Orlando shooting, thoughts?

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Bom Tishop

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #210 on: July 14, 2016, 12:18:26 PM »
I can't believe this thread is still going....what the hell is the point? The people who want gun control have their minds made up, and they have some points as well.

The people who don't want gun control have their minds made up, and they have some points also.

Soooo....the point here???

Also symptom, come on now...try harder. There is no evidence Luke is a troll. Though I i do agree with the hatred for glocks....i always hated their long un predictable trigger action, very inaccurate.
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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #211 on: July 14, 2016, 12:21:24 PM »
I can't believe this thread is still going....what the hell is the point? The people who want gun control have their minds made up, and they have some points as well.

The people who don't want gun control have their minds made up, and they have some points also.

Soooo....the point here???

Passing the time, learning. If you only talk to try and change peoples' minds this really isn't the site for you.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #212 on: July 14, 2016, 06:28:10 PM »
You could say what about my avatar? Please elaborate.

That it indicates that you're a troll.
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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #213 on: July 14, 2016, 06:31:13 PM »
And again: A Glock? Seriously? There are so many awesome guns to choose from, and you go with that plastic piece of crap?

Baby Jesus does not approve.

I wanted to choose a generic gun and plus I like Glocks.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #214 on: July 14, 2016, 07:19:09 PM »
I didn't intended them to be snarks but my apologies if they were received that way.

Ok, but looking at your post it seems to be longer than my response. But then again you are deleting the previous quotes to save space and that can be time consuming.
I was talking about my posts too: but generally one-line points can hardly be in depth. The idea was just to try to refresh it, get the topics into vaguely organised sections rather than popping up multiple times over a post, and ideally I was hoping we wouldn't get into a debate on the brute facts which would certainly shrink the posts, but hey  :P

Ok then.

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When comparing specific crimes such as robbery as Rama set linked to it shows that you have a higher rate than we do. Not only that but as I said before your gun crimes skyrocketed just after the gun ban. It was only due to more police being hired to quell it did it went down. Plus on the same token our crime rate is plummeting and yet guns sales are rising. I'm not saying that's the cause but it does dispels the myth of more guns equals more crime.
Aside from the fact robbery is notably less severe than, you know, murder, that's still pretty much covered by what I said.

Which I'll restate that most of our murder and crime rates come from big cities usually with strict gun control.

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But sure, let's look at stats. The year in the UK is 1997 where firearms were banned:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control
There are several instances there. And sure, you see the rate of crimes involving guns increasing from that date: wow, does that refute everything I've been saying? Not really, because note what the statistics are actually saying. It is the quantity of offences involving guns, not the quality of them. Nothing like, for example, the school shooting that prompted the gun laws have happened since. Someone firing once into the air as a warning shot would be counted as an offence on that list: and would certainly happen more frequently because after that point a gun would become a more efficient means of intimidation. It doesn't mean more people were hurt.
And regardless, even if you could point out that this in fact means even more gun crime happened, and people went around shooting everyone, you just need to look further ahead to see the rate plummets. Not slowly decreases, outright plummets.
Skip down to Scotland, beyond an 05-07 year increase (which was a bad year for crime all around here) the average since the tremendous spike in crime before the gun laws were enacted, there's an undeniable decrease of the average, which would only be more obvious if more data was shown on what came before.
And honestly the homicide rates compared by country says a lot.
Then go down to Australia, the time of the gun control enacted there is marked and you can see a very clear decrease. And you can see yet another source for the fact Australia has had zero mass shootings since the ban, I have no idea why you claimed they had ten.

Actually they were already low when the gun laws was passed.

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

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While guns could theoretically be used in self-defence, they provide no actual benefit. As far as preventing property theft or harm goes, you'd be better off hiding in your room and calling a police.
They provide great benefits. Just read the stories I've linked. In fact a lot of them had they not been armed they wouldn't be here today. Plus I'm not about to wait for the police without something to hold the assailants off if they get to me before the police.

I didn't see that, but the link I gave refuted that. Kleck's studies are peered reviewed and sound. Even Wikipedia quoted someone on the other side saying such.
You can find anecdotes for anything, and those situations are still pointless because we don't know what would have happened if they didn't have a gun.

I'm not one to find out the intentions of my assailant. When my life is in immediate danger and I need to take care of the situation fast. He may just be showing off to his friends and had no intention to harm or he hated me for some reason and wanted to kill me. It's not the victim's job to judge that. You can't judge that even if you wanted to because these things happens fast.

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You can't just ignore the actual statistics and facts in favour of a few personal experiences which don't even say what you're claiming. Guns don't help, end of.

But they do and I gave stats. Up to 2 million times per year someone used a gun in self defense.

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(Plus accessible guns ensures anyone who breaks in will themselves be armed similarly).
Quick access safes can be anchored.
So? A criminal can get a gun elsewhere.

Exactly. Which is why gun control doesn't work. Plus if he gets it somewhere else then its not my problem.

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Given that straw purchases are the only accessible illegal means for getting a gun, and that they're only possible if it's easy for someone else to buy a gun, you're going to have armed assailants pretty much all the time.

Mexico has strict gun laws and the cartel has RPGs.

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Four out of every five days (Link refers to 5/6, but the figure they give is 0.006 from 4/5) in the US see a mass shooting: lone people using a gun to kill in a decision that simply wouldn't be possible to make if guns weren't accessible.
Actually that's been the average for a long time. In fact it spiked during the assault weapons ban.
And you think that's a good thing why?

No, it terrible but its not something to ban guns over. In fact my point was that during the ban our crime increased. Mass shootings alone are at the tail end of all crimes.

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Plus: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png

Forgot to look at the link.

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It's one thing to advocate. I'm all for more training and securing guns in safes. It's another to mandate it. There are states with no requirements to train in order to carry and we don't see a spike in accidents. Also you can't enforce a mandatory safe storage without infringing on many rights. And that's another thing. Our constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms so any law banning guns is a infringement.
If your arguments rely on the fact these steps are needed to actually prevent, you know, toddlers shooting themselves, I'd point out that definitely would imply training's a good thing. Take cars: would you propose people be able to buy and drive around because freedom, or should they actually know how to use the otherwise dangerous machines?

Here in the US you only need a license to drive on public roads. Children can drive tractors on their parents property. So I'm for responsible drivers, but a license doesn't promise that. In fact most of all car accidents are caused by licensed drivers.

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Plus, sure, your constitution lets people have guns, in something quite literally called an amendment. Amend it.

It doesn't let's people have guns reminds government that we already have that right.

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Before guns we killed each with knives and swords.
In armies, yeah. So?

If you make all guns dissappear then the strongest gang on the block has control. The gun is the great equalizer.

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I'm not sure where I said that but I think I was trying to say that police kill more people than law abiding armed citizens here in the US.
Still not a good thing.

I agree. But still it shows that armed law abiding citizens are not the problem.

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Which is exactly why I want to arm myself. The police responds to the same scenarios as the civilian victims. Even if you are to say that tomorrow all guns are banned how are you going to do it? Their are at least 400 million privately owned guns and at least 80 million gun owners. Most of our military and police will refuse to obey and confiscate the weapons on moral and safety basis.
If you ban guns here there would be a civil war or a dead law unenforced.
If your military and police won't follow the law, you've got problems, and that really shouldn't be a defence. Do it the same way Australia did it: didn't take too long, and went pretty easily. Organise a buy-back, get people to hand their guns in.

Australia doesn't view guns rights as highly as we do if you noticed.

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And seriously, if you're worried as to people being shot who would try to enforce gun control, that there is perfect evidence of why you definitely need it.

Why? That's exactly why the founding fathers put in the second amendment. To deter a tyrannical government.

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If it works so well then why isn't it working with Mexico?
Because America sells guns like candy and it's right next door.

Then why don't we have the same problem as Mexico?

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How many career criminals even would want to keep firearms around knowing it's an instant arrest?
Last issue's your claim "every gun ban led to the deaths of citizens by its own government." Love to see a source so I know what you're trying to refer to.
Nazi germany, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
Nazi Germany loosened gun regulations: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/26/ben-carson/fact-checking-ben-carson-nazi-guns/
With the exception, of course, of Jews: hardly what's being proposed.
Really hard to find any actual source on Stalin, but from what I can see the reason he got into power was a bunch of civilians with guns.
In fact, Mao similarly only got into power because of the wide availability of guns, from what I can see.

And then when in power disarmed everybody.

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Not seeing any evidence of Pol Pot enforcing any gun legislation: a few people seem to quote 1956 as a major year, but as Pol Pot only lead the Khmer Rouge from 1963 on... And can't find evidence of much in 1956 either. Looks more like internet meme propaganda than actual facts.

Look at the gun laws of that time.

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The second amendment also allows for the private citizen to own guns. Also as shown in Vietnam guerrilla warfare works. It works especially when the other side are hesitant to fire on their own people and it works even more when a large portion of the other side defects and bring some of the goodies. Plus if what your saying is true then that would be even more reason to have more and bigger guns.
More and bigger guns still wouldn't help against drones. Guerilla warfare isn't going to work against drones. It's an obsolete argument (much like the Second Amendment which, after all, was written in an era in which the best guns were muskets). And I would genuinely love to see someone defect with a drone hidden under their jumper. And if it got to the stage your government was a dangerous enough threat that you needed a violent revolution, I doubt they'd hesitate to fire on the people who would, from their perspective, be terrorists.

