Orlando shooting, thoughts?

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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #180 on: July 10, 2016, 07:24:58 AM »
As for the "studio" argument, unless we are going to profess an expertise in live broadcast production, I don't think anything other than agnosticism is appropriate.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #181 on: July 10, 2016, 07:26:52 AM »


Btw, only a shill would defend that bullshit...

But don't worry, you won't be banned; this forum is your special shill safe-space isn't it?

Shilling is not against the rules.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 07:36:24 AM by Rama Set »
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #182 on: July 10, 2016, 12:54:08 PM »


Btw, only a shill would defend that bullshit...

But don't worry, you won't be banned; this forum is your special shill safe-space isn't it?

Shilling is not against the rules.

Thank goodness too. I get paid $1000 per word shilling this forum. In fact it's the only one I get paid on so if there's a rule against shilling then I'm out of a job. Sorry for the delay Jane. Subscription issues.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #183 on: July 10, 2016, 01:13:39 PM »
Thank goodness too. I get paid $1000 per word shilling this forum. In fact it's the only one I get paid on so if there's a rule against shilling then I'm out of a job. Sorry for the delay Jane. Subscription issues.
It's fine, shilling's always the priority.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #184 on: July 10, 2016, 04:57:19 PM »
Lets see your definition of a violent crime compared to ours.

https://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/

This page has an apples to apples comparison of crime in the UK and the US.  It provides sources for statistics as well as the definitions and criteria used for what data is included.

I noticed that your still more likely to be raped and knifed in the UK than we are.

You mis read. Robbery and knife crimes are higher in the UK. Everything else is higher in the US with murders and assaults more prevalent by an order of magnitude than the more susceptible crimes in the UK.

Even then what would be the cause of a higher robbery rate? Just something to bring up but when your hangun ban took place gun crimes skyrocketed before dropping and I've yet to find out why it plummeted but my guess is more policing rather than criminals turning in their guns.

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Does that mean you should ban or restrict knives?

No, because knives are used for purposes aside from killing.

It doesn't really matter the purpose of something. Guns on one hand are designed to send projectiles at its intended target. Whether it be cardboard, animal, or human. On the other hand sportscars are specifically designed to go fast. Should we ban them since you can't legally in the USA put the pedal to the metal?

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Plus that site didnt compare hot burglaries to us which is higher.

http://futurewire.blogspot.com/2004/12/home-invasions-us-vs-uk.html?m=1

These are robberies which are covered.

Ok.

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I will say that we do have a higher murder rate but its by gangs in large gun restrictive cities like New York and Chicago.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html

Nope. Chicago, New York and LA actually do not have a high murder rate for their population:

Big Cities With The Highest Murder Rates

St. Louis, Missouri 49.91
Detroit, Michigan 43.52
New Orleans, Louisiana 38.75
Baltimore, Maryland 33.84
Newark, New Jersey 33.32
Buffalo, New York 23.22
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 22.43
Memphis, Tennessee 21.38
Atlanta, Georgia 20.47
Cincinati, Ohio 20.16

Chicago had a murder rate of 15.09, New York had a rate of 3.93 and Los Angeles had a rate of 6.66 (well, 6.65511 if you don’t round to the nearest hundredth).



You will notice quite a few cities with loose gun laws on that list, including St. Louis, the 2014 winner.

Actually only a few if any of the cities listed had loose gun laws. Detroit for example has restrictive gun laws and high crime. If anything you only proved that guns do not contribute to high crime rates. Plus even if all of them had loose gun laws what is that saying? That everybody goes to cities to commit crimes because of loose guns laws while leaving the rest of the state alone?

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Can we please get rid of this myth that gun laws make murder more prevalent? 

Yes and no. Yes, more gun laws doesn't automatically make crime more prevalent. No, while it doesn't automatically contributes it still contributes more often than not. Probably for every country you list that gun control "works" I can find maybe 5 that didn't.

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Why don't you pay more attention to poverty and marginalization statistics?

That's what I've been saying all along. Guns aren't the problem.

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I would bet money that most of these murders are occuring in poor, ghettoized neighborhoods with poor community support, whether social or governmental.

I would too.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #185 on: July 10, 2016, 05:01:44 PM »
I forgot to add links to my last post.

Here's some stats on Chicago compared to the national average.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Chicago-Illinois.html

Here's something about gun laws in Detroit.

https://m.mic.com/articles/22835/gun-control-facts-detroit-crime-rate-is-the-result-of-gun-control
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #186 on: July 10, 2016, 05:18:31 PM »
HA!!!!!!!!!!! Just more and more proof that guns KILL pepel and need to be BANED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was going to ignore this (regretting it now as I type) because of the spelling errors but I decided to give it a shot (pun intended). If guns kill people do pencils or keyboards misspell words? And if we are going to ban guns lets first start with the president's bodyguards. You see, in order to ban guns you need guns to enforce that ban. Plus look at the results of bans. Hitler, Stalin, pol pot, etc.
Furst off I spel flippin fine BIRD FOR BRANES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming sarcasm for the moment. However in case you aren't being sarcastic get a dictionary or spell check.

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Im saying ban guns for the PUBLICK, not Mr. Presidint Barack Obama (the Grete)s bodeygards you flippin IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why? If we are to endure gun confiscation then so should the president. After all if gun bans are so effective then after the gun ban he has nothing to fear. Plus, I'm having a hard time believing that a flat earther who believes the government is corrupted and lying to us about even the very shape of our earth should have all the guns.

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Howevur I do beleive the police shuld be disarmd sinse that they obvousley cant be trustid not to targit pepel of coler like myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you think guns is what makes a cop moral or not? Does the gun have some sort of spirit that attaches to the owner? And again, if you can't trust the government with guns then who can you trust?

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And Hitler and Stalin arent the same flippin thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How are they NOT the same thing?

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Maybe your just a IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess you should know since you are one.


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BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[golf clap]

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Wile were talking abowt the shortcumings of gun nut IDIOTS, I think we shuld discus the fact that gun shop ownurs shuld be held crimanuley acowntabul for the crimes comitid using them!!!!!!!!!!

If someone does 200 mph in a 20 mph zone in a Lamborghini, is Lamborghini accountable for him breaking the speed limit?
Cars are difrint. They arent bilt to flippin KILL pepel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *drops mike*!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But they are built for speed and kill more people accidentally than guns.

