Intercontinental ballistic missile

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rabinoz

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  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #150 on: January 01, 2019, 04:23:58 AM »
Newton's third law.
Do you understand that?
That for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction?
i.e. if you push something away from you, it pushes back.
By all means treat me like a child and explain stuff. Just make sure you keep it up while explaining to me as if I was a child.

Back to so called Newton's law.

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. I agree with that regardless of who said it.

I don't agree if you push something away from you it pushes back. It depends on what you are pushing against.
The correct word is, if you push on something it resists your push with the same resistant force to your applied energy against it.
And that something can be something that was "part" of the rocket - that is the burnt propellant ejected at very high velocity. Even a gas is something that has mass.

For example the SpaceX Falcon 9 first stage, depending on the model, burns about 335 tonnes of propellant in about 170 sec or close to an average of 2 tonnes/sec.
This burnt propellant is ejected at about 2700 m/s (6035 mph) at sea-level.
That generates about 510 tonnes of thrust at sea-level. Those figures are a bit high once out of most of the atmosphere.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #151 on: January 01, 2019, 04:37:57 AM »
No full thrust means you have a pointless rocket.

We are not talking about pedalling bicycles slowly or engine throttling on a plane.
We are talking about a solid fuel rocket launching at full thrust.
SLBMs are ejected fro the tube by compressed air and the engine is not ignited until it leaves the water.

Quote from: sceptimatic
We are also talking about launching from underwater at 100 or more feet in depth of a big 20 odd foot long and fairly large diameter missile, (as we are told) from a tube inside a sub that apparently manages to pop out of the water under the strength of compressed air that also has to engulf the entire missile in order to keep that missile tube membrane from being breached by the massive water pressure.
Who says it's 100 feet or more?
Quote from: Timothy Mauch, former Submarine sonar Chief Petty Officer at United States Navy (1976-1991)
Back when I was active duty on an Ohio (25 years ago) all of those depth were classified. It’s still classified, and will probably remain classified until maybe 20 years after the last SSBN is retired. As in other answers, we don’t even talk about it ourselves anywhere outside of a secure location (on the boat or in a classroom at TTF). The walls have ears. The worst part is that, even after 25 years, when the question is asked, the numbers pop right into my head. Not talking about things that are not open source (i.e. still classified) is the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. I think I’ll go back to sleep.

But even at 100 feet the pressure is only about 3 times atmospheric pressure (roughly 50 psi) so there is no "massive water pressure" and what is this "missile tube membrane"?
The standard pressure in a SCUBA tank is 3000 psi! So I fail to see any problems.

Quote from: sceptimatic
It's counteractive.
You simply do not want to understand so you won't whatever is carefully explained to you.


Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #152 on: January 01, 2019, 05:06:12 AM »
It’s up to you to verify what I presented because that’s the only evidence you will ever accept.
I can't verify it and if I could I wouldn't need to be debating it.
If you want me to shut up then make it extremely difficult for me to argue against what you're saying.
We both know there’s nothing that I could post that would “make it extremely difficult” for you to argue against.  You simply will not accept or believe anything you don’t see for yourself.  Don’t pretend otherwise.

Why can’t you get a rocket and thrust vector controller and then launch the thing to see that is starts slow and accelerates as it climbs; to see inertial guidance and thrust vector control in action?  The board even has an altimeter and Bluetooth so it’ll be easy to download all the data after the launch.

So, why can’t you verify it?

Mike
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #153 on: January 01, 2019, 05:32:52 AM »
Newton's third law.
Do you understand that?
That for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction?
i.e. if you push something away from you, it pushes back.
By all means treat me like a child and explain stuff. Just make sure you keep it up while explaining to me as if I was a child.

Back to so called Newton's law.

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. I agree with that regardless of who said it.

I don't agree if you push something away from you it pushes back. It depends on what you are pushing against.
The correct word is, if you push on something it resists your push with the same resistant force to your applied energy against it.
And that something can be something that was "part" of the rocket - that is the burnt propellant ejected at very high velocity. Even a gas is something that has mass.

For example the SpaceX Falcon 9 first stage, depending on the model, burns about 335 tonnes of propellant in about 170 sec or close to an average of 2 tonnes/sec.
This burnt propellant is ejected at about 2700 m/s (6035 mph) at sea-level.
That generates about 510 tonnes of thrust at sea-level. Those figures are a bit high once out of most of the atmosphere.
Sorry but I don't believe a word of it. I honestly do not believe any of those rockets exist. In the meantime let's sort of the ICBM's and what they're supposedly capable of which when scrutinised, appear to be another fiction.

