Do we really need yet another copyright extension?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2018, 09:28:28 PM »
@Bullwinkle Do you think Myley Cyrus is more innovative than Weird Al?

I have never heard Myley Cyrus.
She was that girl licking a sledgehammer everyone talked about for some reason a couple of years ago or so.


I didn't say I've never heard OF her.
I know who she is, I'm just not 13 years old.   ;)

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Twerp

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2018, 09:31:25 PM »
Here's the parody, way better than the original!

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boydster

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2018, 09:55:41 PM »
I am pretty sure Taylor Swift got into a copyright dispute with someone over Shake It Off, and the judge threw it out because the lyrics in her song and the original weren't considered worthy of copyright protection. I'm pretty sure it was over the chorus. Which was forgettable shitty.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2018, 05:23:50 AM »
I am pretty sure Taylor Swift got into a copyright dispute with someone over Shake It Off, and the judge threw it out because the lyrics in her song and the original weren't considered worthy of copyright protection. I'm pretty sure it was over the chorus. Which was forgettable shitty.

"Players gonna play, haters gonna hate"

Such original, much intellectual property, 100% worthy of protection.
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markjo

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2018, 06:32:35 AM »
Why should one man live off another man's labor? Do we really need 1000 takes on Sherlock Holmes?
Are you saying that there were no detective stories before Sherlock Holmes?  Believe it or not, the Ancient Greeks pretty much invented every major plot device out there and everything since then has been a rehash.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2018, 06:36:54 AM »
Why should one man live off another man's labor? Do we really need 1000 takes on Sherlock Holmes?
Are you saying that there were no detective stories before Sherlock Holmes?  Believe it or not, the Ancient Greeks pretty much invented every major plot device out there and everything since then has been a rehash.
I suggest Y'ALL PAY THE FUCK UP!
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markjo

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2018, 07:00:36 AM »
Should the McDonald's Golden Arches copyright expire?
The Golden Arches are protected under trademark law, not copyright law, which is similar but has a few key differences.  McDonald's rightfully should be able to own that trademark for as long as they actively use and defend that trademark.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2018, 10:27:55 AM »
Also, did people forget about good old capitalism? It doesn't just apply to physical objects, it also applies to more abstract stuff like art. If everyone created similar stuff you'd have a large supply of similar stuff with loads of competition within this supply of similar stuff. That's not very profitable. The more profitable option is to either create something different that is in low supply (but that hopefully have, or will gain, a high "demand") or to improve the quality of your specific samey stuff. Profit can mean either money, fame or influence or whatever your goal is as a creator. There is an art-economy and it runs on more than just money. Copyrights are basically patents, they ensure that you can profit off of your own idea so that you have a reason to create it in the first place. But once you've profited off of your work it turns from a security to a bonus. From this point out it actually disincentivizes you from creating a new work. As long as there is a demand you have monopoly on a part of the art-market. Since there is no competition within this part of the art market you don't have to work to improve or renew new iterations within the copyright.

Going into the public domain also pretty much ensures that the work will be put up on the internet and be accessible to anyone for free. There's no point in straight-up copying other's work, and there's going to be an abundance of fan-works with small changes available for free too. It's the ultimate supply, so there's no room for competition and no profit to be gained. People will still want some physical copies, and that'll be handled fine by publishers: It's just distributing the art to the people who might be interested in it. What is the point of creating some work of art if it can't be appreciated? Might even be translated or revised so that any language used in the work keeps up with society so that new meanings to words don't change the meaning of the story. The distributors do work to provide physical copies, so it's fair game that they profit.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2018, 10:38:35 AM »
Capitalism usually doesn't work very well for incentivizing creation of original art. Capitalism aside though, original art was still made looong before copyright laws.
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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2018, 10:51:50 AM »
Why should one man live off another man's labor? Do we really need 1000 takes on Sherlock Holmes?
Are you saying that there were no detective stories before Sherlock Holmes? 
No, I'm not saying that, and no I don't believe they invented every single plot device. Why? Because its not true, albeit it is a cute Western look at history.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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markjo