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As well as the legislaters that alow these gun nuts to go buy guns and KILL pepel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most of the crime are done with illegal guns. Nobody is allowing criminals to shoot up people. I just discovered a new reason why I ignored you at first. You're so easy to beat.
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*BEEP* RONGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most shotings are by your tipicul wite privligd rascist redneck targiting pepel of coler (such as myself) and LGBTQQ2 individuels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The guy at Orlando was Muslim born to migrants. There are more black on black and black on white crimes than white on blacks. And I can only think of one shooting that was targeted against blacks. Plus even if you are targeted shouldn't that be more reason to get a gun and defend yourself?

And the reson why ilegal guns are geting owt is becuz legal gun makurs are giveing them the guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No they aren't. Criminals get guns via straw purchase, black market, or stealing them. Try getting a gun without a background check.

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Well looks like wunce agen youve goten your bootey bahind handid over to you by the EXCELSIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Says the douche!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the contrary, I've defeated you. And no comment on the last one. If you want to call yourself that then go right ahead.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 06:15:35 PM by Luke 22:35-38 »
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #187 on: July 10, 2016, 06:04:25 PM »

Even then what would be the cause of a higher robbery rate? Just something to bring up but when your hangun ban took place gun crimes skyrocketed before dropping and I've yet to find out why it plummeted but my guess is more policing rather than criminals turning in their guns.
1. I'm Canadian. 2. You're probably right 3. Why would you expect otherwise?

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It doesn't really matter the purpose of something. Guns on one hand are designed to send projectiles at its intended target. Whether it be cardboard, animal, or human. On the other hand sportscars are specifically designed to go fast. Should we ban them since you can't legally in the USA put the pedal to the metal?
of course it matters. Guns have no redeeming value except causing injury and harm. Knives have multiple different values that mitigate the small number of incidents vs the total times knives are used everyday. As for your sports car analogy, this is just a straw man; I have never said guns should be banned. For an accurate analogy, I would agree that the use of extremely fast cars should be limited in public.



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Actually only a few if any of the cities listed had loose gun laws. Detroit for example has restrictive gun laws and high crime. If anything you only proved that guns do not contribute to high crime rates. Plus even if all of them had loose gun laws what is that saying? That everybody goes to cities to commit crimes because of loose guns laws while leaving the rest of the state alone?

No, it says that cities is where most violent crime happens.

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Yes and no. Yes, more gun laws doesn't automatically make crime more prevalent.

Great!

[quite]No, while it doesn't automatically contributes it still contributes more often than not.

Source?

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Probably for every country you list that gun control "works" I can find maybe 5 that didn't.

Great, I will start: Canada.

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That's what I've been saying all along. Guns aren't the problem.

They are part of the problem.

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I would too.

Guns are not doing these people any favors. Let's make sure only responsible people can get them and work on the other issues at the same time.
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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #188 on: July 10, 2016, 06:10:44 PM »
Yet we still aren't on the top 25 on most violent nations. And that's the price of freedom.
Given that most of the top 25 most violent and dangerous countries are at war, not exactly a meaningful comparison.

You said "most", meaning they are some who aren't at war.

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Not all that hard to do especially to those trained. We don't hear of too many friendly fire incidents with citizens carrying guns.
Oh believe me there are plenty of accidents, just not many relating to the situation you described because it's such an unlikely situation.

Actually accidents are rather low. Only about 500 per year are fatal and only about 19,000 injured. That's with a population of at least 80 million gun owners and 400 million privately owned guns known. Compare that to say cars with I believe 200 million registered cars and licensed drivers with a staggering 2 million injuries and 32-37,000 fatalities and gun accidents are minute.

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Probably very few. When you're determined enough to greatly harm or murder someone few things deter you like lethal force.
How many burglars do you imagine break in to try and hurt or murder someone? Generally they'll just be trying to steal something and get away with it. Knock them out, problem solved.

Yet they are in my house while I'm in it. If they staked out the area as you said they probably knew I was inside during the break in.

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Then why are we talking about guns?
Only because nobody shoots back. Interesting fact that up to 92% of mass shootings happens at gun free zones. Why would that be the case?
Because they're undeniably part of the problem. Something does't have to be the sole cause to be the contributing factor. Given that you have a simply absurd amount of gun violence, and that none of the situations you're complaining about are helped by guns, it's a pretty clear conclusion that they do more harm than good.
It happens at gun free zones because shooters aren't idiots. Of course they'd go for where people couldn't fight back as stereotypically easily (note; it's the impression that matters more than the reality). What do you propose, give every student a gun and hope that sorts out school shootings?
If they are old enough then I would allow it. If I ran a private school I would require it.

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Give teachers readily accessible weapons and pray no disgruntled student picks it up?

The teachers could carry them. Plus if some disgruntled student manages to take the teachers gun and start shooting at best he would only shoot up his  own class. The other teachers would hear the shooting and either intervine or defend their positions.

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Let drunken people in night clubs wave them around?

Have designated defenders. It works with cars doesn't it? Not everybody at a bar drinks. Plus there are already states that allow carrying in bars and don't hear much of an uproar.

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There are always going to need to be gun free zones.

Why?

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The only reason mass shootings happen there is because the shooter could easily pick up a gun somewhere else.

The only reason why they happen us because people can't/won't defend themselves.

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I don't know since I'm not on the wrong side of the law but I'm willing to guess that it envolves straw purchases and gang membership.
Bingo: you don't know. Even if it does involve gang membership, any idea where a gang is and how to join it? Awful lot of work for a one-off shooting or a minor edge in a burglary or whatever.

You forgot straw purchases. A legal person buying for an illegal person.

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Seems to me like banning guns is actually going to have a pretty substantial effect.

Every gun ban was enforced with government with guns and ended with death by criminals or criminal government.

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For the same reason why I lock my doors, buckle my seatbelt, have insurance, etc. precuation. And also my username.
So if you need to take precaution, why not take the precaution of not having a gun-wielding maniac bursting into your house?

I do, by having a gun. When seconds count the police are just minutes away.

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If its on you, your children would have to be very sneaky or bold to try and take it from your holster especially if its concealed.
Have you ever been near a child? They grab at anything that interests them. Lift up a toddler, as many parents do, they'd happily end up feeling it.

Can you point to a specific instance of that happening. Gun accidents by themselves are at a all time low and most gun accidents by children are from the result of unsecured guns found in drawers and such. Not only that but a lot of the times the parent thought it was better to hide the gun, this inducing a forbidden fruit mentality for the child rather than teaching the child the safety rules and letting them handle them with supervision and only under supervision.

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And the holster has to come off at some point.

Usually when its time to go to bed. Then it can go into a quick access safe.

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And of course there are other issues: like jumpiness, because you'd need to shoot first if there was a home invader, so let's see how that can end. Note of course, if she hadn't shot first, and there was actually an armed burglar coming in, she could be dead.

