Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2010, 11:34:02 PM »
The eclipse maps above along with the marine maps I produce shows long distances as curves, not flat. Those maps are not flattened versions of the globe....they chart accurately distances and the lines of curvature of the globe. I repeat again that shipping, submarines and aircraft can NOT tolerate incorrect mapping.
Let's see. Those maps show a 1 minute interval of moving eclipse. we can think of it as the sun moving beyond the shadow creating object in the middle. It takes the sun 24 h to complete one circle. So, in one hour it will cross 360 degs/24 = 15 degrees. In one minute, it will cross 15 arc minutes. That corresponds to 15 nautical miles, which is 28 km. That's not a big distance.

How about the 3800 or so miles you need to sail to get from Cape Town to Southern Argentina? I suggest you look up Gnomonic Projection.....essential for nautical map creation and navigation. You'll see just why the shape of the earth is important. It's NOT flat.
The maps presented here do not display such sizes.

You couldn't get a full size map into this window. Look up Gnomonic projection and see that  some of us know what we are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomonic_projection.....some images there that show basically how it's done.

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parsec

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2010, 11:46:35 PM »
You couldn't get a full size map into this window. Look up Gnomonic projection and see that  some of us know what we are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomonic_projection.....some images there that show basically how it's done.

::) nice page. thanks a lot. i guess you know what you're talking about

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2010, 11:59:12 PM »
You couldn't get a full size map into this window. Look up Gnomonic projection and see that  some of us know what we are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomonic_projection.....some images there that show basically how it's done.

::) nice page. thanks a lot. i guess you know what you're talking about

Yw. And as you can also see from that it's impossible to make a 2D map beyond a certain size of the earth's area for the map to stay completely correct.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2010, 05:16:42 AM »
I know current maps are accurate.

1. If they weren't air travel would be really hard since that 1,000 mile trip would not put you where you expect.  No road signs at 35,000 feet.


As we've already pointed out, RE maps are distorted, yet it doesn't seem to cause any problems.


2. The FE maps are RE maps distorted to fit a disk.  But it can't be a real map since no FEer knows the size of the Earth.


It's not a real map? By what definition or standard? And again: how do you know it's not accurate?


Taking a globe with you to navigate with doesn't seem like a very viable means of navigating.

If the earth were flat, no distortions would occur, you wouldn't need to make corrections and get to your destination easy. No map does this. No single map can exist without any sort of [perfectly explainable and acceptable] form of distortion. How do you propose maps and navigation work without any distortions what-so-ever?


If mapping were done assuming a FE instead of a round one, then yes, no distortions would result. However, this is not the case.


RE maps are provably correct because they can be used to predict accurate positions and times for the path of solar eclipse totality.
If a map says the path of totality will hit the coast of Australia at exactly 4.00pm, and this actually happens, it proves that the coast of Australia must be exactly where the map says it is. If you have a map showing Australia to be a different shape, then the track of totality will not hit the coast at the predicted time.
Interestingly the tracks of solar eclipses would need to move faster the further south you are in that flat earth map, and slower nearer the north pole. Strangely, that doesn't happen. We know this doesn't happen because of the time it takes for an eclipse to start and finish at different locations (before you ask for evidence).


So what, being able to predict that an eclipse will be visible in Torquay is proof that the depiction of Australia on a globe is accurate? I don't see the connection.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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flyingmonkey

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2010, 05:38:01 AM »
As we've already pointed out, RE maps are distorted, yet it doesn't seem to cause any problems.



There.

RE maps are only distorted when you make them onto a flat plane.

In other words, flat maps cannot accurately map the Earth without distorting it.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2010, 05:47:43 AM »
In other words, flat maps cannot accurately map the Earth without distorting it.


Only if you assume that the Earth is round. If it's flat, then flat maps can accurately represent the Earth without distortion.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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flyingmonkey

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2010, 05:51:07 AM »
In other words, flat maps cannot accurately map the Earth without distorting it.


Only if you assume that the Earth is round. If it's flat, then flat maps can accurately represent the Earth without distortion.


And they don't, reasons why have already been covered.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2010, 05:52:33 AM »
Again: How do you know?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Catchpa

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2010, 07:48:24 AM »
Again: How do you know?

The burden of (dis)proof lies at you, because everyday navigation tools rely on RE. Nothing relies on FE.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2010, 09:59:32 AM »
Again: How do you know?

*facepalm*
Do you read what other people post? Do you read any of mine? Really?
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2010, 10:44:24 AM »
Again: How do you know?

Do you read anything I post? I've pointed out above how nautical maps ARE completely accurate and how Gnomonic projection is used to make them so. Gnomonic projection is essential (because the world is round). What part of 'shipping can not tolerate incorrect maps' don't you understand? Every country does Hydrographic surveys. I'm in a job because shipping maps have to be always up to date. You can't mess around with the shape of the earth when you are sending thousands of vessels every day accross oceans that will kill them if those maps are wrong. I know what I'm talking about here.