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2018, 10:56:06 AM »
Capitalism usually doesn't work very well for incentivizing creation of original art.
I disagree.  There are always customers out there who are looking for something new or different.  Not to mention the fact that there are always artists out there who think that they can do someone else's style better.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2018, 10:58:20 AM »
Capitalism usually doesn't work very well for incentivizing creation of original art. Capitalism aside though, original art was still made looong before copyright laws.
Capitalism sure does encourage just copying other (successful) works of art, until the art-market is saturated. Same thing with the physical market: People won't generally create new technology and products if they can just copy something popular that isn't saturated. But that's seen as good in the physical market, because it drives people to try to make improvements to the product. The best product will be the most popular and will become accessible to more people, which generates profit for the business and might improve quality of life for people. I think this can also apply to the art-market, a saturation of zombie movies will push creators to stand out in the competition and create the best zombie movie ever. It generates profit to the creator and it gives people a really enjoyable zombie-movie. Sure it might not be very original, but is originality really that much more important than quality? Is it better to have three completely different but mediocre works of art, or three similar works of art that are mediocre, good and phenomenal. We can drop the first two similar works of art as they are just inferior to the phenomenal work of art. Now we have the question: Is one phenomenal work of art better than 3 different but mediocre works of art? The answer is obviously: it depends on the context and the society they exist in. The phenomenal work of art might not really be very important while one or two or all of the original works of art handle really important subjects. Or the phenomenal work of art handles a very important subject while the other are unimportant. And we don't just consume art to learn important ideas or meanings, sometimes (most times) we just want to relax and have fun or be engrossed.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 10:59:58 AM by Master_Evar »
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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2018, 11:09:15 AM »
Well, eventually the market does become saturated, but usually that takes quite a while and it's a problem that is to an extent caused by capitalism anyways. Also I don't think it leads to higher quality art, it just leads to more pandering and better marketing. 
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markjo

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2018, 11:11:08 AM »
Why should one man live off another man's labor? Do we really need 1000 takes on Sherlock Holmes?
Are you saying that there were no detective stories before Sherlock Holmes? 
No, I'm not saying that...
Oh, then you agree that Sherlock Holmes is just another take on someone else's detective?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2018, 12:06:31 PM »
Well, eventually the market does become saturated, but usually that takes quite a while and it's a problem that is to an extent caused by capitalism anyways. Also I don't think it leads to higher quality art, it just leads to more pandering and better marketing.
Pandering to who? The customers? In what way?
And better marketing has always been a driving force in both physical products and art, copyrights don't really affect marketing. Having exclusive rights to something is not going to make it popular, or help it get popular. It'll help you get it popular before anyone else is allowed to make it popular, which is why I support it for the life time of the original creator and in case the original creator suddenly dies it can be passed to someone else for a while.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2018, 12:42:38 PM »
Well, eventually the market does become saturated, but usually that takes quite a while and it's a problem that is to an extent caused by capitalism anyways. Also I don't think it leads to higher quality art, it just leads to more pandering and better marketing.
Pandering to who? The customers? In what way?

What do you mean "in what way"? Look around.

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And better marketing has always been a driving force in both physical products and art, copyrights don't really affect marketing.

I thought our conversation was about whether or not capitalism incentivizes creation of original art, not copyright laws. I already said I support copyright laws, even for a while after the creator's death.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 02:30:34 AM »
What do you mean "in what way"? Look around.
I am looking around. That doesn't answer my question.

I thought our conversation was about whether or not capitalism incentivizes creation of original art, not copyright laws. I already said I support copyright laws, even for a while after the creator's death.
The discussion overall is whether or not copyrights need to last so long. I argued that art is subject to capitalism and that it would mean that creators would be incentivized to improve quality or push for originality without copyright laws. You then argued that it would rather lead to an increased effort in marketing, and I countered that argument by arguing that even with copyright laws there will necessarily be a large effort put into marketing. In fact, precisely because of it's originality it is very uncertain how well liked it will be by the populace and the populace in turn might not know if the art is worth their time and money. Because of the insecurities involved in original ideas marketing is more important than ever.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 09:59:47 AM »
The lyrics of Happy Birthday to You should have stayed copyrighted FOREVER!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 11:32:00 AM »
What do you mean "in what way"? Look around.
I am looking around. That doesn't answer my question.

You can't see how capitalism and profiteering has lead to creation of unoriginal art that panders to the lowest common denominator?

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The discussion overall is whether or not copyrights need to last so long. I argued that art is subject to capitalism and that it would mean that creators would be incentivized to improve quality or push for originality without copyright laws. You then argued that it would rather lead to an increased effort in marketing, and I countered that argument by arguing that even with copyright laws there will necessarily be a large effort put into marketing.

