First Man

The only moon Mark would be a fan of, is the one he sits on, and from where all his light bulb ideas come from.

There are three major reasons we know they never went there. In the famous moon landing photo, the American flag is waving, there are no winds on the moon so right there we know its fake.

Incorrect! The flag waves in one instance from the twisting motion of inserting the flag-pole and in another from the exhaust of the ascent engine.

Second: Science now tells us that there is Van Allen belt that prohibits space travel outside Earth's orbit, So how did they pass that Van Ellen belt?

Incorrect!  "Science" does not "tell us that there is Van Allen belt that prohibits space travel outside Earth's orbit". Read this by the man himself!

The recent Fox TV show, which I saw, is an ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense. The claim that radiation exposure during the Apollo missions would have been fatal to the astronauts is only one example of such nonsense.

Do you claim to know more about the van Allen Belts that Dr. James Van Allen himself?

If you are interested in how the traversed the VA belts I'll go into that too. Strangely this photo showing Antarctica is relevant! [

table]

View of the Earth as seen by the Apollo 17 crew -- astronaut Eugene A. Cernan, commander; astronaut Ronald E. Evans, command module pilot; and scientist-astronaut Harrison H. Schmitt lunar module pilot -- traveling toward the moon. This translunar coast photograph extends from the Mediterranean Sea area to the Antarctica South polar ice cap. This is the first time the Apollo trajectory made it possible to photograph the South polar ice cap. Note the heavy cloud cover in the Southern Hemisphere. Almost the entire coastline of Africa is clearly visible. The Arabian Peninsula can be seen at the Northeastern edge of Africa. The large island off the coast of Africa is the Malagasy republic. The Asian mainland is on the horizon toward the Northeast. Image Credit: NASA

And third, they never went back to the moon. Why?

Why? Simply because NASA runs on money from the US Government. After Apollo 11 the money largely "dried up". NASA had to reorganise some missions and cancel others as a result. No money for more lunar (or Mars) missions, so going back to the moon.

There were never any moon landings. I know many people who hate the idea of flat earth yet firmly acknowledge that Moon mission never happened.

Incorrect!
They do not "acknowledge that Moon mission never happened." The falsely claim that the  "Moon missions never happened."
And most of the reasons are quite easily debunked, especially silly ones like
    the flag waving,
    the photos of the Globe being from LEO through a round window when the windows were nearer square,
    the "C" apparently on a " papier-mâché moon-rock " etc.
Some of these excuses are simply laughable.

This is not something flat earthers came up with.

That at least is true.
You might, however, look at your own hypocrisy in accepting these falacious reason when many rely on rockets and satellites to measure the van Allen belt radiation and other aspects of Bill Kaysing's "evidence".
For example, I believe that Bill Kaysing claims that the astronauts spent their time simply in Low Earth Orbit till is was time to re-enter.
How do you explain that on your flat earth?

I guess you'll now bring up "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon".

Ironically, it was largely thanks to Capricorn 1 that the moon landing hoax was popularised.

A film shot with the full support and even technical assistance of NASA.

It’s pretty awesome and well worth checking out, but that doesn’t mean that’s what happened with the moon.

There are three major reasons we know they never went there. In the famous moon landing photo, the American flag is waving, there are no winds on the moon so right there we know its fake.

Apparently you didn't watch the video where the flag looks like it's waving even when it's obviously still.

Second: Science now tells us that there is Van Allen belt that prohibits space travel outside Earth's orbit, So how did they pass that Van Ellen belt?

Because the moon's orbital plane is inclined to the earth's axis and the ecliptic, that allowed the astronauts to fly around the worst part of the radiation belts.

And third, they never went back to the moon. Why?

*sigh*  They went back 6 more times with Apollo 12-17, give or take Apollo 13 not landing.

There were never any moon landings. I know many people who hate the idea of flat earth yet firmly acknowledge that Moon mission never happened. This is not something flat earthers came up with.

And nothing that you've said hasn't been debunked countless times.  That is not something that moon hoaxers are willing to accept.

I would say here in the States about 30 percent of the population do not believe in moon landings and another 50 percent are very skeptical. So this leaves only 20 percent of people who firmly believe. Well the Zombies will believe anything. I don't know if you guys saw the videos how angry the "Moon Astronauts" when an independent journalist was questioning their mission. If something is true why get angry? But if something is false or fake, then of course you get defensive and mean about it. The reaction from astronauts was a solid proof they never went there.

I would say here in the States about 30 percent of the population do not believe in moon landings and another 50 percent are very skeptical. So this leaves only 20 percent of people who firmly believe. Well the Zombies will believe anything. I don't know if you guys saw the videos how angry the "Moon Astronauts" when an independent journalist was questioning their mission. If something is true why get angry? But if something is false or fake, then of course you get defensive and mean about it. The reaction from astronauts was a solid proof they never went there.

I wouldn't call a known stalker that admitted in court he was going to accuse the astronauts of lying no matter what they said or did an independent journalist. He also doesn't show the footage he got of them not being angry because that doesn't sell his videos.

I would say here in the States about 30 percent of the population do not believe in moon landings and another 50 percent are very skeptical. So this leaves only 20 percent of people who firmly believe. Well the Zombies will believe anything. I don't know if you guys saw the videos how angry the "Moon Astronauts" when an independent journalist was questioning their mission. If something is true why get angry? But if something is false or fake, then of course you get defensive and mean about it. The reaction from astronauts was a solid proof they never went there.

Well, you say an awful lot of stupid shit, so....


You would get angry too, if some group of people followed you around with cameras in your face, claiming one of mankinds greatest achievements were fake.

I would say here in the States about 30 percent of the population do not believe in moon landings and another 50 percent are very skeptical. So this leaves only 20 percent of people who firmly believe. Well the Zombies will believe anything. I don't know if you guys saw the videos how angry the "Moon Astronauts" when an independent journalist was questioning their mission. If something is true why get angry? But if something is false or fake, then of course you get defensive and mean about it. The reaction from astronauts was a solid proof they never went there.

Subjective interpretation of some selected reactions is evidence of nothing, let alone solid proof (you need to look that word up).

