Dear Religionists

If your God is loving and good, why does so much evil exist in the world?

This argument again? Making a human that can't perform evil deeds would screw free will. Making an earth that has no natural disasters would damage the laws of physics. God seems to want those both staying intact.

2000 years ago before CCTV and forensic science, if someone committed a crime and no one was there to see, they would get away with it. How do you stop people doing that? You tell them that even though we can't see you, you are being watched. Even though we can't judge you, you will be judged. Even though we won't punish you, you will be punished. You put the fear of God into them.

That is what god is for. Religions are templates for civilisations covering education, law, family, culture and a whole heap of other things. Christianity just happens to be heavy on family. That's its brand. Honour thy father and they mother. No divorce for Henry the VIII. No abortions, no contraception. Islaam is heavy on law. Hence sharia law and those countries having people stoned and beheading people. Confucianism is about improving the individual and heavy on education. Its no coincidence asians are smart.
That's what religions are for. that is what god is for.
You are mixing 'God' being loving with Christianity's brand for religion (family) with what god is for - law enforcement.

Now, stop asking inane questions. You aren't superior because you don't believe in God. You just happen to subscribe to a different template for society. Westernisation. One which has a serious fucking flaw. Its wealth driven. And that means no emphasis on children, and every western country in the world has a negative birth rate. IE, its not sustainable. You've been convinced women should go out to work and contraception is awesome. This is why we have a pensions crisis and its also why we have had to bus in immigrants to fill the whole where our children should have been. Our template is seriously dumb. We'd be better off being religious. So who is dumb? People who believe in god or people who don't even have enough children to ensure they will be here in any great numbers in the future?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-group-warns-white-extinction-america

Here we go again


Nimp -- There is a whole branch of theology called theodicy dealing with this, any answer this forum can give you will have been covered by someone else a thousand years ago.

Irush... -- You imply that neither freewill nor the laws of physics could be any different and still work.

Thork -- Not this 'OMGZ WITE PEEPLE WIL B EKSTINCT!' bollocks again, surely?

I don't want us to die.

Better get working on that interstellar starship, then.

Now, stop asking inane questions. You aren't superior because you don't believe in God. You just happen to subscribe to a different template for society. Westernisation. One which has a serious fucking flaw. Its wealth driven. And that means no emphasis on children, and every western country in the world has a negative birth rate. IE, its not sustainable. You've been convinced women should go out to work and contraception is awesome. This is why we have a pensions crisis and its also why we have had to bus in immigrants to fill the whole where our children should have been. Our template is seriously dumb. We'd be better off being religious. So who is dumb? People who believe in god or people who don't even have enough children to ensure they will be here in any great numbers in the future?

Leaving aside any discussion of the merits of your social beliefs, I don't see why religion is needed to fulfill them.  After all, you don't hold your beliefs because of religion, you see direct benefits to society from them.  But it seems as though you think the rest of the population need to be "tricked" into following them through religion.  Why can't your beliefs stand on their own merits?

Irush... -- You imply that neither freewill nor the laws of physics could be any different and still work.

Work? Possibly. Work the same way? Nope. It is like changing a single line of code in a program. You could easily collapse the whole thing.

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

And yet I'm considered a good person. How does that work?

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2012, 02:07:28 PM

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

And yet I'm considered a good person. How does that work?

Good by whose standard?

Have you ever strolen? Ever thought about stealing? If yes you're not good in the eyes of god, only god can be moral arbiter etc etc

This thread has been had done before and it will be done again.

This thread has been had done before and it will be done again.

The universal motto of this entire site.

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

I thought the holy spirit is everywhere.

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

Leaving aside the problem that if this was true, God really isn't all powerful, this verse appears to disagree with you.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.  -Isaiah 45:7

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2012, 02:07:28 PM

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

Leaving aside the problem that if this was true, God really isn't all powerful, this verse appears to disagree with you.

Quote

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.  -Isaiah 45:7

You atheists make me giggle.

http://www.godsgiftforyou.com/bible/biblestudy/abs115.html

Quote from: Lorddave on May 29, 2012, 02:32:20 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2012, 02:07:28 PM

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

And yet I'm considered a good person. How does that work?

Good by whose standard?

Society. No one is good by God's standards.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius on May 29, 2012, 03:08:34 PM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 29, 2012, 02:07:28 PM

Actually if you believe in Christianity, evil is the absence of God, not because of Him.

Leaving aside the problem that if this was true, God really isn't all powerful, this verse appears to disagree with you.

Quote

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.  -Isaiah 45:7

You atheists make me giggle.

http://www.godsgiftforyou.com/bible/biblestudy/abs115.html

And yet those pesky Roman Catholics didn't bother to write that and God didn't bother to correct them.

Ah, here we go, the 'bad translation' argument.

You lot have had ~2,000 years to write a proper translation of this book, frankly how much patience do you think we nonbelievers have? Either get it right or shut up. Once upon a time your god could create universes, drown armies and obliterate cities*, now he struggles to get less than a million words written in a way which actually says what he means it to say.

*Well, that is to say it says he created universes, drowned armies and obliterated cities, with yuor history of translating blunders I wouldn't be surprised if it was translated to mean that he destroyed the universe, dropped boats on the heads of the army and whitewashed cities clean, who knows? Find out next week in Bible Translation Surprise!