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sceptimatic

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  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #154 on: January 01, 2019, 05:49:25 AM »
SLBMs are ejected fro the tube by compressed air and the engine is not ignited until it leaves the water.
Pay attention.

Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
We are also talking about launching from underwater at 100 or more feet in depth of a big 20 odd foot long and fairly large diameter missile, (as we are told) from a tube inside a sub that apparently manages to pop out of the water under the strength of compressed air that also has to engulf the entire missile in order to keep that missile tube membrane from being breached by the massive water pressure.
Who says it's 100 feet or more?
Ballistic missile submarine - Wikipedia.
I can only go on what's fed to mainstream. I'll look for more info if you think it's worth it?
If you want to say they only launch from a few feet under water then we'll deal with that, but it seems to be another major issue with a compressed air launch, wouldn't you think?

Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: Timothy Mauch, former Submarine sonar Chief Petty Officer at United States Navy (1976-1991)
Back when I was active duty on an Ohio (25 years ago) all of those depth were classified. It’s still classified, and will probably remain classified until maybe 20 years after the last SSBN is retired. As in other answers, we don’t even talk about it ourselves anywhere outside of a secure location (on the boat or in a classroom at TTF). The walls have ears. The worst part is that, even after 25 years, when the question is asked, the numbers pop right into my head. Not talking about things that are not open source (i.e. still classified) is the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. I think I’ll go back to sleep.
Ok so it's all classified and nobody knows until ...well...whenever.

This being the case renders anything you try to back up as, irrelevant inasmuch as what you think my thoughts are.


Quote from: rabinoz
But even at 100 feet the pressure is only about 3 times atmospheric pressure (roughly 50 psi) so there is no "massive water pressure" and what is this "missile tube membrane"?
The standard pressure in a SCUBA tank is 3000 psi! So I fail to see any problems.
Great, so all we need is a big strong cover and not a membrane.
How does that work?
Would it just pop off, opened by compressed air against massive water pressure?
Would it blow apart as the missile is ejected under compressed air pressure against the mass of water?
Have you ever tried to open a car door under 10 feet of water when there's air inside the car?
You see, sealing the tube to hold back the water from a missile, you could easily place a big heavy metal cover on it and lock it down.
That would be fine until you had to launch from depth.
You must open the steel hatch and there has to be a breakable membrane to allow the launch of a missile. Don't you agree this would be the case?

We have some problems here, don;t we?



Quote from: rabinoz
Quote from: sceptimatic
It's counteractive.
You simply do not want to understand so you won't whatever is carefully explained to you.
I wouldn't put this much effort in if I didn't want to understand.

What you really mean is, I don't and won't just accept what you people say.
But I will if you provide proof, or your adherence to mainstream so called facts are an adherence based on unproven hypothetical schooling.

I'm similar but my schooling is coming from myself and trying to get to potential reality.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #155 on: January 01, 2019, 07:43:59 AM »
Please define "verifiable evidence".
Something which I can't refute. Something that forces me to accept the potentials of it being more of a reality than anything else.

As an instance. If you show me a video of you eating 2 full sized cooked turkeys in 1 hour then I'm going to call bull on it.
If you show me the video and the stop watch is clearly showing it to be true then I would ask you to do it live as I was talking to you.
If After 1 hour you managed to do what you'd shown me in another video, I'd be convinced.

However, if you said you ate one average sized turkey in one hour with video evidence (not live) I'd be more inclined to accept it, even if you were duping me. Why?
Because I wouldn't feel the need to actually bother to question that, as I would be inclined to accept that it can be done.

This is basically how I work with anything.

If something seems too good to be true or simply borders on what I think is a dupe or fantasy...I call it out as that from my point of view.

If a horde of people tell me I'm wrong then all they have to do is prove I'm wrong by finding a way that actually shows it from their perspective of physical belief, not from their acceptance of something shown to them that cannot be verified by them.



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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #156 on: January 01, 2019, 11:06:48 AM »

We both know there’s nothing that I could post that would “make it extremely difficult” for you to argue against.  You simply will not accept or believe anything you don’t see for yourself.  Don’t pretend otherwise.
I'll accept anything that doesn't set off my alarm bells.
However, acceptance is not necessarily a belief in something. It's simply placing something way down in the pecking order in terms of bothering to look into.