First of all its still working in the Middle East and second, most of our soldiers identify as conservative.
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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #215 on: July 14, 2016, 10:48:02 PM »
Two things jumped out at me:

1. St. Louis and New Orleans consistently compete for too murder in the country. Chicago, New York and LA arent even in the top 20. These two cities have very lax gun laws. Lax gun laws do not promote safety.

2. Mexico has issues with corruption that inhibit the enforcement of laws on the books. The laws are not the problem.
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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #216 on: July 15, 2016, 03:52:32 AM »
Which I'll restate that most of our murder and crime rates come from big cities usually with strict gun control.
Beyond Rama's point, same issue as the Mexico case: gun laws in one place don't help if they're being given out like candy down the block. Sweeping reforms, such as in Australia, and you can see the effect just by comparing crime rates with the US.

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Actually they were already low when the gun laws was passed.

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
I would really recommend looking at raw stats rather than obviously biased sources. They're lower now than they were before, and have been for a while (spike from 05 and so not withstanding).

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I'm not one to find out the intentions of my assailant. When my life is in immediate danger and I need to take care of the situation fast. He may just be showing off to his friends and had no intention to harm or he hated me for some reason and wanted to kill me. It's not the victim's job to judge that. You can't judge that even if you wanted to because these things happens fast.
But they do and I gave stats. Up to 2 million times per year someone used a gun in self defense.
If they've got a gun, it's highly unlikely you can kill him instantly. Wouldn't be hard for them to turn around and shoot.
People use guns in self-defence, sure, but remember the stats I gave: it doesn't actually stop property theft or harm. If they'd used a bat they have pretty much the same rate of success, and if they hid and called the police they were far safer. Guns don't help. Stop ignoring that.


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Exactly. Which is why gun control doesn't work. Plus if he gets it somewhere else then its not my problem.
When they're bursting into your house with a gun then yeah, is your problem. And typically they can only get it elsewhere when they're being sold accessibly all over.

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Here in the US you only need a license to drive on public roads. Children can drive tractors on their parents property. So I'm for responsible drivers, but a license doesn't promise that. In fact most of all car accidents are caused by licensed drivers.
Car accidents are caused by licensed drivers because they make up the vast majority of those on the road. So? Public roads are most roads. Would you propose, then, that you need a license to carry a gun outside of your property? After all, if it's only about home defence, then that would be reasonable. And if the government turns tyrannical they'll have a readily prepared stockpile.

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It doesn't let's people have guns reminds government that we already have that right.
And the 21st amendment repealed the 18th, the purpose of an amendment is to amend.

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If you make all guns dissappear then the strongest gang on the block has control. The gun is the great equalizer.
No, you're thinking of death. Death is the great equaliser. Plugging 'the gun' into that proverb isn't exactly helping your case. And sure, if the gang has a gun, maybe they'd have control: but if you've got an armed gang wandering around you're in trouble anyway. One person, even armed, couldn't defend themselves from a group: even more so if that group's trained. And you're assuming that not only would they keep guns, but that they wouldn't jam or break indefinitely, and that they'd somehow keep an endless supply of ammo. Without both, they're not going to be particularly dangerous.

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I agree. But still it shows that armed law abiding citizens are not the problem.
It shows guns and gun culture are, though.

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Australia doesn't view guns rights as highly as we do if you noticed.
Let's see. Their PM committed political suicide to enact the legislation, and announced it in a bullet proof vest. Signs reading "What rights will they take away next?" "What next, concentration camps?" Huge rallies of people insisting they'd never give up their guns, pretty clear threats of assassination...
Difference is, by now they realise it was a huge overreaction and so of course they wouldn't view it as highly. Back then, though...

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And then when in power disarmed everybody.

Look at the gun laws of that time.
Seriously, where are your sources for these claims? Literally all I can find is an internet meme which doesn't seem to be remotely accurate. If you're going to make such a grand claim, please back it up.

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First of all its still working in the Middle East and second, most of our soldiers identify as conservative.
In the Middle East they're hiding from drones. Only reason drones don't work is that they can't find the targets: it'd take a lot of preparation for that to be feasible here, and guns still wouldn't help. Political alignment of soldiers doesn't really enter into it, their job is literally to follow orders, and it only takes one person to control drones. And if one bit of legislation would cause that level of civil war then you seriously can't be trusted with guns.
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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #217 on: July 15, 2016, 01:04:43 PM »
Two things jumped out at me:

1. St. Louis and New Orleans consistently compete for too murder in the country. Chicago, New York and LA arent even in the top 20. These two cities have very lax gun laws. Lax gun laws do not promote safety.

And as this video points out that's more of the exception and not the rule.



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2. Mexico has issues with corruption that inhibit the enforcement of laws on the books. The laws are not the problem.

Don't we have the same thing here with our gangs? And yet they aren't armed with RPGs.
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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #218 on: July 15, 2016, 01:57:46 PM »
Which I'll restate that most of our murder and crime rates come from big cities usually with strict gun control.
Beyond Rama's point, same issue as the Mexico case: gun laws in one place don't help if they're being given out like candy down the block. Sweeping reforms, such as in Australia, and you can see the effect just by comparing crime rates with the US.

Which I'll restate. If we're causing the spike in gun crimes in Mexico then how come the same thing isn't happening here?

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Actually they were already low when the gun laws was passed.

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
I would really recommend looking at raw stats rather than obviously biased sources. They're lower now than they were before, and have been for a while (spike from 05 and so not withstanding).

This one is from BBC, something you might consider neutral and I would consider left leaning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

This one shows the graphs before and after the gun ban.

http://mygunculture.com/uk-gun-ban-creates-more-interesting-graphs/

As you can see the bans overall either did nothing or the crimes skyrocketed and hasn't came down since.

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I'm not one to find out the intentions of my assailant. When my life is in immediate danger and I need to take care of the situation fast. He may just be showing off to his friends and had no intention to harm or he hated me for some reason and wanted to kill me. It's not the victim's job to judge that. You can't judge that even if you wanted to because these things happens fast.
But they do and I gave stats. Up to 2 million times per year someone used a gun in self defense.
If they've got a gun, it's highly unlikely you can kill him instantly.

Yet hundreds to thousands have done so successfully. They may not have killed the assailant (which isn't the point anyway) but they stopped the attack.

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Wouldn't be hard for them to turn around and shoot.

Which rarely happens. Even when it did the vast majority of the time the defender was successful.

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People use guns in self-defence, sure, but remember the stats I gave: it doesn't actually stop property theft or harm.

Yes it did as my stats show'd.

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If they'd used a bat they have pretty much the same rate of success, and if they hid and called the police they were far safer. Guns don't help. Stop ignoring that.

Having a bat causes pain but stop the threat immediately. Hiding only works if the assailant doesn't find you. Like I said when seconds count the police are minutes to even an hour or so away. And if guns don't help then why do the bodyguards of your queen have them? Don't you live in a country where guns are hard to get and pistols are outright banned?

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Exactly. Which is why gun control doesn't work. Plus if he gets it somewhere else then its not my problem.
When they're bursting into your house with a gun then yeah, is your problem.

Then I would want an equalizer. My mentality is to not ask politely for the criminals to disarm to my level. My mentality is to arm up to his.

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And typically they can only get it elsewhere when they're being sold accessibly all over.

Not in Mexico, or the many middle eastern countries.

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Here in the US you only need a license to drive on public roads. Children can drive tractors on their parents property. So I'm for responsible drivers, but a license doesn't promise that. In fact most of all car accidents are caused by licensed drivers.
Car accidents are caused by licensed drivers because they make up the vast majority of those on the road. So? Public roads are most roads. Would you propose, then, that you need a license to carry a gun outside of your property?

No, because the right to keep and bear arms is explicitly lined out in the bill of rights. States like Vermont, Alaska, Wyoming, and others have no requirements to have a license to carry and we don't see a spike in crime in any of those places because of it.

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After all, if it's only about home defence, then that would be reasonable. And if the government turns tyrannical they'll have a readily prepared stockpile.

So would we. We have the largest army in the world if you count all the private citizens.

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It doesn't let's people have guns reminds government that we already have that right.
And the 21st amendment repealed the 18th, the purpose of an amendment is to amend.

Then set the legal process to repel it.

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If you make all guns dissappear then the strongest gang on the block has control. The gun is the great equalizer.
No, you're thinking of death. Death is the great equaliser. Plugging 'the gun' into that proverb isn't exactly helping your case.

Even if you weigh 200 lb., bench press, and are a black belt you can be beaten by a grandmother with a .38.

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And sure, if the gang has a gun, maybe they'd have control: but if you've got an armed gang wandering around you're in trouble anyway. One person, even armed, couldn't defend themselves from a group: even more so if that group's trained.

Most gangs aren't trained and there have been cases of civilians thwarting off multiple attackers. Not only that but are you seriously saying that an unarmed gang in an unarmed populace can't control the block?

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And you're assuming that not only would they keep guns, but that they wouldn't jam or break indefinitely, and that they'd somehow keep an endless supply of ammo. Without both, they're not going to be particularly dangerous.

