This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...

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This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« on: August 28, 2007, 05:57:45 PM »
...from a middle school teacher's planning guide.



"Your teacher is trying to demonstrate to you that anything and everything is open to dispute.  In
fact, a rather famous theorem in the philosophy of science, the Duhem-Quine
theorem, states that it is impossible to conclusively disprove any
scientific hypothesis.  That includes such hypotheses as the earth is flat,
photography steals the soul of the object being photographed, and apples
are highly toxic to humans.  To hold on to such hypotheses, it may be
necessary to put forth some rather farfetched explanations of what we can
observe, but it can always be done.

In fact, science does not work by conclusively and indisputably refuting
bad hypotheses.  Instead, hypotheses stand or fail on their ability to
explain known observations, and to predict the outcome of observations that
haven't been performed yet.  Let's take the flat earth versus round earth
hypotheses as an example.  A round earth is the most stable shape according
to gravitational theory; a flat earth would tend to collapse toward the
center, and people standing near the edges would feel a gravitational pull
toward the center of the flat surface instead of perpendicular to the
surface.  Your teacher could counter that gravitational theory is wrong;
magic holds us to the earth.  This may be true, but it doesn't explain why
gravitational theory works so well at explaining how things fall, and the
observed trajectories of the planets and their moons.  You could tell your
teacher that photographs of the earth from space show that it is round,
just like the globe model in your classroom.  He could counter that those
photographs are government fakes.  Perhaps so, but we can see that other
planets and moons are round;  wouldn't it make more sense to say that the
earth is round, too?  Your teacher could say that the earth is special and
different.  You could ask how numerous people have sailed or flown around
the earth if the earth is flat.  He would have to say that every one of
these people, separated as they are in time and space, belongs to the same
great conspiracy aimed at brainwashing us into supposing that the earth is
round.  You could ask him about the communications networks that are linked
by satellite - how can you have satellites orbiting a flat earth?  He might
then tell you that there really aren't any satellite links - everything is
connected by wires, or a close-packed array of relay antennas.

We could go on and on, and I bet that in your classroom you HAVE gone on
and on.  As you see, there is no single fact  you could tell your teacher
that he couldn't dispute in some way.  If you step back and look at it,
though,what kind of world would it have to be if your teacher were right?
Gravity doesn't function here like it does everywhere else in the solar
system, there's a huge conspiracy reaching across hundreds of years to
convince us (for no apparent reason) that the earth is round instead of
flat, the progression of the seasons, and even of day and night, are
controlled by the gods.  Eventually, a reasonable person would have to
concede that it would make a lot more sense to agree that the earth is
indeed round.

There are some other theories to explain things that do not meet this test
of scientific reasonableness, yet are still put forth and defended by many
people in society.  This example of the flat earth hypothesis lets you see
how difficult it is to change someone's mind when they're set on some
strange or unrealistic theory.  It also lets you see that just if a theory
"can't be disproven" doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct, or that
it should be taken seriously for very long."

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2007, 06:05:13 PM »
...from a middle school teacher's planning guide.



"Your teacher is trying to demonstrate to you that anything and everything is open to dispute.  In
fact, a rather famous theorem in the philosophy of science, the Duhem-Quine
theorem, states that it is impossible to conclusively disprove any
scientific hypothesis.  That includes such hypotheses as the earth is flat,
photography steals the soul of the object being photographed, and apples
are highly toxic to humans.  To hold on to such hypotheses, it may be
necessary to put forth some rather farfetched explanations of what we can
observe, but it can always be done.

In fact, science does not work by conclusively and indisputably refuting
bad hypotheses.  Instead, hypotheses stand or fail on their ability to
explain known observations, and to predict the outcome of observations that
haven't been performed yet.  Let's take the flat earth versus round earth
hypotheses as an example.  A round earth is the most stable shape according
to gravitational theory; a flat earth would tend to collapse toward the
center, and people standing near the edges would feel a gravitational pull
toward the center of the flat surface instead of perpendicular to the
surface.  Your teacher could counter that gravitational theory is wrong;
magic holds us to the earth.  This may be true, but it doesn't explain why
gravitational theory works so well at explaining how things fall, and the
observed trajectories of the planets and their moons.  You could tell your
teacher that photographs of the earth from space show that it is round,
just like the globe model in your classroom.  He could counter that those
photographs are government fakes.  Perhaps so, but we can see that other
planets and moons are round;  wouldn't it make more sense to say that the
earth is round, too?  Your teacher could say that the earth is special and
different.  You could ask how numerous people have sailed or flown around
the earth if the earth is flat.  He would have to say that every one of
these people, separated as they are in time and space, belongs to the same
great conspiracy aimed at brainwashing us into supposing that the earth is
round.  You could ask him about the communications networks that are linked
by satellite - how can you have satellites orbiting a flat earth?  He might
then tell you that there really aren't any satellite links - everything is
connected by wires, or a close-packed array of relay antennas.

