earths gravity pulling the moon around

I googled "ruderfer experiment" and noting came up. Suffice to say, i don't think that it is all that credible.

Martin Ruderfer performed one of the most advanced ether drift experiments ever undertaken, using Mossbauer technology.

In a very ingenious experiment, he used the Mossbauer effect to detect very minute differences in the frequency of gamma rays. Ruderfer suggested that one could detect the variation in the transit time of gamma rays across a spinning disk because the time derivative of the transit time would appear as a frequency shift in the gamma ray as a function of path direction.

Ruderfer, Martin, (1961) “Errata First-Order Terrestrial Ether Drift Experiment Using the Mossbauer Radiation,” Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, 1 Nov., p 361.

In that paper Ruderfer stated that a counteracting clock-frequency effect would lead to a null result even in the presence of an ether drift.

More information here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66858.msg1784179#msg1784179

The GPS satellite which supposedly orbits the Earth, while AT THE SAME TIME it is revolving around the Sun together with the Earth, CONSTITUTES A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EFFECT.


Then, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are fulfilled.


"Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus,
ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed. "

Has it been peer-reviewed and tested? Because I can't even find a wikipedia page on it.

You still don't get it.

Ruderfer PROVED mathematically and experimentally the null ether drift result.

His classic paper is being referenced in each and every work published since 1961, on the spinning Mossbauer effect, look for them using a proper search.

Remember that this is a very advanced work.

Your picking at the straws doesn't work with me.

Obviously, you haven't done your homework on this one at all.

Neil Ashby's ideas on the subject have been debunked thoroughly.

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Ronald_Hatch/Hatch-Clock_Behavior_and_theSearch_for_an_Underlying_Mechanism_for_Relativistic_Phenomena_2002.pdf

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Ronald_Hatch/Hatch-Relativity_and_GPS-II_1995.pdf


You have failed to address the Ruderfer experiment.

Now, you are not an expert in the field, which means you have no knowledge of the Martin Ruderfer experiment of 1961.

In one of the most intriguing experiments of the 20th century, Martin Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory (1961).

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66858.msg1784179#msg1784179 (also includes the references on the Ives experiment, a hexagonal closed path Sagnac effect)


A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.


Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1782182#msg1782182


Do you understand what we are discussing here?

There is no way out for you.


The GPS satellite which supposedly orbits the Earth, while AT THE SAME TIME it is revolving around the Sun together with the Earth, CONSTITUTES A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EFFECT.


Then, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are fulfilled.


Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus,
ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed.


And things don't stop here.

In addition to the fact that GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, we have an even greater problem: the GPS clocks DO NOT RECORD the Sun's gravitational potential.

It is assumed that the orbital velocity of the Earth as it orbits the Sun is a variable; however, the GPS clocks show that the this velocity MUST BE CONSTANT, as it does not record the Sun's gravitational potential effect upon these clocks.


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1782182#msg1782182

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1784780#msg1784780


Since GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, it means that the Earth does not revolve around the Sun.


As for the paper quoted (the one I posted in my previous message) it is a remarkable demonstration of the need FOR A LOCAL ETHER THEORY, which would help explain the Sagnac effect. It was meant to show the effects of the orbital Sagnac effect, had that effect been recorded by the GPS satellites.

The paper fails to address the much more advanced concept of the Ruderfer experiment, a spinning Mossbauer effect.

Hatch says the 'Suns gravitational potential' should be ignored.

For the purposes of you understanding why GPS does not need to consider an Earth orbital motion sagnac correction you can read either paper.

Hatch says on page 1.   "Much  can  be  learned  from  relativistic  clock  behavior.   
The  Global  Positioning  System  (GPS)  has  become  a 
primary   source   for   knowledge   of   relativistic   clock   
behavior.  One  of  the  characteristics  of  clock  behavior 
clearly  evident  in  GPS  is  that  all  clocks  in  the  earth-
centered inertial (ECI) frame which are at sea level run at
the same rate. "

What part of that do you not understand?

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Ronald_Hatch/Hatch-Relativity_and_GPS-II_1995.pdf

You should have read it before posting nonsense here.


Moreover, you are showing your true colors here.

Hatch agrees the 'Suns gravitational potential' should be ignored and simply proposes a different argument for why that is necessary.