See where the issue is? What do copyright laws have to do with this? It doesn't contradict what I said.

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In fact, precisely because of it's originality it is very uncertain how well liked it will be by the populace and the populace in turn might not know if the art is worth their time and money. Because of the insecurities involved in original ideas marketing is more important than ever.
I don't know what that has to do with my post, I think there has been a misunderstanding.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »
panders to the lowest common denominator?
I can't see what you mean by pandering here. Please explain, as I've already asked. I know what the word means, just not how you're applying it. Who or what is the lowest common denominator, and in what way is it being pandered to?

See where the issue is? What do copyright laws have to do with this? It doesn't contradict what I said.
The topic of this whole thread is copyright laws. What doesn't copyright laws have to do with this? And what issue are you talking about? You're being awfully vague.
And no, it doesn't contradict what you said. Just like I never said it did ;).

I don't know what that has to do with my post, I think there has been a misunderstanding.
I said that because the creation of art is dictated by a capitalistic system, original art can and will be created without the need for copyright laws, just like it has been for the hundreds and thousands of years that art has existed before copyrights. You then said that capitalism creates a focus on marketing, to which I responded that that holds true even with copyrights, meaning that your point (on marketing) doesn't refute any point I made.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2018, 12:38:31 PM »
I can't see what you mean by pandering here. Please explain, as I've already asked. I know what the word means, just not how you're applying it. Who or what is the lowest common denominator, and in what way is it being pandered to?

Major companies mostly fund, support and promote art that is safe and uninspired, created with the purpose to cater to as broad a demographic as possible, and largely homogenized. This is most evident in Hollywood, and in Top 40 pop. 

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The topic of this whole thread is copyright laws. What doesn't copyright laws have to do with this? And what issue are you talking about? You're being awfully vague.

The thread is about copyright laws, but that's not what I was discussing with you in particular. I said I don't think capitalism really has a net positive effect in incentivizing and promoting original art. And I added that usually it's not the best art that comes out on top, but the art with the broadest appeal and best marketing behind it. Copyright laws are a different subject.


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I said that because the creation of art is dictated by a capitalistic system, original art can and will be created without the need for copyright laws, just like it has been for the hundreds and thousands of years that art has existed before copyrights. You then said that capitalism creates a focus on marketing, to which I responded that that holds true even with copyrights, meaning that your point (on marketing) doesn't refute any point I made.
That's not why I mentioned marketing. I didn't claim that you need copyright laws to have original art either. Actually I claimed the opposite. I just don't think capitalism is the main reason they're not needed.
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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2018, 02:00:51 PM »
Why should one man live off another man's labor? Do we really need 1000 takes on Sherlock Holmes?
Are you saying that there were no detective stories before Sherlock Holmes? 
No, I'm not saying that...
Oh, then you agree that Sherlock Holmes is just another take on someone else's detective?
Of course.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2018, 02:23:56 AM »
Major companies mostly fund, support and promote art that is safe and uninspired, created with the purpose to cater to as broad a demographic as possible, and largely homogenized. This is most evident in Hollywood, and in Top 40 pop.
Yes. So? They're making some art that can reach out to as many people as possible, influencing the greatest number of people and giving them what they want. They usually also try to have good effects, music and acting, which is an improvement to the quality. And again, this is not something that will be solved by extending copyrights. Because as you say it's the big companies, the one's with loads of funds and that already will have a popular story or franchise copyrighted, that can do this and profit. So I don't see how this ties into copyrights. And that is the only thing big companies CAN do. Their projects are too big to fail, originality and niches is a risk that could lead to bankruptcy. Quality costs money, big companies have money, small companies don't have that much money. If big companies didn't go for maximum quality, no one can go for maximum quality. Improved quality can often mean improved immersion which can lead to better emotional responses in the audience.

Also, is something being original and different enough to call it "good"? What you're saying is that because companies make art that the majority of people will like and because it focuses on what people think makes it good, that art is bad. That's basically saying that everything that all people can agree on is good, is in fact bad.

The thread is about copyright laws, but that's not what I was discussing with you in particular. I said I don't think capitalism really has a net positive effect in incentivizing and promoting original art. And I added that usually it's not the best art that comes out on top, but the art with the broadest appeal and best marketing behind it. Copyright laws are a different subject.
Well I was discussing copyright laws in particular, or rather how they function in capitalism.