We could go on and on, and I bet that in your classroom you HAVE gone on
and on.  As you see, there is no single fact  you could tell your teacher
that he couldn't dispute in some way.  If you step back and look at it,
though,what kind of world would it have to be if your teacher were right?
Gravity doesn't function here like it does everywhere else in the solar
system, there's a huge conspiracy reaching across hundreds of years to
convince us (for no apparent reason) that the earth is round instead of
flat, the progression of the seasons, and even of day and night, are
controlled by the gods.  Eventually, a reasonable person would have to
concede that it would make a lot more sense to agree that the earth is
indeed round.

There are some other theories to explain things that do not meet this test
of scientific reasonableness, yet are still put forth and defended by many
people in society.  This example of the flat earth hypothesis lets you see
how difficult it is to change someone's mind when they're set on some
strange or unrealistic theory.  It also lets you see that just if a theory
"can't be disproven" doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct, or that
it should be taken seriously for very long."
Congratulations to Overkill. He or she is the record holder the lowest numbered (on a personal basis) post to be lifted for the RE Primer. Good job!

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
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  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2007, 06:33:52 PM »
Old.  It's only been posted a few hundred times.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2007, 06:54:45 PM »
apparently not enough

damn kids take these lessons literally

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2007, 06:57:08 PM »
Old.  It's only been posted a few hundred times.
Nope. A search shows one other posting, beyond this thread, over a year ago.
Search terms: "convince us (for no apparent reason) that the earth is round instead of"

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
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  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2007, 08:05:56 PM »
Let's see, which one of us has been here longer?

That's right, me. 

Which one of us is a mod?

That's right, me.

Which one of us can delete posts?

That's right, me.

Which one of us has access to the hidden forums?

That's right, me. 

Do deleted threads or ones that have been moved to hidden forums show up on searches?

That's right, they don't.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

Username

  • Administrator
  • 17693
  • President of The Flat Earth Society
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 08:06:54 PM »
Let's see, which one of us has been here longer?

That's right, me. 

Which one of us is a mod?

That's right, me.

Which one of us can delete posts?

That's right, me.

Which one of us has access to the hidden forums?

That's right, me. 

Do deleted threads or ones that have been moved to hidden forums show up on searches?

That's right, they don't.
Oh snap
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

*

CommonCents

  • 1779
  • ^_^
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 08:10:26 PM »
Gulliver just got WTFPWND by TheEngineer!


Wait, that's not special in any way...that's what always happens.
OMG!

*

Midnight

  • 7671
  • RE/FE Apathetic.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 08:16:26 PM »
apparently not enough

damn kids take these lessons literally

You're not posting anything I haven't said a a few times prior, nor anyone else for that matter who has said it hundreds of times prior.

Also, you pasted someone else's idea. This hints at your own mental short comings. If you cannot write your own thoughts down to express something, then your lack of articulation, and indeed your inability to grasp eloquence beyond flattering the original author, shows.

The light is blinding. Grab a hat.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 08:32:00 PM »
Let's see, which one of us has been here longer?

That's right, me. 

Which one of us is a mod?

That's right, me.

Which one of us can delete posts?

That's right, me.

Which one of us has access to the hidden forums?

That's right, me. 

Do deleted threads or ones that have been moved to hidden forums show up on searches?

That's right, they don't.
So what is your point? That you lied? Okay. Fine.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2007, 09:53:26 PM »
So what is your point? That you lied? Okay. Fine.
Quite the jump in logic there, TomG.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2007, 09:56:46 PM »
So what is your point? That you lied? Okay. Fine.
Quite the jump in logic there, TomG.
No more amazing than your trying to pass off that the other 98 posts of the same thing were either deleted or in hidden forums, TheHyopcrite.