FE will NEVER produce a map that they can prove is accurate...never never never. On the other hand RE has produced maps for centuries that ARE absolutely accurate to the mile sailed. The problem here is that none of these FE'ers are sailors. They look at a road map and of course that can get them from A-B without being absolutely correct because they just have to follow the road. At sea there are NO roads. Navigation relys on a host of things that are orbitting and round. You won't find a single mariner in the entire world that thinks the earth can be flat.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 10:46:40 AM by EarthISroundISproven »

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2010, 11:29:09 AM »
Again: How do you know?

The burden of (dis)proof lies at you, because everyday navigation tools rely on RE. Nothing relies on FE.


Everyday navigation relies on distorted maps, not globes.


*facepalm*
Do you read what other people post? Do you read any of mine? Really?


Not only have I read your posts, I asked you a question about them. You haven't answered...


Do you read anything I post? I've pointed out above how nautical maps ARE completely accurate


Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2010, 12:50:59 PM »

Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

DUH how else can you show a 3D globe on a flat plane, other than by putting a grid reference replicatiing the curve of the earth? We do have globes as well and 3D Computer animated maps now too if the mathematical accuracy of nautical mapping really is beyond your comprehension. The ship has to sail on a 3D surface. The map has to be right to enable to them to do that. You are just irritating now. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about but refuse to acknowledge it.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2010, 01:38:07 PM »
Again: How do you know?

The burden of (dis)proof lies at you, because everyday navigation tools rely on RE. Nothing relies on FE.


Everyday navigation relies on distorted maps, not globes.


*facepalm*
Do you read what other people post? Do you read any of mine? Really?


Not only have I read your posts, I asked you a question about them. You haven't answered...


Do you read anything I post? I've pointed out above how nautical maps ARE completely accurate


Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

Ugh...
This is not rocket science man.

All maps are distorted to some degree.  The more surface area you try to show on a 2D map, the larger the distortions. 
The trick is to have a lot of maps with small surface areas so the distortions don't cause significant problems.

Now, if the Earth was flat, there would be 0 distortions regardless of the size of the area you're trying to look at.

But for travel to be accurate and occur, distances need to be accurate.  Flying from New York to Oslo, Norway is about 3,777 miles.  A single flat map showing this area(upper Atlantic, lower Arctic Circle) would not be accurate.  But because we know this, we can compensate and use the mapping techniques discussed earlier.
If the Earth were flat, we wouldn't need to do this. 

Why do you think you never see a "distance" marker on a flat map of the whole Earth?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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flyingmonkey

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2010, 03:30:20 AM »
Everyday navigation relies on distorted maps, not globes.

RE maps are only distorted when you make them onto a flat plane.

In other words, flat maps cannot accurately map the Earth without distorting it.


Durrr, pretty sure we covered why maps are distorted when they are flat.

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2010, 09:37:43 AM »

Not only have I read your posts, I asked you a question about them. You haven't answered...


Your question "Again, how do you know?" seems to refer to "how do I know round earth maps are accurate?"
Since I have already answered your question on the preceding pages, and I didn't feel like repeating myself, I decided to see if you could work that out for yourself. Obviously too hard for you.
In time, the subject Wilmore may master simple tasks.
Gayer doesn't live in an atmosphere of vaporised mustard like you appear to, based on your latest photo.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2010, 05:57:07 AM »

Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

DUH how else can you show a 3D globe on a flat plane, other than by putting a grid reference replicatiing the curve of the earth? We do have globes as well and 3D Computer animated maps now too if the mathematical accuracy of nautical mapping really is beyond your comprehension. The ship has to sail on a 3D surface. The map has to be right to enable to them to do that. You are just irritating now. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about but refuse to acknowledge it.


The ships supposedly get from A-B using distorted maps. How do you know that it's the maps which are distorted, and not the globe?


Why do you assume that mapes used by everyone, all the time, are inaccurate, but the ones used by nobody, ever, represent that real shape of the Earth?


Ugh...
This is not rocket science man.

All maps are distorted to some degree.  The more surface area you try to show on a 2D map, the larger the distortions. 
The trick is to have a lot of maps with small surface areas so the distortions don't cause significant problems.


I'm not asking for a theoretical explanation of why distortion exists assuming the Earth is round. I'm asking you what you base your cartographic convictions on. Why do you assume that FE maps are distorted? If it's because people use road maps every day and still get from A-B, then why do you assume these maps are in fact distorted, and that globes, which nobody uses to get from A-B, are in fact an accurate representation of the Earth?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2010, 06:01:34 AM »
Your question "Again, how do you know?" seems to refer to "how do I know round earth maps are accurate?"
Since I have already answered your question on the preceding pages, and I didn't feel like repeating myself, I decided to see if you could work that out for yourself. Obviously too hard for you.
In time, the subject Wilmore may master simple tasks.