Note the article said more training is needed rather than banning guns. Plus for every one incident like that there are hundreds to thousands of successful defensive gun uses.

https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP11.pdf

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

How come when I post to a thread listing the many times guns are used in defense it's all anecdotes but when you post to a rare incident it's the norm?


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Actually they are rather cheap.
What's your definition of cheap? The cheapest ones I can find are close to $100 if not more, which is a fair bit of money to burn, especially given you'd likely need more than one if you're meant to be able to quickly access it at any point in the house.

Most people in the "poverty" zone have a tv and car. I'm pretty sure if they can afford that they can save for a gun. You can get a decent shotgun for $200.

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I'm saying it could be worse.
So? We're talking about guns. if guns don't fix the problems, then it doesn't matter how worse it could be, guns aren't helping. Talk about all the worst-case scenarios you want, if guns won't help in the slightest in dealing with them, why do you want one?

Because they actually do help.

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It could be spontaneous. See a group of children cross the street and gun the engine.
Like I said, unlikely, both in terms of timing and motive. And if it's spontaneous, there wouldn't be much time to accelerate so there's actually less chance of a fatal incident than, you know, wandering down the street, seeing a group of children, and shooting.

Ok, but exactly how many spontaneous shootings without cause happen? Keep in mind just how many gun owners and guns are there in the US.

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Not if I situate myself to not be the first target. If you'll notice police don't like to be near windows or have their backs to the main entrance.
Do you spend every waking second working out what'd happen if someone immediately pulled out a gun and started shooting and acting as such?

No, what I do is run a plan for a particular scenario, keep it in the back of my head, and carry on with my business.

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if not, that's not much of a helpful addition. if so, seems as though there are plenty of dangerous side-effects to guns.

Like what?

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They are a lot of anecdotes that stack into stats. And the stats are that up to 2 million cases a year someone defended himself with a gun.
And yet you still have statistically more murders etc in comparison to use, of a more significant amount than we have violent crime more than you, and our definition of violent crime is substantially looser.
That is, four times the murder rate vs three times the violent crime rate, and the latter is severely biased towards you.
So a lot of anecdotes that don't give the full picture, and give no indication as to how much easier it would've been if, you know, the assailant didn't have a gun too. You know you can defend yourself with ways other than a gun, right?

Actually defensive gun use happens more often than crime with a gun even on conservative levels.

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Yeah, about that...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/
So? All that really says is mass shootings occur elsewhere. It agrees that the US has far more and far more deaths due to such shootings.
If your argument has become "Well at least we're not the worst place in the world," that really says it all.

It was saying that per victim Finland has more.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #189 on: July 10, 2016, 06:12:06 PM »
Could you fix your post Ram? Thank you.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #190 on: July 11, 2016, 04:49:48 AM »
I live in Spain, a country a bit more restrictive on guns than USA. Here, to own a gun you must be in the police, Civil Guard or armed forces, be in extreme danger of assault or participate in gun sports. Not even private security guards can carry guns, other than those in charge of the protection of money, guns or in isolated areas, instances where they are supposed to be in extreme necessity of one.

Aside from them, gun possession is prohibited. Further on, even if you have a license, the number, kind and ammunition you can use is restricted. Military intended weapons are banned. Incendiary, armor-pearcing and expanding ammunition is also prohibited.

And here's the comparative rate during the 90's for gun mortality:



https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/spain.php

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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #191 on: July 11, 2016, 05:24:10 AM »
You said "most", meaning they are some who aren't at war.
No, it means "I don't know what list you're using and didn't want to go through every country on every one." And quite frankly if your argument is "We're not quite as bad as places in the middle of a civil war!" you're still not doing wonders for the merits of guns.

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Actually accidents are rather low. Only about 500 per year are fatal and only about 19,000 injured. That's with a population of at least 80 million gun owners and 400 million privately owned guns known. Compare that to say cars with I believe 200 million registered cars and licensed drivers with a staggering 2 million injuries and 32-37,000 fatalities and gun accidents are minute.
I can tell you how to save 500 lives and prevent 19000 injuries. That not good enough?
Cars have another purpose, guns do not.

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Yet they are in my house while I'm in it. If they staked out the area as you said they probably knew I was inside during the break in.
That was giving you a best case scenario. A more likely case would be them waiting until you're out, at which point a gun wouldn't help, or going in during night in which case you'd need to be able to hear, need to have easy access to guns, no creaky floorboards...

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If they are old enough then I would allow it. If I ran a private school I would require it.
Ok, define old enough? Aside from the fact teenagers are hardly renowned as the most responsible group, what do you propose to do for the younger?

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The teachers could carry them. Plus if some disgruntled student manages to take the teachers gun and start shooting at best he would only shoot up his  own class. The other teachers would hear the shooting and either intervine or defend their positions.
A teacher can't carry it all through the working day. Do you propose they tape a pen to the end to write on the board?
And what is the culture like in America that losing a class full of children is 'acceptable losses?!'

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There are always going to need to be gun free zones.
Why?
Did you not read anything I just said?

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The only reason mass shootings happen there is because the shooter could easily pick up a gun somewhere else.
The only reason why they happen us because people can't/won't defend themselves.
They wouldn't need to defend themselves if there wasn't someone with a gun coming after them.

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You forgot straw purchases. A legal person buying for an illegal person.
Which can't happen if guns can't be legally bought.

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Every gun ban was enforced with government with guns and ended with death by criminals or criminal government.
Just what?

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For the same reason why I lock my doors, buckle my seatbelt, have insurance, etc. precuation. And also my username.
So if you need to take precaution, why not take the precaution of not having a gun-wielding maniac bursting into your house?
I do, by having a gun. When seconds count the police are just minutes away.
Seconds would count far more if you need an ambulance.

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Can you point to a specific instance of that happening. Gun accidents by themselves are at a all time low and most gun accidents by children are from the result of unsecured guns found in drawers and such. Not only that but a lot of the times the parent thought it was better to hide the gun, this inducing a forbidden fruit mentality for the child rather than teaching the child the safety rules and letting them handle them with supervision and only under supervision.
These for a start. Note that several occur, for example, when a parent is asleep: they can't watch it all the time, and if they want to be prepared for burglars as you insist they'd need it easily accessible. Others occur when the gun's in the car, because apparently people in America feel the need to carry them around outside despite the fact there are barely any incidents they could prevent in those cases.

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Usually when its time to go to bed. Then it can go into a quick access safe.
As before: not always accessible, not always usable especially if you need a quiet one, and only the fingerprint-type ones would be of any use because I remember being a kid, I worked out the passcodes to the keysafe etc around the house easily.