That's not why I mentioned marketing. I didn't claim that you need copyright laws to have original art either. Actually I claimed the opposite. I just don't think capitalism is the main reason they're not needed.
Then why don't you explain what current influences on art prohibits the need for copyright laws? I didn't say that capitalism is the main reason for why copyrights don't need to be extended. I just said that capitalism is a reason for why copyright laws don't need to be extended. Capitalism WILL lead to new and original ideas, as well as an improvement in quality. Is it the BEST system for improving quality and promoting originality? Who fucking knows. That wasn't part of the point I was making. The point I was making is that because the art-market is influenced by capitalistic effects and forces, extended copyrights is not necessarily going to promote more originality (and if it does, is the original art going to be good?) and it won't promote more quality.
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Twerp

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2018, 07:09:37 AM »
Here's something I know, I'm not sure if it applies to the discussion or not. Some new author will come out with a great, well written book that is very popular. Then they'll do a second and maybe a third. What I've observed is that after that, they tend to start putting out inferior work and using their reputation to sell it instead of quality.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2018, 07:48:00 AM »
Here's something I know, I'm not sure if it applies to the discussion or not. Some new author will come out with a great, well written book that is very popular. Then they'll do a second and maybe a third. What I've observed is that after that, they tend to start putting out inferior work and using their reputation to sell it instead of quality.
That's true (not for all authors). Now imagine if people could write their own iterations to a story. They can use the characters, places, the whole world and write their own story in a franchise that starts at a point they decide. There's both positives and negatives to this. Should it be possible for a fan to copy a whole book but change the ending because they didn't like the ending and then sell it? That'd go from breaking copyright laws to plagiarism for most of the work, so either they'd have to give full credit to the other author for the copied part, or they could just not copy anything and instead only write an ending and then clarify in what part of the original book this alternate ending picks up.

Imagine if pretty much no one bought the original work because of the really shitty ending, but everyone bought the fan-version because of it's great ending. Does the original author deserve profit from the fan version, and how much of it, and for what reasons? Again, if the fan version straight up copies most of the book it's basically a lot of "stolen" effort that is choosing the right words, pacing, scene, chronology etc., so it would be reasonable to see the original author as at least a co-author to the fan-version. But what if the fan-version has the same story and events and so on, but chooses different words and pacing and so on?
Math is the language of the universe.

The inability to explain something is not proof of something else.

We don't speak for reality - we only observe it. An observation can have any cause, but it is still no more than just an observation.

When in doubt; sources!

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Pezevenk

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2018, 01:04:08 PM »
Yes. So? They're making some art that can reach out to as many people as possible, influencing the greatest number of people and giving them what they want. They usually also try to have good effects, music and acting, which is an improvement to the quality.

It's not a bad thing that there is art that appeals to a mass audience. What is a bad thing is that it becomes so generic and commercialized that it loses all originality, authenticity and power. By making safe stuff to appeal to everyone, you lose your ability to actually making something great. You can't appeal to everyone without pandering to the lowest common denominator, or restricting artists creatively. What's even worse is that the companies that have the money and influence to do that end up monopolizing the trade and making it really hard for independent artists to become known. As for "good music and acting", that's very debatable.

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And again, this is not something that will be solved by extending copyrights.

I explicitly said it wouldn't.

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So I don't see how this ties into copyrights.

It doesn't, that's what I've been trying to say...

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Quality costs money, big companies have money, small companies don't have that much money. If big companies didn't go for maximum quality, no one can go for maximum quality. Improved quality can often mean improved immersion which can lead to better emotional responses in the audience.

Why do you think better art necessarily costs more money? If it's an action movie then yes, but great art can be (and often is) made with very little money.

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Also, is something being original and different enough to call it "good"?

No, it's just two of the things that contribute to it being good. Otherwise art quickly gets boring.

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What you're saying is that because companies make art that the majority of people will like and because it focuses on what people think makes it good, that art is bad. That's basically saying that everything that all people can agree on is good, is in fact bad.

That is not what I said. Pandering to mass audiences and just appealing to them are two different things. Besides, what usually ends up happening is that instead of everyone finding it great, they just find it ok, because that's what happens when you try to appeal to everyone, instead of making something that can resonate to people on an individual level.

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Well I was discussing copyright laws in particular, or rather how they function in capitalism.