Quote from: MicroBeta
Why can’t you get a rocket and thrust vector controller and then launch the thing to see that is starts slow and accelerates as it climbs; to see inertial guidance and thrust vector control in action?
I have no wish to buy a rocket.


Quote from: MicroBeta
  The board even has an altimeter and Bluetooth so it’ll be easy to download all the data after the launch.

So, why can’t you verify it?

Mike
Do you have one?

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JackBlack

  • 21826
Re: I DONT WANT TO UNDERSTAND ROCKETS!
« Reply #157 on: January 01, 2019, 01:19:27 PM »
Something which I can't refute.
Well you are yet to refute anything. So far all you have done is dismiss it.

As an instance. If you show me a video of you eating 2 full sized cooked turkeys in 1 hour then I'm going to call bull on it.
If you show me the video and the stop watch is clearly showing it to be true then I would ask you to do it live as I was talking to you.
If After 1 hour you managed to do what you'd shown me in another video, I'd be convinced.
i.e. all your requests for physical evidence have been extremely dishonest and you will just move the goalposts when it is provided to demand a live launch showing everything?

Vertically I do not believe they do continue to accelerate
Again, your belief has no bearing upon reality.
Provide the evidence that they don't continue to accelerate.


After the fuel is spent it is a dead stick before accelerating down
And even "dead sticks" will keep going up rather than stopping instantly.
Again, you not liking physics doesn't mean physics is wrong.

I'm not discussing model planes
I don't care. I am showing you the massive flaw in your reasoning.
According to you, a model rocket using up all its fuel quickly shows that real rockets will do as well and can't possibly last for the few minutes required.
That is the same form as claiming that a model plane or car or fuel quickly shows that real planes and cars do as well and can't possible last the the hours required.

It shows your argument to be garbage.
It shows you can't use a model rocket lasting a few minutes to refute a full scale rocket

It makes them fake. The thrust to mass ratio has to be sufficient to push that rocket up at the immediate constant velocity and sustain that until the thrust, wanes.
No it doesn't.
Again, you not understanding how they work just means you are ignorant. It doesn't make them fake.
They do not need to magically accelerate to a specific velocity and hold it.
No rocket works like that.

A bullet is a projectile when it leaves it's tube (casing) after being compressed out of it and out of the barrel of the gun.
And a bullet has massively different properties to an ICBM.
The most significant for this are the surface area to mass ratio and the fact that ICBMs launch with air around them at a much slower speed than a bullet.

To eject a 20 odd foot fully laden ballistic missile out of a tube from a sub under 100 feet (example) of water would require that missile to be ejected at some force to negate the water friction and also clear the actual water surface.
And what force?
You are yet to do any math to show this is a problem at all.
As such, I will continue to dismiss your appeals to your own ignorance as ignorance.

I'm not lying.
No, you are lying.
You are claiming things as fact.
You are not attaching "in my opinion" or "I believe" to every statement you make and instead are rejecting reality with nothing to back you up.


That depends on what effects you're wanting.
Yes, it depends upon what you want.
If you want to go high, you want a high thrust which will keep you moving up quickly, but not so fast that air resistance will become a limiting factor.
If they wanted full thrust until it runs out, they would be launched with a bomb, which would likely destroy them.

It is actually better to not go "full thrust" and no rocket does that.

No I don't.
Yes you do.
You pretend that the fuel needs to be consumed at the same rate and thus it all goes in a few seconds.
You don't understand how scale works or the fact that fuel can be spent at different rates.
This leads to foolishly thinking that planes and cars can't be real because their fuel only lasts 10s of minutes, not the hours required to make them practical.

A so called slow launching rocket from a launch pad would be like balancing a stick on your finger.
No it wouldn't.
Again, for the stick, you are supporting its weight, not moving it.

I don't agree if you push something away from you it pushes back. It depends on what you are pushing against.
Why should it depend upon what you are pushing against?

The correct word is, if you push on something it resists your push with the same resistant force to your applied energy against it.
And other than intentionally confusing wording and mixing up force and energy, that is the same.
If you push an object, it pushes you back by "resisting" that push.

Regardless you end up with the same result.
The rocket pushes away its spent fuel and in the process it is pushed by that fuel.
If it pushes the fuel away quickly, it will be pushed more.
If you push away the fuel at a higher rate, there will be more getting pushed and thus the rocket is pushed more.