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Note the article said more training is needed rather than banning guns. Plus for every one incident like that there are hundreds to thousands of successful defensive gun uses.

https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP11.pdf

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

How come when I post to a thread listing the many times guns are used in defense it's all anecdotes but when you post to a rare incident it's the norm?
Because I don't exclusively post anecdotes, I provided plenty of statistics. When you ask for a specific example, I'll give a specific example. You've seen the raw numbers, and you've apparently decided a huge murder rate is better than a minor bump in less harmful crimes.


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Most people in the "poverty" zone have a tv and car. I'm pretty sure if they can afford that they can save for a gun. You can get a decent shotgun for $200.
Quotation marks, really? They mostly have a TV and car because the former are gifts and second hand, the latter are often required for work. A gun alone is fairly expensive, and then you'd want a good quick access safe that's the right size, and in turn only some of those would be particularly effective at keeping children out, and those are far more expensive. When you need to shell out that much (more than one gun, more than one good safe, bullets...) to be 'safe' from being shot in your country, maybe give it a rethink.

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Because they actually do help.
Not in any of the situations you gave, you said as much.

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Ok, but exactly how many spontaneous shootings without cause happen? Keep in mind just how many gun owners and guns are there in the US.
Over four fifths of all days seem to have a mass shooting in the US, so hey...

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if not, that's not much of a helpful addition. if so, seems as though there are plenty of dangerous side-effects to guns.

Like what?
Are you serious? Have you just missed what we've been talking about?

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Actually defensive gun use happens more often than crime with a gun even on conservative levels.
Actually it's rarer than you think,
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262
And still doesn't help that much:
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/defensive-gun-use-armed-with-reason-hemenway/
Like I said, you can use a gun in self-defence, sure, but it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of how many situations it works in. (How big is your house that you need a ranged weapon to defend it?!)

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It was saying that per victim Finland has more.
And also said "We’ll note that all of these countries had one or two particularly big attacks and have relatively small populations, which have pushed up their per-capita rates." Hardly representative.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #192 on: July 11, 2016, 08:45:40 PM »
I live in Spain, a country a bit more restrictive on guns than USA. Here, to own a gun you must be in the police, Civil Guard or armed forces, be in extreme danger of assault or participate in gun sports. Not even private security guards can carry guns, other than those in charge of the protection of money, guns or in isolated areas, instances where they are supposed to be in extreme necessity of one.

Aside from them, gun possession is prohibited. Further on, even if you have a license, the number, kind and ammunition you can use is restricted. Military intended weapons are banned. Incendiary, armor-pearcing and expanding ammunition is also prohibited.

And here's the comparative rate during the 90's for gun mortality:



https://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/spain.php

We may have higher gun deaths but what about homicides and violent crimes in general?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #193 on: July 11, 2016, 09:11:23 PM »
This website shows a comparison between both countries.

I'd like to highlight the ones you've mentioned:

Total crimes per 1000: Spain - 22.35   USA - 41.29

Murders per million people: Spain - 8.47   USA - 42.01

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #194 on: July 11, 2016, 09:43:05 PM »
You said "most", meaning they are some who aren't at war.
No, it means "I don't know what list you're using and didn't want to go through every country on every one." And quite frankly if your argument is "We're not quite as bad as places in the middle of a civil war!" you're still not doing wonders for the merits of guns.

Ok then.

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Actually accidents are rather low. Only about 500 per year are fatal and only about 19,000 injured. That's with a population of at least 80 million gun owners and 400 million privately owned guns known. Compare that to say cars with I believe 200 million registered cars and licensed drivers with a staggering 2 million injuries and 32-37,000 fatalities and gun accidents are minute.
I can tell you how to save 500 lives and prevent 19000 injuries. That not good enough?
Cars have another purpose, guns do not.

If you are propose a gun ban that's impossible for one. You are not going to get the criminals to surrender their guns. And two, every gun ban led to the deaths of citizens by its own government. As for guns not having any other purpose, for one that's really not the issue. I can argue that nobody needs cars and everybody should ride taxis, buses, trolleys, and trains. Two, guns are designed to shoot projectiles at its intended target. They provide a means of defense against aggressive animals and humans, provide a means of getting food, and a means of recreation. In other words guns are used for every legal and lawful purposes.

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Yet they are in my house while I'm in it. If they staked out the area as you said they probably knew I was inside during the break in.
That was giving you a best case scenario. A more likely case would be them waiting until you're out, at which point a gun wouldn't help, or going in during night in which case you'd need to be able to hear, need to have easy access to guns, no creaky floorboards...

I'm a pretty light sleeper, and I can have a gun on the nightstand in a quick access safe or by itself. And unless you have family in other rooms I highly advise you stay put and call the police but have the gun ready until they arrive.

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If they are old enough then I would allow it. If I ran a private school I would require it.
Ok, define old enough?

The legal age to carry in most states is 21. Some states allow 18 year olds to carry. Funny thing though that there's no blood running in the streets in the states that allow 18 year olds to carry. Interesting fact: you are more likely to be shot by police than a legal gun carrier.

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Aside from the fact teenagers are hardly renowned as the most responsible group, what do you propose to do for the younger?

There used to be a time when children would bring their hunting rifles to school and nobody shot anyone. But then it was at a time when children were mature and had morals. What I advise now is to have gun safety classes and shooting clubs.

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The teachers could carry them. Plus if some disgruntled student manages to take the teachers gun and start shooting at best he would only shoot up his  own class. The other teachers would hear the shooting and either intervine or defend their positions.
A teacher can't carry it all through the working day.

Actually a lot of people who carry do that.

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Do you propose they tape a pen to the end to write on the board?

I'm having trouble understanding this one.

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And what is the culture like in America that losing a class full of children is 'acceptable losses?!'

It's not acceptable, but it is better than having the entire school or a large part of it lost to an unhindered maniac.

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There are always going to need to be gun free zones.
Why?
Did you not read anything I just said?[/quote]

Yes, which is why I asked.

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The only reason mass shootings happen there is because the shooter could easily pick up a gun somewhere else.
The only reason why they happen us because people can't/won't defend themselves.
They wouldn't need to defend themselves if there wasn't someone with a gun coming after them.

Which is impossible to guarantee.

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You forgot straw purchases. A legal person buying for an illegal person.
Which can't happen if guns can't be legally bought.

Which again, that's something you can't promise.

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Every gun ban was enforced with government with guns and ended with death by criminals or criminal government.
Just what?

Gun bans leads to mass murders by both government and criminals.