Then the cartels in Mexico should only have broken empty guns by now if what you're saying is true.

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I agree. But still it shows that armed law abiding citizens are not the problem.
It shows guns and gun culture are, though.

No it doesn't. If it was we would've had this problem back when the founding fathers birthed this country. It would've been a problem even before for just about everyone had a gun.
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Australia doesn't view guns rights as highly as we do if you noticed.
Let's see. Their PM committed political suicide to enact the legislation, and announced it in a bullet proof vest. Signs reading "What rights will they take away next?" "What next, concentration camps?" Huge rallies of people insisting they'd never give up their guns, pretty clear threats of assassination...
Difference is, by now they realise it was a huge overreaction and so of course they wouldn't view it as highly. Back then, though...

Let me clarify, Australia as a whole doesn't view their gun rights as highly as we do. Plus just before the ban every gun had to be registered. Which is why here in America we fight against registration for the most part.
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And then when in power disarmed everybody.

Look at the gun laws of that time.
Seriously, where are your sources for these claims? Literally all I can find is an internet meme which doesn't seem to be remotely accurate. If you're going to make such a grand claim, please back it up.

Ok.

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First of all its still working in the Middle East and second, most of our soldiers identify as conservative.
In the Middle East they're hiding from drones. Only reason drones don't work is that they can't find the targets: it'd take a lot of preparation for that to be feasible here, and guns still wouldn't help. Political alignment of soldiers doesn't really enter into it, their job is literally to follow orders, and it only takes one person to control drones. And if one bit of legislation would cause that level of civil war then you seriously can't be trusted with guns.

Their job is to uphold the constitution as their oath stipulates.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

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Symptom

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #219 on: July 15, 2016, 07:21:44 PM »
You could say what about my avatar? Please elaborate.

That it indicates that you're a troll.

The avatar I had before this one was an actual troll. Better late than never, I guess.

Also; we are all trolls here. Anyone who takes this place seriously is a sucker. Are you a sucker?
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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #220 on: July 15, 2016, 08:08:31 PM »
You could say what about my avatar? Please elaborate.

That it indicates that you're a troll.

The avatar I had before this one was an actual troll. Better late than never, I guess.

Also; we are all trolls here. Anyone who takes this place seriously is a sucker. Are you a sucker?

No! Never! Ok, maybe at first I thought people are serious and I sorta still feel that way with certain flat earthers but still, I'm not a sucker.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #221 on: July 18, 2016, 08:19:19 AM »
Which I'll restate. If we're causing the spike in gun crimes in Mexico then how come the same thing isn't happening here?
Then the cartels in Mexico should only have broken empty guns by now if what you're saying is true.
Once again, Mexico has a higher rate because they're being handed out like candy close by in the US, and there's a major organised crime presence. So, yes, you are stuck with a system where the criminals tend to have guns while the innocent don't, because the US gun-ho culture makes straw purchases and smuggling easy. (Worth pointing out though, the US still has more crime in general than Mexico:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/United-States/Crime
See total crimes per 1000. And note that, on the next page, the US still has more firearm murders than Mexico).
It's not really a comparable situation. "More people die in a place with cartels roaming around," isn't much of a case.

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This one is from BBC, something you might consider neutral and I would consider left leaning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

This one shows the graphs before and after the gun ban.

http://mygunculture.com/uk-gun-ban-creates-more-interesting-graphs/

As you can see the bans overall either did nothing or the crimes skyrocketed and hasn't came down since.
The BBC's a neutral source, but note that the statistics themselves come from a rather clearly biased location. Plus if you look at the full report:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1334274/Gun-crime-rises-despite-Dunblane-pistol-ban.html
The sponsors of the study themselves state "The long-term impact that the 1997 legislation is likely to have on the use of handguns in crime cannot be judged with any accuracy at this time."

As for your second link, seriously, read your sources.
“Initially when we implemented gun ban measures, we hoped for an arse about face change in murder and other violent crimes” observed Ed Balls, Shadow Home Secretary. While we really didn’t see that outcome, which kind of brassed me off, what we did find was far more brilliant. Really.”
Fun fact: british politicians don't talk like that. I doubt any politicians talk like that. I seriously doubt that site contributes anything but satire.

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People use guns in self-defence, sure, but remember the stats I gave: it doesn't actually stop property theft or harm.

Yes it did as my stats show'd.
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If they'd used a bat they have pretty much the same rate of success, and if they hid and called the police they were far safer. Guns don't help. Stop ignoring that.

Having a bat causes pain but stop the threat immediately. Hiding only works if the assailant doesn't find you. Like I said when seconds count the police are minutes to even an hour or so away. And if guns don't help then why do the bodyguards of your queen have them? Don't you live in a country where guns are hard to get and pistols are outright banned?
Your statistics showed no such thing: they referenced guns being used. However, my statistics compared the rates at which guns were used successfully with the rates people defended themselves without guns, and there was no meaningful difference. End of, there's seriously no more debate to have. Guns don't help.
As for the Queen's guard, generally their guns are ceremonial. Aside from the fact they're actual soldiers so you lose a number of the issues with letting any idiot get ahold of a gun, when they stand guard at palaces their guns aren't loaded. It's for the look as much as anything (just look at the hats).

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Then I would want an equalizer. My mentality is to not ask politely for the criminals to disarm to my level. My mentality is to arm up to his.
Personally I wouldn't class potential jail time as asking politely. Besides, the only reason they're armed to that kind of a level is because guns are readily accessible, plain and simple.

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No, because the right to keep and bear arms is explicitly lined out in the bill of rights. States like Vermont, Alaska, Wyoming, and others have no requirements to have a license to carry and we don't see a spike in crime in any of those places because of it.
Keep and bear them at your home. This is just following from your logic, if you want to compare guns to cars.

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So would we. We have the largest army in the world if you count all the private citizens.
Army presupposes a certain amount of training: you've already said you wouldn't support making that necessary. A large group of armed, untrained people is typically called a mob, rather than an army.

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Even if you weigh 200 lb., bench press, and are a black belt you can be beaten by a grandmother with a .38.
Only if you're a certain distance away. Close range, like most home invasions would be, could go either way. Plus, of course, with the accessibility over there you're very unlikely to get into your ideal situation of one unarmed criminal and one armed innocent victim.

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Most gangs aren't trained and there have been cases of civilians thwarting off multiple attackers. Not only that but are you seriously saying that an unarmed gang in an unarmed populace can't control the block?
Gangs typically would be better trained than your average civilian: they'd practise at least. An unarmed gang might be able to take control, but they'd do markedly less harm and would be markedly easily for the armed police to face.



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No it doesn't. If it was we would've had this problem back when the founding fathers birthed this country. It would've been a problem even before for just about everyone had a gun.
Just about everyone had a musket, good luck going on a shooting spree with one of those.

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Let me clarify, Australia as a whole doesn't view their gun rights as highly as we do. Plus just before the ban every gun had to be registered. Which is why here in America we fight against registration for the most part.
You've been shown the former isn't the case, and the latter seems to be reaching.

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Their job is to uphold the constitution as their oath stipulates.
And to obey the orders of the President and their superior officers. Same oath.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #222 on: July 20, 2016, 12:16:33 PM »
Which I'll restate. If we're causing the spike in gun crimes in Mexico then how come the same thing isn't happening here?
Then the cartels in Mexico should only have broken empty guns by now if what you're saying is true.
Once again, Mexico has a higher rate because they're being handed out like candy close by in the US, and there's a major organised crime presence. So, yes, you are stuck with a system where the criminals tend to have guns while the innocent don't, because the US gun-ho culture makes straw purchases and smuggling easy. (Worth pointing out though, the US still has more crime in general than Mexico:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/United-States/Crime
See total crimes per 1000. And note that, on the next page, the US still has more firearm murders than Mexico).
It's not really a comparable situation. "More people die in a place with cartels roaming around," isn't much of a case.

Which again I'll restate. If that was really the case then it should be the same thing in our case. Why is southern Texas overrun by the cartels to the extant of Mexico? And its not just outside our borders. Why is Chicago more crime ridden than neighboring states?

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This one is from BBC, something you might consider neutral and I would consider left leaning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

This one shows the graphs before and after the gun ban.

http://mygunculture.com/uk-gun-ban-creates-more-interesting-graphs/

As you can see the bans overall either did nothing or the crimes skyrocketed and hasn't came down since.
The BBC's a neutral source, but note that the statistics themselves come from a rather clearly biased location. Plus if you look at the full report:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1334274/Gun-crime-rises-despite-Dunblane-pistol-ban.html
The sponsors of the study themselves state "The long-term impact that the 1997 legislation is likely to have on the use of handguns in crime cannot be judged with any accuracy at this time."

As for your second link, seriously, read your sources.
“Initially when we implemented gun ban measures, we hoped for an arse about face change in murder and other violent crimes” observed Ed Balls, Shadow Home Secretary. While we really didn’t see that outcome, which kind of brassed me off, what we did find was far more brilliant. Really.”
Fun fact: british politicians don't talk like that. I doubt any politicians talk like that. I seriously doubt that site contributes anything but satire.

Alright then watch this.



I don't expect you to respond to everything in a 19 minute video but I do ask that you address his statements on how gun control didn't affect the crime positively. And in this video its shows that if our crime rate was like that of Plano, Texas (a gun filled city) then we would indeed be lower than some of the western countries gun control advocates like to point to.