I once won my district's track championship, if someone followed me around claiming I didn't I'd be very angry about it. I can only imagine how angry someone who'd succeeded in going to the moon and back would be if they'd had to put up with underacheivers persistently claiming they didn't against all actually supportable evidence.

Where did I suggest it wasn't genuine. The real space missions form a wonderful opportunity for Hollywood story writer and we've seen plenty of resulting films.

You did not, but your answer shows you fail to grasp the hidden connection between Hollywood and NASA.
Do you really, really believe that more than 100 million Americans including many young children watched a ''live'' ''moonlanding'' that could as easily ended in all sorts of disasters varying from crashed landers, dying astonauts and worse....?
A remark along the line.. ''therefor everything was meticulously tested..and yes there was still some risk involved'' is NOT an answer to a my question
The NAZI's started to implement film propaganda that could not fail and saw what the result was.
Anti semitic movies and NAZI party propaganda were extremely successfull brain washing tactics that made way for WW2 and genocide without much objection.
There is no single excuse that evil NAZI's were rehabilitated in the USA because of some technological benefits they could provide.
Let alone the position and power Werner von Braun gained at NASA.
It totally escapes you that the Germans were also leading in brainwashing a whole nation with the means of film and imagery.

What if a disaster would have happened on live tv in the midst of a dirty war in Vietnam and racial riots on homeground ?
It could have been the beginning of a total revolution against the government who screwed up the last bit of American pride and dignity with a failed moonlanding in front of more than 100 million Americans.
Are you really believing they took that chance ? Hope for the best that nothing goes terribly wrong in front of 70% of the whole nation while trying to put back some positivity in the homeland ?
They had only one option...a 100% succussfull event in front of more than 100 million Americans and many young and hopefull children...the future generation of America's dream and supremacy.

I am truly puzzled that you are so asleep that you don't realise that any form of disaster was not optional for the American government...not even a possibilty below 10% was to big of a threat.
Besides that many totalitarian regimes did and do about everything to convince the general public about a reality that is fictional in essence.
Why do you think America is an exception with so many ''tried and tested'' NAZI's among their ranks ??

The pity is that few are very realistic, probably because real rockets are so limited in what they do so film makers end up with Star Trek and worse Star Wars ( Space Westerns ).

The docking of the LM during Apollo is among the worst outerspace showing i've ever seen...considering the budget.

Aren't you and other conspiratards so wonderful a psychoanalysing others - try looking in a "psychoanalysing mirror" sometime.
I think you have it around the wrong way.
That "facade of politeness and mediocre humor" hides my belief that you and those that believe as you do are think you are ‘all-knowing’ and instead are really simply denying reality.

If i tell you that i know little about many things you will not receive my answer open minded.
The difference is you base your reality upon the progress of something wrongly called ''science'' i do not.
Since you are unable to let go of your ''golden standard'' you ''see'' anyone disagreeying with you as an ''all knowing'' pretentious smart ass.
Let me elaborate....

You have claimed that Greeks did indeed see the ships slowly dissapear over the horizon...bottom first and eventually the shipmast.
But you do not know anyone who can really claim such a sighting while standing on the shores using only his eyes.
You yourself have certainly not seen it, because you immediately made an evasive move asking about the sun set on a flatearth.
If you would do a poll the outcome will be that 0.0..1 % of the world's population claims to have seen a sailboat go over the horizon until the last piece of the mast became obscured by the curve...and even there testimony remains questionable for various reasons.

And yet you consider this a valid ancient argument in favour of the globe.......don't you see your problems when relying solely on some authorities that talk out of their ass more often than not ? Like creating an imaginary shore gazing group (ancient Greeks) who appearently did see ships go over the curvature ''en mass''....
Or since when was/is the testimony of a rare induvidual considered valid proof ? See what absolute nonsense you firmly believe in ?
When ''scientific'' authorities are mostly related to cosmology the ''ass pulling'' increaces by huge numbers.

Because most people deep down are short sighted and essentially selfish. Scripture describes it in much more brutal terms.
But this has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, the reality of space missions and whether men landed on the moon.

Scripture describes people who dig in the past and beginning of this visual created world and the cosmos beyond foolish....so please don't go there...
And people who still want to claim how this world came about and have the urgency to concor the moon and beyond, are enemies of the truth and have no clue whatsoever what life on earth should be about.

So, exactly the same sources each selected according to the way we see things - just as I thought.
But there is one huge difference: I usually post what the actual source states and often where the reader can find it to check whether I interpreted it correctly and on its veracity.

Didn't you post an, in your eyes very relevant article, claiming it was front-page PRAVDA news (Russian state newspaper) that America landed on the moon, while it was on page three in the real world ?
Didn't i correct you on this glaring mistake and some more in ONE single article you switly copy pasted from the www ?
Maybe you overestimate your ''checking abilities'' and maybe you are in desperate need of a whole new method ?

I don't know your original sources because you never reveal them.
One of the earliest conspiracy theorists seems to have been Bill Kaysing.
Many others have followed and gained traction with Bart Sibrel's "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon".
But so much of "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" is childish rubbish and total lies.

I make up my own mind after examining everything i can lay my hand on.
Example ??
You seem obsessed with ''a funny thing happened on the way to the moon''.....you know what the thing is what made this docu extremely worthwhile ?
What Alan Bean said about his journey to the moon and his awareness and properties of the Van Allen Belts as ''alltime low''....
It was so terribly shocking that the pro Apollo bandwagon accused Bart Sibrel from a sort advanced film pasting that made Alan Bean look lie a total moron on ''space'' ....then you know you hit the bullseye when they call Bart a convicted cap driver without brains, but smart enough to put words into the mouth of Alan Bean he never intended or said by extremely cleverly manipulated film footage in a way not seen before in those days..

Alan Bean, Buzz Alldrin and Edgar Mitchell have made so many crincheworthy statements (posted them numerous times in great detail....contrary to your claim i never reveal sources) that show how much was wrong with the involved characters of the Apollo missions movies.

It would help vastly if you had a little knowledge of physics, including sound propagation, but apparently you don't.

