What would change your mind?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1230 on: November 10, 2020, 10:16:03 PM »
Let me try and make this more clear and easy to understand.
That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job.
What baffles me is, why would you do this when you clearly know what I'm talking about and you can actually see for yourself....and so can anyone else. It strikes me as odd as hell, unless your goal is to ensure people don't get to the truth....but why?

Do you really not understand how tubes work?

The tubes are connected, the water level in both tubes equalizes.

You can't just look at it from 'any angle' because the system is self-leveling.

Do you really think they were just pouring more water into one tube to fake the experiment?  That's hilarious, and sad.
Let's not go into that. You should know this is not what I'm arguing and if not....pay attention.

No, you pay attention.  You said you could "assume any position when looking at those lines" but you can only look at them from ONE position to see them level. 
No I didn't. Don't argue this until you produce the quote where I supposedly said it. Or...pay attention.

Yes you did.  It's right up there.

"That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level." - sceptimatic

You don't seem to understand that there is only ONE height you can look at the water in the two tubes so they line up.

ONE.

You can't just move the camera around to make the horizon appear at different heights if you are lining the camera up with the water levels.

The observer can NOT assume any position like you claim.  You keep saying you didn't say that, but you did, it's right there.
Read what I've said and absorb it for a while.
I'm sure you can understand what's been said instead of adding in your own version of what it means.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1231 on: November 10, 2020, 10:19:37 PM »
we will deal with the horizon at EYE LEVEL.
Do you know what EYE LEVEL is?
Do you know what it is?
Because it clearly isn't where the horizon is.
Stop just repeatedly asserting the lies.

When you understand there is no horizon unless you make it your horizon, with your own vision, only then will you understand why it has to be eye level.
For a supposed scientists who apparently knows everything about everything, somehow, you seem to fail at understanding the basics of everything.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1232 on: November 10, 2020, 10:27:01 PM »
Hey there! I got here really late to the party :(

I am still working my way through the 41 pages of responses, but seeing the "bookends" makes me feel like this response should be first.

@sceptimatic

I dig it!  If I understand you properly, your contention is that with the horizon dead center and level/horizontal through your lens(es) ("horizon drop" and elevation are irrelevant / red herring) - as you zoom in, assuming a sphere earth, the horizon should ultimately disappear as you zoom "beyond" the "physical point" of the horizon (into "empty space"/sky). 

The fact that this doesn't happen (the horizon remains a fixed horizontal, never curving, line dividing the lenses as it did initially, until you zoom so far that it all hazes out due to interaction with air/matter) suggest that the plane continues as far as the eye can see, even aided.

Yep. It's basic and simple to grasp, right?
Yet too many people are unwilling to engage logic to it because the global Earth has been battered and bullied into our heads from almost the cradle.
Mass indoctrination is a powerful tool against those who question it.


Quote from: jack44556677

@JackBlack

Does the above make sense to you?  The "horizon drop" is irrelevant.

@sparks0314

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What would it take for you to change your mind, whichever side you're on?

A worthy question to ponder earnestly!  Most people never seriously consider it.

I am on neither "side".  I am a globe skeptic.  I don't know what the shape of the entire world is, but I have sufficient evidence that it is not, and likely cannot, be spherical.

For me the best piece of evidence glaringly absent from the "empirical science" of the globe model is the empirical measurement of the (fictional) curvature of water's surface at rest.  Water does not curve at rest, and cannot due to its fundamental behavior, in the sustained convex manner the globe model requires, no one has EVER measured that to be the case, and whenever measured - water's surface is always level/horizontal and flat at rest (which is a natural law of hydrostatics that has stood unchallenged for centuries).

If anyone could measure this perpetually calculated (but never measured in the history of humanity) convex curvature of water's surface at rest as required by the globe model - that would do a LOT to getting it a chance to FINALLY become a part of empirical science.

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For me, if I went up in an airplane and saw the world flat below me, I think that would be a pretty big sign.

Then rejoice! You have that "big sign"!  The horizon is an optical illusion, the edge of nothing but our vision, and does not curve at any altitude.

As for the curvature you think you witnessed, there are several possibilities :

1.  Placebo.  It's a hell of a drug!  This is, by far, the most common reason that people believe they see the "curve of the earth" in a plane.  No curvature exists to the horizon at any altitude, and even those that believe it does calculate that it is impossible to see from any airplane.

2.  Optical/lens distortion caused by the plane window / air / etc.  This IS what happened on the concorde. Intentionally or otherwise the plane windows were curved to cause the illusion (which, partially by overt advertising to that effect, the customers were paying through the nose for)

3.  Physical deformation of the eye/processing.  Least likely, but possible!

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Also if I went to Antarctica and saw the cliffs to keep me from falling off, that would certainly make me think.

Get crazy rich and pack warmly! Otherwise (except for the die-hards) give up that fantasy!  In any case, the idea that antarctica is, or is a part of, a giant ice wall that encircles the world is merely speculation.
Bravo for a really good post.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1233 on: November 10, 2020, 10:49:29 PM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)

So simple to understand and yet people still believe we walk about on a oblate spheroid.

You cannot have it both ways and you should all be well aware of this.