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People use guns in self-defence, sure, but remember the stats I gave: it doesn't actually stop property theft or harm.

Yes it did as my stats show'd.
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If they'd used a bat they have pretty much the same rate of success, and if they hid and called the police they were far safer. Guns don't help. Stop ignoring that.

Having a bat causes pain but stop the threat immediately. Hiding only works if the assailant doesn't find you. Like I said when seconds count the police are minutes to even an hour or so away. And if guns don't help then why do the bodyguards of your queen have them? Don't you live in a country where guns are hard to get and pistols are outright banned?
Your statistics showed no such thing: they referenced guns being used. However, my statistics compared the rates at which guns were used successfully with the rates people defended themselves without guns, and there was no meaningful difference.

As you pointed out earlier a lot of these instances go unreported.


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End of, there's seriously no more debate to have. Guns don't help.
As for the Queen's guard, generally their guns are ceremonial.

I was talking about the queen's personal detail. I highly doubt they are only armed with sticks even though they live in a gun free zone.

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Aside from the fact they're actual soldiers so you lose a number of the issues with letting any idiot get ahold of a gun, when they stand guard at palaces their guns aren't loaded. It's for the look as much as anything (just look at the hats).

I wasn't talking about them. We have something similar here with the tomb of the unknown soldier. I was talking about your equivalent to our secret service. As to your comment about idiots with guns, they run few and far between.

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Then I would want an equalizer. My mentality is to not ask politely for the criminals to disarm to my level. My mentality is to arm up to his.
Personally I wouldn't class potential jail time as asking politely.

With lenient sentences, early parol, and the fact that in most cases they drop the charges on illegal possession of a firearm for lighter sentences you can pretty say that we are asking them politely to give up their guns.

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Besides, the only reason they're armed to that kind of a level is because guns are readily accessible, plain and simple.

Yet gangs don't exist in places like Plano, Texas. Why?

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No, because the right to keep and bear arms is explicitly lined out in the bill of rights. States like Vermont, Alaska, Wyoming, and others have no requirements to have a license to carry and we don't see a spike in crime in any of those places because of it.
Keep and bear them at your home. This is just following from your logic, if you want to compare guns to cars.

I'm not. There's no reason to put such a restriction on good law abiding citizens.

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So would we. We have the largest army in the world if you count all the private citizens.
Army presupposes a certain amount of training: you've already said you wouldn't support making that necessary. A large group of armed, untrained people is typically called a mob, rather than an army.
True but we've seen what damage a mob can do.
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Even if you weigh 200 lb., bench press, and are a black belt you can be beaten by a grandmother with a .38.
Only if you're a certain distance away. Close range, like most home invasions would be, could go either way.

So you rather have granny beaten to death?

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Plus, of course, with the accessibility over there you're very unlikely to get into your ideal situation of one unarmed criminal and one armed innocent victim.

Which would again prove my point. There have been cases where multiple attackers were thwarted by one individual with a gun.

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Most gangs aren't trained and there have been cases of civilians thwarting off multiple attackers. Not only that but are you seriously saying that an unarmed gang in an unarmed populace can't control the block?
Gangs typically would be better trained than your average civilian: they'd practise at least. An unarmed gang might be able to take control, but they'd do markedly less harm and would be markedly easily for the armed police to face.

But your police aren't armed.


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No it doesn't. If it was we would've had this problem back when the founding fathers birthed this country. It would've been a problem even before for just about everyone had a gun.
Just about everyone had a musket, good luck going on a shooting spree with one of those.

That's not the makeup of our crimes with guns. Most of our crimes are gang related so a musket would do rather nicely. Plus lone muggings can be done with with a flintlock as well. And the irony is you made my point in your own sentence. Everyone was armed. Even if you're right it wasn't long before we had repeating firearms and in fact we had them even before the founding fathers though they weren't in mass production, though the founding fathers were aware and fans of the technology.

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Let me clarify, Australia as a whole doesn't view their gun rights as highly as we do. Plus just before the ban every gun had to be registered. Which is why here in America we fight against registration for the most part.
You've been shown the former isn't the case, and the latter seems to be reaching.

Name me one confiscation that didn't start with registration.

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Their job is to uphold the constitution as their oath stipulates.
And to obey the orders of the President and their superior officers. Same oath.

If such orders are constitutional. "To defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic".
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #223 on: July 20, 2016, 01:17:33 PM »
I find gang violence is common in big cities and rare in small cities irrespective of gun laws.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Bom Tishop

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #224 on: July 20, 2016, 04:30:49 PM »
Wow out of all the places to speak of Plano,tx is brought up lol. This is actually where my house is. It is a gun filled place however you need to understand the city to understand why crime rate is so low.

It is a VERY strict town surpassed only by Allen and Frisco. There is also ALOT of money in the town and the city wants that money to stay. Just look at West Plano, it starts at the upper middle class and goes to .1 percenters income wise. There are also alot of big names that reside here from entertainment, sports and political.

The city actively works at keeping the area updated and in control. There is only one part in East Plano that there are "average" or "low" income people. Even In that area, the city works very hard to keep it "upscale", updated, and quality people, plus, there is almost a policeman at every corner.

Speaking of police, they are everywhere as stated, they are also some of the highest paid in the country. They are fair yet firm, and most attempt to keep the vision of Plano as a quality city. I know the chief personally, and he attempts to instill his attitude and vision upon all of the officers and this in charge. Now Allen the rival of plano next door, those cops have god complex but that is another story.


Anyways, my whole point, gun control is very little to do with Plano's current success as a city and low crime rate. They focus and spend tons of money on infrastructure, including getting quality businesses to the city, which in turn gets quality people. Such as spending millions to win the bid for Toyotas headquarters, communications corridor which before the tech bust in 01 housed almost every communication company's head quarters, even now still has a serious presence. I could continue on but you get the picture.

Is the place a pain to live in at times, yes because it is a strict place, pricey taxes and commerce, but some things are necessary when you want a desired consequence.

Whole point, competent city leaders, a strong arm, proper policing, strong focus on infrastructure and attracting quality habitants(business/personal), and so forth is the causation of the cities result...not federal or Texas gun laws.


Oh and I am not insinuating the town is perfect, nor that people of "average" income are bad people or trouble makers. The part of town that is average or below average income is still quality people. Trouble makers (of all income status) lives are made very difficult by the city and policing until it becomes a better scenario to take it else where. Gangs and crime try to make its way in at times, but the city goes after it heavily and as the stats say, we are very heavily armed lol. Plus a large populous of chl's .

Sorry for the rant, I have just heard plano come up a few times (more than just here) for the side of gun advocates (which I am one myself as I have said before). But the people running the city, police, and it's habitants deserve the credit, not gun laws.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 04:33:40 PM by Babyhighspeed »
Quote from: Bom Tishop
LordDave is quite alright even for a bleeding heart liberal. Godspeed good sir

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2016, 03:11:10 AM »
Which again I'll restate. If that was really the case then it should be the same thing in our case. Why is southern Texas overrun by the cartels to the extant of Mexico? And its not just outside our borders. Why is Chicago more crime ridden than neighboring states?
As Rama pointed out, gangs and the like favour big cities for multiple reasons. They're not going to be particularly concerned with a town with no real benefit for them.

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I don't expect you to respond to everything in a 19 minute video but I do ask that you address his statements on how gun control didn't affect the crime positively. And in this video its shows that if our crime rate was like that of Plano, Texas (a gun filled city) then we would indeed be lower than some of the western countries gun control advocates like to point to.
If I'm not meant to watch a 19 minute video, how am I meant to find the section referring to what you're talking about? The way I see it, there are multiple answers, most coming back to good old statistical analysis.
I'm assuming he gives a source. in which case, it'd be much easier of you simply mentioned that rather than linked to a video: raw data's much more useful. If he gives no source, then the claim's meaningless in the face of the data you've already seen. Just assertion.
If he does give a source, then there are potential issues. It's easy to artificially inflate readings if you try, so if the source is biased it ought to be taken with a pinch of salt. Plus then we get onto technicalities: crime involving firearms may well increase in the wake of gun control because the definition of such a crime would change. Few extra people who tried to keep a gun for bragging rights or ego or whatever, that'd be counted among crime involving firearms. Further, shootings involving firearms doesn't mean a higher death rate: it'd likely be one-on-one instances, maybe between gangs, rather than mass shootings: I'd still count that as reduced harm. And then there's the matter of long-term impact. Plus, on the topic of misrepresenting, our crime did reach a peak after gun control: but quite a lot of years after the legislation was enacted, so there's no causative factor, and it went away just as suddenly. Still, it'd be easy to phrase that in an accusative fashion.
As for comparing to one town out of thousands, that's hardly meaningful.


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As you pointed out earlier a lot of these instances go unreported.
Actually it was the opposite: typically people overreport the times they've used guns in self-defence, purely because it's such a politically charged issue (for example).


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I was talking about the queen's personal detail. I highly doubt they are only armed with sticks even though they live in a gun free zone.