You are a bit over the top with your arrogance at times aren't you ?
As if you know anything about sound propagation...you & co have showed your lacking expertise in the most generous way when discussing the musical live event between the ISS and band earth.
That was a real eye opener for me about the pretentious level of scientific knowledge over here.....
Besides that i know how you treat the likes of Sandokhan....

You come back with some real answers to the numerous request for explanations and I might answer with politeness otherwise take what you get!

I discuss things my way...not your way.
Besides that i like your annoying attitude and don't want you to change your approach for the wrong reasons.

I would say here in the States about 30 percent of the population do not believe in moon landings and another 50 percent are very skeptical. So this leaves only 20 percent of people who firmly believe.

"Far-fetched as the hoax theory may seem, a 1999 Gallup poll showed that it's comparatively durable: 6% of Americans said they thought the lunar landings were fake, and 5% said they were undecided.”

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1860871_1860876_1860992,00.html

What if a disaster would have happened on live tv in the midst of a dirty war in Vietnam and racial riots on homeground ?
It could have been the beginning of a total revolution against the government who screwed up the last bit of American pride and dignity with a failed moonlanding in front of more than 100 million Americans.
Are you really believing they took that chance ? Hope for the best that nothing goes terribly wrong in front of 70% of the whole nation while trying to put back some positivity in the homeland ?
They had only one option...a 100% succussfull event in front of more than 100 million Americans and many young and hopefull children...the future generation of America's dream and supremacy.

If memory serves, 100 million Americans and more around the world watched two space shuttle disasters live on TV.

Quote from: rabinoz on September 13, 2018, 03:15:15 PM

You come back with some real answers to the numerous request for explanations and I might answer with politeness otherwise take what you get!

I discuss things my way...not your way.
Besides that i like your annoying attitude and don't want you to change your approach for the wrong reasons.

And I discuss things from reality, observations and what I can learn from history.

If you claim that the earth is stationary and flat yet have no "model" of that stationary flat earth that explains what I can see with my own eyes of course I'm going to discard your claims.

You seem to base your whole argument on proving the moon landings were fake and that space travel is impossible. They are simply "the icing on the cake".

Quote from: rabinoz on September 13, 2018, 03:15:15 PM

Where did I suggest it wasn't genuine. The real space missions form a wonderful opportunity for Hollywood story writer and we've seen plenty of resulting films.

You did not, but your answer shows you fail to grasp the hidden connection between Hollywood and NASA.
Do you really, really believe that more than 100 million Americans including many young children watched a ''live'' ''moonlanding'' that could as easily ended in all sorts of disasters varying from crashed landers, dying astonauts and worse....?
A remark along the line.. ''therefor everything was meticulously tested..and yes there was still some risk involved'' is NOT an answer to a my question
The NAZI's started to implement film propaganda that could not fail and saw what the result was.
Anti semitic movies and NAZI party propaganda were extremely successfull brain washing tactics that made way for WW2 and genocide without much objection.
There is no single excuse that evil NAZI's were rehabilitated in the USA because of some technological benefits they could provide.
Let alone the position and power Werner von Braun gained at NASA.
It totally escapes you that the Germans were also leading in brainwashing a whole nation with the means of film and imagery.

What if a disaster would have happened on live tv in the midst of a dirty war in Vietnam and racial riots on homeground ?

Do you mean a disaster like the Apollo 1 fire that killed 3 astronauts?  Granted, it didn't happen on live TV, but it did devastate the country and nearly killed the manned space the program.

You think the Nazis we're bad, look at what christans have done!!

They brainwashed and "bamboozled" billions of people for two milenia with a book of  fairy tales.

All for money and power!

  The fuller answer to the latest  dutchy rant !

Quote from: rabinoz on September 13, 2018, 03:15:15 PM

Where did I suggest it wasn't genuine. The real space missions form a wonderful opportunity for Hollywood story writer and we've seen plenty of resulting films.

You did not, but your answer shows you fail to grasp the hidden connection between Hollywood and NASA.
Do you really, really believe that more than 100 million Americans including many young children watched a ''live'' ''moonlanding'' that could as easily ended in all sorts of disasters varying from crashed landers, dying astonauts and worse....?

Yes! And an estimated one million watched the Saturn V launch the Apollo 11 mission into low earth orbit.
And they also did show the Challenger shuttle disaster disaster live and it was horrifying in replay!

Quote from: rabinoz

The pity is that few are very realistic, probably because real rockets are so limited in what they do so film makers end up with Star Trek and worse Star Wars ( Space Westerns ).

The docking of the LM during Apollo is among the worst outerspace showing i've ever seen...considering the budget.

So you say but you post no video and no reasons.
Were it faked, "considering the budget", why would they release "the worst outerspace showing you've ever seen"?
Give reasons and evidence or admit you have nothing but your opinion.

Quote from: rabinoz

Aren't you and other conspiratards so wonderful a psychoanalysing others - try looking in a "psychoanalysing mirror" sometime.
I think you have it around the wrong way.
That "facade of politeness and mediocre humor" hides my belief that you and those that believe as you do are think you are ‘all-knowing’ and instead are really simply denying reality.

If i tell you that i know little about many things you will not receive my answer open minded.
<< Irrelevant >>
Let me elaborate....

You have claimed that Greeks did indeed see the ships slowly dissapear over the horizon...bottom first and eventually the shipmast.
But you do not know anyone who can really claim such a sighting while standing on the shores using only his eyes.

I don't rely on any of that as proof or even evidence. It's no more than one of the reasons for the early Greeks discarding their earlier belief in a flat earth.
And you still harp on this "eventually the shipmast" ignoring wide sails that would have been far more visible.

You yourself have certainly not seen it, because you immediately made an evasive move asking about the sun set on a flatearth.

Not an evasive move at all!
There is unlimited evidence of "ships disappearing" but there are many complicating factors from viewing height and waves to refraction, looming and mirages etc.

Refraction, looming, mirages and Fata Morgana all are real and all do occur from time to time.

Red Ship with Mirage

Boats disappear over horizon proof of curvature - DEBUNKED, DEBUNKED

And how do you like a "flying boat"?

On the left two the "reflection line" is marked and on the left I called it the true horizon but now I'm not at all sure.
I would now claim that nothing can be learned from photos like that other than examples of mirages.
One real problem is that people tend to photograph unusual events, like the above mirages and ignore the mundane.