Ballistic missile submarine - Wikipedia.
Where?
The closest I can find is this:
"modern vessels typically launch while submerged at keel depths of usually less than 50 metres"
However that is less than, not greater than.
It is also the keel depth, not the depth at the top of the launch tube.
Based upon the length of the missile alone that puts the top at less than 36 m for the Trident II and less than 34 for the R-39. And that is without anything around it.
So I would say that based upon tht 100 m is getting to the high end of the range they launch from and they likely launch from a much shallower depth.

We have some problems here, don;t we?
No. You have problems with understanding.
You haven't shown any actual issues.
They would have a metal cover for cruising, and an additional membrane which would be ruptured as the missile launched.
They can either have it rupture with the air being compressed from the missile, or they can have it rupture from the missile itself by having a small vent to let the air out.

I'll accept anything that doesn't set off my alarm bells.
So you aren't sceptical at all and instead will happily accept any garbage which fits with your delusional model.

I have no wish to buy a rocket.
Then stop with the dishonest demands for physical proof.
If you want physical proof all it takes is for you to go and buy a model kit (or a few) and build some and carefully observe them (with instruments or even a camera, preferably high speed). But an altimeter and/or accelerometer would be better. You can also experiment with putting in different amounts of fuel or trying to set it up with different burn speeds, but the latter would be difficult without different geometries.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #158 on: January 01, 2019, 01:26:24 PM »

We both know there’s nothing that I could post that would “make it extremely difficult” for you to argue against.  You simply will not accept or believe anything you don’t see for yourself.  Don’t pretend otherwise.
I'll accept anything that doesn't set off my alarm bells.
However, acceptance is not necessarily a belief in something. It's simply placing something way down in the pecking order in terms of bothering to look into.

Quote from: MicroBeta
Why can’t you get a rocket and thrust vector controller and then launch the thing to see that is starts slow and accelerates as it climbs; to see inertial guidance and thrust vector control in action?
I have no wish to buy a rocket.


Quote from: MicroBeta
  The board even has an altimeter and Bluetooth so it’ll be easy to download all the data after the launch.

So, why can’t you verify it?

Mike
Do you have one?
Currently, I do not.  It's been a few years but with some of the new technology I'm thinking about getting back into model rocketry.  After the electronics, the rockets are cheaper when scratch built.

However, I still don't understand why won't test this yourself.  Potentially the very first run could prove you correct about rockets.  That opens the door for credibility in your other theories.  On the other hand, it might prove that Newtonian physics is correct.  Either way the result will be definitive.

Sooner or later you are going to have to do real world testing of your claims...or have someone do it for you.  Either way, IMHO, in the end you need a couple of real world tests for proof of concept.
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #159 on: January 01, 2019, 02:05:06 PM »
Same reason he hasnt gone and bought/ made a vacuum chamber.
Theres a guy on youtube who does only vacuum experiments.
Would quickly show him "verifiable proof" his denP is bonkers.
Leave him be, He prefers "thought" experiements.
Side note, he never denied eating sht.


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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #160 on: January 01, 2019, 02:51:21 PM »

We both know there’s nothing that I could post that would “make it extremely difficult” for you to argue against.  You simply will not accept or believe anything you don’t see for yourself.  Don’t pretend otherwise.
I'll accept anything that doesn't set off my alarm bells.
However, acceptance is not necessarily a belief in something. It's simply placing something way down in the pecking order in terms of bothering to look into.

Quote from: MicroBeta
Why can’t you get a rocket and thrust vector controller and then launch the thing to see that is starts slow and accelerates as it climbs; to see inertial guidance and thrust vector control in action?
I have no wish to buy a rocket.


Quote from: MicroBeta
  The board even has an altimeter and Bluetooth so it’ll be easy to download all the data after the launch.

So, why can’t you verify it?

Mike
Do you have one?
Currently, I do not.  It's been a few years but with some of the new technology I'm thinking about getting back into model rocketry.  After the electronics, the rockets are cheaper when scratch built.

However, I still don't understand why won't test this yourself.  Potentially the very first run could prove you correct about rockets.  That opens the door for credibility in your other theories.  On the other hand, it might prove that Newtonian physics is correct.  Either way the result will be definitive.