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1234 on: November 11, 2020, 12:42:25 AM »
If you do it correctly I won't need to call fake. You know this.
You mean if it shows you are wrong you will call it fake, and it is only if it agrees with you you wont.
Again, this shows you have no interest in the truth and no interest in accepting that you are wrong.
When done correctly, it shows you are wrong, yet you still call it fake.

You can easily convince me if you show a definite. A fact. A legitimate, provable showing of what I've asked.
Stop lying.
You have no interest in ever accepting that you are wrong, and literally nothing will convince you that you are wrong.
You have been provided with plenty of evidence that you are wrong which you simply dismiss.
You have been provided with a logical argument which proves you are wrong, not just is evidence which supports you being wrong, but literally proves you are wrong, and you just ignore it.

When you understand there is no horizon...
So when I understand pure delusional BS?
No thanks. I will stick to reality.
You have provided no justification at all for why the horizon needs to magically be at eye level and have been provided proof that it is not at eye level.

If you actually understood what the horizon is, you would understand it does not need to be at eye level, as clearly shown by the logical argument you are yet to refute.

Once more, the horizon is the edge of the round Earth.
Just like a ball has an edge, which produces a "horizon", so does the round Earth.

For a supposed scientists who apparently knows everything about everything, somehow, you seem to fail at understanding the basics of everything.
Not accepting your BS doesn't mean I don't understand. It means I see through your BS.
If it truly was my lack of understanding you would be able to rationally respond to what I have said rather than continually ignoring it.

Here are the issues you are still yet to address:
Why haven't you explained how GPS can work with instantaneous light?
Why haven't you pointed out a single problem with my argument for the RE having a horizon which would be basically indistinguishable from "eye level" when you are close to Earth? Why do you instead repeat the same lie that a RE wouldn't have a horizon?
Why don't you explain why the horizon is clearly observed to be below eye-level from a high mountain?
Why don't you explain just how the "flat" water magically manages to obscure an object that is above it?
Why don't you explain how your alleged flat water works on your alleged bowl Earth to produce the oceans, rather than as in my example image where it completely floods the lower regions while leaving the top dry?
Why don't you show that you can fit anything to anything, by fitting a triangle to those 9 points?
Why don't you provide evidence of your allegedly flat water rather than just repeatedly asserting that water is magically flat?


Here is an example of one of the logical arguments you are yet to engage with in any meaningful way, which clearly shows beyond any doubt that YOU ARE WRONG:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 km above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.
9 - Thus your claim for why you think Earth is flat is pure garbage.

Again, if I truly didn't understand, rather than it just being you repeatedly spouting BS, you would easily address these issues and show just what is wrong with the logical argument. But I suspect you will deflect yet again.
Grow up.

Yep. It's basic and simple to grasp, right?
Yet too many people are unwilling to engage logic
Yep, people like you completely unwilling to use or engage with logic, as it shows you are wrong, beyond any sane doubt.
Instead you just try to bully others into submission, insulting them and suggesting they can't understand simple concepts and dismissing all evidence that shows you are wrong as fake.

You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.
You mean which you have repeatedly lied about, by repeating the same lie that it wouldn't be seen, the same lie which has been refuted countless times.

Stop just repeating the same lie and actually attempt to justify it and deal with the refutation of it.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1235 on: November 11, 2020, 02:24:15 AM »
The simple truth is in my opinion the experiment I've already done is equivalent to the experiment you want me to do, so I simply can't see the point, it would be a complete waste of my time.
Don't bother doing it then. The experiment is only for yourself. It has no bearing on me so feel free to shy away from it.

Even if I wanted to right now, I couldn't, due to COVID-19 lockdown restrictions. But since I'm 100% convinced that your experiment would give me the same result as my own earlier experiment, I wouldn't bother anyway.

Quote from: robinofloxley
Furthermore it's perfectly clear that others have done similar experiments and their results agree with mine.
Yep, similar or the same experiments that mean absolutely nothing are are absolutely bogus....and I believe you know this.

Quote from: robinofloxley
In particular you've been shown photographic evidence of an experiment identical to the one you say I should go out and do and you just dismiss it as fake, so it's fair to assume if I do your experiment and take photos to prove it, that you'll call fake on mine as well. It's what you do.
If you do it correctly I won't need to call fake. You know this.

I can assure you I don't know or believe this one bit. You are essentially asserting I know the earth is flat and for some bizarre reason am trying to claim the opposite. No idea why you would think that. I do believe that there are some fake FE people on YouTube who know full well that the earth is round, but have made money and become somewhat well known with their videos, but I hardly think lurking on here and debating with you is going to lead to fame or fortune, so what reason would I have to do this?

I do however give you the benefit of doubt and think you are genuinely a FEer and not a troll. Wrong, but not a troll.

Quote from: robinofloxley
I don't need to convince myself, I've already done my own experiment to my own satisfaction. I know I won't be able to convince you either. I mean you could have a go at convincing me if you like, but your words alone won't budge me as you never offer any evidence to back them up.
You can easily convince me if you show a definite. A fact. A legitimate, provable showing of what I've asked.
If you don't want to do that then, like I said, don't waste your own time.
I'm not waiting on you for any proof. I know the proof for myself. You would be well served by proving it to yourself by your own hands instead of hanging on to other people's bogus garbage and passing it off as your own.