You said that without copyright laws, original art would still be made, because of capitalism. I agree that it would, but not because of capitalism. That's what I've been saying.

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Then why don't you explain what current influences on art prohibits the need for copyright laws?

I did in a previous post in detail.

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Capitalism WILL lead to new and original ideas, as well as an improvement in quality.

Art isn't like physical products. It's not like a smartphone that gets better specs. Capitalism doesn't necessarily lead to an improvement in quality. Actually, as I've been explaining, it often does the opposite. And new and original ideas aren't usually the product of capitalism. They usually spring up, and then they gain traction, and then a company picks up on it and they start reproducing it over and over again until the next trend. It's true that a company can't do the same thing forever and turn a profit, but that new thing usually doesn't come from these big companies first.
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Master_Evar

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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2018, 02:14:01 PM »
It's not a bad thing that there is art that appeals to a mass audience. What is a bad thing is that it becomes so generic and commercialized that it loses all originality, authenticity and power. By making safe stuff to appeal to everyone, you lose your ability to actually making something great. You can't appeal to everyone without pandering to the lowest common denominator, or restricting artists creatively. What's even worse is that the companies that have the money and influence to do that end up monopolizing the trade and making it really hard for independent artists to become known. As for "good music and acting", that's very debatable.
Originality does not cost money. EVERYONE has the resources necessary to be original. And I do think we can agree that on general, big shot company movies will have higher quality of visuals, music and acting compared to smaller budget productions. There's no thing as "the companies that have the money and influence to do that (be original and bold)", because everyone can be. The only thing money will get you is quality, and technology. If you want your movie to be experienced in an original or creative way (3D etc.) you might have to put up with some money. And because it costs loads of money (at least in the beginning to develop) these creative ways of experiencing movies are often tried on unoriginal but popular/safe stories.

I explicitly said it wouldn't.
I know. But you responded to my post, where that is the kind of point I made.

It doesn't, that's what I've been trying to say...
Then you shouldn't had responded to a post trying to discuss copyrights ;)


Why do you think better art necessarily costs more money? If it's an action movie then yes, but great art can be (and often is) made with very little money.
With quality I mean everything that is measurable. Fidelity, visuals, precision, acting, audio, effects. Quality isn't necessarily the overall goodness of the art, but the overall goodness of the work put into making the art. It doesn't necessarily make it a better piece of art, but it makes it easier to appreciate. What good is a piece of art if you can't appreciate it because of bad quality?

No, it's just two of the things that contribute to it being good. Otherwise art quickly gets boring.
Yes.


That is not what I said. Pandering to mass audiences and just appealing to them are two different things. Besides, what usually ends up happening is that instead of everyone finding it great, they just find it ok, because that's what happens when you try to appeal to everyone, instead of making something that can resonate to people on an individual level. [/quote
What do you count as pandering and what is appealing then? That's what I've been asking for a while now, even if I didn't spell it out clearly: What do you mean by pandering?

You said that without copyright laws, original art would still be made, because of capitalism. I agree that it would, but not because of capitalism. That's what I've been saying.
Well, I'm pretty sure that's just wrong. Capitalism will lead to originality. I don't know exactly how much, but you said it yourself: without originality the consumers will get bored. Demand will increase for originality, and the art industry will deliver at their own pace.

I did in a previous post in detail.
Please refer me to it.

Art isn't like physical products. It's not like a smartphone that gets better specs. Capitalism doesn't necessarily lead to an improvement in quality. Actually, as I've been explaining, it often does the opposite. And new and original ideas aren't usually the product of capitalism. They usually spring up, and then they gain traction, and then a company picks up on it and they start reproducing it over and over again until the next trend. It's true that a company can't do the same thing forever and turn a profit, but that new thing usually doesn't come from these big companies first.
Capitalism does lead to an improvement in quality (as I'm using the word; to basically make it easier to appreciate the art for what it is). It's observable in every art industry.

New original and interesting ideas springing up and gaining traction? That's just the art-equivalent of entrepreneurship. Why do they gain traction? Because people learn about the art and start demanding it.

Capitalism does not mean "muh big companies does everything". And independent single person making something themselves and distributing it to the public themselves is also part of capitalism.
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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2018, 12:17:35 PM »
Originality does not cost money. EVERYONE has the resources necessary to be original.

But... That's what I've been saying...