I wasn't talking about them. We have something similar here with the tomb of the unknown soldier. I was talking about your equivalent to our secret service. As to your comment about idiots with guns, they run few and far between.
Guards of the Prime Minister would likely be a better analogy. Hardly comparable though: they're trained, well armed, little to no possibility of abusing the system, and the setting is completely different to your typical home invasion. Someone running along the grounds of Buckingham Palace or down Downing Street would be noticed long before they get into the building, and would be stopped just as quickly.
And, fun fact, historically (up to 1991) Downing Street was open to the public, and had a total of one police officer standing guard. That's the equivalent of being to walk up to the front door of the White House passing just one guard. The security was simple: there's no keyhole on the outside, someone had to open it from within. The sheer unwieldiness of sneaking inside would deter most people: you wouldn't need a gun to stop someone taking half an hour to break through a door or window. There are guards now since a 1991 attack by the IRA (probably the most dangerous terrorist threat the UK's faced) just to be careful, but even now the doors go unguarded on weekends, with just a few extra sitting inside. And for reference as to how effective this was, we've had a total of one PM assassinated, two centuries ago.

Regardless, it's notably a completely different situation. Training, certainty, relevance, an actual use for long range arms...

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With lenient sentences, early parol, and the fact that in most cases they drop the charges on illegal possession of a firearm for lighter sentences you can pretty say that we are asking them politely to give up their guns.
Which is a result of less stringent laws on owning guns. Hardly comparable. Also, source?

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Keep and bear them at your home. This is just following from your logic, if you want to compare guns to cars.
I'm not. There's no reason to put such a restriction on good law abiding citizens.
Why couldn't I make the same argument about cars?

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True but we've seen what damage a mob can do.
Which is my point exactly.

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Even if you weigh 200 lb., bench press, and are a black belt you can be beaten by a grandmother with a .38.
Only if you're a certain distance away. Close range, like most home invasions would be, could go either way.
So you rather have granny beaten to death?
You'd rather have her shot? Besides, older people might struggle with guns, particularly if their hands shake or their eyes aren't perfect (both likely). Home invader? Scrabble to find glasses, find gun, pray you can aim... Not a great equaliser when the burglar would still likely have an advantage.

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But your police aren't armed.
Most aren't, some are, they're just not needed for every little situation here because every small-time crook wouldn't be able to wave a gun around.


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That's not the makeup of our crimes with guns. Most of our crimes are gang related so a musket would do rather nicely. Plus lone muggings can be done with with a flintlock as well. And the irony is you made my point in your own sentence. Everyone was armed. Even if you're right it wasn't long before we had repeating firearms and in fact we had them even before the founding fathers though they weren't in mass production, though the founding fathers were aware and fans of the technology.
No irony, just quoting you. So, would you support legislation to limit the Second Amendment to refer to the weapons of the time it was written, if they're just as effective?

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Name me one confiscation that didn't start with registration.
Name me one confiscation/registration that didn't start with guns being legally available. Slippery slope arguments are a fallacy for a reason.

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Their job is to uphold the constitution as their oath stipulates.
And to obey the orders of the President and their superior officers. Same oath.

If such orders are constitutional. "To defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic".
And if it gets to the point where the government is enough of a threat that you need to take up arms against them, how hard do you think it'd be for them to add another amendment?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Bullwinkle

  • The Elder Ones
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  • Standard Idiot
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #226 on: July 21, 2016, 04:40:05 AM »
And if it gets to the point where the government is enough of a threat that you need to take up arms against them, how hard do you think it'd be for them to add another amendment?

There is already an amendment that covers weaponry.
And the reason for the need of a free people to enjoy that right.

First two of ten built in amendments. Part of the original Constitution from day one.

Amendment I(paraphrasing), Free, uncontrolled, unrestricted, unapologetic speech.

Amendment IIA well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
That is the Second Amendment, in it's entirety.

At the time, regulated meant outfitted. Militia was every adult male.
Our government exists at the feet of our people. We allow our government to exist.
We do not serve our rulers. They serve us. We, the people, are the government.

How hard do you think it'd be to add another amendment?
It is an arduous process. By design. . . .


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The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures.  None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention.  The Congress proposes an amendment in the form of a joint resolution.   Since the President does not have a constitutional role in the amendment process, the joint resolution does not go to the White House for signature or approval.  The original document is forwarded directly to NARA's Office of the Federal Register (OFR) for processing and publication.  The OFR adds legislative history notes to the joint resolution and publishes it in slip law format.  The OFR also assembles an information package for the States which includes formal "red-line" copies of the joint resolution, copies of the joint resolution in slip law format, and the statutory procedure for ratification under 1 U.S.C. 106b.
The Archivist submits the proposed amendment to the States for their consideration by sending a letter of notification to each Governor along with the informational material prepared by the OFR.  The Governors then formally submit the amendment to their State legislatures or the state calls for a convention, depending on what Congress has specified.  In the past, some State legislatures have not waited to receive official notice before taking action on a proposed amendment.  When a State ratifies a proposed amendment, it sends the Archivist an original or certified copy of the State action, which is immediately conveyed to the Director of the Federal Register.  The OFR examines ratification documents for facial legal sufficiency and an authenticating signature.  If the documents are found to be in good order, the Director acknowledges receipt and maintains custody of them.  The OFR retains these documents until an amendment is adopted or fails, and then transfers the records to the National Archives for preservation.
A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution as soon as it is ratified by three-fourths of the States (38 of 50 States).  When the OFR verifies that it has received the required number of authenticated ratification documents, it drafts a formal proclamation for the Archivist to certify that the amendment is valid and has become part of the Constitution.  This certification is published in the Federal Register and U.S. Statutes at Large and serves as official notice to the Congress and to the Nation that the amendment process has been completed.


The United States of America is not a fiefdom or feudal system left over from
the dark past. Adapted and modified to make the population believe they
have a stake in the current world.

The United States of America is the reason that Europe doesn't speak
German and Russian. I am tired of the United States of America
pissing away treasure and young men to protect nations that
refuse to protect themselves.


(I may have run a bit off track there.)




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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #227 on: July 21, 2016, 04:55:01 AM »
And if it gets to the point where the government is enough of a threat that you need to take up arms against them, how hard do you think it'd be for them to add another amendment?

There is already an amendment that covers weaponry.
And the reason for the need of a free people to enjoy that right.

First two of ten built in amendments. Part of the original Constitution from day one.
And twenty seven total in the constitution, with ones such as the 21st which repealed the 18th.
And the Second Amendment's not unlimited. take US v Miller, and a number of other SCOTUS cases. Plus the amendment word for word states 'a well regulated' militia, as you pointed out. Sounds like it advocates a fair amount of, well, regulation: ie, gun control.

Quite rare that that something from over two hundred years ago is perfectly suited for the present.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Bullwinkle

  • The Elder Ones
  • 21053
  • Standard Idiot
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #228 on: July 21, 2016, 06:26:14 AM »
And if it gets to the point where the government is enough of a threat that you need to take up arms against them, how hard do you think it'd be for them to add another amendment?

There is already an amendment that covers weaponry.
And the reason for the need of a free people to enjoy that right.

First two of ten built in amendments. Part of the original Constitution from day one.
And twenty seven total in the constitution, with ones such as the 21st which repealed the 18th.
And the Second Amendment's not unlimited. take US v Miller, and a number of other SCOTUS cases. Plus the amendment word for word states 'a well regulated' militia, as you pointed out. Sounds like it advocates a fair amount of, well, regulation: ie, gun control.

Quite rare that that something from over two hundred years ago is perfectly suited for the present.


What I pointed out was that 240 years ago "regulated" meant
"outfitted" or "equipped". And "militia" was every civilian man.

So it means "a well armed population".
And the reason was to keep the government on it's toes.

I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not trying to.

I respect your position.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #229 on: July 21, 2016, 07:32:18 AM »

What I pointed out was that 240 years ago "regulated" meant
"outfitted" or "equipped". And "militia" was every civilian man.

So it means "a well armed population".
And the reason was to keep the government on it's toes.

I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not trying to.

I respect your position.

Yep, just trying to emphasise how the amendment in those times doesn't really mean what you can read. After all, it's not taken to only mean "Every adult male," nowadays, women are allowed guns too under an amendment not written with them in mind.
Similarly for keeping the government on its toes: feasible in those times when officials wandered about on horseback, less so now. The guy with a car with five inch thick bullet proof glass and countermeasures to RPGs isn't going to be particularly intimidated by a guy with a handheld gun.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind either, i just enjoy discussion.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #230 on: July 21, 2016, 02:12:10 PM »
Which again I'll restate. If that was really the case then it should be the same thing in our case. Why is southern Texas overrun by the cartels to the extant of Mexico? And its not just outside our borders. Why is Chicago more crime ridden than neighboring states?
As Rama pointed out, gangs and the like favour big cities for multiple reasons. They're not going to be particularly concerned with a town with no real benefit for them.

Then that would negate the whole guns enables crime. It's not the guns but the people and economy.

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I don't expect you to respond to everything in a 19 minute video but I do ask that you address his statements on how gun control didn't affect the crime positively. And in this video its shows that if our crime rate was like that of Plano, Texas (a gun filled city) then we would indeed be lower than some of the western countries gun control advocates like to point to.
If I'm not meant to watch a 19 minute video, how am I meant to find the section referring to what you're talking about?

I believe it's around the five or seven minute mark.