So it was no "evasive move asking about the sun set on a flatearth".
No-one can deny that the sun sets and it certainly appears to set behind something - but what is that something?

If you would do a poll the outcome will be that 0.0..1 % of the world's population claims to have seen a sailboat go over the horizon until the last piece of the mast top-sail became obscured by the curve...and even there testimony remains questionable for various reasons.

So what?
You go on and on about it but numerous people have seen and photographed similar things, often with a telescopic lens - or is that a Satanic invention?

<< Attempted ridicule ignored >>
See what absolute nonsense you firmly believe in ?

No!

When ''scientific'' authorities are mostly related to cosmology the ''ass pulling'' increaces by huge numbers.

1) What relevance has "modern cosmology" got to the shape of the earth?
     The earth was considered a (stationary) globe some 2000 years before even Copernicus.

2) What evidence do you have that those "huge numbers" are wrong?

Quote from: rabinoz

Because most people deep down are short sighted and essentially selfish. Scripture describes it in much more brutal terms.
But this has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, the reality of space missions and whether men landed on the moon.

Scripture describes people who dig in the past and beginning of this visual created world and the cosmos beyond foolish....so please don't go there...

Really! Where? And I did and do go there and further back.
Not however as proof of anything, but just to learn what those ancient people with almost no instruments but very sharp minds could learn about their surroundings.

And people who still want to claim how this world came about and have the urgency to concor the moon and beyond, are enemies of the truth and have no clue whatsoever what life on earth should be about.

So you quite falsely claim.

Quote from: rabinoz

So, exactly the same sources each selected according to the way we see things - just as I thought.
But there is one huge difference: I usually post what the actual source states and often where the reader can find it to check whether I interpreted it correctly and on its veracity.

Didn't you post an, in your eyes very relevant article, claiming it was front-page PRAVDA news (Russian state newspaper) that America landed on the moon, while it was on page three in the real world ?
Didn't i correct you on this glaring mistake and some more in ONE single article you switly copy pasted from the www ?

You posted your opinion but no proof.

Maybe you overestimate your ''checking abilities'' and maybe you are in desperate need of a whole new method ?

And maybe you are talking through your proverbial Tam o' Shanter.

Quote from: rabinoz

I don't know your original sources because you never reveal them.
One of the earliest conspiracy theorists seems to have been Bill Kaysing.
Many others have followed and gained traction with Bart Sibrel's "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon".
But so much of "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" is childish rubbish and total lies.

I make up my own mind after examining everything i can lay my hand on.
Example ??
You seem obsessed with ''a funny thing happened on the way to the moon''.....you know what the thing is what made this docu extremely worthwhile ?

What Alan Bean said about his journey to the moon and his awareness and properties of the Van Allen Belts as ''alltime low''....
It was so terribly shocking that the pro Apollo bandwagon accused Bart Sibrel from a sort advanced film pasting that made Alan Bean look lie a total moron on ''space'' ....then you know you hit the bullseye when they call Bart a convicted cap driver without brains, but smart enough to put words into the mouth of Alan Bean he never intended or said by extremely cleverly manipulated film footage in a way not seen before in those days..

And do you know what makes you a total hypocrite?
You use "evidence" from Bart Sibrel et al that relies on the Globe an the reality of satellites in LEO.
The idea of the van Allen belts would be meaningless were the earth not a Globe.
On the van Allen belt issue, please read this post carefully: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!! « Reply #11.
That includes a copy of a letter from Dr James van Allen himself specifically on this issue.

Again you post nothing more than your opinions of what was said, so I won't waste my time looking up original sources.

Alan Bean, Buzz Alldrin and Edgar Mitchell have made so many crincheworthy statements (posted them numerous times in great detail....contrary to your claim i never reveal sources) that show how much was wrong with the involved characters of the Apollo missions movies.

In your opinion though what Edgar Mitchell says on various matters is his own business.

Quote from: rabinoz

It would help vastly if you had a little knowledge of physics, including sound propagation, but apparently you don't.

You are a bit over the top with your arrogance at times aren't you ?
As if you know anything about sound propagation...you & co have showed your lacking expertise in the most generous way when discussing the musical live event between the ISS and band earth.

Really?
You simply ignore any other explanations but your own and pan something that had nothing had nothing to do with NASA or he reality of the ISSUES.

<< Ignored for above reasons >>

You come back with some real answers to the numerous request for explanations and I might answer with politeness otherwise take what you get!

I discuss things my way...not your way.

Sure you blame NASA for trying to hide the flat earth earth from everybody when few have thought the earth flat for man many centuries.

That is why you refuse point blank to answer things like:

Just when do you think that the idea of a spherical earth started? It was:
     certainly before the time of Copernicus (1473 – 1543),
     certainly before the time of Johannes of Sacrobosco (c. 1195 – c. 1256) who wrote "de Sphaera Mundi" and
     certainly before the time of The Venerable Bede (c. 673 - 735) who wrote, "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' ".

So wherever this "idea of a spherical earth started" it long predates NASA and any thought of space missions.

Since the earth was considered to be a rotating globe for centuries before NASA was thought of and was considered to be a globe for up to two millennia before that.

NASA didn't do it! They've got the perfect alibi -

Quote from: dutchy on September 14, 2018, 01:40:59 PM

What if a disaster would have happened on live tv in the midst of a dirty war in Vietnam and racial riots on homeground ?
It could have been the beginning of a total revolution against the government who screwed up the last bit of American pride and dignity with a failed moonlanding in front of more than 100 million Americans.
Are you really believing they took that chance ? Hope for the best that nothing goes terribly wrong in front of 70% of the whole nation while trying to put back some positivity in the homeland ?
They had only one option...a 100% succussfull event in front of more than 100 million Americans and many young and hopefull children...the future generation of America's dream and supremacy.

If memory serves, 100 million Americans and more around the world watched two space shuttle disasters live on TV.

No comparison with the fulfillment of Kennedy's prophecy against the timeframe America was in.
Besides that, the shuttle event was based on some more bogus....