ONLY WITHIN THE MLET THEORY DOES HATCH MAKE THIS STATEMENT.

Can't you read even a section of one paragraph properly?


 I have proposed what I call a Modified Lorentz
Ether Theory (MLET) which extends the Lorentz ether
concepts to cover gravitational phenomena. Following a
brief review of MLET concepts, it is contrasted with SRT
concepts. Current data available from a number of
modern experiments are evaluated with regard to both
MLET and SRT. In general, MLET provides a more
coherent and consistent explanation of the data. In the
principal section of the paper it is shown that in the earthcentered
inertial (ECI) frame Global Positioning System
(GPS) clocks must not be adjusted for the gradient of the
sun’s gravitational potential. MLET shows that the
differential effect of the sun’s gravitational potential is
absorbed into the clock bias which converts the Selleri
transformation into an apparent Lorentz transformation.
By contrast, there is no valid explanation for this
phenomenon which is consistent with SRT/GRT and they
are thereby refuted. This is very strong evidence that
some form of Lorentz ether theory is valid and that
Einstein’s relativity theories are invalid.


Can you read English?

The sun's gravitational potential can be ignored IF AND ONLY IF we take into account AN ETHER THEORY: the one chosen by Hatch is called MLET (Modified Lorentz Ether Theory).


How could you have missed something so obvious? Or was it intentional?


Hatch concludes the very paragraph you quoted next with this statement:

 But
SRT treats kinetic energy as relative and GRT treats
gravitation as a geometric effect completely independent
of energy considerations. This suggests a need to search
for an underlying mechanism for relativistic phenomena
via some other theory. There are a number of other
reasons leading to the same conclusion. The alternative
which seems to agree best with most of the experimental
data is an absolute ether theory.

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Ronald_Hatch/Hatch-Relativity_and_GPS-II_1995.pdf

You should have read it before posting nonsense here.


Moreover, you are showing your true colors here.

Hatch agrees the 'Suns gravitational potential' should be ignored and simply proposes a different argument for why that is necessary.

ONLY WITHIN THE MLET THEORY DOES HATCH MAKE THIS STATEMENT.

Can't you read even a section of one paragraph properly?


 I have proposed what I call a Modified Lorentz
Ether Theory (MLET) which extends the Lorentz ether
concepts to cover gravitational phenomena. Following a
brief review of MLET concepts, it is contrasted with SRT
concepts. Current data available from a number of
modern experiments are evaluated with regard to both
MLET and SRT. In general, MLET provides a more
coherent and consistent explanation of the data. In the
principal section of the paper it is shown that in the earthcentered
inertial (ECI) frame Global Positioning System
(GPS) clocks must not be adjusted for the gradient of the
sun’s gravitational potential. MLET shows that the
differential effect of the sun’s gravitational potential is
absorbed into the clock bias which converts the Selleri
transformation into an apparent Lorentz transformation.
By contrast, there is no valid explanation for this
phenomenon which is consistent with SRT/GRT and they
are thereby refuted. This is very strong evidence that
some form of Lorentz ether theory is valid and that
Einstein’s relativity theories are invalid.


Can you read English?

The sun's gravitational potential can be ignored IF AND ONLY IF we take into account AN ETHER THEORY: the one chosen by Hatch is called MLET (Modified Lorentz Ether Theory).


How could you have missed something so obvious? Or was it intentional?


Hatch concludes the very paragraph you quoted next with this statement:

 But
SRT treats kinetic energy as relative and GRT treats
gravitation as a geometric effect completely independent
of energy considerations. This suggests a need to search
for an underlying mechanism for relativistic phenomena
via some other theory. There are a number of other
reasons leading to the same conclusion. The alternative
which seems to agree best with most of the experimental
data is an absolute ether theory.

Yes i saw it was a pro ether paper.

What is your point?

My point is the exactly the one you have been avoiding all along: the Ruderfer experiment.

In one of the most intriguing experiments of the 20th century, Martin Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory (1961).

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66858.msg1784179#msg1784179 (also includes the references on the Ives experiment, a hexagonal closed path Sagnac effect)


A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.


Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1782182#msg1782182


Do you understand what we are discussing here?

There is no way out for you.


The GPS satellite which supposedly orbits the Earth, while AT THE SAME TIME it is revolving around the Sun together with the Earth, CONSTITUTES A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EFFECT.