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The way I see it, there are multiple answers, most coming back to good old statistical analysis.
I'm assuming he gives a source. in which case, it'd be much easier of you simply mentioned that rather than linked to a video: raw data's much more useful. If he gives no source, then the claim's meaningless in the face of the data you've already seen. Just assertion.
If he does give a source, then there are potential issues. It's easy to artificially inflate readings if you try, so if the source is biased it ought to be taken with a pinch of salt. Plus then we get onto technicalities: crime involving firearms may well increase in the wake of gun control because the definition of such a crime would change. Few extra people who tried to keep a gun for bragging rights or ego or whatever, that'd be counted among crime involving firearms.
That wasn't the only thing that rose shortly after the ban. In Australia violent crime rose shortly after.
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Further, shootings involving firearms doesn't mean a higher death rate: it'd likely be one-on-one instances, maybe between gangs, rather than mass shootings: I'd still count that as reduced harm. And then there's the matter of long-term impact. Plus, on the topic of misrepresenting, our crime did reach a peak after gun control: but quite a lot of years after the legislation was enacted, so there's no causative factor, and it went away just as suddenly. Still, it'd be easy to phrase that in an accusative fashion.
As for comparing to one town out of thousands, that's hardly meaningful.

My original point was that gun control didnt affect crime. It either went back to its original state or it skyrocketed.

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As you pointed out earlier a lot of these instances go unreported.
Actually it was the opposite: typically people overreport the times they've used guns in self-defence, purely because it's such a politically charged issue (for example).


How do you know this?

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I was talking about the queen's personal detail. I highly doubt they are only armed with sticks even though they live in a gun free zone.

I wasn't talking about them. We have something similar here with the tomb of the unknown soldier. I was talking about your equivalent to our secret service. As to your comment about idiots with guns, they run few and far between.
Guards of the Prime Minister would likely be a better analogy. Hardly comparable though: they're trained, well armed, little to no possibility of abusing the system, and the setting is completely different to your typical home invasion. Someone running along the grounds of Buckingham Palace or down Downing Street would be noticed long before they get into the building, and would be stopped just as quickly.

Usually by armed force. Same with our president. In fact recently someone climbed over the fence at the White House and was shot down.

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And, fun fact, historically (up to 1991) Downing Street was open to the public, and had a total of one police officer standing guard. That's the equivalent of being to walk up to the front door of the White House passing just one guard. The security was simple: there's no keyhole on the outside, someone had to open it from within. The sheer unwieldiness of sneaking inside would deter most people: you wouldn't need a gun to stop someone taking half an hour to break through a door or window. There are guards now since a 1991 attack by the IRA (probably the most dangerous terrorist threat the UK's faced) just to be careful, but even now the doors go unguarded on weekends, with just a few extra sitting inside. And for reference as to how effective this was, we've had a total of one PM assassinated, two centuries ago.

Wasn't this before the handgun ban? Even so the guards are armed no matter how few of them there may be. And while not every situation would call for them to draw their guns they still have them.

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Regardless, it's notably a completely different situation. Training, certainty, relevance, an actual use for long range arms...

Most gun owners here are responsible with their guns. Also we have long range arms. Btw, why would the guards have long range weapons if the gun laws are so effective?

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With lenient sentences, early parol, and the fact that in most cases they drop the charges on illegal possession of a firearm for lighter sentences you can pretty say that we are asking them politely to give up their guns.
Which is a result of less stringent laws on owning guns. Hardly comparable. Also, source?

It's illegal for a felon to be in possession of a firearm. I believe the minimum is 5 years behind bars. After that he is barred for life from ever owning a firearm unless he pleas to the legal system to restore his rights or the charges are dropped. If that's not stringent then I don't know what is. And in our case a felon could be someone who dropped something off a high rise or forgot to add $5 to his tax statements (depending on how vigil the IRS is). As for source I forgot to put in slink but its not that hard to look up.

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Keep and bear them at your home. This is just following from your logic, if you want to compare guns to cars.
I'm not. There's no reason to put such a restriction on good law abiding citizens.
Why couldn't I make the same argument about cars?

For one its not directly listed as a right in the constitution. For another when you drive a car you are actively operating it. It would be like me holding my gun up and keeping my finger on the trigger at all times. Firearms on the other hand when they are in a holster, safe, or sock drawer it's not going to do anything and its not a danger to anyone until someone picks it up.

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True but we've seen what damage a mob can do.
Which is my point exactly.

Even with our lenient gun laws you haven't seen too many mobs armed.

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Even if you weigh 200 lb., bench press, and are a black belt you can be beaten by a grandmother with a .38.
Only if you're a certain distance away. Close range, like most home invasions would be, could go either way.
So you rather have granny beaten to death?
You'd rather have her shot?

I rather have granny have a fighting chance. The criminal is going to get the gun either way.


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Besides, older people might struggle with guns, particularly if their hands shake or their eyes aren't perfect (both likely). Home invader? Scrabble to find glasses, find gun, pray you can aim... Not a great equaliser when the burglar would still likely have an advantage.

There have been cases where granny fought off intruders with a gun.

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But your police aren't armed.
Most aren't, some are, they're just not needed for every little situation here because every small-time crook wouldn't be able to wave a gun around.

Then how come Australian cops wear guns?

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That's not the makeup of our crimes with guns. Most of our crimes are gang related so a musket would do rather nicely. Plus lone muggings can be done with with a flintlock as well. And the irony is you made my point in your own sentence. Everyone was armed. Even if you're right it wasn't long before we had repeating firearms and in fact we had them even before the founding fathers though they weren't in mass production, though the founding fathers were aware and fans of the technology.
No irony, just quoting you. So, would you support legislation to limit the Second Amendment to refer to the weapons of the time it was written, if they're just as effective?

No, muskets can do the job but modern weaponry can do it better. It gives the individual the capability to thwart off multiple attackers with the same technology if tactics are applied.

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Name me one confiscation that didn't start with registration.
Name me one confiscation/registration that didn't start with guns being legally available. Slippery slope arguments are a fallacy for a reason.

Japan never had a large ownership.

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Their job is to uphold the constitution as their oath stipulates.
And to obey the orders of the President and their superior officers. Same oath.

If such orders are constitutional. "To defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic".
And if it gets to the point where the government is enough of a threat that you need to take up arms against them, how hard do you think it'd be for them to add another amendment?

Very hard. It takes a two thirds vote to add or retract and amendment.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #231 on: July 21, 2016, 02:20:09 PM »
Here's an article about Delaware dropping most of their gun charges.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Rama Set

  • 6877
  • I am also an engineer
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #232 on: July 21, 2016, 02:30:32 PM »
Which again I'll restate. If that was really the case then it should be the same thing in our case. Why is southern Texas overrun by the cartels to the extant of Mexico? And its not just outside our borders. Why is Chicago more crime ridden than neighboring states?
As Rama pointed out, gangs and the like favour big cities for multiple reasons. They're not going to be particularly concerned with a town with no real benefit for them.

Then that would negate the whole guns enables crime. It's not the guns but the people and economy.


That is kind of the point.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #233 on: July 21, 2016, 02:31:18 PM »
Here's the Vox rebuttal with sources.

http://louderwithcrowder.com/vox-gun-rebuttal/
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #234 on: July 22, 2016, 04:16:31 AM »
Then that would negate the whole guns enables crime. It's not the guns but the people and economy.
There's never only one cause for anything. Nothing is ever that simple. Crime favours certain areas, but guns definitely make it a lot easier: and note that that's only one aspect of the danger they pose.

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That wasn't the only thing that rose shortly after the ban. In Australia violent crime rose shortly after.
My original point was that gun control didnt affect crime. It either went back to its original state or it skyrocketed.
And the number of mass shootings dropped to zero. So. Which would you rather be a victim of? Violent crime might rise because the criminals who'd otherwise be shooting are restricted to hands and fists.
Recall how easy it is to manipulate statistics too.

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How do you know this?
Stats already posted: it's a matter of record that error snuck in, whether because people misremembered the time since they used a gun, so it didn't belong in the timeframe of the survey, or created an event. The sheer number of tales reported that mathematically couldn't have happened...

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Usually by armed force. Same with our president. In fact recently someone climbed over the fence at the White House and was shot down.

Wasn't this before the handgun ban? Even so the guards are armed no matter how few of them there may be. And while not every situation would call for them to draw their guns they still have them.
Yep, and someone got inside the White House with a knife, I think. Looks like guns actually weren't that great compared to the drastic notion of locking doors and windows.

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Most gun owners here are responsible with their guns. Also we have long range arms. Btw, why would the guards have long range weapons if the gun laws are so effective?
Most isn't all, and you've opposed licenses to ensure responsibility so you don't get to play the "Most are responsible!" card given you're apparently perfectly happy putting them in the hands of the irresponsible.
Guards of major places like Downing Street and Buckingham Palace have to protect sizeable grounds rather than a few tiny rooms. Pretty different.

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For one its not directly listed as a right in the constitution. For another when you drive a car you are actively operating it. It would be like me holding my gun up and keeping my finger on the trigger at all times. Firearms on the other hand when they are in a holster, safe, or sock drawer it's not going to do anything and its not a danger to anyone until someone picks it up.
Ninth amendment, something doesn't need to be specifically listed in the constitution to be considered a right. Ability to travel seems pretty key to me. A car's no danger to anyone in a garage, it's no danger to anyone unless you're using it: just like a gun. It just so happens that it needs to be used more often than a gun: so surely that's an argument for them to be made more accessible?