Quote from: dutchy on September 14, 2018, 01:40:59 PM

Quote from: rabinoz on September 13, 2018, 03:15:15 PM

Where did I suggest it wasn't genuine. The real space missions form a wonderful opportunity for Hollywood story writer and we've seen plenty of resulting films.

You did not, but your answer shows you fail to grasp the hidden connection between Hollywood and NASA.
Do you really, really believe that more than 100 million Americans including many young children watched a ''live'' ''moonlanding'' that could as easily ended in all sorts of disasters varying from crashed landers, dying astonauts and worse....?
A remark along the line.. ''therefor everything was meticulously tested..and yes there was still some risk involved'' is NOT an answer to a my question
The NAZI's started to implement film propaganda that could not fail and saw what the result was.
Anti semitic movies and NAZI party propaganda were extremely successfull brain washing tactics that made way for WW2 and genocide without much objection.
There is no single excuse that evil NAZI's were rehabilitated in the USA because of some technological benefits they could provide.
Let alone the position and power Werner von Braun gained at NASA.
It totally escapes you that the Germans were also leading in brainwashing a whole nation with the means of film and imagery.

What if a disaster would have happened on live tv in the midst of a dirty war in Vietnam and racial riots on homeground ?

Do you mean a disaster like the Apollo 1 fire that killed 3 astronauts?  Granted, it didn't happen on live TV, but it did devastate the country and nearly killed the manned space the program.

Difference is it was a created disaster to kill Gus Grissom who like Baron did not believe for a moment they were capable of going to the moon.
Baron who made a report announcing the deplorable state of the Apollo project , but of.course was another victim of reaper who took his life days before the report was published.
And Gus Grissom's wife has testified how rude the FBI came into her house to took away everything Gus may had written personally only hours after his death.
But the thick Baron report destroying Apollo was never found.

The level of deceit within NAZI NASA is staggering and yet the bandwagon claims there's not even one single deliberate fake photograph, false astronaut's statement, deliberate use of the shredder to get rid of original data that may reveal the fakery during a scientific examination.

Iow where the rest of the world fails to commit themselves to honesty on every single level, NAZI NASA has done so for over 60 years with ease.... and if not the Russians would have told the rest of the world....

No comparison with the fulfillment of Kennedy's prophecy against the timeframe America was in.
Besides that, the shuttle event was based on some more bogus....

Is there no end to your conspiracy idiocy?

Quote from: dutchy on September 14, 2018, 11:58:09 PM

No comparison with the fulfillment of Kennedy's prophecy against the timeframe America was in.
Besides that, the shuttle event was based on some more bogus....

Is there no end to your conspiracy idiocy?

Far better than your unconditional trust in governments , the military and NASA.
While they , not me, are responsable for the killing of millions upon millions to carry out the imbecile agenda of power hungry and evil men.

But till date you believe that both the government, NASA and the military have spoken nothing but the truth about space exploration.
Not a single photograph was faked, not a single comment false....

You have to live with the fact that you willingly defend murderers and thieves ( tax payer’s money)
You should be ashamed of yourself by attacking me and defending evil .

The fuller answer to the latest  dutchy rant !

If only you'd answer..

Yes! And an estimated one million watched the Saturn V launch the Apollo 11 mission into low earth orbit.
And they also did show the Challenger shuttle disaster disaster live and it was horrifying in replay!

Context buddy context.
See you don't ever answer the very reasonable question what would happen during the Vietnam war (the reality of that dirty war was coming out more by the day)  and the ongoing racial riots that were a severe threat for the stability in the homeland....if an Apollo disaster would also happen in front of 100+ million viewers who wanted to feel some national pride again....and comfort of still being on top of the world after being repeatedly beaten by the Russians ?
So care for answering this time around ?
No of course you won't......

So you say but you post no video and no reasons.
Were it faked, "considering the budget", why would they release "the worst outerspace showing you've ever seen"?
Give reasons and evidence or admit you have nothing but your opinion.

Don't be a total fool rabinoz.

If you don't see a ''Buck Roger's level of special effects than you don't ....poor man.

I don't rely on any of that as proof or even evidence. It's no more than one of the reasons for the early Greeks discarding their earlier belief in a flat earth.
And you still harp on this "eventually the shipmast" ignoring wide sails that would have been far more visible.

I absolutely don't care what part of the ship was supposedly seen going over the curve....
The fact that you claim that the earth was known to be a sphere long before Christ says it all.
1 Known by whome ? An induvidual Greek that took his buddy and brought some stick and measured a shadow ?
2 The shore gazers ? A well known large group who tested over and over again what they saw when a boat went off in the distance ?
3 A claim based on hearsay, because it was claimed by some induvidual that he saw a ship go over the curve ?
And you claim you love science and i am denying it ?


So much for the ancient Greeks to carry out something that withstands the scientific method.
But in case of the ancient cultures you are willing to spout all your wishfull thinking as facts don't you ?
''The earth has been known to be a sphere for over 2500 years'' and other manure you throw around based on anything but facts.
People back then couldn't claim earth's form on something remotely verifiable using sticks and eyesight without knowing about refraction and the effects on large bodies of water and the conclusions based on eyesight only.
But doesn't prevent you from spouting your ongoing false claims about the past.

On the left two the "reflection line" is ....remove irrelevant copy paste garbage

Clever of you to change the subject.
Did the Greek use camera's ?
Did the Greeks know about refraction over large bodies of water and how it changes the outcome when gazing over the sea ?
No and no....

1) What relevance has "modern cosmology" got to the shape of the earth?

Everything...the very nature of a liquid ball with a tiny crust can only be explained by modern cosmology.

     The earth was considered a (stationary) globe some 2000 years before even Copernicus.

By whome ? and did they represent total mankind or were they considered few smart asses that claimed to know on behave of 99.99999% of earth's population what their world looks like ?

I have to go now....maybe to be continued...maybe not, because you have a very thick skull my friend.

Quote from: rabinoz on September 15, 2018, 12:38:27 AM

Quote from: dutchy on September 14, 2018, 11:58:09 PM

No comparison with the fulfillment of Kennedy's prophecy against the timeframe America was in.
Besides that, the shuttle event was based on some more bogus....