Sooner or later you are going to have to do real world testing of your claims...or have someone do it for you.  Either way, IMHO, in the end you need a couple of real world tests for proof of concept.
Of course I need real world tests as physical proof.
The issue is in attaining them.
A model rocket won't show me real world tests, except for showing how a rocket attains constant velocity in extreme short order. No acceleration vertically.
A springboard effect where zero to constant velocity is achieved very quickly. That's as close as you get to acceleration.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #161 on: January 01, 2019, 02:54:05 PM »

Theres a guy on youtube who does only vacuum experiments.
Would quickly show him "verifiable proof" his denP is bonkers.

But he hasn't shown it to be anything. Neither have you because you're still trying to understand it at the basic level and you fail that.

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Gumwars

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  • A poke in your eye good sir...
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #162 on: January 01, 2019, 04:03:42 PM »
Yep. I have no authority to state as a fact that they don't exist. I simply believe they don't from my side. This is why I change my stance to ensure I'm not putting anything out as fact which I cannot back up as fact, because I don't have any proof other than speculation/scepticism/my own logic and distrust of a lot of what is dished out to us based on many many years of us being taken for a ride.

If that's the case, prefacing your statements with "This is my opinion" would greatly enhance your position.  Even saying that it is your belief is unoffensive.  Dense (in my opinion), but unoffensive.  You do realize that nothing you've stated can be proven, right?

They could well be fictional.
TV actors or simply story book characters.

Again, this is your opinion and very far from reality.  Depending on where you hang your hat, you could easily find a community college and take an astronomy class or even a group of enthusiasts that engage in hobby rocketry to start down a path of really verifying what you suspect, or learning something new.

Duped would be the likely word. It only takes a select few to be in on any conspiring, in my opinion.

Examples sir.  Otherwise this is reckless conjecture.

If it's possible it's plausible.

Categorically incorrect.  Logically, nearly anything is possible and if we speaking philosophically, even those impossible things are possible.  However, we aren't speaking philosophically, are we?  You've made the claim (and have not clearly expressed it as an opinion) that ICBMs as a object in the real world, are fictional.  So, we are specifically discussing what is both possible (meaning it can happen) and plausible (meaning that it is both possible and likely happening).  Therefore, what is plausible is inclusive of what is possible, but just because something is possible does not automatically make it plausible.

Can grade school kids build rockets and launch them?

Stop being pedantic. 

Why would any conspiracy need to involve a thousand people actively knowing and taking part?
How many people are complicit in writing the bible? How many people follow the bible and its meanings?
You don't need to answer this part I'm just giving you extreme examples of potential dupes.

Apples and oranges.  You're comparing a multi-thousand year old religion to technology researched and developed over the past century.  This is a bad example, and let me tell you why:

If a historic record existed that either refuted or verified every act in the bible, the world would be a very different place, a.k.a., very hard to be a conspiracy.  What you're contending is the idea that ICBM technology not being real is like denouncing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  Multiple nations, independently, developed systems like this.  The bible was forced on countless people over thousands of years while rocketry and atomic/nuclear development have been independent ventures often conducted by nations nearly at or in open war with each other. 

You mean you're allowed into a silo that holds a so called ICBM?

You're allowed into the ones that have been retired.  In fact, if you're interested, you can even buy one as a very durable shelter. https://www.missilebases.com/

As for being invited to Boeing's headquarters. What would we be shown?
What explanations would we get that we can't get from a text book or a picture book?
We would be placed in front of a man of woman who would be trained to reel off what they were taught to reel off and will have no physical clue in terms of being able to verify what they reel off.

I'm going to answer your question with a question.  Do you believe people with 4, 6, or 10 year plus degrees are duped?  Because that's what you're saying here.  I tell you to go get the information from the company that builds some of the damn things and your response is that "I still won't believe them." 

You learned this from reading books, right?
Nothing wrong with that but it does not give you facts. It gives you a story to follow that may be more fiction than fact.

I answered this further down.  No, I didn't learn all of that from books.  A lot of it was hands on.

Again you are basing this on story book reading passed off as factual, of which you absolutely cannot verify as that.

I'm not passing it off at all.  I'm repeating known, corroborated, and verifiable events that happened.  You can visit San Luis Obispo or Santa Barbara and watch the damn things go flying into the black sky yourself.  Are you saying that verifiable history isn't to be trusted?  Are you implying that we must all, and universally, abandon education, all history, all science, and then what?

Which gives rise to the questioning of them. I happen to believe they're gimmicks but very clever one's for the public to fear or comfort over, depending on how people view this intercontinental missile nonsense. Again, in my opinion.

