ability to reach them safety, to avoid prior restraint?

Children are denied a lot of rights. There's rights are/should be given unto them when they are an adult.

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The potential danger of posting on a forum is very, very slight. not so much with a gun.

The pen is mightier than the sword. The wrong idea drilled into someone's mind can kill millions.
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Nothing prevents them from getting the gun whatsoever. If, as the amendment states, the purpose is the formation of a militia, this ought to be perfectly in line with it.
And of course, note that it does not specify 'all arms.'
"The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed".
So? At no point does it bring up the quality of arms.

If the right to keep and bears are not to be infringed then I'm allowed to own enough weapons to put the US military to shame.

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None of that prevents someone from keeping and bearing arms.
They do however violate other rights.
Would love to hear which ones.

The fourth and fifth amendment for starters.

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It depend on the convict. Non voilent felons should have there gun rights restored. Otherwise if you don't trust them with a firearm then what is he doing out of prison? Either restore ALL rights, keep him in prison, or execute him.
I specified 'prisoners.' "The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed," your words. I don't see a caveat mentioning that people in prison lose the right, but seems like it's a fair enough common-sense caveat.

The constitution gives the caveat in the fifth and sixth amendment about due process.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Bom Tishop

  • 11197
  • Official friend boy of the FES!!
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #323 on: August 04, 2016, 08:46:48 PM »
The way I see it, it's not a chance to stop it, it just swaps the victim: my mother, or someone else's son. You can't stop a shooting with a shooting. You or them, there's going to be victims.

You argue that they made the choice to act in a violent way, and as such their life is, quoting your words, "less important". But then you go on and say that you are allowed to respond in an equally violent way. You're doing the same as them. Should we consider your life less important for that?

When you say you'd hunt down whoever hurt your family or friends, can we still consider it a response, or does it turn you into the "less human" attacker?

Let's say a person has to shoot someone whom is about to murder their sweet mother. Cold blood out of rage or what not. Yes there is a victim either way. Though one person was just minding her own business, not stepping in on anyone's personal God given liberties. Something so simple and easy to follow "don't murder".

The other person is violating this basic of human rights....so you bet damn right if there is going to be a "victim" here, I would do everything in my power to make sure it's not the innocent lady whoms basic right of living and not to be murdered is being put in danger by a selfish bastard.

Even in the eyes of the law, if someone is killed commiting a crime such as robbery, rape, murder etc...the person killed is not considered a victim, still considered an assailant. The person the assailant was violating is still considered a victim.

Granted I would never shoot someone who was just robbing me or someone unless I genuinely thought that person or my own life was in danger. As I don't believe anyone should lose their life over money.

And I wouldn't just hunt someone down for murdering my son or loved one if I could prosecute them through the legal system.

If you want to call me not human for believing in such things that is fine, I will take that. I myself find there is a question for ones humanity if they can watch their own mother, loved one, or anyone be murdered in cold blood when they had a chance to stop it or could stop it, even if it ended in the demise of the assailant. This is something I could never comprehend.

There is a big difference between murder and being killed.

I mean the two men that broke through the garage and into the house when they KNEW people were there...and my wife and kiddo was home with me. If I just set on the couch and let them do what they wanted to do..i could never comprehend that. Maybe they just wanted money,maybe they would rape my wife one at a time while the other held me and my boy up..maybe they were going to kill us all. Only a deranged person will break into a home when there are known occupants. If it was for my alarm beepers in the garage I would have been completely taken off guard.

I will not apologize for protecting my family and for not taking the chance of what a deranged person motives and plans are.

If I LET something happen to my wife at the time or either one of my boys when I could have stopped it. I would end up killing myself over the eventual mental torment and flashbacks.

I mean my dog knocked my youngest in the pool years ago on accident. I was right there with him and turned around for a second and he was only in for maybe a second , but when I heard the splash and turned around. Seeing him floating hopelessly staring at me, that still causes a tear in my eye thinking of that look. Now if I think of that right before a piece of shit is about to take their life, that last moment of life while they look at the man whom was suppose to protect them letting them be murdered. NO FUCKING THANK YOU I will pass on that.