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For the same reason why I lock my doors, buckle my seatbelt, have insurance, etc. precuation. And also my username.
So if you need to take precaution, why not take the precaution of not having a gun-wielding maniac bursting into your house?
I do, by having a gun. When seconds count the police are just minutes away.
Seconds would count far more if you need an ambulance.

What?

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Can you point to a specific instance of that happening. Gun accidents by themselves are at a all time low and most gun accidents by children are from the result of unsecured guns found in drawers and such. Not only that but a lot of the times the parent thought it was better to hide the gun, this inducing a forbidden fruit mentality for the child rather than teaching the child the safety rules and letting them handle them with supervision and only under supervision.
These for a start. Note that several occur, for example, when a parent is asleep: they can't watch it all the time, and if they want to be prepared for burglars as you insist they'd need it easily accessible.

As I said quick access safes are the solution to that.

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Others occur when the gun's in the car, because apparently people in America feel the need to carry them around outside despite the fact there are barely any incidents they could prevent in those cases.

Those weren't instances of people carrying guns. Those were instances of people storing guns improperly.

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Usually when its time to go to bed. Then it can go into a quick access safe.
As before: not always accessible, not always usable especially if you need a quiet one, and only the fingerprint-type ones would be of any use because I remember being a kid, I worked out the passcodes to the keysafe etc around the house easily.

Which probably led to things that you were never allowed to touch. Children won't feel the need to play with daddy's gun when they already know how to operate and fire it under supervision. That's the main way of teaching respect towards guns.

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Note the article said more training is needed rather than banning guns. Plus for every one incident like that there are hundreds to thousands of successful defensive gun uses.

https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP11.pdf

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

How come when I post to a thread listing the many times guns are used in defense it's all anecdotes but when you post to a rare incident it's the norm?
Because I don't exclusively post anecdotes, I provided plenty of statistics. When you ask for a specific example, I'll give a specific example. You've seen the raw numbers, and you've apparently decided a huge murder rate is better than a minor bump in less harmful crimes.

Our murder rate isn't caused by guns.

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Most people in the "poverty" zone have a tv and car. I'm pretty sure if they can afford that they can save for a gun. You can get a decent shotgun for $200.
Quotation marks, really? They mostly have a TV and car because the former are gifts and second hand, the latter are often required for work. A gun alone is fairly expensive, and then you'd want a good quick access safe that's the right size, and in turn only some of those would be particularly effective at keeping children out, and those are far more expensive. When you need to shell out that much (more than one gun, more than one good safe, bullets...) to be 'safe' from being shot in your country, maybe give it a rethink.

Most people in the poverty level are on welfare and refuse to work. Not only that but when you compare us to poorer counties then we really aren't that poor after all.

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Because they actually do help.
Not in any of the situations you gave, you said as much.

I was referring to things like robberies and assaults.

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Ok, but exactly how many spontaneous shootings without cause happen? Keep in mind just how many gun owners and guns are there in the US.
Over four fifths of all days seem to have a mass shooting in the US, so hey...

Of all days of what?

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if not, that's not much of a helpful addition. if so, seems as though there are plenty of dangerous side-effects to guns.

Like what?
Are you serious? Have you just missed what we've been talking about?

No.

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Actually defensive gun use happens more often than crime with a gun even on conservative levels.
Actually it's rarer than you think,
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262
And still doesn't help that much:
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/defensive-gun-use-armed-with-reason-hemenway/
Like I said, you can use a gun in self-defence, sure, but it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of how many situations it works in. (How big is your house that you need a ranged weapon to defend it?!)

The problem is they are only looking at homicides. Defensive gun use could mean that I show'd my gun and he fled. And when the assail isn't had a ranged weapon I would want the upper hand.

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It was saying that per victim Finland has more.
And also said "We’ll note that all of these countries had one or two particularly big attacks and have relatively small populations, which have pushed up their per-capita rates." Hardly representative.

So Finland would have a higher victim rate per capita than we do.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #195 on: July 12, 2016, 05:33:52 AM »
Ok, as this is starting to get unwieldy/long, I'm going to respond to the points that seem as though they're a more prominent/major topic, and would allow for an actual discussion. As it is, if I quoted I'd probably just end up with more one line snarks than meaningful comments.
Let me know if I missed anything you wanted to see a reply to.

First, an overview of the currently established facts.
The murder rate in, say, the UK, a country with strict gun control, is a quarter of that in the US: while the violent crime rate is technically three times greater: except the UK's definition of violent crime is much more lax, meaning the increase isn't really that large.
While guns could theoretically be used in self-defence, they provide no actual benefit. As far as preventing property theft or harm goes, you'd be better off hiding in your room and calling a police. Having a gun does not help: you saw the source for that last time, and I'm not sure why you said they were only talking about homicides, they weren't. (Plus accessible guns ensures anyone who breaks in will themselves be armed similarly).
Four out of every five days (Link refers to 5/6, but the figure they give is 0.006 from 4/5) in the US see a mass shooting: lone people using a gun to kill in a decision that simply wouldn't be possible to make if guns weren't accessible. Australia used to have mass shootings, albeit not on that scale, and after enacting gun control the number of them was reduced to a flat zero.

None of that is up for debate: they are brute facts.

An overview of what you've said, now:
Guns would not cause accidental harm, but only if they were accompanied by a number of secondary elements: presumably classes/lessons to teach proper storage and uses, fingerprint-type gun-safes... Presumably then, at the very least, you'd advocate the step of making it mandatory for people to pass certain tests to own a gun, so that they can store responsible etc. That's gun control: and it's exactly in line with what you're saying.
Things other than guns are dangerous: you said, for example, that your murder rate isn't due to guns. However, the only thing even close to guns just in terms of accessibility are cars, and not only do they have a purpose beyond causing grievous bodily harm, but you still need to pass a few tests to be able to own one: and they're only dangerous in certain locations. Plus guns don't help with them as a threat. If you're proposing the people who would go on shooting sprees would instead resort to hit and runs, I'd point out that'd still rule out disgruntled schoolkids killing their classmates in such a grand fashion: and that cars wouldn't last long like that. Plus the cliches of a mass shooting aren't possible: the killer can't kill themselves to escape capture, the killer can't target specific people... The only example of such a rampage I can think of anyway was the guy with the bulldozer in Colorado, 2004, and he still shot himself.
You mentioned also that police shoot more people than typical criminals, I'm not sure as to the source of that, but I would point out even in the UK police are rarely armed. We've had a total of 58 incidents where the police fired a gun over ten years(Germany fired all of 85 in just one year). And yet our crime rate isn't substantially larger than yours (once variations in definitions are accounted for). In the US, 90 bullets were shot into one person. They're authorised to use guns often, but they only need to less than 0.05% of the time it's allowed, generally. Just because it's a policeman holding a gun doesn't stop it being a gun problem: and I suspect the only reason they have such accessible guns is because they need to given the fact everyone they go up against would be armed themselves.