?

Lorcan

  • 163
  • FE is nothing but an exercise in doublethink.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2007, 10:33:33 PM »
This needs to be included in the FAQ so more newcomers will not be so utterly confused by the poor arguments they will encounter when confronting this silly "theory". That is, assuming they ever read the FAQ...

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
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  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2007, 02:07:26 AM »
Nope. A search shows one other posting, beyond this thread, over a year ago.
Search harder.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2007, 03:11:52 AM »
Nope. A search shows one other posting, beyond this thread, over a year ago.
Search harder.
The same search key on any poster in any forum for any date results in the same set of posts, no matter how hard I press the keys.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2007, 07:54:43 AM »
I said search harder, not press harder.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2007, 11:15:48 AM »
I said search harder, not press harder.
Gee, I can't imagine how there's a difference to your mind, but then again I am making quite an assumption. By the way, we're all perfectly happy here to note that you haven't produced those 98 exactly-the-same posts you claim there are. I just don't see a need to assist you in backing up your claim.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 11:20:08 AM »
I said search harder, not press harder.
Gee, I can't imagine how there's a difference to your mind, but then again I am making quite an assumption. By the way, we're all perfectly happy here to note that you haven't produced those 98 exactly-the-same posts you claim there are. I just don't see a need to assist you in backing up your claim.
/cry


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2007, 11:41:08 AM »
I said search harder, not press harder.
Gee, I can't imagine how there's a difference to your mind, but then again I am making quite an assumption. By the way, we're all perfectly happy here to note that you haven't produced those 98 exactly-the-same posts you claim there are. I just don't see a need to assist you in backing up your claim.
/cry
Now don't you feel better? A good cry of shame must have done wonders for you!

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2007, 12:30:02 PM »
...from a middle school teacher's planning guide.



"Your teacher is trying to demonstrate to you that anything and everything is open to dispute.  In
fact, a rather famous theorem in the philosophy of science, the Duhem-Quine
theorem, states that it is impossible to conclusively disprove any
scientific hypothesis.  That includes such hypotheses as the earth is flat,
photography steals the soul of the object being photographed, and apples
are highly toxic to humans.  To hold on to such hypotheses, it may be
necessary to put forth some rather farfetched explanations of what we can
observe, but it can always be done.

In fact, science does not work by conclusively and indisputably refuting
bad hypotheses.  Instead, hypotheses stand or fail on their ability to
explain known observations, and to predict the outcome of observations that
haven't been performed yet.  Let's take the flat earth versus round earth
hypotheses as an example.  A round earth is the most stable shape according
to gravitational theory; a flat earth would tend to collapse toward the
center, and people standing near the edges would feel a gravitational pull
toward the center of the flat surface instead of perpendicular to the
surface.  Your teacher could counter that gravitational theory is wrong;
magic holds us to the earth.  This may be true, but it doesn't explain why
gravitational theory works so well at explaining how things fall, and the
observed trajectories of the planets and their moons.  You could tell your
teacher that photographs of the earth from space show that it is round,
just like the globe model in your classroom.  He could counter that those
photographs are government fakes.  Perhaps so, but we can see that other
planets and moons are round;  wouldn't it make more sense to say that the
earth is round, too?  Your teacher could say that the earth is special and
different.  You could ask how numerous people have sailed or flown around
the earth if the earth is flat.  He would have to say that every one of
these people, separated as they are in time and space, belongs to the same
great conspiracy aimed at brainwashing us into supposing that the earth is
round.  You could ask him about the communications networks that are linked
by satellite - how can you have satellites orbiting a flat earth?  He might
then tell you that there really aren't any satellite links - everything is
connected by wires, or a close-packed array of relay antennas.

We could go on and on, and I bet that in your classroom you HAVE gone on
and on.  As you see, there is no single fact  you could tell your teacher
that he couldn't dispute in some way.  If you step back and look at it,
though,what kind of world would it have to be if your teacher were right?
Gravity doesn't function here like it does everywhere else in the solar
system, there's a huge conspiracy reaching across hundreds of years to
convince us (for no apparent reason) that the earth is round instead of
flat, the progression of the seasons, and even of day and night, are
controlled by the gods.  Eventually, a reasonable person would have to
concede that it would make a lot more sense to agree that the earth is
indeed round.