As this is your opinion, your position here is, well, your position.  My knowledge of geopolitics and logic lead me to a different conclusion.  I don't believe China, Russia, or the US would be so keen as to lob a dummy nuclear weapon at one another to see if they could actually do it.  As rocketry is a product of purely mathematical endeavors (which I admittedly are not an expert of), a missile's flight path is a product of the amount of energy put into it along with its trajectory.  Enough propellant with the missile pointed in the right direction yields a parabolic arc with known flight times and location where it will fall back to Earth. 

Not sure what this means.

It means that with a known amount of energy, they were able to deliver the payload to a desired target.  Since they now know how much energy is needed to hit a target at 4700 miles, then it becomes a matter of projecting what the maximum distance would be given how much propellant the missile can hold.  Therefore, they didn't need to test to the maximum distance once that variable was settled.

They launch ICBM's from an air-force base?

Yes.

http://www.spacearchive.info/vafbsked.htm

Can you verify what rocket/missile was launched?

Yes.

http://www.spacearchive.info/vafbsked.htm


You dismantle a primary stage?
What exactly does that entail. Is it an engine and if so, ask yourself why any missile requires an engine.
We get shown engines like the Apollo nonsense and to be fair, they are gimmicks to me.

It's a huge cylinder of solid rocket fuel.  Dismantling is basically sliding it out of its section.


You witnessed this happen, right?

Yup.  I was the airman that primed the single block of C4 and taped it to the section.  It was the biggest shot I've ever worked on. 
 
We all know what these missiles are supposed to perform. How many of us have witnessed them perform what we are told?

That's the issue.

Thankfully, we've never had to see them in action.  You do realize what these things are for, don't you?  I NEVER want to see these things flying.

What did you do to actually work on this stuff?
Briefly.

As stated in my previous response to you, I was an EOD technician.  I served for 10 years with the USAF.  Our training required us to know how to disarm or neutralize conventional and improvised nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons.  We trained for roughly 45 days on the US nuclear arsenal.  The entire school took roughly a year.  My work entailed being able to identify weapon systems and then render them safe for disposal.
 
Like a big so called Apollo rocket effigy, right?
Just sat in silo's?

Yup.
 
It can grow just like it is. On facts.
The rest of it is stories and that entails books growing on fact or FICTION.

Nothing you've stated here is born in fact.  Nearly everything you've discussed, on this thread, is born from ignorance.  I don't mean that as an insult.  It is a conclusion I've arrived based on observation after our many discussions on this forum. 

Exactly, you can't.
It's down to a belief mechanism in each person. An acceptance just because it fits a narrative.

The often misquoted Occam's Razor very much applies here.  The simplest solution (or more specifically, the solution with the fewest assumptions) is likely the correct one.  Should a solution demand more assumptions, then you are compelled to provide support for those assumptions.  My world does not require endless assertions and assumptions about how and why it is a globe.  Nor do I recklessly cast out ideas like nuclear fission, rocketry, or space flight.  The reason behind that is driven by both my understanding of those systems and rejecting the patchwork of half fact, pseudo-science nonsense furthered by places like TFES.
 
That depends on the places visited.
If they're top secret then visiting them is left to someone narrating. A guide. A trained guide that follows protocol.

Because they're all shills in on the conspiracy, right?  Dude, I'm not talking about any top secret places.  You can set up a tour at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, visit the beach near Vandenberg, join an astronomy club, get into RC aircraft, or any other countless hobby that puts you steps closer towards the industries that are closer to this supposed conspiracy. 

The problem with your perspective, and the perspective of every "true believer" on this forum is that you are all, collectively, afraid of going out into the world and really seeing anything that challenges your worldview. 

For all your bluster, name calling, division, and ignorance, the lot of you are cowards.  Not one of you will ever leave the mental comfort of the intellectual prison you've built here. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 04:20:23 PM by Gumwars »
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

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JackBlack

  • 21826
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #163 on: January 01, 2019, 04:14:42 PM »
Of course I need real world tests as physical proof.
Then go by the rocket and do the test.

A model rocket won't show me real world tests, except for showing how a rocket attains constant velocity in extreme short order. No acceleration vertically.
And this just shows you haven't bothered doing the test.
Even model rockets accelerate upwards.