Nah, you've dismissed other evidence is fake, I'm totally convinced you'd do the same if I presented some to you. I don't mind wasting a bit of time with diagrams and maths and stuff, I quite enjoy it, but not going to all the trouble of repeating a time consuming experiment others have already done and you've already dismissed out of hand.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1236 on: November 11, 2020, 04:41:55 AM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)

So simple to understand and yet people still believe we walk about on a oblate spheroid.

You cannot have it both ways and you should all be well aware of this.

Sceptimatic, nobody here is asking for it both ways. The curve downwards  we experience standing on the planet, is a lot less obvious compared to standing on a beach ball. You forget the size difference between a human and this planet. You also forget, most of us are trained in perspective.

It's true the height of the horizon line always corresponding to the observer's eye, is determined by the latter's position. But it's false this is proof the earth is flat.

Would you care to pass comment on the circularity of the horizon line, as seen by a sailor or traveller on the open sea? By being on a ship's top deck and scribing a complete turn, one can notice the circularity of the horizon.

You also need to factor in that the visual field of the human eye, is about 30 percent. This means when we look at the horizon, we distinctly only see a part of it - that which is directly opposite us - which appears straight.

However, the horizon would still appear straight, even if we could embrace the whole of it in one glance. The reason being that the circularity of the horizon is always on the level of the human eye.

Experiment time:
A child playing with a hula hoop, lifts it up, and brings it level with his eyes, with his head in the centre. He will no longer see the uniform curve of the hoop, but a straight line - just like the horizon.

Go ahead and try it, sceptimatic. Be a daredevil!

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1237 on: November 11, 2020, 04:52:22 AM »
Let me try and make this more clear and easy to understand.
That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job.
What baffles me is, why would you do this when you clearly know what I'm talking about and you can actually see for yourself....and so can anyone else. It strikes me as odd as hell, unless your goal is to ensure people don't get to the truth....but why?

Do you really not understand how tubes work?

The tubes are connected, the water level in both tubes equalizes.

You can't just look at it from 'any angle' because the system is self-leveling.

Do you really think they were just pouring more water into one tube to fake the experiment?  That's hilarious, and sad.
Let's not go into that. You should know this is not what I'm arguing and if not....pay attention.

No, you pay attention.  You said you could "assume any position when looking at those lines" but you can only look at them from ONE position to see them level. 
No I didn't. Don't argue this until you produce the quote where I supposedly said it. Or...pay attention.

Yes you did.  It's right up there.

"That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level." - sceptimatic

You don't seem to understand that there is only ONE height you can look at the water in the two tubes so they line up.

ONE.

You can't just move the camera around to make the horizon appear at different heights if you are lining the camera up with the water levels.

The observer can NOT assume any position like you claim.  You keep saying you didn't say that, but you did, it's right there.
Read what I've said and absorb it for a while.
I'm sure you can understand what's been said instead of adding in your own version of what it means.

Well I quoted your own words.  If you didn't mean what you said, maybe you should have said something else.

Come back when you understand how two objects line up.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1238 on: November 11, 2020, 02:43:55 PM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)



This is amazing.
At what point would you expect to not see the water and start seeing sky?
I mean the horizon line is literally where you cease to see water and see sky.

Have you ever seen an orange or a watermelon or a ball?
Do you expect to see the backside of the ball?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 03:05:55 PM by Themightykabool »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1239 on: November 11, 2020, 03:24:23 PM »
I really wasn't going to add anything further to this discussion but after reading Sceptimatics most recent posts I felt compelled to reply in order to express my appreciation.  During a time when the world is otherwise so full of doom and gloom at the moment we all need something to make us smile for a change and help us escape the reality of how the world is at present.  Sceptimatics latest posts do just that.  So my thanks for helping me smile for a change.

It's a bit like watching a film or reading a novel where you can escape reality for a short period of time and just let your imagination go with it and enjoy whatever you see or read.

I guess the difference between Sceptimatic and everyone else is that we can differentiate or distinguish between what is real and what is simply a product of ones imagination.



« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 03:35:37 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1240 on: November 11, 2020, 09:33:02 PM »
Another beautiful feature of our planet, is the horizon is always the same distance from the observer, in all directions, dependant on the observer's height. This is how and why the horizon calculator is so accurate. The horizon is equidistant from every observer on the planet at all times.

If the earth were flat, people would report seeing the horizon closer, the closer you get to the edge, or the dome, and further away in the opposite direction. That has never happened to anybody - ever.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1241 on: November 11, 2020, 09:56:10 PM »
The simple truth is in my opinion the experiment I've already done is equivalent to the experiment you want me to do, so I simply can't see the point, it would be a complete waste of my time.
Don't bother doing it then. The experiment is only for yourself. It has no bearing on me so feel free to shy away from it.

Even if I wanted to right now, I couldn't, due to COVID-19 lockdown restrictions. But since I'm 100% convinced that your experiment would give me the same result as my own earlier experiment, I wouldn't bother anyway.

Quote from: robinofloxley
Furthermore it's perfectly clear that others have done similar experiments and their results agree with mine.
Yep, similar or the same experiments that mean absolutely nothing are are absolutely bogus....and I believe you know this.

Quote from: robinofloxley
In particular you've been shown photographic evidence of an experiment identical to the one you say I should go out and do and you just dismiss it as fake, so it's fair to assume if I do your experiment and take photos to prove it, that you'll call fake on mine as well. It's what you do.
If you do it correctly I won't need to call fake. You know this.

