1

Technology, Science & Alt Science / Why mankind will always be stuck to Earth and visiting aliens are impossible...

« on: December 15, 2015, 08:46:55 AM »

I've outlined the basis for this thought here but my simple analogy deserves an own topic in this section of the forum.



- the butterfly is stuck on this cherry
- the cherry uses the gravitational force (G of unknown quantity) to attract the butterfly to its skin
- in order for the butterfly to escape from the cherry, she needs to overcome this attraction and create a "repulsion" from the surface
- hovering on the skin doesn't work as the air around the skin of the cherry (the "atmosphere") experiences the same G of the cherry
- jumping doesn't work as G still acts on the butterfly
- G is solely based on m; mass is defining gravitational pull (and thus "push")
- the butterfly needs to eat away at least half of the mass of the cherry in order to have enough G to be able to escape
- at the moment the butterfly has eaten the cherry enough, it then becomes susceptible to the gravitational force of the Earth, many times stronger than that of the cherry. In order to escape not only the cherry (Earth for us) but also the Earth (Sun to us), she needs to eat then more than half the Earth  in order to escape according to the same concept
- she then becomes a "planet", in orbit around the Sun, no escape from there...

Any alien civilization, no matter how intelligent and active for more than the microseconds mankind is living on this planet, will suffer from exactly the same problem making it both for us impossible to visit them and for them to visit us.

2

Flat Earth Q&A / The Flat Earth Society Mission Statement and History...

« on: December 14, 2015, 07:40:15 PM »

Mission Statement

The mission of the Flat Earth Society is to promote and initiate discussion of Flat Earth theory as well as archive Flat Earth literature.  Our forums act as a venue to encourage free thinking and debate.

History of the Flat Earth Society

The modern age of the Flat Earth Society dates back to the early 1800s, when it was founded by Samuel Birley Rowbotham, an English inventor. Samuel Rowbotham's Flat Earth views were based largely on literal interpretation of Bible passages. His system, called Zetetic Astronomy, held that the earth is a flat disk centered at the North Pole and bounded along its 'southern' edge by a wall of ice, with the sun, moon, planets, and stars only a few hundred miles above the surface of the earth. After Rowbotham's death in 1884, followers of his Zetetic Astronomy founded the Universal Zetetic Society.

Flat Earth theory spread to the United States, largely in the town of Zion, Illinois where Christian Catholic Apostolic Church founder John Alexander Dowie and later Wilbur Glenn Voliva promoted Flat Earth theory. Voliva died in 1942 and the church quickly disintegrated. Flat Earthism remained in Zion, gradually becoming less popular into the 1950s.

The International Flat Earth Society was formally founded in 1956 by Samuel Shenton, a Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and the Royal Geographic Society. Shenton died in 1971 and Charles K. Johnson became president of the International Flat Earth Society. Johnson actively and charistmatically promoted the Society and, over time, its membership increased to over 3,000. His wife Marjory took an active role in the Society as well, often contributing articles to the Flat Earth Society Newsletter.

In 1995, a fire destroyed the Johnson's home as well as all of the Flat Earth Society's library, archives and membership lists. Following a long period of poor health, Charles K. Johnson's wife Marjory Johnson passed away in 1996. He vowed to rebuild the society. Sadly, Charles K. Johnson passed away in 2001 at the age of 76, leaving the Society's future uncertain.

After several years of inactivity, the Flat Earth Society was resurrected in 2004 and remains active today at theflatearthsociety.org.  The Society officially reopened to new members on 30th October 2009.

I am new to the forum, so posting in Q&A and reading the Mission Statement and History of Flat Earth just now.

Let's have a look at it in detail:

Mission Statement

The mission of the Flat Earth Society is to promote and initiate discussion of Flat Earth theory as well as archive Flat Earth literature.

"Promote and initiate discussion"

I like that

But could it also read...?

"Promote [...] Flat Earth theory..."

 

"archive Flat Earth literature"

Again I like it. Archiving information and especially about the planet we live on should be encouraged at all times.

But what does "literature" mean? In the scientific sense, "literature" means publications. Scientific texts about things we are curious of and want to understand their nature, causes and effects.

Given that the peer review process of many journals is flawed and far from open, fair and balanced, have there been any attempts to propose any publications of scientific value to any Earth Science journal about non-mass, yet electromagnetics driven Flat Earth?

"...Flat Earth theory..."

It is called a "theory" in the Mission Statement. For Flat Earth to be a theory it has to adhere to two main characteristics, unless the wording does not refer to a scientific theory, yet some other kind of theory... an idea, at most:

1 - tested hypothesis - an hypothesis needs to be made and if the observations (measurements, data, open to everyone to gather around this beautiful blue-green planet of ours) confirm the hypothesis without a doubt, it can pass
2 - predictability - a tested hypothesis in the present is useless if it does not predict events in the future. In order to call Flat Earth a (scientific) theory one needs to be able to predict new events with the tested hypothesis

The present-day widely accepted Spherical Earth model (not: Round Earth, as Flat Earth is Round itself) is able to predict solar and lunar eclipses, the most obvious and frequent of the interactions of the "closest" celestial bodies; Earth, Sun and Moon. No need to rely on special relativity or 'imaginary images' of galaxies far far away to check this interaction.