So, to conclude, the aftereffects of gun control.
You've said the criminals would keep their guns. As shown by, say, Australia and their hugely curtailed number of mass shootings (ie: reduced to zero), a lot of the dangerous people still don't have theirs. And they had a lot of the same rhetoric as America, lobbyists who opposed the idea, who were very vocal: and by now most seem to think they overreacted. And of course, how many criminals would keep a gun? Not all criminals are armed robbers or killers etc. Most would only be armed because they were afraid of their victim having a gun too: and generally burglars and the like need to keep a close watch on the law most of the time to avoid getting caught. And of course, once bullets are no longer sold there are only so many times you can use a gun, especially if you want to get in training to actually be able to aim.
So, the worst case scenario is a slight spike in crime shortly after gun control is enacted: but that'd wear out quickly once the new status quo gets adjusted to, and the handful that kept guns would be caught. We've been over how getting guns illegally is hardly doable for your average criminal once they're not sold on every street. As such, it is very easy to promise a hugely reduced proportion of criminals will themselves have firearms. How many people would keep a gun on the offchance they want to get into housebreaking one day? How many career criminals even would want to keep firearms around knowing it's an instant arrest?
Last issue's your claim "every gun ban led to the deaths of citizens by its own government." Love to see a source so I know what you're trying to refer to. Can't say much otherwise. I mean there's the fact the Second Amendment was originally written so citizens could create a militia to overthrow the government, but that's not really feasible nowadays because if your government did decide to end up malevolent, a handgun wouldn't do much against a drone strike.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #196 on: July 12, 2016, 02:41:40 PM »
Ok, as this is starting to get unwieldy/long, I'm going to respond to the points that seem as though they're a more prominent/major topic, and would allow for an actual discussion. As it is, if I quoted I'd probably just end up with more one line snarks than meaningful comments.

I didn't intended them to be snarks but my apologies if they were received that way.

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Let me know if I missed anything you wanted to see a reply to.

Ok, but looking at your post it seems to be longer than my response. But then again you are deleting the previous quotes to save space and that can be time consuming.

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First, an overview of the currently established facts.
The murder rate in, say, the UK, a country with strict gun control, is a quarter of that in the US: while the violent crime rate is technically three times greater: except the UK's definition of violent crime is much more lax, meaning the increase isn't really that large.

When comparing specific crimes such as robbery as Rama set linked to it shows that you have a higher rate than we do. Not only that but as I said before your gun crimes skyrocketed just after the gun ban. It was only due to more police being hired to quell it did it went down. Plus on the same token our crime rate is plummeting and yet guns sales are rising. I'm not saying that's the cause but it does dispels the myth of more guns equals more crime.

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While guns could theoretically be used in self-defence, they provide no actual benefit. As far as preventing property theft or harm goes, you'd be better off hiding in your room and calling a police.

They provide great benefits. Just read the stories I've linked. In fact a lot of them had they not been armed they wouldn't be here today. Plus I'm not about to wait for the police without something to hold the assailants off if they get to me before the police.

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Having a gun does not help: you saw the source for that last time, and I'm not sure why you said they were only talking about homicides, they weren't.

I didn't see that, but the link I gave refuted that. Kleck's studies are peered reviewed and sound. Even Wikipedia quoted someone on the other side saying such.


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(Plus accessible guns ensures anyone who breaks in will themselves be armed similarly).
Quick access safes can be anchored.

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Four out of every five days (Link refers to 5/6, but the figure they give is 0.006 from 4/5) in the US see a mass shooting: lone people using a gun to kill in a decision that simply wouldn't be possible to make if guns weren't accessible.
Actually that's been the average for a long time. In fact it spiked during the assault weapons ban.

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Australia used to have mass shootings, albeit not on that scale, and after enacting gun control the number of them was reduced to a flat zero.

None of that is up for debate: they are brute facts.

Actually they can. Australia had ten mass shootings since the ban and their crime went up.

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An overview of what you've said, now:
Guns would not cause accidental harm, but only if they were accompanied by a number of secondary elements: presumably classes/lessons to teach proper storage and uses, fingerprint-type gun-safes... Presumably then, at the very least, you'd advocate the step of making it mandatory for people to pass certain tests to own a gun, so that they can store responsible etc.

It's one thing to advocate. I'm all for more training and securing guns in safes. It's another to mandate it. There are states with no requirements to train in order to carry and we don't see a spike in accidents. Also you can't enforce a mandatory safe storage without infringing on many rights. And that's another thing. Our constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms so any law banning guns is a infringement.

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That's gun control: and it's exactly in line with what you're saying.

The difference is I advocate but you want it to mandatory. You can't mandate responsibility.

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Things other than guns are dangerous: you said, for example, that your murder rate isn't due to guns. However, the only thing even close to guns just in terms of accessibility are cars, and not only do they have a purpose beyond causing grievous bodily harm, but you still need to pass a few tests to be able to own one: and they're only dangerous in certain locations. Plus guns don't help with them as a threat. If you're proposing the people who would go on shooting sprees would instead resort to hit and runs, I'd point out that'd still rule out disgruntled schoolkids killing their classmates in such a grand fashion: and that cars wouldn't last long like that. Plus the cliches of a mass shooting aren't possible: the killer can't kill themselves to escape capture, the killer can't target specific people... The only example of such a rampage I can think of anyway was the guy with the bulldozer in Colorado, 2004, and he still shot himself.

Before guns we killed each with knives and swords.

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You mentioned also that police shoot more people than typical criminals, I'm not sure as to the source of that, but I would point out even in the UK police are rarely armed. We've had a total of 58 incidents where the police fired a gun over ten years

I'm not sure where I said that but I think I was trying to say that police kill more people than law abiding armed citizens here in the US.

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(Germany fired all of 85 in just one year). And yet our crime rate isn't substantially larger than yours (once variations in definitions are accounted for). In the US, 90 bullets were shot into one person. They're authorised to use guns often, but they only need to less than 0.05% of the time it's allowed, generally. Just because it's a policeman holding a gun doesn't stop it being a gun problem: and I suspect the only reason they have such accessible guns is because they need to given the fact everyone they go up against would be armed themselves.

Which is exactly why I want to arm myself. The police responds to the same scenarios as the civilian victims. Even if you are to say that tomorrow all guns are banned how are you going to do it? Their are at least 400 million privately owned guns and at least 80 million gun owners. Most of our military and police will refuse to obey and confiscate the weapons on moral and safety basis.