I can assure you I don't know or believe this one bit. You are essentially asserting I know the earth is flat and for some bizarre reason am trying to claim the opposite. No idea why you would think that. I do believe that there are some fake FE people on YouTube who know full well that the earth is round, but have made money and become somewhat well known with their videos, but I hardly think lurking on here and debating with you is going to lead to fame or fortune, so what reason would I have to do this?

I do however give you the benefit of doubt and think you are genuinely a FEer and not a troll. Wrong, but not a troll.

Quote from: robinofloxley
I don't need to convince myself, I've already done my own experiment to my own satisfaction. I know I won't be able to convince you either. I mean you could have a go at convincing me if you like, but your words alone won't budge me as you never offer any evidence to back them up.
You can easily convince me if you show a definite. A fact. A legitimate, provable showing of what I've asked.
If you don't want to do that then, like I said, don't waste your own time.
I'm not waiting on you for any proof. I know the proof for myself. You would be well served by proving it to yourself by your own hands instead of hanging on to other people's bogus garbage and passing it off as your own.

Nah, you've dismissed other evidence is fake, I'm totally convinced you'd do the same if I presented some to you. I don't mind wasting a bit of time with diagrams and maths and stuff, I quite enjoy it, but not going to all the trouble of repeating a time consuming experiment others have already done and you've already dismissed out of hand.
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.
You mention evidence but evidence is neither here nor there in terms of being factual.

You could have evidence that someone keeps peeking from behind curtains in a home but never see the person. You can assume it is a person based on what you view as your evidence.....but is it a fact?

Now you may think this is a trivial thing I've put....but the same principle applies to everything that is put forward about your globe and....if you be honest, you will accept this to be the case.

You're obviously well within your rights to follow the model handed to you on a plate.....and, yes, it has been handed to you on a plate, as it has been to just about all of us. You choose to accept it based on the so called evidence that is pushed as factual but something you do not know to actually be that.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1242 on: November 11, 2020, 10:03:40 PM »
Sceptimatic, nobody here is asking for it both ways. The curve downwards  we experience standing on the planet, is a lot less obvious compared to standing on a beach ball. You forget the size difference between a human and this planet. You also forget, most of us are trained in perspective.

It's true the height of the horizon line always corresponding to the observer's eye, is determined by the latter's position. But it's false this is proof the earth is flat.

Would you care to pass comment on the circularity of the horizon line, as seen by a sailor or traveller on the open sea? By being on a ship's top deck and scribing a complete turn, one can notice the circularity of the horizon.

You also need to factor in that the visual field of the human eye, is about 30 percent. This means when we look at the horizon, we distinctly only see a part of it - that which is directly opposite us - which appears straight.
This is the exact point I'm making. The distance we all see, individuually, is our very own horizon line due to that convergence of our very own sight.
It has to be level. It cannot be anything else.



Quote from: Smoke Machine
However, the horizon would still appear straight, even if we could embrace the whole of it in one glance. The reason being that the circularity of the horizon is always on the level of the human eye.
It's got nothing to with circular, it's got everything to do with convergence over distance of vision to each person.
The mere FRACT that there is a convergence kills off the global model, stone dead. Stone dead.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
Experiment time:
A child playing with a hula hoop, lifts it up, and brings it level with his eyes, with his head in the centre. He will no longer see the uniform curve of the hoop, but a straight line - just like the horizon.

Go ahead and try it, sceptimatic. Be a daredevil!
This makes no sense in terms of trying to use a hula hoops against what we actually do see.
Try again, go on, be a daredevil.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1243 on: November 11, 2020, 10:04:45 PM »
Let me try and make this more clear and easy to understand.
That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job.
What baffles me is, why would you do this when you clearly know what I'm talking about and you can actually see for yourself....and so can anyone else. It strikes me as odd as hell, unless your goal is to ensure people don't get to the truth....but why?

Do you really not understand how tubes work?

The tubes are connected, the water level in both tubes equalizes.

You can't just look at it from 'any angle' because the system is self-leveling.

Do you really think they were just pouring more water into one tube to fake the experiment?  That's hilarious, and sad.
Let's not go into that. You should know this is not what I'm arguing and if not....pay attention.

No, you pay attention.  You said you could "assume any position when looking at those lines" but you can only look at them from ONE position to see them level. 
No I didn't. Don't argue this until you produce the quote where I supposedly said it. Or...pay attention.

Yes you did.  It's right up there.

"That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level." - sceptimatic

You don't seem to understand that there is only ONE height you can look at the water in the two tubes so they line up.

ONE.

You can't just move the camera around to make the horizon appear at different heights if you are lining the camera up with the water levels.

The observer can NOT assume any position like you claim.  You keep saying you didn't say that, but you did, it's right there.
Read what I've said and absorb it for a while.
I'm sure you can understand what's been said instead of adding in your own version of what it means.

Well I quoted your own words.  If you didn't mean what you said, maybe you should have said something else.

Come back when you understand how two objects line up.
You quoted what I said and used it in a different context. Pay attention or come back when you're capable.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1244 on: November 11, 2020, 10:07:16 PM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)



This is amazing.
At what point would you expect to not see the water and start seeing sky?
I mean the horizon line is literally where you cease to see water and see sky.