In any case, his own references are questionable.  Here I looked up the reference to "create" meaning "cut down" and found this:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1254

1) to create, shape, form

a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)

   1) of heaven and earth

   2) of individual man

   3) of new conditions and circumstances

   4) of transformations

b) (Niphal) to be created

   1) of heaven and earth

   2) of birth

   3) of something new

   4) of miracles

c) (Piel)

   1) to cut down

   2) to cut out

   2) to be fat

a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

In Isaiah 45:7 God is the agent and subject, he is the one doing the action.  So the correct translation according to the links authors own reference is " to shape, fashion, create" NOT "to cut down".

You have to read more into the bible than simply just quote farming...unless we're talking about the gays.  God HATES them.

If your God is loving and good, why does so much evil exist in the world?

This is agood question. I used to use this excuse to not believe in God. I would just say "look at all the crime, murders and war" how could there be a God?
 I don't know how all this evil is here. But a lot of it is caused purposely by evil men. God is good and truly will help people that seek him.

Quote from: Nimp on May 29, 2012, 10:48:07 AM

If your God is loving and good, why does so much evil exist in the world?

This is agood question. I used to use this excuse to not believe in God. I would just say "look at all the crime, murders and war" how could there be a God?
 I don't know how all this evil is here. But a lot of it is caused purposely by evil men. God is good and truly will help people that seek him.

To which we all ask, why are there evil men?

Quote from: Nimp on May 29, 2012, 10:48:07 AM

If your God is loving and good, why does so much evil exist in the world?

This is agood question. I used to use this excuse to not believe in God. I would just say "look at all the crime, murders and war" how could there be a God?
 I don't know how all this evil is here. But a lot of it is caused purposely by evil men. God is good and truly will help people that seek him.

Good men need no God to be good men.

Also:
God has never helped anyone directly.  All he does is give people hope or false belief that they have him on their side (More accurately people give that to themselves).  Sometimes the will to keep going is enough.  Most of the time it's not.  In fact, most of the time people who truly seek God's help die or have someone they love die.

And then there are people like me.  I have never sought the help of God yet I am in a better place than some people who have.  I have a job I love.  I have a beautiful and talented wife.  I have a lovely apartment.  I have no health problems.  My father has Diabetes but that's caused him to lose weight with his new diet (a good thing).  I have earned the respect of my peers.  I have no criminal record.  I have never taken illegal drugs.  I have never smoked.  I don't drink anymore than 1 drink every year or two.  I have had sex with only my wife. 

My life, is awesome.  None of this is from God because God shouldn't be helping me as I don't worship him.  And if he does, then maybe you should follow my example.

He helps those who help themselves. A twist, since when you help yourself, do you really need God's help anymore?

He helps those who help themselves. A twist, since when you help yourself, do you really need God's help anymore?

That's a nice way of saying "God doesn't do anything so stop asking. "

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on May 29, 2012, 06:45:52 PM

He helps those who help themselves. A twist, since when you help yourself, do you really need God's help anymore?

That's a nice way of saying "God doesn't do anything so stop asking. "

I know if I was God I wouldn't do anything at all. The world is fragile enough as it stands. If God starts stuffing his hand into certain areas, wouldn't it overall make a bad situation worse? Maybe God prefers to observe in silence now.

Quote from: Lorddave on May 29, 2012, 06:51:54 PM

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on May 29, 2012, 06:45:52 PM

He helps those who help themselves. A twist, since when you help yourself, do you really need God's help anymore?

That's a nice way of saying "God doesn't do anything so stop asking. "

I know if I was God I wouldn't do anything at all. The world is fragile enough as it stands. If God starts stuffing his hand into certain areas, wouldn't it overall make a bad situation worse? Maybe God prefers to observe in silence now.

I would assume that a being that has all the knowledge of existence and beyond, as well as the power to do literally anything, could stuff its hand anywhere it wanted and be just fine.

Quote from: hoppy on May 29, 2012, 05:43:40 PM

Quote from: Nimp on May 29, 2012, 10:48:07 AM

If your God is loving and good, why does so much evil exist in the world?

This is agood question. I used to use this excuse to not believe in God. I would just say "look at all the crime, murders and war" how could there be a God?
 I don't know how all this evil is here. But a lot of it is caused purposely by evil men. God is good and truly will help people that seek him.

Good men need no God to be good men.

Also:
God has never helped anyone directly.  All he does is give people hope or false belief that they have him on their side (More accurately people give that to themselves).  Sometimes the will to keep going is enough.  Most of the time it's not.  In fact, most of the time people who truly seek God's help die or have someone they love die.

And then there are people like me.  I have never sought the help of God yet I am in a better place than some people who have.  I have a job I love.  I have a beautiful and talented wife.  I have a lovely apartment.  I have no health problems.  My father has Diabetes but that's caused him to lose weight with his new diet (a good thing).  I have earned the respect of my peers.  I have no criminal record.  I have never taken illegal drugs.  I have never smoked.  I don't drink anymore than 1 drink every year or two.  I have had sex with only my wife. 

My life, is awesome.  None of this is from God because God shouldn't be helping me as I don't worship him.  And if he does, then maybe you should follow my example.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Wise words Chris. That was a good futurama episode.

However if the argumen is not that God is helping me, it's that he shouldn't be helping me because I don't worship him. Or ask him for help. Or beg. Or any of that stuff. I just go about my day and deal with what I have to deal with. If I need help I call upon my friends and family. If I need strength to keep going, I call upon my ego.
And if I need to save my life, I call 911.

And to think all of this, started by a weak and lazy OP.