Is there no end to your conspiracy idiocy?

Far better than your unconditional trust in governments , the military and NASA.

I never said that I had an "unconditional trust in governments, the military and NASA".

While they, not me, are responsable for the killing of millions upon millions to carry out the imbecile agenda of power hungry and evil men.

And what has that to do with the truth or otherwise of the lunar missions or the shape or the earth?

But till date you believe that both the government, NASA and the military have spoken nothing but the truth about space exploration.

More or less, but only to the extent that it agrees with what I see is quite possible.

Not a single photograph was faked, not a single comment false....

I never claimed any such thing but I have seen many errors, lies and fakes perpetrated by those trying to disprove the lunar missions.
In particular, but not limited to, the stupidity of the claims about the van Allen belts that have been soundly refuted be Dr James Van Allen himself.

But you completely ignore everything I say about that sort of thing.
You have to stick tightly to your agenda because to do otherwise you would have to abandon you whole "world view".

You have to live with the fact that you willingly defend murderers and thieves ( tax payer’s money)

No, I don't! Not only have you not proven anywhere in this debate that any are thieves and murderers but
even if they were, I'm not responsible for other things that the US and other governments have or haven't done.

You should be ashamed of yourself by attacking me and defending evil.

I am not "defending evil". I am simply claiming that the earth is a rotating globe, that space flight is possible and that men have visited the moon.

I fail to see any connection so I am not ashamed of myself on that score in the slightest.

Still, I realise how foolish I am to even engage in this sort of discussion with a dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist!
I guess my excuse is that I didn't realise that you could so easly brush aside all contrary even with a few strokes of the well-known dutchy-redicule .

Curious Dutchy, why do you present 240p footage when 1080p is available?

Quote from: rabinoz on September 14, 2018, 07:25:33 PM

The fuller answer to the latest  dutchy rant !

If only you'd answer..

Why should I bother anyway? You refuse point blank to answer anything I aks and ignore all contrary evidence!

Quote from: rabinoz

Yes! And an estimated one million watched the Saturn V launch the Apollo 11 mission into low earth orbit.
And they also did show the Challenger shuttle disaster disaster live and it was horrifying in replay!

Context buddy context.
See you don't ever answer the very reasonable question what would happen during the Vietnam war (the reality of that dirty war was coming out more by the day)  and the ongoing racial riots that were a severe threat for the stability in the homeland....if an Apollo disaster would also happen in front of 100+ million viewers who wanted to feel some national pride again....and comfort of still being on top of the world after being repeatedly beaten by the Russians ?
So care for answering this time around ?
No of course you won't......

What night or might not have happened is irrelevant!
But deny it as much as you like the launch was real and observed by an estimated one million live and 100 million on TV and the launch is one of the dangerous phases of any mission.

Quote from: rabinoz

So you say but you post no video and no reasons.
Were it faked, "considering the budget", why would they release "the worst outerspace showing you've ever seen"?
Give reasons and evidence or admit you have nothing but your opinion.

Don't be a total fool rabinoz.

If you don't see a ''Buck Roger's level of special effects than you don't ....poor man.

No or are you going to claim that you were there and saw it first hand and so know what it should look like?
And you refuse to answer the obvious, Were it faked, "considering the budget", why would they release "the worst outerspace showing you've ever seen"?
Get real and show some consistency!

Quote from: rabinoz

I don't rely on any of that as proof or even evidence. It's no more than one of the reasons for the early Greeks discarding their earlier belief in a flat earth.
And you still harp on this "eventually the shipmast" ignoring wide sails that would have been far more visible.

I absolutely don't care what part of the ship was supposedly seen going over the curve....
The fact that you claim that the earth was known to be a sphere long before Christ says it all.
1 Known by whome ? An induvidual Greek that took his buddy and brought some stick and measured a shadow ?
2 The shore gazers ? A well known large group who tested over and over again what they saw when a boat went off in the distance ?
3 A claim based on hearsay, because it was claimed by some induvidual that he saw a ship go over the curve ?
And you claim you love science and i am denying it ?

All you have is ridicule! It's hardly "a claim based on hearsay" to those then and now who lived by the sea and sailed the sea.
For centuries sailors have estimated the distance to another ship or to land by its visibility compared to the horizon and their height above the water.
  I'll copy-n-paste that for you later .

No "Greek that took his buddy and brought some stick and measured a shadow"! Stop repeating that lie you keep telling!
No-one claimed, "A well known large group who tested over and over again what they saw when a boat went off in the distance".

But the work of Aristarchus and Hipparchus on estimating the distance to the moon etc along with Eratosthenes and his well at Syene and column at Alexandria were all consistent with the earth being a Globe and not flat!

No-one claims that they irrefutably proved anything.

I believe that I understand scientific method far better than you! You won't even present your model so that anyone can see that it stands up to "scientific method".

So much for the ancient Greeks to carry out something that withstands the scientific method.
But in case of the ancient cultures you are willing to spout all your wishfull thinking as facts don't you ?
''The earth has been known to be a sphere for over 2500 years'' and other manure you throw around based on anything but facts.
People back then couldn't claim earth's form on something remotely verifiable using sticks and eyesight without knowing about refraction and the effects on large bodies of water and the conclusions based on eyesight only.
But doesn't prevent you from spouting your ongoing false claims about the past.

And you keep lying about "something remotely verifiable using sticks and eyesight".

Quote from: rabinoz

On the left two the "reflection line" is ....remove irrelevant copy paste garbage

Clever of you to change the subject.

I DID NOT CHANGE THE SUBJECT! I was pointing out that over relatively short distances all the things you ignore can lead to various unusual effects and that these are the ones usually photographed.

But no-one can deny that the sun and moon do appear to rise from and set behind the horizon and they do it so obviously that refraction etc has only a minor effect.
Every time I dare raise this you claim I'm changing the subject - but it is the same effect and the same cause.
Are you so deadly afraid to discuss sunsets? They certainly do kill any idea of a near sun circling above the earth!

Did the Greek use camera's ?
Did the Greeks know about refraction over large bodies of water and how it changes the outcome when gazing over the sea ?
No and no....