Have you ever seen an orange or a watermelon or a ball?
Do you expect to see the backside of the ball?
Have a think on your version of a horizon line. Is this what you think....in bold?

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1245 on: November 11, 2020, 10:17:53 PM »
Another beautiful feature of our planet, is the horizon is always the same distance from the observer, in all directions, dependant on the observer's height. This is how and why the horizon calculator is so accurate. The horizon is equidistant from every observer on the planet at all times.

If the earth were flat, people would report seeing the horizon closer, the closer you get to the edge, or the dome, and further away in the opposite direction. That has never happened to anybody - ever.
Nope. The horizon is your very own convergence. It has nothing to do with Earth size and everything to do with how far you can see before that convergence (horizon line).

You can see much farther before full convergence (horizon line) the more elevated to get due to a little less atmosphere to impede your view and also the angle of your view without looking for your horizon line can ensure you see objects you wouldn't normally have been able to see if you were stood on a level ground looking through more densely packed atmosphere.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1246 on: November 11, 2020, 10:38:08 PM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)



This is amazing.
At what point would you expect to not see the water and start seeing sky?
I mean the horizon line is literally where you cease to see water and see sky.

Have you ever seen an orange or a watermelon or a ball?
Do you expect to see the backside of the ball?
Have a think on your version of a horizon line. Is this what you think....in bold?

Yes
Wheres rab?
I need his copy paste.
RIP.

maybe you could answer what a "round earth horizon" should look like to educate the rest of us?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1247 on: November 11, 2020, 10:38:31 PM »
Sceptimatic, nobody here is asking for it both ways. The curve downwards  we experience standing on the planet, is a lot less obvious compared to standing on a beach ball. You forget the size difference between a human and this planet. You also forget, most of us are trained in perspective.

It's true the height of the horizon line always corresponding to the observer's eye, is determined by the latter's position. But it's false this is proof the earth is flat.

Would you care to pass comment on the circularity of the horizon line, as seen by a sailor or traveller on the open sea? By being on a ship's top deck and scribing a complete turn, one can notice the circularity of the horizon.

You also need to factor in that the visual field of the human eye, is about 30 percent. This means when we look at the horizon, we distinctly only see a part of it - that which is directly opposite us - which appears straight.
This is the exact point I'm making. The distance we all see, individuually, is our very own horizon line due to that convergence of our very own sight.
It has to be level. It cannot be anything else.



Quote from: Smoke Machine
However, the horizon would still appear straight, even if we could embrace the whole of it in one glance. The reason being that the circularity of the horizon is always on the level of the human eye.
It's got nothing to with circular, it's got everything to do with convergence over distance of vision to each person.
The mere FRACT that there is a convergence kills off the global model, stone dead. Stone dead.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
Experiment time:
A child playing with a hula hoop, lifts it up, and brings it level with his eyes, with his head in the centre. He will no longer see the uniform curve of the hoop, but a straight line - just like the horizon.

Go ahead and try it, sceptimatic. Be a daredevil!
This makes no sense in terms of trying to use a hula hoops against what we actually do see.
Try again, go on, be a daredevil.

On the contrary. It makes perfect sense in terms of what we actually do see.

It is more evident out at sea where the seascape is stripped bare of mountains, valleys, hills, etc., and buildings like you get on the land.

Whenever we look at the horizon, it is like we are standing in the centre of our own personal giant hula hoop at eye level. Because it is at eye level, we see it as a straight line. We don't see the circulature.

The circulature goes hand in hand with the fact Earth is a sphere.

Have you tested the earth horizon  calculator, sceptimatic? Being a lover of the horizon like you are, I expect you have.......

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1248 on: November 11, 2020, 10:39:44 PM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)



This is amazing.
At what point would you expect to not see the water and start seeing sky?
I mean the horizon line is literally where you cease to see water and see sky.

Have you ever seen an orange or a watermelon or a ball?
Do you expect to see the backside of the ball?
Have a think on your version of a horizon line. Is this what you think....in bold?

Yes
Wheres rab?
I need his copy paste.
RIP.

maybe you could answer what a "round earth horizon" should look like to educate the rest of us?
Do you mean your global Earth?

*

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1249 on: November 11, 2020, 10:41:40 PM »
Sceptimatic, nobody here is asking for it both ways. The curve downwards  we experience standing on the planet, is a lot less obvious compared to standing on a beach ball. You forget the size difference between a human and this planet. You also forget, most of us are trained in perspective.

It's true the height of the horizon line always corresponding to the observer's eye, is determined by the latter's position. But it's false this is proof the earth is flat.

Would you care to pass comment on the circularity of the horizon line, as seen by a sailor or traveller on the open sea? By being on a ship's top deck and scribing a complete turn, one can notice the circularity of the horizon.

You also need to factor in that the visual field of the human eye, is about 30 percent. This means when we look at the horizon, we distinctly only see a part of it - that which is directly opposite us - which appears straight.
This is the exact point I'm making. The distance we all see, individuually, is our very own horizon line due to that convergence of our very own sight.
It has to be level. It cannot be anything else.