I mean just seeing the fear in my youngest and my wife at the times eyes when I said get in the closet. There was a a gun in there as well and a phone, that was always the plan in emergency for a fall out. Retreat, lock the reinforced door to the closet, call the police, and if they make entry open fire as that means they got past me. Seeing their eyes when I walk in telling them to open up its me, I am fine police got here and took over, everything is good. Just seeing that look in their eyes...no, I could never let anything happen to someone if I could stop it, sorry. I would much rather I be the victim than someone else.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 08:50:54 PM by Babyhighspeed »
Quote from: Bom Tishop
LordDave is quite alright even for a bleeding heart liberal. Godspeed good sir

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #324 on: August 05, 2016, 03:41:19 AM »
That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?

It puts in grave peril the lives of others, thus violating the right to life.

Cars do a better job at it. The mere ownership of a weapon doesn't endanger your life in any way.

Cars are used to go from a place to another, and the deaths caused by cars are accidents. Guns are made specifically to hurt.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #325 on: August 05, 2016, 04:10:21 AM »
Let's say a person has to shoot someone whom is about to murder their sweet mother. Cold blood out of rage or what not. Yes there is a victim either way. Though one person was just minding her own business, not stepping in on anyone's personal God given liberties. Something so simple and easy to follow "don't murder".

The other person is violating this basic of human rights....so you bet damn right if there is going to be a "victim" here, I would do everything in my power to make sure it's not the innocent lady whoms basic right of living and not to be murdered is being put in danger by a selfish bastard.

Even in the eyes of the law, if someone is killed commiting a crime such as robbery, rape, murder etc...the person killed is not considered a victim, still considered an assailant. The person the assailant was violating is still considered a victim.

Granted I would never shoot someone who was just robbing me or someone unless I genuinely thought that person or my own life was in danger. As I don't believe anyone should lose their life over money.

And I wouldn't just hunt someone down for murdering my son or loved one if I could prosecute them through the legal system.

If you want to call me not human for believing in such things that is fine, I will take that. I myself find there is a question for ones humanity if they can watch their own mother, loved one, or anyone be murdered in cold blood when they had a chance to stop it or could stop it, even if it ended in the demise of the assailant. This is something I could never comprehend.

There is a big difference between murder and being killed.

I mean the two men that broke through the garage and into the house when they KNEW people were there...and my wife and kiddo was home with me. If I just set on the couch and let them do what they wanted to do..i could never comprehend that. Maybe they just wanted money,maybe they would rape my wife one at a time while the other held me and my boy up..maybe they were going to kill us all. Only a deranged person will break into a home when there are known occupants. If it was for my alarm beepers in the garage I would have been completely taken off guard.

I will not apologize for protecting my family and for not taking the chance of what a deranged person motives and plans are.

If I LET something happen to my wife at the time or either one of my boys when I could have stopped it. I would end up killing myself over the eventual mental torment and flashbacks.

I mean my dog knocked my youngest in the pool years ago on accident. I was right there with him and turned around for a second and he was only in for maybe a second , but when I heard the splash and turned around. Seeing him floating hopelessly staring at me, that still causes a tear in my eye thinking of that look. Now if I think of that right before a piece of shit is about to take their life, that last moment of life while they look at the man whom was suppose to protect them letting them be murdered. NO FUCKING THANK YOU I will pass on that.

I mean just seeing the fear in my youngest and my wife at the times eyes when I said get in the closet. There was a a gun in there as well and a phone, that was always the plan in emergency for a fall out. Retreat, lock the reinforced door to the closet, call the police, and if they make entry open fire as that means they got past me. Seeing their eyes when I walk in telling them to open up its me, I am fine police got here and took over, everything is good. Just seeing that look in their eyes...no, I could never let anything happen to someone if I could stop it, sorry. I would much rather I be the victim than someone else.

Even if someone is violating human rights, you can't violate theirs. There already are mechanisms of protection in place. You can get into the closet with your family while you wait for the police. From how you describe it, it sounds like you converted it into a safe room. Use it instead of trying to be a hero. A TV, the furniture, the car, everything can be replaced. You can't be. Putting yourself in danger won't help your family.