That is essentially irrelevant! camera's are not needed by person's making direct observations and normal or usual refraction is not usually a problem.
In fact, cameras can be part of the problem because they can "freeze" these exceptional events (like Chicago being visible over Lake Michigan).

BUT WE DO NOT RELY ON THE GREEK OBSERVATIONS AS PROOF, but for them it was the reason that they discarded the old flat earth ideas.
That is what I said and that is what I meant!

But when repeatedly asked, you refuse to say just when you consider belief in the Globe started.

Quote from: rabinoz

1) What relevance has "modern cosmology" got to the shape of the earth?

Everything
...the very nature of a liquid ball with a tiny crust can only be explained by modern cosmology.

No! That is total rubbish! In case you didn't know, "the very nature of a liquid ball with a tiny crust" was what Isaac Newton used to estimate the ellipticity of the earth.
His maths were approximate but his results were quite close to modern measurements!

Quote from: rabinoz

The earth was considered a (stationary) globe some 2000 years before even Copernicus.

By whome ? and did they represent total mankind or were they considered few smart asses that claimed to know on behave of 99.99999% of earth's population what their world looks like ?

By those who were interested in such things in at least the Mediterranean region and in the Arabic countries in the first millennium AD.

Maybe you should also learn a bit about ancient Indian cosmology dating back much further and again into the first millennium AD.

I have to go now....maybe to be continued...maybe not, because you have a very thick skull my friend.

I do do I? Well, you refuse to even consider any contrary evidence and simply brush aside any claims i make so who has the thickest skull.

But I should not have even started these posts:
1) They are a total waste of time and
2) I should hace been in bed long ago!

Context buddy context.
See you don't ever answer the very reasonable question what would happen during the Vietnam war (the reality of that dirty war was coming out more by the day)  and the ongoing racial riots that were a severe threat for the stability in the homeland....if an Apollo disaster would also happen in front of 100+ million viewers who wanted to feel some national pride again....and comfort of still being on top of the world after being repeatedly beaten by the Russians ?
So care for answering this time around ?
No of course you won't......

Yes, I agree, context is key. Your assertion that Apollo was faked in an effort stave off instability and bolster national pride is wildly out of context as to what was happening in America at the time.
If memory serves, you do recall America was far from any sort of a dream or supremacy and a moon landing seemed to have little impact as to such considering what was going on around the time of Apollo, i.e., Civil Rights, Vietnam, Watergate, MLK/RFK, just to name a few. Apollo was a blip on the national radar in comparison to what was happening in the country around that time frame. Your logic is flawed.

And remember, there were six moon landings, not one, not two, but six. A logical, thinking person might surmise, yes, any conspiracy worth it's salt and one that is overwhelmingly well funded, would never 'rinse and repeat' and certainly not 5 more times - Too much exposure, one and done is all that is required to restore national pride, maybe two, but that's pushing it. Why 4 more? And even after six, American national pride and global supremacy was never subject to any form of restoration given the events and landscape of the time. In fact, things got worse.

But a person like you, after pondering such a notion then adjusts the brim on their well crafted tinfoil helmet, swirls a couple of lithium capsules into a coffee cup of fortified wine left over from last nights binge and queues up several Youtube videos from the likes of globebusters and math powerland and gets back to some serious research.

Yes, I agree, context is key. Your assertion that Apollo was faked in an effort stave off instability and bolster national pride is wildly out of context as to what was happening in America at the time.
If memory serves, you do recall America was far from any sort of a dream or supremacy and a moon landing seemed to have little impact as to such considering what was going on around the time of Apollo, i.e., Civil Rights, Vietnam, Watergate, MLK/RFK, just to name a few. Apollo was a blip on the national radar in comparison to what was happening in the country around that time frame. Your logic is flawed.

Just for the record, the Watergate break-in occurred between the final two Apollo landings. Watergate didn't become credibly tied to the Nixon White House until spring, 1973. After that, it really "blew up". Apollo 17, the final moon landing, was in December, 1972.

The moon landings couldn't possibly be considered a distraction from Watergate. As Stash already notes, they were little more than a few brief respites from the tide of problems and bad news of the time insofar as "buoying the national mood".

Yes, I agree, context is key. Your assertion that Apollo was faked in an effort stave off instability and bolster national pride is wildly out of context as to what was happening in America at the time.
If memory serves, you do recall America was far from any sort of a dream or supremacy and a moon landing seemed to have little impact as to such considering what was going on around the time of Apollo, i.e., Civil Rights, Vietnam, Watergate, MLK/RFK, just to name a few. Apollo was a blip on the national radar in comparison to what was happening in the country around that time frame. Your logic is flawed.

Your memory simply doesn’t serve you to well.
Street interviews in the late fifties revealed how much fear the whole space race brought onto America.
If Russians were able to go ballistic in outerspace, they could drop their nukes wherever they wanted. ( comments from cvilians on the streets)
In fact this artificcially created fearmongering gave the USA military carte blanche to do whatever they could to prevent Russian supremacy creating an equally balanced counterweight threat.
How convenient for both superpowers to throw incrcredible amounts of money around in a childish power combat that makes any reasonable human puke.
To be on the moon first would mean American supremacy of ‘space’ and less threat from those evil Russians who were able to nuke America without warning (emotion of the brainwashed public about the evil and satanical communists )

And remember, there were six moon landings, not one, not two, but six. A logical, thinking person might surmise, yes, any conspiracy worth it's salt and one that is overwhelmingly well funded, would never 'rinse and repeat' and certainly not 5 more times - Too much exposure, one and done is all that is required to restore national pride, maybe two, but that's pushing it. Why 4 more? And even after six, American national pride and global supremacy was never subject to any form of restoration given the events and landscape of the time. In fact, things got worse.

You are probably not an American are you ?
America today is a testimony of exagerating things beyond reason.
Every talent show has a spring and autumn episode..... over the top, but they like to milk a product all the way they can each and every year.... typicall American.
During Apollo 12 people started to complain ‘en masse’ that a re-run from Lucy Ball’s soap was cancelled in favour of Apollo 12.
In the mean time more than 25% of the population did not believe they really got to the moon in the first place (early seventies)... a figure not known by many Apollo worshippers..
In order to get some sympathy Apollo 13 was born.
A heroic battle defying all odds that is still a beloved theme in many Hollywood productions.
America somehow loves such stories to pieces when all seems lost, but an heroic comeback of the hero’s defying all odds is truly happening.
Duct tape kept the CM in one piece..... go figure...
Then the art of fakery was taken to a whole new level in the following missions compared to Apollo 11 and studio missions with much better footage were presented to make sure no one ever doubted that America concored the moon.