Quote from: Smoke Machine
However, the horizon would still appear straight, even if we could embrace the whole of it in one glance. The reason being that the circularity of the horizon is always on the level of the human eye.
It's got nothing to with circular, it's got everything to do with convergence over distance of vision to each person.
The mere FRACT that there is a convergence kills off the global model, stone dead. Stone dead.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
Experiment time:
A child playing with a hula hoop, lifts it up, and brings it level with his eyes, with his head in the centre. He will no longer see the uniform curve of the hoop, but a straight line - just like the horizon.

Go ahead and try it, sceptimatic. Be a daredevil!
This makes no sense in terms of trying to use a hula hoops against what we actually do see.
Try again, go on, be a daredevil.

On the contrary. It makes perfect sense in terms of what we actually do see.

It is more evident out at sea where the seascape is stripped bare of mountains, valleys, hills, etc., and buildings like you get on the land.

Whenever we look at the horizon, it is like we are standing in the centre of our own personal giant hula hoop at eye level. Because it is at eye level, we see it as a straight line. We don't see the circulature.

The circulature goes hand in hand with the fact Earth is a sphere.

Have you tested the earth horizon  calculator, sceptimatic? Being a lover of the horizon like you are, I expect you have.......
It's nothing like standing inside a hula hoop and seeing hula hoop edging/rim.

And using a hula hoop as your sphere just makes it even more silly.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1250 on: November 11, 2020, 10:45:26 PM »
Another beautiful feature of our planet, is the horizon is always the same distance from the observer, in all directions, dependant on the observer's height. This is how and why the horizon calculator is so accurate. The horizon is equidistant from every observer on the planet at all times.

If the earth were flat, people would report seeing the horizon closer, the closer you get to the edge, or the dome, and further away in the opposite direction. That has never happened to anybody - ever.
Nope. The horizon is your very own convergence. It has nothing to do with Earth size and everything to do with how far you can see before that convergence (horizon line).

You can see much farther before full convergence (horizon line) the more elevated to get due to a little less atmosphere to impede your view and also the angle of your view without looking for your horizon line can ensure you see objects you wouldn't normally have been able to see if you were stood on a level ground looking through more densely packed atmosphere.

Be a big boy and go to your local toy shop and buy yourself a hula hoop and test it.

Your distance to the horizon, where lines around you converge, has everything to do altitude. Distance of eye level above the ground. You put too much weight on the atmosphere being most dense at sea level and creating increased convergence. That's the pseudo scientist in you talking. It has no basis in reality.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 10:46:58 PM by Smoke Machine »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1251 on: November 11, 2020, 11:44:33 PM »
Another beautiful feature of our planet, is the horizon is always the same distance from the observer, in all directions, dependant on the observer's height. This is how and why the horizon calculator is so accurate. The horizon is equidistant from every observer on the planet at all times.

If the earth were flat, people would report seeing the horizon closer, the closer you get to the edge, or the dome, and further away in the opposite direction. That has never happened to anybody - ever.
Nope. The horizon is your very own convergence. It has nothing to do with Earth size and everything to do with how far you can see before that convergence (horizon line).

You can see much farther before full convergence (horizon line) the more elevated to get due to a little less atmosphere to impede your view and also the angle of your view without looking for your horizon line can ensure you see objects you wouldn't normally have been able to see if you were stood on a level ground looking through more densely packed atmosphere.

Be a big boy and go to your local toy shop and buy yourself a hula hoop and test it.


Test what?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1252 on: November 12, 2020, 01:13:16 AM »
Another beautiful feature of our planet, is the horizon is always the same distance from the observer, in all directions, dependant on the observer's height. This is how and why the horizon calculator is so accurate. The horizon is equidistant from every observer on the planet at all times.

If the earth were flat, people would report seeing the horizon closer, the closer you get to the edge, or the dome, and further away in the opposite direction. That has never happened to anybody - ever.
Nope. The horizon is your very own convergence. It has nothing to do with Earth size and everything to do with how far you can see before that convergence (horizon line).

You can see much farther before full convergence (horizon line) the more elevated to get due to a little less atmosphere to impede your view and also the angle of your view without looking for your horizon line can ensure you see objects you wouldn't normally have been able to see if you were stood on a level ground looking through more densely packed atmosphere.

Be a big boy and go to your local toy shop and buy yourself a hula hoop and test it.


Test what?

Test that the curve of a circle can be observed as a straight, horizontal line, as it is with the horizon.

Circles are also important in the study of longitude and latitude of this planet. Great circles and small circles help summarise latitude and longitude. A great circle is any circle of earth's circumference whose centre coincides with the center of the earth. Every meridian is one-half of a great circle that passes through the poles. Only one parallel is a great circle - the equatorial parallel. Small circles on the other hand, splits the globe into unequal sections.

I may seem to be off-topic, but am I? If we are going to talk about geography, we'd might as well sprinkle it with actual useful information.

It's not my fault "flat earth" is another way of declaring denial of the scientific method. The scientific method involves the application of common sense in an organized and objective manner.


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JackBlack

  • 21919
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1253 on: November 12, 2020, 01:42:44 AM »
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.
Yes, you have the right to lie as much as you want, and we have the right to call you out on those lies.

You mention evidence but evidence is neither here nor there in terms of being factual.
Meanwhile, I provided an irrefutable logical argument you just repeatedly ignore.
Do you keep ignoring it because you can't just dismiss it as fake as instead of being evidence it is an actual proof that you are wrong?