There are some other theories to explain things that do not meet this test
of scientific reasonableness, yet are still put forth and defended by many
people in society.  This example of the flat earth hypothesis lets you see
how difficult it is to change someone's mind when they're set on some
strange or unrealistic theory.  It also lets you see that just if a theory
"can't be disproven" doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct, or that
it should be taken seriously for very long."
tl;dr
Quote
Can the FAQ...
Yes, it can.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 03:11:41 PM »
I said search harder, not press harder.
Gee, I can't imagine how there's a difference to your mind, but then again I am making quite an assumption. By the way, we're all perfectly happy here to note that you haven't produced those 98 exactly-the-same posts you claim there are. I just don't see a need to assist you in backing up your claim.
/cry
Now don't you feel better? A good cry of shame must have done wonders for you!
Nope.  Search harder.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 03:16:03 PM »
I said search harder, not press harder.
Gee, I can't imagine how there's a difference to your mind, but then again I am making quite an assumption. By the way, we're all perfectly happy here to note that you haven't produced those 98 exactly-the-same posts you claim there are. I just don't see a need to assist you in backing up your claim.
/cry
Now don't you feel better? A good cry of shame must have done wonders for you!
Nope.  Search harder.
Nope. Search harder yourself. And do stop crying.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2007, 03:22:37 PM »
Nope. Search harder yourself. And do stop crying.
I did search harder and I found more than you did.  Try again.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 03:33:30 PM »
Nope. Search harder yourself. And do stop crying.
I did search harder and I found more than you did.  Try again.
And for that we have only your word. Again, since you seem to have reading comprehension problems, I'm not going to work to find the posts to back up your hyperbole. And do stop asking for my help with your problem.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 03:38:53 PM »
Well, then I guess it must suck to be you.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2007, 03:41:56 PM »
Well, then I guess it must suck to be you.
Nope. But your answer demonstrates that you can't back up your claim, poor child.

*

TheEngineer

  • Planar Moderator
  • 15483
  • GPS does not require satellites.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2007, 03:53:39 PM »
I'm surprised you could bring yourself to lie about the number.  Poor old man. 

Oh, wait, I'm not surprised at all *coughpicturesofdarkmattercough*


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2007, 04:19:44 PM »
I'm surprised you could bring yourself to lie about the number.  Poor old man. 

Oh, wait, I'm not surprised at all *coughpicturesofdarkmattercough*

So hows that gravitation = acceleration = gravitation going for you?  Is it going as well as the EP applying to gravitational lensing?   
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2007, 04:37:27 PM »
I'm surprised you could bring yourself to lie about the number.  Poor old man. 

Oh, wait, I'm not surprised at all *coughpicturesofdarkmattercough*
Why, I have to thank you. I was wondering when I could get back to the list. I relish the opportunity to add to the list each and every time.
*cough
So...how about those Einstein quotes that gravity as a force does not exist?
So...how about that definition that GL can be caused by acceleration of the FE?
So...how about telling us why you applied the EP over thousands of miles?
So...how about telling why all accelerations are gravitations?
So...how about telling how a star that is not directly over some part of FE can be seen from the FE?
So...how about a reference for your assertion that Nature is an observer?
So...how about telling why Nature can't communicate faster than light?
So...how about explaining how air is an energy source?
So...how about showing where the other 98 posts of this post are?
So...how about telling us how the FE, with a constant, flat gravitational field, and RE, with a variable, curved gravitational field, can produce equal GL effects?

Shall I go on?
cough*

*

Midnight

  • 7671
  • RE/FE Apathetic.
Re: This whole site feels like a dragged school lesson...
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2007, 06:48:45 PM »
apparently not enough

damn kids take these lessons literally

You're not posting anything I haven't said a a few times prior, nor anyone else for that matter who has said it hundreds of times prior.

Also, you pasted someone else's idea. This hints at your own mental short comings. If you cannot write your own thoughts down to express something, then your lack of articulation, and indeed your inability to grasp eloquence beyond flattering the original author, shows.

The light is blinding. Grab a hat.
My problem with his ideas is that it is a ridiculous thing.

Genius. PURE, undiluted genius.