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So, to conclude, the aftereffects of gun control.
You've said the criminals would keep their guns. As shown by, say, Australia and their hugely curtailed number of mass shootings (ie: reduced to zero), a lot of the dangerous people still don't have theirs. And they had a lot of the same rhetoric as America, lobbyists who opposed the idea, who were very vocal: and by now most seem to think they overreacted. And of course, how many criminals would keep a gun? Not all criminals are armed robbers or killers etc. Most would only be armed because they were afraid of their victim having a gun too: and generally burglars and the like need to keep a close watch on the law most of the time to avoid getting caught. And of course, once bullets are no longer sold there are only so many times you can use a gun, especially if you want to get in training to actually be able to aim.

As pointed out they actually had ten mass shootings since the ban and their crime rate went up. If you ban guns here there would be a civil war or a dead law unenforced.

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So, the worst case scenario is a slight spike in crime shortly after gun control is enacted: but that'd wear out quickly once the new status quo gets adjusted to, and the handful that kept guns would be caught.

Actually it was a rather large spike in crimes.

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We've been over how getting guns illegally is hardly doable for your average criminal once they're not sold on every street. As such, it is very easy to promise a hugely reduced proportion of criminals will themselves have firearms. How many people would keep a gun on the offchance they want to get into housebreaking one day?

If it works so well then why isn't it working with Mexico?

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How many career criminals even would want to keep firearms around knowing it's an instant arrest?
Last issue's your claim "every gun ban led to the deaths of citizens by its own government." Love to see a source so I know what you're trying to refer to.

Nazi germany, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

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Can't say much otherwise. I mean there's the fact the Second Amendment was originally written so citizens could create a militia to overthrow the government, but that's not really feasible nowadays because if your government did decide to end up malevolent, a handgun wouldn't do much against a drone strike.

The second amendment also allows for the private citizen to own guns. Also as shown in Vietnam guerrilla warfare works. It works especially when the other side are hesitant to fire on their own people and it works even more when a large portion of the other side defects and bring some of the goodies. Plus if what your saying is true then that would be even more reason to have more and bigger guns.
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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #197 on: July 12, 2016, 03:33:14 PM »
Robbery may be 25% higher in UK but murders are 300% higher in the US. Think about that... 300% is a massive difference. You guys have the highest rates of homicide in the western world and don't think that every country that has a -much- lower rate has anything valuable to say on the topic. It's weird, in my kindest evaluation.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #198 on: July 12, 2016, 05:49:53 PM »
Looks like my answers were ignored. It's okay, I'm used to it by now. I'd like to point out my government hasn't mass murdered anyone yet, and the gun law here is a ban to all guns, with little exception.

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #199 on: July 12, 2016, 09:10:16 PM »
This website shows a comparison between both countries.

I'd like to highlight the ones you've mentioned:

Total crimes per 1000: Spain - 22.35   USA - 41.29

Murders per million people: Spain - 8.47   USA - 42.01

Are you comparing the entire United States or states with gun laws similar to yours?
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #200 on: July 12, 2016, 09:12:59 PM »
Robbery may be 25% higher in UK but murders are 300% higher in the US. Think about that... 300% is a massive difference. You guys have the highest rates of homicide in the western world and don't think that every country that has a -much- lower rate has anything valuable to say on the topic. It's weird, in my kindest evaluation.

That's becuase of the gang violence. It would be interesting to see a comparison between states with similar gun laws as you are.
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Rama Set

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #201 on: July 13, 2016, 11:56:33 AM »
Robbery may be 25% higher in UK but murders are 300% higher in the US. Think about that... 300% is a massive difference. You guys have the highest rates of homicide in the western world and don't think that every country that has a -much- lower rate has anything valuable to say on the topic. It's weird, in my kindest evaluation.

That's becuase of the gang violence. It would be interesting to see a comparison between states with similar gun laws as you are.

I've heard this said, but never any proof that your high murder rate is exclusively due to gangs. We have gangs in Toronti as well. And you will never find a comparable place for gun laws because of the Brady law.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #202 on: July 13, 2016, 01:20:40 PM »
This website shows a comparison between both countries.

I'd like to highlight the ones you've mentioned:

Total crimes per 1000: Spain - 22.35   USA - 41.29

Murders per million people: Spain - 8.47   USA - 42.01

Are you comparing the entire United States or states with gun laws similar to yours?

Not even the strictest state (California) is even close to Spanish gun laws. You simply can't buy a gun in Spain unless you're in extreme danger of assault (and have proven it).

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #203 on: July 13, 2016, 02:05:14 PM »
Robbery may be 25% higher in UK but murders are 300% higher in the US. Think about that... 300% is a massive difference. You guys have the highest rates of homicide in the western world and don't think that every country that has a -much- lower rate has anything valuable to say on the topic. It's weird, in my kindest evaluation.

That's becuase of the gang violence. It would be interesting to see a comparison between states with similar gun laws as you are.

I've heard this said, but never any proof that your high murder rate is exclusively due to gangs. We have gangs in Toronti as well. And you will never find a comparable place for gun laws because of the Brady law.

Then here's some evidence.

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Symptom

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #204 on: July 13, 2016, 07:07:33 PM »
Just saying: Anyone who has a profile picture of a gun on top of a bible has to be a troll.

I'd take it seriously anywhere else. But here on the FES? Fuck no. Trollolololol.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #205 on: July 13, 2016, 07:11:19 PM »
Also; is that a Glock on that bible? A shitty plastic girls-gun made in pinko socialist europe? Get a fucking grip.

At least make it a 1911 or a S&W Model 29 or something. It's like you're not even trying. Commie.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 07:13:29 PM by Symptom »
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #206 on: July 13, 2016, 09:14:59 PM »
Just saying: Anyone who has a profile picture of a gun on top of a bible has to be a troll.

I'd take it seriously anywhere else. But here on the FES?  no. Trollolololol.

I use it as a signature sorta. People will know I'm the same person. I'm in several other forums and have the the same avatar. Also I could say the same thing about your avatar.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #207 on: July 14, 2016, 12:59:15 AM »
You could say what about my avatar? Please elaborate.
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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #208 on: July 14, 2016, 01:02:48 AM »
And again: A Glock? Seriously? There are so many awesome guns to choose from, and you go with that plastic piece of crap?

Baby Jesus does not approve.
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Slemon

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Re: Orlando shooting, thoughts?
« Reply #209 on: July 14, 2016, 06:24:00 AM »
I didn't intended them to be snarks but my apologies if they were received that way.