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Even with our lenient gun laws you haven't seen too many mobs armed.
Well, there's the mob, but hey.

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I rather have granny have a fighting chance. The criminal is going to get the gun either way.
Fighting chance would be letting her hide and call the police and not worry about someone breaking into her house and shooting her, given that a younger person is always going to be able to outdraw and aim at someone that older.


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There have been cases where granny fought off intruders with a gun.
And it remains a fact that guns have no advantage over generic weapons like bats, and are vastly inferior to hiding and calling the police: and even having a gun in the latter case gives you no advantage. Stop ignoring those statistics.

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Then how come Australian cops wear guns?
Because they have a right-wing government who encourages it. By the sound of it a fair few officers are reluctant to have to work with that sort of unnecessary firepower.

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No, muskets can do the job but modern weaponry can do it better. It gives the individual the capability to thwart off multiple attackers with the same technology if tactics are applied.
And on the flipside allows attackers to target multiple victims: or to fire again quickly if they miss.

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Very hard. It takes a two thirds vote to add or retract and amendment.
Note the caveat: if the government is corrupt to the point you need to take up arms against it, I doubt that'd prevent much.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Bullwinkle

  • The Elder Ones
  • 21053
  • Standard Idiot
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #235 on: July 22, 2016, 01:33:26 PM »

What I pointed out was that 240 years ago "regulated" meant
"outfitted" or "equipped". And "militia" was every civilian man.

So it means "a well armed population".
And the reason was to keep the government on it's toes.

I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not trying to.

I respect your position.

Yep, just trying to emphasise how the amendment in those times doesn't really mean what you can read. After all, it's not taken to only mean "Every adult male," nowadays, women are allowed guns too under an amendment not written with them in mind.
Similarly for keeping the government on its toes: feasible in those times when officials wandered about on horseback, less so now. The guy with a car with five inch thick bullet proof glass and countermeasures to RPGs isn't going to be particularly intimidated by a guy with a handheld gun.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind either, i just enjoy discussion.


Perhaps we can agree on this . . .


If there was a simple solution, government would still have trouble solving it.


 ;D

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #236 on: July 22, 2016, 02:25:28 PM »
Perhaps we can agree on this . . .


If there was a simple solution, government would still have trouble solving it.


 ;D
Isn't that always the case?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #237 on: July 22, 2016, 04:31:36 PM »
Then that would negate the whole guns enables crime. It's not the guns but the people and economy.
There's never only one cause for anything. Nothing is ever that simple. Crime favours certain areas, but guns definitely make it a lot easier: and note that that's only one aspect of the danger they pose.

Which even if that's true it's a small factor. More people are killed by hands and feet then they are with long guns and for certain the dreaded "assault rifle". The majority of gun crimes are caused by pistols.

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That wasn't the only thing that rose shortly after the ban. In Australia violent crime rose shortly after.
My original point was that gun control didnt affect crime. It either went back to its original state or it skyrocketed.
And the number of mass shootings dropped to zero.

Which is demonstratively false. There have been ten mass shot things since the ban. In fact mass shootings weren't even a big issue in the first place. Same here. When we enacted the "assault" weapons ban we had an increase in mass shootings.

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So. Which would you rather be a victim of? Violent crime might rise because the criminals who'd otherwise be shooting are restricted to hands and fists.
Recall how easy it is to manipulate statistics too.

Wouldn't being shot be considered a violent crime as well?

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How do you know this?
Stats already posted: it's a matter of record that error snuck in, whether because people misremembered the time since they used a gun, so it didn't belong in the timeframe of the survey, or created an event. The sheer number of tales reported that mathematically couldn't have happened...

Actually as this link shows the 2 million cases of defensive gun use is valid.


http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate

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Usually by armed force. Same with our president. In fact recently someone climbed over the fence at the White House and was shot down.

Wasn't this before the handgun ban? Even so the guards are armed no matter how few of them there may be. And while not every situation would call for them to draw their guns they still have them.
Yep, and someone got inside the White House with a knife, I think. Looks like guns actually weren't that great compared to the drastic notion of locking doors and windows.

How many doors and windows are on a fence? Sure, lock your doors but have a plan B.

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Most gun owners here are responsible with their guns. Also we have long range arms. Btw, why would the guards have long range weapons if the gun laws are so effective?
Most isn't all, and you've opposed licenses to ensure responsibility so you don't get to play the "Most are responsible!" card given you're apparently perfectly happy putting them in the hands of the irresponsible.
A license doesn't ensure safety. Drive through Chicago and you'll see my point. A license is permission from the government to excercise a right promised to me by the constitution. In fact I'm willing the bet that percentage wise there are more responsible gun owners then there are lisenced drivers.

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Guards of major places like Downing Street and Buckingham Palace have to protect sizeable grounds rather than a few tiny rooms. Pretty different.

And your point is?

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For one its not directly listed as a right in the constitution. For another when you drive a car you are actively operating it. It would be like me holding my gun up and keeping my finger on the trigger at all times. Firearms on the other hand when they are in a holster, safe, or sock drawer it's not going to do anything and its not a danger to anyone until someone picks it up.
Ninth amendment, something doesn't need to be specifically listed in the constitution to be considered a right. Ability to travel seems pretty key to me. A car's no danger to anyone in a garage, it's no danger to anyone unless you're using it: just like a gun. It just so happens that it needs to be used more often than a gun: so surely that's an argument for them to be made more accessible?

For what to be more accessible? Cars? I would say that you shouldn't need a license to drive. The license doesn't ensure that you're a safe driver. It only shows that you memorized traffic laws for the test and were on your best behavior during the road test. I think a better solution is you take responsibility on the road and if you cause damage to someone else then you pay out of your own pocket double the amount to repair it. The idea of potentially paying for two new cars if you cause an accident would keep people on there toes.
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Even with our lenient gun laws you haven't seen too many mobs armed.
Well, there's the mob, but hey.

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I rather have granny have a fighting chance. The criminal is going to get the gun either way.
Fighting chance would be letting her hide and call the police and not worry about someone breaking into her house and shooting her, given that a younger person is always going to be able to outdraw and aim at someone that older.

If she's too slow to draw then wouldn't she be too slow to run and hide? I'm not advocating going out and confronting the intruder but it'll be a little nerve racking for me if I had to depend on my hiding skills.

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There have been cases where granny fought off intruders with a gun.
And it remains a fact that guns have no advantage over generic weapons like bats, and are vastly inferior to hiding and calling the police: and even having a gun in the latter case gives you no advantage. Stop ignoring those statistics.

Actually I found something interesting. It's easier to get an illegal firearm in England than it is to get one here.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/192/smuggling_guns_and_ammunition/194

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Then how come Australian cops wear guns?
Because they have a right-wing government who encourages it. By the sound of it a fair few officers are reluctant to have to work with that sort of unnecessary firepower.

How much is a few?

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No, muskets can do the job but modern weaponry can do it better. It gives the individual the capability to thwart off multiple attackers with the same technology if tactics are applied.
And on the flipside allows attackers to target multiple victims: or to fire again quickly if they miss.

Which happens mostly at gun free zones. There have been cases where would be mass shootings were thwarted by law abiding citizens who were armed.

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Very hard. It takes a two thirds vote to add or retract and amendment.
Note the caveat: if the government is corrupt to the point you need to take up arms against it, I doubt that'd prevent much.

Ok.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

*

Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2016, 05:21:34 PM »
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That wasn't the only thing that rose shortly after the ban. In Australia violent crime rose shortly after.
My original point was that gun control didnt affect crime. It either went back to its original state or it skyrocketed.
And the number of mass shootings dropped to zero.

Which is demonstratively false. There have been ten mass shot things since the ban. In fact mass shootings weren't even a big issue in the first place. Same here. When we enacted the "assault" weapons ban we had an increase in mass shootings.
You've made that claim before and didn't give a source when asked, despite the fact I provided several to the contrary. Mass shootings were a big issue, they just don't compare to the US's ridiculous level.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/australia-20-years-after-gun-reform-no-mass-shootings-declining-firearm-deaths
And if memory serves you made that exact assault weapons claim before, and retracted it when I provided the actual numbers. Typical number of deaths (outlier omitted) was reduced, and even that outlier didn't reach the peaks seen outside he ban.

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Wouldn't being shot be considered a violent crime as well?
More likely to be considered murder.

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Actually as this link shows the 2 million cases of defensive gun use is valid.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate
Look. Pay attention. That link only covers one possible issue, and if you look at the actual numbers:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262
If the NCVS is accurate, then the best possible case scenario (of cases where a home was robbed when the owner was present and awake, assuming every burglar robbed a home with a gun owner and every homeowner used their gun) accounts for 21.3% of the people who claimed to do so. That's less than a quarter. No amount of minor errors in the NCVS is going to account for a gap of that size. Telescoping and false reporting are pretty much required.