So what, being able to predict that an eclipse will be visible in Torquay is proof that the depiction of Australia on a globe is accurate? I don't see the connection.


www.rif.org
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Catchpa

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2010, 07:11:10 AM »
Oh, you're allowed to make private notes to one self in random threads?
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Catchpa

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2010, 07:13:24 AM »
Buy: Bananas, popcorn and new shoes.

I don't understand if FE assumes their own maps are accurate.
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004forever

Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2010, 07:17:27 AM »
Why do you assume that mapes used by everyone, all the time, are inaccurate, but the ones used by nobody, ever, represent that real shape of the Earth?

I could ask you the same question.

The flat maps we use are inaccurate, yes.  But there are a few key differences, number one being we know exactly how the maps are distorted.  We know that we can't draw a perfectly accurate flat map, so we compromise with the rules of reality and make maps that are predictably flawed.  Another point is that no one uses a map of the entire Earth to navigate.  We use a bunch of little maps.  When you map an area that isn't very large, you keep the distortions to a minimum. 

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2010, 10:10:13 AM »


I'm not asking for a theoretical explanation of why distortion exists assuming the Earth is round. I'm asking you what you base your cartographic convictions on. Why do you assume that FE maps are distorted? If it's because people use road maps every day and still get from A-B, then why do you assume these maps are in fact distorted, and that globes, which nobody uses to get from A-B, are in fact an accurate representation of the Earth?

I've spent ten years making nautical maps. I can tell you right now that the FE map is incorrect. The distance between cape horn and cape town alone on the FE map is approx 5 times what it is in reality. I know it takes me 12 days at 14 knots to sail between the two. On the FE map it would take five times that! (or I would have to sail at a speed no ship can do to make it in 12 days) How stupid do you think we are. How stupid do you think the thousands of vessels and the navigators that sail them every day accross every ocean are? FACT the earth is a globe...proven every day by every ship that sails accross an ocean. Get yourself a boat and see for yourself Wilmore.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2010, 12:09:39 PM »

Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

DUH how else can you show a 3D globe on a flat plane, other than by putting a grid reference replicatiing the curve of the earth? We do have globes as well and 3D Computer animated maps now too if the mathematical accuracy of nautical mapping really is beyond your comprehension. The ship has to sail on a 3D surface. The map has to be right to enable to them to do that. You are just irritating now. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about but refuse to acknowledge it.


The ships supposedly get from A-B using distorted maps. How do you know that it's the maps which are distorted, and not the globe?


Why do you assume that mapes used by everyone, all the time, are inaccurate, but the ones used by nobody, ever, represent that real shape of the Earth?


Ugh...
This is not rocket science man.

All maps are distorted to some degree.  The more surface area you try to show on a 2D map, the larger the distortions. 
The trick is to have a lot of maps with small surface areas so the distortions don't cause significant problems.


I'm not asking for a theoretical explanation of why distortion exists assuming the Earth is round. I'm asking you what you base your cartographic convictions on. Why do you assume that FE maps are distorted? If it's because people use road maps every day and still get from A-B, then why do you assume these maps are in fact distorted, and that globes, which nobody uses to get from A-B, are in fact an accurate representation of the Earth?

Well, people DO use globes to get from point A to Point B.  Just not physical globes.  See, physical globes are very hard to actually use for very small distances.  Could you find say.. The town of Newburgh, NY on a globe?  Probably not.  I live near there and even I couldn't do it.  Not a normal one anyway.  But we can do it with digital globe.

What you really should be asking, though, is "If the maps are distorted, what happens when you try to use it over a large scale without small bits (geonomic projections)"?  The answer would be "It doesn't work accurately".  And that would be why we know it's a distorted map.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2010, 01:11:27 PM »
Yes there are 3D computer mapping systems widely used now (although all navigators are required to be able to navigate at basic levels with basic instruments still) and we can see weather systems mapped over them, tidal flows, sisemic activity etc all in animated form. These are all things that mariners use to ensure they get safely accross an ocean. There's a very good reason why the contours of a globe are projected onto a flat image. So that mariners know how far they need to sail, how long they'll be at sea, how much fuel and supplies they'll need to make that journey. Now why on earth would anyone project global contours onto a 2D map if the world were flat? Nautical mapping is not a game.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2010, 01:36:56 PM »
Yes there are 3D computer mapping systems widely used now (although all navigators are required to be able to navigate at basic levels with basic instruments still) and we can see weather systems mapped over them, tidal flows, sisemic activity etc all in animated form. These are all things that mariners use to ensure they get safely accross an ocean. There's a very good reason why the contours of a globe are projected onto a flat image. So that mariners know how far they need to sail, how long they'll be at sea, how much fuel and supplies they'll need to make that journey. Now why on earth would anyone project global contours onto a 2D map if the world were flat? Nautical mapping is not a game.