There is no magic springboard effect.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #164 on: January 01, 2019, 04:28:29 PM »
I have no wish to buy a rocket.
Because you know you'll be proven wrong and the whole house of cards you've dreamt up as your World View will start to tumble around your ears.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #165 on: January 01, 2019, 07:07:49 PM »

Of course I need real world tests as physical proof.
The issue is in attaining them.
A model rocket won't show me real world tests, except for showing how a rocket attains constant velocity in extreme short order. No acceleration vertically.
A springboard effect where zero to constant velocity is achieved very quickly. That's as close as you get to acceleration.
[/quote]

Still never denied eating sht...

What is this spring board effect you keep referring to?

Also, You fail to understand that going from zero velocity to "constant" velocity requires ACCELERATION.
The world is analog.
Not digital.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #166 on: January 01, 2019, 07:14:16 PM »
Of course I need real world tests as physical proof.
The issue is in attaining them.
A model rocket won't show me real world tests, except for showing how a rocket attains constant velocity in extreme short order. No acceleration vertically.
A springboard effect where zero to constant velocity is achieved very quickly. That's as close as you get to acceleration.
Bullshit.  This is one of you biggest cop outs yet. 

And, your claim that a model rocket will only show what your version of how rockets fly.  You’ve already decided that you don’t need to test a model rocket with the equipment I proposed because, as you claim, the rocket will show “how a rocket attains constant velocity in extreme short order”.

This is you presenting your opinion as FACT plain and simple and you saying otherwise is a flat out lie.  IMHO, you won't test because you know it will match all the videos that show the model taking off slow and accelerating throughout it's flight.   

Mike
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

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JackBlack

  • 21826
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #167 on: January 01, 2019, 07:15:33 PM »
What is this spring board effect you keep referring to?
He believes that all of a rockets acceleration happens right at launch, I assume similar to a diver's springboard.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #168 on: January 01, 2019, 07:24:32 PM »
He shouldve stuck with the gun analogy.
It wouldve made more sense...

And he wont try the that model rocket experiment or the vacuum chamber or any other experiement that risks him gettig his fedora dirty or requires him to go outside.
Keep eyes closed and fingers in ears and never have to accept reality.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #169 on: January 01, 2019, 09:34:39 PM »
He shouldve stuck with the gun analogy.
It wouldve made more sense...

And he wont try the that model rocket experiment or the vacuum chamber or any other experiement that risks him gettig his fedora dirty or requires him to go outside.
Keep eyes closed and fingers in ears and never have to accept reality.
Maybe he can understand this kiddies version:
Quote from: Science ABC
Why Do Rockets Follow A Curved Trajectory While Going Into Space?

Do you notice the rather intriguing thing about the path that the rocket follows? Instead of moving in a straight line, the rocket following a curved trajectory. This isn’t a mistake… you will see the exact same thing in every other picture and video of a rocket launch.Do you notice the rather intriguing thing about the path that the rocket follows? Instead of moving in a straight line, the rocket following a curved trajectory. This isn’t a mistake… you will see the exact same thing in every other picture and video of a rocket launch.
Even so, it doesn’t seem to make sense. Rockets are supposed to go into space, right? So wouldn’t it make more sense if they went straight up in a line, rather than following a parabolic path? They’d reach space much faster that way, it would seem. There must be a reason, because rocket scientists tend to be pretty smart, so, why do they not go straight up?

Short answer: Because they want to get into the orbit around the Earth using as little fuel as possible.

Science of a Rocket Launch: How do Rockets Work?

<< The rest is worth reading. >>

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #170 on: January 02, 2019, 06:25:13 AM »
Yep. I have no authority to state as a fact that they don't exist. I simply believe they don't from my side. This is why I change my stance to ensure I'm not putting anything out as fact which I cannot back up as fact, because I don't have any proof other than speculation/scepticism/my own logic and distrust of a lot of what is dished out to us based on many many years of us being taken for a ride.

If that's the case, prefacing your statements with "This is my opinion" would greatly enhance your position.  Even saying that it is your belief is unoffensive.  Dense (in my opinion), but unoffensive.  You do realize that nothing you've stated can be proven, right?
I think I've made it6 more than clear about it all being my opinion. I'm on a forum giving my opinions on what I deem as worthy of debate as to the reality of certain things in life, historically or presently that I believe may be based on a massive swerve from the overall truth truth.

You are counterarguing based on your belief that it is all, or virtually all of it, is a truth and are using what you believe is your knowledge to urge me to reconsider my stance. That's a debate and fair enough  but remember we are both on a forum and none of us know what each other is or does.

We can all reference anything and basically everything regarding any topic pushed forward if we wanted to argue from that mainstream ideal.
It also easy for any person to try to place themselves on a pedestal as some kind of physical proponent to a certain issue being argued against as if that alone kills a debate dead in the water.