You're obviously well within your rights to follow the model handed to you on a plate.....and, yes, it has been handed to you on a plate, as it has been to just about all of us. You choose to accept it based on the so called evidence that is pushed as factual but something you do not know to actually be that.
Stop lying.
We accept it based upon the mountains of evidence to support it, some of which we have obtained ourselves, some of which clearly refutes the idea that Earth is flat.
Stop acting like we are just accepting whatever BS we are told. If we were doing that, we would accept your BS.

This is the exact point I'm making. The distance we all see, individuually, is our very own horizon line due to that convergence of our very own sight.
Yes, that is one of the many lies you keep repeating, but it is just that, a lie.
We can see objects beyond the horizon, so it clearly isn't some magical limit to vision.
We can also use various tools which enhance our ability to see, and they cannot get any further past the horizon than we can, so it clearly isn't some magical limit to vision.

It has to be level. It cannot be anything else.
Except as repeatedly shown, it can be and is.
You are yet to provide any justification for why it magically must be level. Meanwhile, an irrefutable argument has been provided to you which shows it does not need to be level.

The mere FRACT that there is a convergence kills off the global model, stone dead. Stone dead.
No, it doesn't.
That is simply perspective. It in no way refutes the RE.
However the fact that level parallel lines converge above the horizon shows that Earth is not flat, and that the horizon is not the convergence point.
So rather than killing off the globe, convergence kills your BS.

Have a think on your version of a horizon line. Is this what you think....in bold?
While not him, I think I can answer for him, that is pretty much what it is.
It is the edge of Earth, below which you see land/sea and above which you see sky.
Just like if you pick up any ball, there is an edge, "below" which you see the ball, and "above" which you see the area around the ball.

The horizon is your very own convergence. It has nothing to do with Earth size and everything to do with how far you can see before that convergence (horizon line).
Stop just repeating the same lies.
It clearly has nothing to do with the convergence point, as it is clearly observed to be below the convergence point.
It clearly has nothing to do with the convergence point as optics which magnify things or with better resolution do not allow you to see further.
It clearly has nothing to do with the convergence point as objects don't merely shrink as they approach a horizon infinitely far away, instead they go over the horizon and disappear from the bottom up.

You can see much farther before full convergence (horizon line) the more elevated to get due to a little less atmosphere to impede your view
This directly contradicts the idea of it being the convergence point.
The atmosphere making it hard to see through doesn't magically bring the convergence point closer.
Looking around on a foggy day is all that is needed to realise that.
While you can't see as far, parallel lines don't magically converge much closer, and instead of a clear horizon line, there is just a blur where the ground/sea blurs into sky.

also the angle of your view without looking for your horizon line can ensure you see objects you wouldn't normally have been able to see if you were stood on a level ground looking through more densely packed atmosphere.
And if that was the case optics would make it further away, but they don't.
The distance to the horizon doesn't depend upon what you use to view the horizon. Instead it depends upon your height, because the horizon is due to the curvature of Earth, and the land/sea beyond the horizon (and level with it) is blocked by the horizon.

Now again, care to grow up and address the multitude of issues facing your lies, including the logical arguments which irrefutably show you are wrong?

Why haven't you explained how GPS can work with instantaneous light?
Why haven't you pointed out a single problem with my argument for the RE having a horizon which would be basically indistinguishable from "eye level" when you are close to Earth? Why do you instead repeat the same lie that a RE wouldn't have a horizon?
Why don't you explain why the horizon is clearly observed to be below eye-level from a high mountain?
Why don't you explain just how the "flat" water magically manages to obscure an object that is above it?
Why don't you explain how your alleged flat water works on your alleged bowl Earth to produce the oceans, rather than as in my example image where it completely floods the lower regions while leaving the top dry?
Why don't you show that you can fit anything to anything, by fitting a triangle to those 9 points?
Why don't you provide evidence of your allegedly flat water rather than just repeatedly asserting that water is magically flat?


Here is an example of one of the logical arguments you are yet to engage with in any meaningful way, which clearly shows beyond any doubt that YOU ARE WRONG:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 km above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.
9 - Thus your claim for why you think Earth is flat is pure garbage.

Again, if I truly didn't understand, rather than it just being you repeatedly spouting BS, you would easily address these issues and show just what is wrong with the logical argument. But I suspect you will deflect yet again.

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JJA

  • 6869
  • Math is math!
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1254 on: November 12, 2020, 02:54:25 AM »
Let me try and make this more clear and easy to understand.
That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job.
What baffles me is, why would you do this when you clearly know what I'm talking about and you can actually see for yourself....and so can anyone else. It strikes me as odd as hell, unless your goal is to ensure people don't get to the truth....but why?

Do you really not understand how tubes work?

The tubes are connected, the water level in both tubes equalizes.

You can't just look at it from 'any angle' because the system is self-leveling.

Do you really think they were just pouring more water into one tube to fake the experiment?  That's hilarious, and sad.
Let's not go into that. You should know this is not what I'm arguing and if not....pay attention.

No, you pay attention.  You said you could "assume any position when looking at those lines" but you can only look at them from ONE position to see them level. 
No I didn't. Don't argue this until you produce the quote where I supposedly said it. Or...pay attention.