And regardless this is all irrelevant because of the fact you keep ignoring:
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/defensive-gun-use-armed-with-reason-hemenway/
Comparing situations where people used a gun to when people didn't, there is no meaningful benefit to using a gun. Read that fact. Pay attention to it. Stop ignoring it. if you want to have a discussion you actually have to engage. Anecdotes of people using a gun, or even accounts of people using a gun, don't mean a thing because no one's denying that guns can be used in self-defence, there's just no benefit compared to the alternatives.

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A license doesn't ensure safety. Drive through Chicago and you'll see my point. A license is permission from the government to excercise a right promised to me by the constitution. In fact I'm willing the bet that percentage wise there are more responsible gun owners then there are lisenced drivers.
For what to be more accessible? Cars? I would say that you shouldn't need a license to drive. The license doesn't ensure that you're a safe driver. It only shows that you memorized traffic laws for the test and were on your best behavior during the road test. I think a better solution is you take responsibility on the road and if you cause damage to someone else then you pay out of your own pocket double the amount to repair it. The idea of potentially paying for two new cars if you cause an accident would keep people on there toes.
Getting a license also shows you know how to use a car. Admittedly I don't know how it is in the US, but in the UK there's the theory portion, and a section in the practical where, for example, you have to know how to identify certain issues with a car, such as how to refill the windscreen cleaner. You need to know how to use something before you can be trusted with it. Memorising the laws, memorising the guidelines of how to use something, is a good thing.
And seriously, making drivers, particularly new drivers, perpetually nervous is not going to reduce accidents in the slightest.

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Guards of major places like Downing Street and Buckingham Palace have to protect sizeable grounds rather than a few tiny rooms. Pretty different.
And your point is?
That trained guards protecting sizeable grounds from meaningful threats have a use for long-range weapons. Homeowners who can typically cross the largest room in their house in seconds, less so.


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If she's too slow to draw then wouldn't she be too slow to run and hide? I'm not advocating going out and confronting the intruder but it'll be a little nerve racking for me if I had to depend on my hiding skills.
She'd be too slow to run and hide only if she's in the same room as the burglar, in which case trying to draw a gun wouldn't do any good either. Sure, hiding might be nerve wracking, pretty sure having a gun pointed at you would be the same, as would seriously injuring another human being with the potential of killing them.

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Actually I found something interesting. It's easier to get an illegal firearm in England than it is to get one here.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/192/smuggling_guns_and_ammunition/194
That's about smuggling, not illegal firearms in general. There's not going to be much smuggling in the US because it's utterly unnecessary. Most can legally own one, and those that can't could borrow a friend's. Hardly compares.

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How much is a few?
No idea, it's late, i'll look up the article again later if you want. Had to go through a few citations to find, and not easy to find references before/after bills were enacted etc.

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Which happens mostly at gun free zones. There have been cases where would be mass shootings were thwarted by law abiding citizens who were armed.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/oregon-shooting-gun-laws-213222
Very rarely the case. Some lie (a lot of shooters seem to kill themselves), some work concurrently with the police, some get killed themselves in the attempt, some nearly kill the wrong person...
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

*

Luke 22:35-38

  • 3608
  • The earth is a globe, DUH! prove its not
Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #239 on: July 23, 2016, 06:51:31 PM »
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That wasn't the only thing that rose shortly after the ban. In Australia violent crime rose shortly after.
My original point was that gun control didnt affect crime. It either went back to its original state or it skyrocketed.
And the number of mass shootings dropped to zero.

Which is demonstratively false. There have been ten mass shot things since the ban. In fact mass shootings weren't even a big issue in the first place. Same here. When we enacted the "assault" weapons ban we had an increase in mass shootings.
You've made that claim before and didn't give a source when asked, despite the fact I provided several to the contrary. Mass shootings were a big issue, they just don't compare to the US's ridiculous level.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/australia-20-years-after-gun-reform-no-mass-shootings-declining-firearm-deaths
And if memory serves you made that exact assault weapons claim before, and retracted it when I provided the actual numbers. Typical number of deaths (outlier omitted) was reduced, and even that outlier didn't reach the peaks seen outside he ban.

I didnt retract that. In fact here's an article on it.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-notes-on-claims-about-australias.html?m=1

While I will retract the "mass" in mass shootings the fact remains that there are shootings in Australia.

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Wouldn't being shot be considered a violent crime as well?
More likely to be considered murder.

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Actually as this link shows the 2 million cases of defensive gun use is valid.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/myth-3-25-million-defensive-gun-uses-each-year-cant-be-accurate
Look. Pay attention. That link only covers one possible issue, and if you look at the actual numbers:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262
If the NCVS is accurate, then the best possible case scenario (of cases where a home was robbed when the owner was present and awake, assuming every burglar robbed a home with a gun owner and every homeowner used their gun) accounts for 21.3% of the people who claimed to do so. That's less than a quarter. No amount of minor errors in the NCVS is going to account for a gap of that size. Telescoping and false reporting are pretty much required.

You're assuming that all cases of DGU (defensive gun use) was in response to burglaries. We have rapes, attempted murders, kidnappings, muggings, etc.

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And regardless this is all irrelevant because of the fact you keep ignoring:
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/defensive-gun-use-armed-with-reason-hemenway/
Comparing situations where people used a gun to when people didn't, there is no meaningful benefit to using a gun. Read that fact. Pay attention to it. Stop ignoring it. if you want to have a discussion you actually have to engage. Anecdotes of people using a gun, or even accounts of people using a gun, don't mean a thing because no one's denying that guns can be used in self-defence, there's just no benefit compared to the alternatives.

What alternatives? A stun gun is best used in offense to subdue someone or if your opponent is an 80 year old grandma beating you with a purse because you're taking too long in line. When your life is in danger you need lethal force. After this post I'll post a video explaining it better. Also here's Kleck's response.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/02/defensive-gun-ownership-gary-kleck-response-115082

And here's some more gun myths debunked for added measure.

http://louderwithcrowder.com/top-5-myths-public-shootings-gun-control/

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A license doesn't ensure safety. Drive through Chicago and you'll see my point. A license is permission from the government to excercise a right promised to me by the constitution. In fact I'm willing the bet that percentage wise there are more responsible gun owners then there are lisenced drivers.
For what to be more accessible? Cars? I would say that you shouldn't need a license to drive. The license doesn't ensure that you're a safe driver. It only shows that you memorized traffic laws for the test and were on your best behavior during the road test. I think a better solution is you take responsibility on the road and if you cause damage to someone else then you pay out of your own pocket double the amount to repair it. The idea of potentially paying for two new cars if you cause an accident would keep people on there toes.
Getting a license also shows you know how to use a car. Admittedly I don't know how it is in the US, but in the UK there's the theory portion, and a section in the practical where, for example, you have to know how to identify certain issues with a car, such as how to refill the windscreen cleaner. You need to know how to use something before you can be trusted with it. Memorising the laws, memorising the guidelines of how to use something, is a good thing.
And seriously, making drivers, particularly new drivers, perpetually nervous is not going to reduce accidents in the slightest.

All the more reason to pay attention and to be absolutely sure before hitting the road. Here in my state to get a permit (a licensed driver over 21 must be riding shotgun with you) all you have to do is past the written exam. Legally as soon one past he can jump in a car, drive cross country, and the guy riding shotgun doesn't do a thing to aid in his driving.

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Guards of major places like Downing Street and Buckingham Palace have to protect sizeable grounds rather than a few tiny rooms. Pretty different.
And your point is?
That trained guards protecting sizeable grounds from meaningful threats have a use for long-range weapons. Homeowners who can typically cross the largest room in their house in seconds, less so.

Our SWAT teams accross America our arming themselves with M4 and AR carbines because it penetrates less walls than pistol rounds. So howmowners have as much if not more reason to own such weaponry since they don't know how many intruders there are and there intentions. Also most homeowners don't have backup.

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If she's too slow to draw then wouldn't she be too slow to run and hide? I'm not advocating going out and confronting the intruder but it'll be a little nerve racking for me if I had to depend on my hiding skills.
She'd be too slow to run and hide only if she's in the same room as the burglar, in which case trying to draw a gun wouldn't do any good either. Sure, hiding might be nerve wracking, pretty sure having a gun pointed at you would be the same, as would seriously injuring another human being with the potential of killing them.

Better him than me. I'm quote sure that even as slow grandma is she still can draw faster than hiding, calling the police, and explaining to them what's happening.

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Actually I found something interesting. It's easier to get an illegal firearm in England than it is to get one here.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/192/smuggling_guns_and_ammunition/194
That's about smuggling, not illegal firearms in general.

I thought smuggling would entail that.

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There's not going to be much smuggling in the US because it's utterly unnecessary. Most can legally own one, and those that can't could borrow a friend's. Hardly compares.

Which the latter would be considered smuggling. The fact is your gun laws aren't denting the smuggling industry.

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How much is a few?
No idea, it's late, i'll look up the article again later if you want. Had to go through a few citations to find, and not easy to find references before/after bills were enacted etc.

Ok.

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Which happens mostly at gun free zones. There have been cases where would be mass shootings were thwarted by law abiding citizens who were armed.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/oregon-shooting-gun-laws-213222
Very rarely the case. Some lie (a lot of shooters seem to kill themselves), some work concurrently with the police, some get killed themselves in the attempt, some nearly kill the wrong person...

I'll com back with a link disproving that.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.