What is the difference between murdering someone and killing them? You have a gun, you point it at someone, you pull the trigger. There may be legal differences, but those don't exist on our psyque. You shot someone and now they're lying on the floor, dead, because of you.

I guess we've reached a point where both of us know the other's position, and we can't make the other change his mind. You have your view and I have mine. For the record, I won't ever consider you, or anyone else, less human than me. We're all the same, with the same rights and the same duties.

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Rama Set

  • 6877
  • I am also an engineer
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #326 on: August 05, 2016, 04:40:01 AM »


http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/oct/09/matt-gaetz/violent-crime-lower-states-open-carry/

Read you sources.  You look stupid if you don't:

Quote from: politifact.com
This is a fact that experts say is largely meaningless and shouldn’t weigh into any serious policy discussion.

There may be less crime in those states, but there’s no way the single data point Gaetz gave can provide clues as to the effects of open carry laws.

Gaetz’s statement is a one-year snapshot that is misleading. We rate it Half True.

Their conclusion is that the fact that open carry states have less violent crime is largely meaningless and there are other data points to conisder.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #327 on: August 05, 2016, 05:39:02 AM »
Your sentence didn't made much sense. Certain chemicals like bleach is far more accessible than guns and like I said earlier women tend to use chemicals as a means to commit suicide while men a little more than half the time will choose a firearm. As for benifits for a shotgun there's hunting which keeps animal populations from over growing, there's home defense, and there's defense against tyranny. Another thing to consider is by banning guns you affect the police too. They can no longer but from the local gun shop and buy an AR for example and save their department money. In fact it'll affect the manufacturers as well since they can't sell to private citizens which is their bread and butter and therefore can't supply the police and military the arms they need.
Cyanide is not 'certain chemicals.' Remember that we were comparing success rates of suicide.
We've already seen in quite a bit of details that guns give no advantage to home defence, and wouldn't help at all with defence from tyranny. And hunting's actually more likely to make the animal population go out of control; predator-prey systems are naturally in balance. I did a whole module on modelling their behaviour. Start killing the predator, the prey population goes out of control: start killing the prey, predators would seek out other sources of food. If you just want to keep animals out, lock your doors and windows. Or just use a hunting license system, because animals are only an issue in certain places.
Shrinking the gun industry would hardly be the end of the world. In what world is the success of a business more important than lives?

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Still on average states with right to carry laws are either slightly above or lower in crimes compared to those who didn't had right to carry laws.
'Slightly' is meaningless. See: standard deviation, again. Rama put it just fine.

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Actually for the most part they shouldn't even exist if they're to follow the constitution.
Then you really ought to give your constitution a rethink if it hamstrings people investigating shootings. There is a reason for the amendment system.

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I'm not saying that ALL registrations lead to confiscation but it sure helps in that process.
So? A slippery slope isn't an argument. You can't deny common sense measures just because of something that might happen.

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No because its a product. However denying a person who has money until he passes a BC is prior restraint without due process.
Children are denied a lot of rights. There's rights are/should be given unto them when they are an adult.
If the right to keep and bears are not to be infringed then I'm allowed to own enough weapons to put the US military to shame.
The constitution gives the caveat in the fifth and sixth amendment about due process.
So, you agree that the right of people people to keep and bear arms should be infringed in certain cases. For one, people lose this 'right' if they don't have much money, for starters. Doesn't sound much like a right to me.


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None of that prevents someone from keeping and bearing arms.
They do however violate other rights.
Would love to hear which ones.
The fourth and fifth amendment for starters.
I didn't advocate searches and seizures, and didn't propose making anyone testify against themselves, so they really don't seem relevant.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #328 on: August 05, 2016, 01:14:00 PM »
That's because by you committing that crime you infringe on another persons rights. How is me owning certain types of weapons infringe upon your right?

It puts in grave peril the lives of others, thus violating the right to life.

Cars do a better job at it. The mere ownership of a weapon doesn't endanger your life in any way.

Cars are used to go from a place to another, and the deaths caused by cars are accidents. Guns are made specifically to hurt.