As far as I know and I am always open to be convinced of contrary views, yet not easily, there have been no predictions published based on Flat Earth. Last September we experienced a glorious lunar eclipse and while sitting on the street looking at our fading and returning closest celestial neighbor I chuckled about the Flat Earthers. Not only how to explain the curved shadow on the Moon (what is it if it's not the edge of the Earth?), but rather how would they explain the whole thing anyway. And predict them...
 

Our forums act as a venue to encourage free thinking and debate.

That is praised from my side at all times again...

History of the Flat Earth Society

The modern age of the Flat Earth Society dates back to the early 1800s, when it was founded by Samuel Birley Rowbotham, an English inventor.

An English, sorry, but... inventor?? 

So the whole society is based on someone who invents things? Wow, that's obvious as a lighthouse with amazingly strong light seen from the Irish west coast but actually in New York!

Samuel Rowbotham's Flat Earth views were based largely on literal interpretation of Bible passages.

Oh, so that's an even stronger argument! Literal interpretation of Bible passages?! Then it must be true. Just as coming people out of ribs is true. The separation of the Red Sea is definitely true. And you can walk over it. Without ice ages, because the Earth is 6019 years old...

But I wonder. I met fellow member Luke today and he is a christian and says in his signature that the Bible states the Earth is round? Not spherical, ok, but round. So flat and round. So dish-shaped? He bases his views partly on the Bible and the foundation of this whole thing as well. Yet you do not agree? If the Bible is the only valid source of the shape of the Earth, how come you two disagree? The holy texts should be indisputably obvious, not?

His system, called Zetetic Astronomy, held that the earth is a flat disk centered at the North Pole and bounded along its 'southern' edge by a wall of ice, with the sun, moon, planets, and stars only a few hundred miles above the surface of the earth. After Rowbotham's death in 1884, followers of his Zetetic Astronomy founded the Universal Zetetic Society.

What? Even the stars "a few hundred miles"?

How can a Sun. which needs to be spherical, even in Flat Earth, otherwise it can never look like a circle from every place every day on Earth, a tiny ball of, what is it, 32 miles across?, light and heat a complete planet of 100,000 times its size? That is some damn efficient little unclear reactor at work there?! Some 10^15+ times stronger than the far away huge solar reactor in the Spherical Earth model?!

And yet that Sun looks equal in size from all locations on the planet all year round... That is outright impossible with a close tiny Sun.

Flat Earth theory spread to the United States, largely in the town of Zion, Illinois

You must be joking.   

where Christian Catholic Apostolic Church founder John Alexander Dowie and later Wilbur Glenn Voliva promoted Flat Earth theory.

And 4 Capitals, Very Important...

Voliva died in 1942 and the church quickly disintegrated. Flat Earthism remained in Zion, gradually becoming less popular into the 1950s.

Not surprising, just when commercial airlines were booming... People saw for themselves that a Flat Earth is impossible...

The International Flat Earth Society was formally founded in 1956 by Samuel Shenton, a Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and the Royal Geographic Society.

Eh, ok, Sammy Shenton, who are you...?

Samuel Shenton was a signwriter, [...] who by the 1920s claimed to have invented an airship that would rise into the atmosphere and remain stationary until the earth spun westwards at 1,000 km/h (620 mph) to the desired destination at the same latitude.

Well, did it work out, this "invention"?

Shenton died in 1971 and Charles K. Johnson became president of the International Flat Earth Society.

Charles K. Johnson
...the biblical truth (?) that the world was flat.
Originally an airplane mechanic in San Francisco...

Right.

Johnson actively and charistmatically [sic!] promoted the Society and, over time, its membership increased to over 3,000.

With some 5 billion people around who were not part of it a pretty minute number...

His wife Marjory took an active role in the Society as well, often contributing articles to the Flat Earth Society Newsletter.

Marjory held a Ph.D in Earth Sciences? Astronomer? Anyone of real scientific value?

In 1995, a fire destroyed the Johnson's home as well as all of the Flat Earth Society's library, archives and membership lists. Following a long period of poor health, Charles K. Johnson's wife Marjory Johnson passed away in 1996. He vowed to rebuild the society. Sadly, Charles K. Johnson passed away in 2001 at the age of 76, leaving the Society's future uncertain.

Tragic.

After several years of inactivity, the Flat Earth Society was resurrected in 2004 and remains active today at theflatearthsociety.org.  The Society officially reopened to new members on 30th October 2009.

Resurrected? Biblical.