But a person like you, after pondering such a notion then adjusts the brim on their well crafted tinfoil helmet, swirls a couple of lithium capsules into a coffee cup of fortified wine left over from last nights binge and queues up several Youtube videos from the likes of globebusters and math powerland and gets back to some serious research.

Yeah that’s a familiar pattern when your fantasies are crushed.....
In the end it’s all you have, so be my guest.

Duct tape kept the CM in one piece..... go figure...
Then the art of fakery was taken to a whole new level in the following missions compared to Apollo 11 and studio missions with much better footage were presented to make sure no one ever doubted that America concored the moon.
. . . . . . . . . .
Yeah that’s a familiar pattern when your fantasies are crushed..... In the end it’s all you have, so be my guest.

Oh, what utter unadulterated garbage!  Though you might be entertained by Moondust and Duct Tape.

And you are so deluded that you claim,
But

• Whether your interpretations are correct or not is totally irrelevant to truth about the lunar landings.
  That has to be assessed from the available evidence and nothing else. 
  Your conjectures have nothing to do with the case but you might read Third-party evidence for Apollo Moon landings
  
  
• Whether the lunar landings we true or not is totally irrelevant to truth about space flights in general.
  Many of the proponents of the "Hoax hypotheses" certainly believed in the reality of satellites and even LEO crewed missions.
  
  Bill Kaysing, for example claimed that "the Rocketdyne F-1 engines in the first stage of the Saturn V rocket were totally unreliable" and we're replaced by "the more dependable B-1 type as used in the C-1 cluster for the Atlas missile".
  The he claims that, "The rocket launch appears normal, although the weight of the fueled Saturn V on the launchpad is less than one-twentieth of its original design specification", according to Kaysing.
  "The second and third stages of the Saturn V are equipped with mock Rocketdyne J-2 engines. The third stage puts Apollo into a parking orbit.".
  So Bill Kaysing certainly believes that LEO "parking orbits" are quite possible.
  
  This is now known to be an outright lie as we now have a couple if the F-1 engines from the Apollo 11 rocket.
  
  
  "Rocket Engine Part Recovered by Amazon CEO Has Apollo 11 History. Corrosion removed from the base of a Saturn V engine thrust chamber recovered by Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has exposed the serial number "Unit No 2044" stamped into the part's surface."
  
  Bart Sibrel's film "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" leaves no doubt that he quite accepts satellites in LEO because he claims that the spacecraft ended up in LEO.
  
  You favorite hoaxer and we'll see what comes.
  
  van Allen Belt radiation could only have been measured by satellites and sounding rockets far above LEO. Dr James van Allen wrote:
  Quote

  The recent Fox TV show, which I saw, is an ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense. The claim that radiation exposure during the Apollo missions would have been fatal to the astronauts is only one example of such nonsense.
  James A. Van Allen

  
   
• Whether space flights in general are true or not has not the slightest relevance to the shape or movement of the earth.
  That was known and verified countless time over that past few centuries.
  
  But, dutchy, you refuse to even address the issue.

Even if you destroy NASA, you would achieve nothing! There is so much commercial activity involving space missions that it would have little effect.
Of course, the other services provided by NASA might be sorely missed as aviation development and crash investigation relies on NASA's expertise.
After all they are the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Sorry, rab....

Since you forgot to bold the "S" in "Space", your entire post is nothing but lies.

Sorry, rab....
Since you forgot to bold the "S" in "Space", your entire post is nothing but lies.

I did high-light it originally then removed the highlighting, so it's a sin it's a sin on commission not of omission - must I confess and do penance?
Or will it be automatically be expunged at "At the going down of the sun". Am I hopelessly sentimental or what? I cannot read or write those words, even in jest, with  dry eyes !

For the Fallen
_They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

Oh, what utter unadulterated garbage!  Though you might be entertained by .......

Not really,......but it is getting tiresome that the only thing you present is some NASA controled info that even the stupiest person can locate within minutes of a Google search....and present it as some undeniable and factual info about the whole Apollo event.
YESSSS of course NASA and the info THEY got out through several channels will confirm the moonlandings and all sorts of ''objective'' parties confirm this premise by adding undeniable ''scientific'' details.
But it is nothing more than having a butcher inspecting the quality of his own meat.

And you fall for it..on purpose i presume....adding numbers and copy paste data that hopefully upgrade your posts about a non event like the moonlandings.....?
And almost forgot...make online hoaxer's look like total morons at every given possibility.(Bart Sibrell, Bill Kaysing....)

But you avoid at all costs why Alan Bean knows nothing about the Van Allen Belts and talks about space travel in the most embarrassing way possible accompagnied with no knowledge whatsoever and childish answers....
Edgar Mitchel babbling continiously on international symposia about secret shadow governments, advanced technologies, UFO's, Roswell as a historical event, aliens monitoring earth and preventing a nuclear war....
Buzz Alldrin lying on the fly when confronted with earlier statements about extraterrestrials on their tale to the moon.....
Neil Armstrong claiming cislunar space was ''deep black'', while Edgar Mitchell saw ten times brighter and numerous stars at the same place (no matter what variables are inserted the outcome can never ever vary from ''deep black'' towards ''heavenly lid up sky like nowhere else'' in approxemately the same place when looking outside the capsule's window staring towards the vacuum of space....
Don Pettit claims he would go back to the moon in a NANO second but they lost or destroyed the technologies to get them there....o what a pity..
Others claim that going to the moon won't be a future goal for very long...''been there, done that''....kinda reasoning
And i could continue for hours.......

You know what's going to happen ?
One day in the (near?) future you will also understand the foundations of the fake moonlandings when it will be revealed and you will probably claim that the moon hoaxer's arguments weren't good enough to convince you earlier on.