This may sound crude but why should that matter? A death is a death either way and by taking guns you only allow people to switch to other means to kill each other. In fact you may even increase it because now the little old lady who before at least had a .38 revolver to give her the best chance of surviving an attack is now exposed to any young punk who's bored and looking for trouble. Besides, hurting someone may actually be a good thing when you're being attacked.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #329 on: August 05, 2016, 02:19:06 PM »
Your sentence didn't made much sense. Certain chemicals like bleach is far more accessible than guns and like I said earlier women tend to use chemicals as a means to commit suicide while men a little more than half the time will choose a firearm. As for benifits for a shotgun there's hunting which keeps animal populations from over growing, there's home defense, and there's defense against tyranny. Another thing to consider is by banning guns you affect the police too. They can no longer but from the local gun shop and buy an AR for example and save their department money. In fact it'll affect the manufacturers as well since they can't sell to private citizens which is their bread and butter and therefore can't supply the police and military the arms they need.
Cyanide is not 'certain chemicals.' Remember that we were comparing success rates of suicide.

Which cyanide is only beaten by shotgun by two percent. If 1% isn't enough to justify self defense then 2% isn't enough to ban guns. When it comes down to it there's either no benefit either way or there's a benefit to owning guns. Either way I win. Why implement a useless law?

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We've already seen in quite a bit of details that guns give no advantage to home defence, and wouldn't help at all with defence from tyranny.

Not quite. How many of the unarmed victims were  attacked a second time compared to the armed victims? How hang of the armed victims was killed compared to unarmed? Plus as I stated before guerrilla warfare, even against modern technology, works. A large portion of the military are civilians and another large portion of the uniformed military would refuse to obey a confiscation.

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And hunting's actually more likely to make the animal population go out of control; predator-prey systems are naturally in balance.

That's the problem. We don't have too many natural predators especially on the east coast.

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I did a whole module on modelling their behaviour. Start killing the predator, the prey population goes out of control: start killing the prey, predators would seek out other sources of food. If you just want to keep animals out, lock your doors and windows. Or just use a hunting license system, because animals are only an issue in certain places.
Shrinking the gun industry would hardly be the end of the world. In what world is the success of a business more important than lives?

Those lives are dependent on the gun industry. Aside from job making without guns are military and police are less affective. Not having an affective military and police leaves us exposed to a more aggressive country.

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Still on average states with right to carry laws are either slightly above or lower in crimes compared to those who didn't had right to carry laws.
'Slightly' is meaningless. See: standard deviation, again. Rama put it just fine.

That was one link about open carry. I've linked to other sites about concealed carry. Here's another example.

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/concealed-carry/
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Actually for the most part they shouldn't even exist if they're to follow the constitution.
Then you really ought to give your constitution a rethink if it hamstrings people investigating shootings. There is a reason for the amendment system.

Its fine to investigate shootings with a proper warrant, but don't assume everybody is guilty until proven innocent.

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I'm not saying that ALL registrations lead to confiscation but it sure helps in that process.
So? A slippery slope isn't an argument. You can't deny common sense measures just because of something that might happen.

They're not common sense and that "might" is more of a "will".

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No because its a product. However denying a person who has money until he passes a BC is prior restraint without due process.
Children are denied a lot of rights. There's rights are/should be given unto them when they are an adult.
If the right to keep and bears are not to be infringed then I'm allowed to own enough weapons to put the US military to shame.
The constitution gives the caveat in the fifth and sixth amendment about due process.
So, you agree that the right of people people to keep and bear arms should be infringed in certain cases. For one, people lose this 'right' if they don't have much money, for starters. Doesn't sound much like a right to me.

They should only be infringed by either due process or if not old enough.

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None of that prevents someone from keeping and bearing arms.
They do however violate other rights.
Would love to hear which ones.
The fourth and fifth amendment for starters.
I didn't advocate searches and seizures, and didn't propose making anyone testify against themselves, so they really don't seem relevant.

By registering your forced to testify the fact that you have a gun and by searches and seizures if they find a unregistered gun they'll confiscate it without due process.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.