And this is it? Some lines, nothing more? No presentation of the unfortunately obviously incorrect map of the Earth, easy-peasy to do if the Earth were Flat? No elaboration on the deliberate misrepresentation of curvature in the Spherical Earth?

Is this the Mission Statement and Undisputed-No-Escape-From-Flat-Electromagnetical-Earth-History that should convince people with more than 2 brain cells and enough observational abilities to believe the Earth is "Flat"? No self-respecting "alternative" platform would call itself a bunch of "believers". Calling a forum section that, is very telling.

As voluptuous Gaia, boiling with magma and scarred by plate tectonics, I feel quite offended, being called "flat"... 



Two inventors, and an airline mechanic. Hilarious.

3

Flat Earth Debate / The impossibilities of Flat Earth - intellectual debate

« on: December 14, 2015, 11:46:28 AM »

Hi all,

my first contribution to this forum based on a just recent interest in Flat Earth.

I want to outline some impossibilities of the Flat Earth idea here and would like to debate them:

1 - misrepresentation of spherical Earth as postulated by Flat Earth believers
2 - geometrical impossibilities of the Flat Earth map
3 - trigonometrical impossibilities of Flat Earth
4 - illumination & climate impossibilities of Flat Earth
5 - geological impossibilities of Flat Earth

1 - I've seen that one of the foundational arguments for Flat Earth seems to be the curvature in a spherical Earth model. It is stated that there would be a kind of squared relation that makes the curvature increase (a drop due to curvature in the first mile of 8 inches suddenly increases over the next mile to 16 inches?). That cannot be true for a spherical Earth; if the Earth is a near-sphere, every slice of it becomes a circle and circles have constant curvature by definition. So if the drop over the first mile is 8 inches, the drop over the next mile is still 8 inches and cannot increase nor decrease. Variable curvature is only possible in ellipses (the slice of an ellipsoid) and the Earth is not an ellipse, in none of the models.

2 - the Flat Earth map cannot represent the continents in the right way. Due to the distortion at the edge of the Flat Earth (or the southern hemisphere in spherical Earth) the size of Australia is extremely boosted. Also the size of North America becomes too small, Africa suddenly becomes bigger than Asia. This makes it an impossible map to hold.

3 - there are multiple problems with the trigonometry and the movement of the Sun in the Flat Earth idea. In Flat Earth the Sun is supposed to be tiny (some 32 miles across?) and very close by (only 5000 miles). It makes the Sun about 100,000 times smaller than the Earth and very close to the surface.
On 21st of June the Sun is roughly in zenith above Dubai (tropic of Cancer).
On 21st of December the Sun is roughly in zenith above Rio de Janeiro (tropic of Capricorn).

This makes that the Sun is only 5000 miles away on 21-Jun/21-Dec in Dubai/Rio. This means the Sun is supposedly much closer to Dubai on 21 Jun than in Rio on the same day. Yet, the apparent size of the Sun is the same. That is impossible if the Sun is so tiny as the slightest variation in size is noticed immediately. That the Sun looks equal in size from wherever you are on Earth points to a big Sun and far away and not to a tiny Sun (smaller than the island of Bali!) close by.

This effect is even enhanced when we look at Oslo/Ushuaia (~55 deg North/South). From those places the Sun on 21 Dec/21 Jun is 10,200 km away; more than twice as far as the Sun is from Dubai/Rio on the same day. Yet the Sun does not look twice as big from those places.

On top of that the supposition that the Earth is flat makes that the Sun has a much bigger circle ("orbit") on 21 Dec than on 21 Jun. The angular velocity of the Sun across the sky however is the same (1 Earth day). It would mean the Sun moves much (almost 70%) faster on 21 Dec than on 21 Jun to keep holding this idea.

Yet the same amounts of light and heart are produced per surface area, something which is impossible with variable circling velocities (to not use "orbital velocity").

4 - in a Flat Earth situation the center of the circle/North Polar region receives much more heat than the edge/southern hemisphere. Yet we do not observe any climatic biasing pattern based on that flat idea on Earth. The arctic region is much colder than the equatorial region while in a Flat Earth the latter receives much less heat (per time and per area).

The illumination of the arctic on 21st June is all-day, while the same effect happens on Earth on 21st Dec in the antarctic region. In a Flat Earth model it is impossible to illuminate Antarctica 24/7; so it does not coincide with the observations making it an impossible 'model' for the Earth.

5 - I am very curious to hear any explanation of plate tectonics on a Flat Earth. What happens; are continents "falling off the Flat Earth" or how are continents moving through geological time? In a Flat Earth idea, what is causing the Atlantic coastal shapes of Africa and South America to fit so perfectly?

The question is also where the magma producing volcanic areas is coming from in a Flat Earth and how come it is so restricted to the well-studied volcanic provinces and chains on Earth, with the most notable example the circum-Pacific Ring of Fire.

I am all ears to your reactions!

Cheers, Gaia Redonda