Then, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are fulfilled.


Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus,
ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed.


And things don't stop here.

In addition to the fact that GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, we have an even greater problem: the GPS clocks DO NOT RECORD the Sun's gravitational potential.

It is assumed that the orbital velocity of the Earth as it orbits the Sun is a variable; however, the GPS clocks show that the this velocity MUST BE CONSTANT, as it does not record the Sun's gravitational potential effect upon these clocks.


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1782182#msg1782182

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1784780#msg1784780


Since GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, it means that the Earth does not revolve around the Sun.

My point is the exactly the one you have been avoiding all along: the Ruderfer experiment.

In one of the most intriguing experiments of the 20th century, Martin Ruderfer proved mathematically and experimentally, using the spinning Mossbauer effect, the FIRST NULL RESULT in ether drift theory (1961).

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66858.msg1784179#msg1784179 (also includes the references on the Ives experiment, a hexagonal closed path Sagnac effect)


A GPS satellite orbiting the Earth, while at the same time the entire system is orbiting the Sun, IS A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EXPERIMENT.


Given the very fact that these GPS satellites DO NOT record the orbital Sagnac effect, means that THE HYPOTHESES OF THE RUDERFER EXPERIMENT ARE FULFILLED.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1782182#msg1782182


Do you understand what we are discussing here?

There is no way out for you.


The GPS satellite which supposedly orbits the Earth, while AT THE SAME TIME it is revolving around the Sun together with the Earth, CONSTITUTES A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EFFECT.


Then, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are fulfilled.


Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus,
ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed.


And things don't stop here.

In addition to the fact that GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, we have an even greater problem: the GPS clocks DO NOT RECORD the Sun's gravitational potential.

It is assumed that the orbital velocity of the Earth as it orbits the Sun is a variable; however, the GPS clocks show that the this velocity MUST BE CONSTANT, as it does not record the Sun's gravitational potential effect upon these clocks.


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1782182#msg1782182

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1784780#msg1784780


Since GPS satellites do not record the orbital Sagnac effect, it means that the Earth does not revolve around the Sun.

You claimed gps calculations prove the earth does not revolve around the sun.


Both ashby and Hatch support what i have told you.    An earth centred earth fixed non rotating inertial frame is being used to allow the clocks to be synchronised.      That frame was particularly chosen so that could be possible.

Has it been peer-reviewed and retested? Because math can be wrong. Einstein was wrong about the cosmological constant.

Has it been peer-reviewed and tested? Because I can't even find a wikipedia page on it.

you go on and on with your beleaivings,how about trying our word for a change

lets all agree to disagree coz we aint got the money to compare to these bastards,they lied to us from birth so i aint beleaiveing them now

Martin Ruderfer performed one of the most advanced ether drift experiments ever undertaken, using Mossbauer technology.

In a very ingenious experiment, he used the Mossbauer effect to detect very minute differences in the frequency of gamma rays. Ruderfer suggested that one could detect the variation in the transit time of gamma rays across a spinning disk because the time derivative of the transit time would appear as a frequency shift in the gamma ray as a function of path direction.

Ruderfer, Martin, (1961) “Errata First-Order Terrestrial Ether Drift Experiment Using the Mossbauer Radiation,” Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, 1 Nov., p 361.

In that paper Ruderfer stated that a counteracting clock-frequency effect would lead to a null result even in the presence of an ether drift.

More information here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66858.msg1784179#msg1784179

The GPS satellite which supposedly orbits the Earth, while AT THE SAME TIME it is revolving around the Sun together with the Earth, CONSTITUTES A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EFFECT.


Then, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are fulfilled.


"Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus,
ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed. "

It's always funny when sand uses a paper which is based off of ideas he doesn't believe in. X-rays and lower energy waves come from electrons.(which are what electricity actually is) while gamma rays come from the nucleus of atoms. He doesnt believe in atoms,the nucleus, gamma rays, or electrons. Strange how he will use his experiment though.

Quote from: sandokhan on September 01, 2016, 12:11:02 PM

Martin Ruderfer performed one of the most advanced ether drift experiments ever undertaken, using Mossbauer technology.