Ok, but looking at your post it seems to be longer than my response. But then again you are deleting the previous quotes to save space and that can be time consuming.
I was talking about my posts too: but generally one-line points can hardly be in depth. The idea was just to try to refresh it, get the topics into vaguely organised sections rather than popping up multiple times over a post, and ideally I was hoping we wouldn't get into a debate on the brute facts which would certainly shrink the posts, but hey  :P

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When comparing specific crimes such as robbery as Rama set linked to it shows that you have a higher rate than we do. Not only that but as I said before your gun crimes skyrocketed just after the gun ban. It was only due to more police being hired to quell it did it went down. Plus on the same token our crime rate is plummeting and yet guns sales are rising. I'm not saying that's the cause but it does dispels the myth of more guns equals more crime.
Aside from the fact robbery is notably less severe than, you know, murder, that's still pretty much covered by what I said.
But sure, let's look at stats. The year in the UK is 1997 where firearms were banned:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control
There are several instances there. And sure, you see the rate of crimes involving guns increasing from that date: wow, does that refute everything I've been saying? Not really, because note what the statistics are actually saying. It is the quantity of offences involving guns, not the quality of them. Nothing like, for example, the school shooting that prompted the gun laws have happened since. Someone firing once into the air as a warning shot would be counted as an offence on that list: and would certainly happen more frequently because after that point a gun would become a more efficient means of intimidation. It doesn't mean more people were hurt.
And regardless, even if you could point out that this in fact means even more gun crime happened, and people went around shooting everyone, you just need to look further ahead to see the rate plummets. Not slowly decreases, outright plummets.
Skip down to Scotland, beyond an 05-07 year increase (which was a bad year for crime all around here) the average since the tremendous spike in crime before the gun laws were enacted, there's an undeniable decrease of the average, which would only be more obvious if more data was shown on what came before.
And honestly the homicide rates compared by country says a lot.
Then go down to Australia, the time of the gun control enacted there is marked and you can see a very clear decrease. And you can see yet another source for the fact Australia has had zero mass shootings since the ban, I have no idea why you claimed they had ten.


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While guns could theoretically be used in self-defence, they provide no actual benefit. As far as preventing property theft or harm goes, you'd be better off hiding in your room and calling a police.
They provide great benefits. Just read the stories I've linked. In fact a lot of them had they not been armed they wouldn't be here today. Plus I'm not about to wait for the police without something to hold the assailants off if they get to me before the police.

I didn't see that, but the link I gave refuted that. Kleck's studies are peered reviewed and sound. Even Wikipedia quoted someone on the other side saying such.
You can find anecdotes for anything, and those situations are still pointless because we don't know what would have happened if they didn't have a gun. You can't just ignore the actual statistics and facts in favour of a few personal experiences which don't even say what you're claiming. Guns don't help, end of.

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(Plus accessible guns ensures anyone who breaks in will themselves be armed similarly).
Quick access safes can be anchored.
So? A criminal can get a gun elsewhere. Given that straw purchases are the only accessible illegal means for getting a gun, and that they're only possible if it's easy for someone else to buy a gun, you're going to have armed assailants pretty much all the time.

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Four out of every five days (Link refers to 5/6, but the figure they give is 0.006 from 4/5) in the US see a mass shooting: lone people using a gun to kill in a decision that simply wouldn't be possible to make if guns weren't accessible.
Actually that's been the average for a long time. In fact it spiked during the assault weapons ban.
And you think that's a good thing why?
Plus: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png


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It's one thing to advocate. I'm all for more training and securing guns in safes. It's another to mandate it. There are states with no requirements to train in order to carry and we don't see a spike in accidents. Also you can't enforce a mandatory safe storage without infringing on many rights. And that's another thing. Our constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms so any law banning guns is a infringement.
If your arguments rely on the fact these steps are needed to actually prevent, you know, toddlers shooting themselves, I'd point out that definitely would imply training's a good thing. Take cars: would you propose people be able to buy and drive around because freedom, or should they actually know how to use the otherwise dangerous machines?
Plus, sure, your constitution lets people have guns, in something quite literally called an amendment. Amend it.

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Before guns we killed each with knives and swords.
In armies, yeah. So?

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I'm not sure where I said that but I think I was trying to say that police kill more people than law abiding armed citizens here in the US.
Still not a good thing.

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Which is exactly why I want to arm myself. The police responds to the same scenarios as the civilian victims. Even if you are to say that tomorrow all guns are banned how are you going to do it? Their are at least 400 million privately owned guns and at least 80 million gun owners. Most of our military and police will refuse to obey and confiscate the weapons on moral and safety basis.
If you ban guns here there would be a civil war or a dead law unenforced.
If your military and police won't follow the law, you've got problems, and that really shouldn't be a defence. Do it the same way Australia did it: didn't take too long, and went pretty easily. Organise a buy-back, get people to hand their guns in.
And seriously, if you're worried as to people being shot who would try to enforce gun control, that there is perfect evidence of why you definitely need it.

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If it works so well then why isn't it working with Mexico?
Because America sells guns like candy and it's right next door.

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How many career criminals even would want to keep firearms around knowing it's an instant arrest?
Last issue's your claim "every gun ban led to the deaths of citizens by its own government." Love to see a source so I know what you're trying to refer to.
Nazi germany, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.
Nazi Germany loosened gun regulations: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/26/ben-carson/fact-checking-ben-carson-nazi-guns/
With the exception, of course, of Jews: hardly what's being proposed.
Really hard to find any actual source on Stalin, but from what I can see the reason he got into power was a bunch of civilians with guns.
In fact, Mao similarly only got into power because of the wide availability of guns, from what I can see. Not seeing any evidence of Pol Pot enforcing any gun legislation: a few people seem to quote 1956 as a major year, but as Pol Pot only lead the Khmer Rouge from 1963 on... And can't find evidence of much in 1956 either. Looks more like internet meme propaganda than actual facts.

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The second amendment also allows for the private citizen to own guns. Also as shown in Vietnam guerrilla warfare works. It works especially when the other side are hesitant to fire on their own people and it works even more when a large portion of the other side defects and bring some of the goodies. Plus if what your saying is true then that would be even more reason to have more and bigger guns.
More and bigger guns still wouldn't help against drones. Guerilla warfare isn't going to work against drones. It's an obsolete argument (much like the Second Amendment which, after all, was written in an era in which the best guns were muskets). And I would genuinely love to see someone defect with a drone hidden under their jumper. And if it got to the stage your government was a dangerous enough threat that you needed a violent revolution, I doubt they'd hesitate to fire on the people who would, from their perspective, be terrorists.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!