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And I do think we can agree that on general, big shot company movies will have higher quality of visuals, music and acting compared to smaller budget productions.

No they don't. Unless you're talking about visual effects, or if it's a really small budget production. Many small budget produtions have amazing visuals, great acting and sometimes music too. Also I don't know why you're only focused on movies.

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There's no thing as "the companies that have the money and influence to do that (be original and bold)"

I did not say that. You're not reading my posts very carefully. You added a parenthesis that had no reason to be there.

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The only thing money will get you is quality, and technology.

Why do you think money will get you quality?

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If you want your movie to be experienced in an original or creative way (3D etc.)

Just a side note, 3D is neither creative or original.

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you might have to put up with some money.

Yes, I already said that for certain genres of art that require a lot of money, like a big sci fi adventure or something.

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And because it costs loads of money (at least in the beginning to develop) these creative ways of experiencing movies are often tried on unoriginal but popular/safe stories.

These are not "creative ways", they've been around for long enough that it's gotten old already. It's not interesting if the "creative" and "original" aspect of all these movies is the same.

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I explicitly said it wouldn't.
I know. But you responded to my post, where that is the kind of point I made.

It doesn't, that's what I've been trying to say...
Then you shouldn't had responded to a post trying to discuss copyrights ;)

Again, you should read my posts more carefully, because I already explained to you exactly what my objection with your post was, and it's not about whether or not we need copyright laws.


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With quality I mean everything that is measurable. Fidelity, visuals, precision, acting, audio, effects.

How is "acting" or "visuals" something measurable? Of all these things, the only things that are ACTUALLY measurable is fidelity, and to an extent the audio and the effects.

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Quality isn't necessarily the overall goodness of the art, but the overall goodness of the work put into making the art.

That definition is new to me. What is the "goodness of the work put into making the art"? Is the directing and writing of a film not work put into making it? I think you're trying to say that you consider "quality" to be an art work being competent in its most technical aspects. Which isn't really what I consider the quality of art.

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It doesn't necessarily make it a better piece of art, but it makes it easier to appreciate. What good is a piece of art if you can't appreciate it because of bad quality?

That is only really applicable if the "quality" is distractingly bad. Although really great technical competence can be very impressive sometimes and greatly enhance the work, but that's not very common.


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What do you count as pandering and what is appealing then? That's what I've been asking for a while now, even if I didn't spell it out clearly: What do you mean by pandering?

pander:
1.To act as a go-between or liaison in sexual intrigues; function as a procurer.
2. To cater to the lower tastes and desires of others or exploit their weaknesses: "He refused to pander to nostalgia and escapism" (New York Times).

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Well, I'm pretty sure that's just wrong. Capitalism will lead to originality. I don't know exactly how much, but you said it yourself: without originality the consumers will get bored. Demand will increase for originality, and the art industry will deliver at their own pace.

That's not exactly how it happens usually. What happens is that the original thing happens first, and then the industry adjusts. Original ideas would come anyways.

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I did in a previous post in detail.
Please refer me to it.

Guess I didn't, but I thought I did, oops. I think I thought that post out but for some reason I didn't make it or I forgot to post it or something. My bad. Well, in short, there are always many artists who are just driven to innovate, regardless of the profit they can make, just because they want to. It's been so even before capitalism was a thing, and profit not having anything to do with it is evidenced by all the people who try to innovate or have tried to innovate, even though in many cases they know it probably leads to less profit, instead of more.

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Capitalism does lead to an improvement in quality (as I'm using the word; to basically make it easier to appreciate the art for what it is). It's observable in every art industry.

I can only agree to this if you are referring to stuff like CGI, and fidelity, and whatnot.

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New original and interesting ideas springing up and gaining traction? That's just the art-equivalent of entrepreneurship. Why do they gain traction? Because people learn about the art and start demanding it.

Yeah, they gain traction because people learn about it and start demanding it. What's the point? I don't see why it's the art equivalent of enterpreneurship either.

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Capitalism does not mean "muh big companies does everything". And independent single person making something themselves and distributing it to the public themselves is also part of capitalism.
Going by that logic you can attribute literally anything that happens in the world to capitalism, or any other system people are under, because the people are part of that system. What I'm saying is that a system that revolves around maximizing profit isn't a particularly good basis for creation of original art.
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Re: Do we really need yet another copyright extension?
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2018, 03:39:03 PM »
More evidence of a world gone mad!
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