Yes you did.  It's right up there.

"That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level." - sceptimatic

You don't seem to understand that there is only ONE height you can look at the water in the two tubes so they line up.

ONE.

You can't just move the camera around to make the horizon appear at different heights if you are lining the camera up with the water levels.

The observer can NOT assume any position like you claim.  You keep saying you didn't say that, but you did, it's right there.
Read what I've said and absorb it for a while.
I'm sure you can understand what's been said instead of adding in your own version of what it means.

Well I quoted your own words.  If you didn't mean what you said, maybe you should have said something else.

Come back when you understand how two objects line up.
You quoted what I said and used it in a different context. Pay attention or come back when you're capable.

And why context was that?  Why don't you just simply state what your mean and the context instead of saying things and then claiming you didn't really mean it.

Tell us what you really meant when you said this.  "That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job."

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1255 on: November 12, 2020, 04:08:43 AM »
Quote
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.

I see.  So whenever we present evidence or proof of anything it has to be Sceptimatic compliant proof does it.. OK. In other words it is only proof if you accept it as such.  Well that eliminates a lot then straight away doesn't it.  Such as anything that proves that you are wrong for example or anything which suggests the Earth is not flat.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 04:21:23 AM by Solarwind »

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1256 on: November 12, 2020, 05:32:38 AM »
Let me try and make this more clear and easy to understand.
That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job.
What baffles me is, why would you do this when you clearly know what I'm talking about and you can actually see for yourself....and so can anyone else. It strikes me as odd as hell, unless your goal is to ensure people don't get to the truth....but why?

Do you really not understand how tubes work?

The tubes are connected, the water level in both tubes equalizes.

You can't just look at it from 'any angle' because the system is self-leveling.

Do you really think they were just pouring more water into one tube to fake the experiment?  That's hilarious, and sad.
Let's not go into that. You should know this is not what I'm arguing and if not....pay attention.

No, you pay attention.  You said you could "assume any position when looking at those lines" but you can only look at them from ONE position to see them level. 
No I didn't. Don't argue this until you produce the quote where I supposedly said it. Or...pay attention.

Yes you did.  It's right up there.

"That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level." - sceptimatic

You don't seem to understand that there is only ONE height you can look at the water in the two tubes so they line up.

ONE.

You can't just move the camera around to make the horizon appear at different heights if you are lining the camera up with the water levels.

The observer can NOT assume any position like you claim.  You keep saying you didn't say that, but you did, it's right there.
Read what I've said and absorb it for a while.
I'm sure you can understand what's been said instead of adding in your own version of what it means.

Well I quoted your own words.  If you didn't mean what you said, maybe you should have said something else.

Come back when you understand how two objects line up.
You quoted what I said and used it in a different context. Pay attention or come back when you're capable.

And why context was that?  Why don't you just simply state what your mean and the context instead of saying things and then claiming you didn't really mean it.

Tell us what you really meant when you said this.  "That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job."
You know fine well what I'm on about. Keep pretending not to if you feel the need.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1257 on: November 12, 2020, 05:33:54 AM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)



This is amazing.
At what point would you expect to not see the water and start seeing sky?
I mean the horizon line is literally where you cease to see water and see sky.

Have you ever seen an orange or a watermelon or a ball?
Do you expect to see the backside of the ball?
Have a think on your version of a horizon line. Is this what you think....in bold?

Yes
Wheres rab?
I need his copy paste.
RIP.

maybe you could answer what a "round earth horizon" should look like to educate the rest of us?
Do you mean your global Earth?

Yes
Quit stalling.
Actually answer some questions for once.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1258 on: November 12, 2020, 05:35:52 AM »
Quote
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.

I see.  So whenever we present evidence or proof of anything it has to be Sceptimatic compliant proof does it.. OK. In other words it is only proof if you accept it as such.  Well that eliminates a lot then straight away doesn't it.  Such as anything that proves that you are wrong for example or anything which suggests the Earth is not flat.
When you present proof you will have me snookered. Until you provide proof you will always be looking for evidence to get to it. You have provided absolutely no real proof, only so called evidence which is basically pseudo-science.

If you don;t want to admit to that then fine...but that's what's been provided.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1259 on: November 12, 2020, 05:38:59 AM »
Many of you globalists have argued against the laser line across a lake, saying it will not hit a level point on the otehr side and argue the Earth curves down.


You then destroy your own argument with the horizon, which I've explained, could not be an horizon in this scenario due to your argument for a curve downwards.

You would lose your water and see sky but you clearly do not lose water and always see water and sky (taking land out of the equation)



This is amazing.
At what point would you expect to not see the water and start seeing sky?
I mean the horizon line is literally where you cease to see water and see sky.

Have you ever seen an orange or a watermelon or a ball?
Do you expect to see the backside of the ball?
Have a think on your version of a horizon line. Is this what you think....in bold?

Yes
Wheres rab?
I need his copy paste.
RIP.

maybe you could answer what a "round earth horizon" should look like to educate the rest of us?
Do you mean your global Earth?

Yes
Quit stalling.
Actually answer some questions for once.
I answer all of them but I must make sure you mean global Earth when you mention, round.

I can't actually answer what a global Earth horizon would be like for two reasons.

1. The Earth is not a globe.

2. There would be no horizon on a sphere.