In a very ingenious experiment, he used the Mossbauer effect to detect very minute differences in the frequency of gamma rays. Ruderfer suggested that one could detect the variation in the transit time of gamma rays across a spinning disk because the time derivative of the transit time would appear as a frequency shift in the gamma ray as a function of path direction.

Ruderfer, Martin, (1961) “Errata First-Order Terrestrial Ether Drift Experiment Using the Mossbauer Radiation,” Physical Review Letters, Vol. 7, No. 9, 1 Nov., p 361.

In that paper Ruderfer stated that a counteracting clock-frequency effect would lead to a null result even in the presence of an ether drift.

More information here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66858.msg1784179#msg1784179

The GPS satellite which supposedly orbits the Earth, while AT THE SAME TIME it is revolving around the Sun together with the Earth, CONSTITUTES A LARGE SCALE SPINNING MOSSBAUER EFFECT.


Then, the hypotheses of the Ruderfer experiment are fulfilled.


"Why is there no requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.

However, indirectly, the counteracting effects of the transit time and clock slowing induced biases indicate that an ether drift is present. This is because there is independent evidence that clocks are slowed as a result of their speed. Thus,
ether drift must exist or else the clock slowing effect would be observed. "

It's always funny when sand uses a paper which is based off of ideas he doesn't believe in. X-rays and lower energy waves come from electrons.(which are what electricity actually is) while gamma rays come from the nucleus of atoms. He doesnt believe in atoms,the nucleus, gamma rays, or electrons. Strange how he will use his experiment though.

Yes.  I just cannot imagine what went through his mind to think he could use an expert in GPS to say GPS proves the Earth does not orbit the Sun.    Possibly just a side show to deflect from the reality you cannot use an incorrect satellite distance and/or location to calculate your position using a simple radio receiver and computer.   Hey, if the guy is so far ahead of everybody and so smart, why does he not produce a proof it is possible when on the face of it you would get a nobel prize and millions of dollars in prizes for saving the US government so much money on maintaining 24 satellites in a high earth orbit when it could just all be replaced by cell phone towers??   FFS how hard can it be to come up with a method if the satellites are not actually there?   All you have to do is reverse engineer a receiver and if you cannot do it yourself there are plenty of amateur enthusiasts only too willing to help you do it.   What on earth does he hope to achieve by posting here??

You have been given the exact and correct explanation.

That paper describes the very facts brought forth in my previous message.

An electrical charge is a flow of bosons through subquark strings.

This charge will attract the free flowing telluric currents (again, subquark strings): the creation of a magnetic field.


Conversely, let us suppose that you have a magnetic field and you place a conductor in this same field. The flow of magnetic monopoles (subquarks) within that magnetic field will induce a similar flow in the subquarks of the conductor: what we call electricity.


Clear enough?
...

More than clear:

"so quarks use strings to tie each other when forming hadrons" LOL
Piano strings, or guitar strings?
There are no "subquark strings".
There are possibly subquarks, tied by string forces.

"bosons will flow through electron and make it negatively charged" LOL
"bosons will also flow through proton and make it positively charged" LOL
"then it will attract 'telluric currents' from Earth" LOL
"subquark strings will expand to let bosons pass through" LOL
"maybe even to let Earth pass through with her telluric currents" LOL

Thanks for your explanation.
Now everything is clear.

You were given the best references on the subject, which do expand greatly on my description of the etheric atom:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1401101#msg1401101


Dr. Stephen Phillips (UCLA, Cambridge):

https://web.archive.org/web/20120128042636/http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_09_4_phillips.pdf

anu = subquark = tachyon = magnetic monopole



An electric current brought to bear upon the Anu checks their proper motions, i.e., renders them slower; the Anu exposed to it arrange themselves in parallel lines, and in each line the heart-shaped depression receives the flow, which passes out through the apex into the depression of the next, and so on. The Anu always set themselves to the current. Fig. 4. In all the diagrams the heart-shaped body, exaggerated to show the depression caused by the inflow and the point caused by the outflow, is a single Anu.

http://www.alliancesforhumanity.com/matter/matter.htm


Subquarks consist of strings of bosons, arranged as follows:



Each of the strings plays a different role: x-rays, thermal waves, uv, terrestrial gravity, radio waves, microwaves, visible light, infrared.

It is the bosons which flow through these subquarks: they form a longitudinal wave within the subquark transversal wave, this was Tesla's secret re: scalar waves.