I think william's argument is that they aren't projecting a working globe into a non-working flat plane but fixing the non-working globe projection.

Essentially reverse of why they do what they do. 

And since his main argument is that you can't/don't use a physical globe to sail the ocean, that makes the whole issue ambiguous.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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EarthISroundISproven

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2010, 01:55:31 PM »

I think william's argument is that they aren't projecting a working globe into a non-working flat plane but fixing the non-working globe projection.

Essentially reverse of why they do what they do. 


But that would be easily exposed when fuel consumption doesn't then match distance sailed! What would be the point of a 'fix'. And even if it were 'fixed', there is still no way a vessel is ever sailing over a flat surface. Those sailed distances will never equate to a flat map. Every mariner knows this.

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Lorddave

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2010, 02:26:37 PM »

I think william's argument is that they aren't projecting a working globe into a non-working flat plane but fixing the non-working globe projection.

Essentially reverse of why they do what they do. 


But that would be easily exposed when fuel consumption doesn't then match distance sailed! What would be the point of a 'fix'. And even if it were 'fixed', there is still no way a vessel is ever sailing over a flat surface. Those sailed distances will never equate to a flat map. Every mariner knows this.

Have mariners ever tried to navigate using large maps that were distorted more than acceptable, resulting in the fuel consumption not matching up?  And is there data to show this?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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2fst4u

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2010, 02:47:03 PM »

Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

DUH how else can you show a 3D globe on a flat plane, other than by putting a grid reference replicatiing the curve of the earth? We do have globes as well and 3D Computer animated maps now too if the mathematical accuracy of nautical mapping really is beyond your comprehension. The ship has to sail on a 3D surface. The map has to be right to enable to them to do that. You are just irritating now. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about but refuse to acknowledge it.


The ships supposedly get from A-B using distorted maps. How do you know that it's the maps which are distorted, and not the globe?


Why do you assume that mapes used by everyone, all the time, are inaccurate, but the ones used by nobody, ever, represent that real shape of the Earth?

Any compensations made for a flat map in order to navigate correctly, end up giving you a globe model to navigate with. We use flat maps and compensate for their 'flatness' so that we are essentially working with a round model to get us places. Somehow, it seems to work. Care to explain why?

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Lorddave

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2010, 02:48:56 PM »

Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

DUH how else can you show a 3D globe on a flat plane, other than by putting a grid reference replicatiing the curve of the earth? We do have globes as well and 3D Computer animated maps now too if the mathematical accuracy of nautical mapping really is beyond your comprehension. The ship has to sail on a 3D surface. The map has to be right to enable to them to do that. You are just irritating now. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about but refuse to acknowledge it.


The ships supposedly get from A-B using distorted maps. How do you know that it's the maps which are distorted, and not the globe?


Why do you assume that mapes used by everyone, all the time, are inaccurate, but the ones used by nobody, ever, represent that real shape of the Earth?

Any compensations made for a flat map in order to navigate correctly, end up giving you a globe model to navigate with. We use flat maps and compensate for their 'flatness' so that we are essentially working with a round model to get us places. Somehow, it seems to work. Care to explain why?

He gave his explanation:
The globe model is wrong and when we compensate for the flatness of the maps, we get the proper, flat earth map.

This falls apart if you actually try to use the maps over long distances.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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2fst4u

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Re: Why are the countries on the FET map so distorted?
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2010, 02:56:08 PM »

Completely accurate, yet distorted? ???

DUH how else can you show a 3D globe on a flat plane, other than by putting a grid reference replicatiing the curve of the earth? We do have globes as well and 3D Computer animated maps now too if the mathematical accuracy of nautical mapping really is beyond your comprehension. The ship has to sail on a 3D surface. The map has to be right to enable to them to do that. You are just irritating now. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about but refuse to acknowledge it.


The ships supposedly get from A-B using distorted maps. How do you know that it's the maps which are distorted, and not the globe?


Why do you assume that mapes used by everyone, all the time, are inaccurate, but the ones used by nobody, ever, represent that real shape of the Earth?

Any compensations made for a flat map in order to navigate correctly, end up giving you a globe model to navigate with. We use flat maps and compensate for their 'flatness' so that we are essentially working with a round model to get us places. Somehow, it seems to work. Care to explain why?

He gave his explanation:
The globe model is wrong and when we compensate for the flatness of the maps, we get the proper, flat earth map.

This falls apart if you actually try to use the maps over long distances.
No... but... we aren't creating an FE model, we're creating a RE model. This is what different projections are for. We know their strengths and weaknesses and use them to our advantage.