Quote from: Gumwars
They could well be fictional.
TV actors or simply story book characters.
Again, this is your opinion and very far from reality.  Depending on where you hang your hat, you could easily find a community college and take an astronomy class or even a group of enthusiasts that engage in hobby rocketry to start down a path of really verifying what you suspect, or learning something new.
Of course. But what am I actually learning if I can't physically be a part of that apparent schooling of truth?
Here's an example:
A kid leaving school can go to university and study ancient history and get a degree.
What is the degree based on?
Physical evidence of the ancient past or is it based on text book schooling and pictures to memorise and relay back to the tutor via an exam sheet?

What about a degree in parapsychology?
How about a degree in Doctorate of Philosophy in Ufology?
How about a uni course on Philosophy?
There's courses on star trek.

The list is endless but all college/university standard degrees at the end.

It's easy to say " ahhh yeah but I mean proper stuff like nuclear and ICBM technology and stars, planets, moons and cosmos dust and black holes and stuff."
What are you actually studying that you can literally and physically verify any more than the silly stuff?

See what I mean?
I'm not talking about real courses that do give hands on experience and knowledge that can be literally verified to work.


Quote from: Gumwars
Duped would be the likely word. It only takes a select few to be in on any conspiring, in my opinion.
Examples sir.  Otherwise this is reckless conjecture.
Governments do it all the time but religious cults or religion in itself as an example.
Or if we are to believe recent history then the gulf of Tonkin incident.
There's likely so many examples out there but it's all about what people accept as being a potential for the truth.
We are all reliant on nothing other than trying to dissect pieces from any storyline fed to us, with nothing more in our own armoury than hypotheticals based on non- physical interaction of that story.

Quote from: Gumwars
If it's possible it's plausible.

Categorically incorrect.  Logically, nearly anything is possible and if we speaking philosophically, even those impossible things are possible.
The word "impossible" has to literally mean just that. Can not be done, no matter what.
In that context it does not make something possible.
Possible and plausible are doable, no matter what odds anyone puts on them. Just as probable is a supposed better odds system than possible.
A plausible salesman could be possibly duping you with selling you faulty goods. It's not impossible for that to be the case.
We could argue this till the end of our days and get nowhere with it.

Quote from: Gumwars
  However, we aren't speaking philosophically, are we?  You've made the claim (and have not clearly expressed it as an opinion) that ICBMs as a object in the real world, are fictional.
I personally believe they are fiction until I am shown to be wrong in my reasoning. If I can't be shown to be wrong then my own reasoning is still valid enough to me as to carry on that thought.
I don't believe in a god but I welcome proof to show me one exists. I generally and weakly class myself as agnostic to generally save argument on this topic but regardless there's a mass opinion of proof but no proof, except for theoretical proof from those that are schooled into the text book knowledge to memorise as that truth.



Quote from: Gumwars
  So, we are specifically discussing what is both possible (meaning it can happen) and plausible (meaning that it is both possible and likely happening).
All the same type of thing when boiled down to the nitty gritty.

Quote from: Gumwars
  Therefore, what is plausible is inclusive of what is possible, but just because something is possible does not automatically make it plausible.
It actually does.
It's possible that you could glide a playing card through an open letter box from 10 feet. In fact you can be very plausible in stating you can do it. It's not impossible.


Quote from: Gumwars
Why would any conspiracy need to involve a thousand people actively knowing and taking part?
How many people are complicit in writing the bible? How many people follow the bible and its meanings?
You don't need to answer this part I'm just giving you extreme examples of potential dupes.

Apples and oranges.  You're comparing a multi-thousand year old religion to technology researched and developed over the past century.
No. I'm comparing a religion with what could also be a sort of potential science dupe that would be like a religion.

Quote from: Gumwars
This is a bad example, and let me tell you why:

If a historic record existed that either refuted or verified every act in the bible, the world would be a very different place, a.k.a., very hard to be a conspiracy.
Verified and refuted are the  keys to everything in life that are true and false as a cert.
Dealing with both as regards the topics we are debating, is none of those things.


Quote from: Gumwars
Multiple nations, independently, developed systems like this.
Did they or were we simply told this was the case? How do you know?

Quote from: Gumwars
  The bible was forced on countless people over thousands of years while rocketry and atomic/nuclear development have been independent ventures often conducted by nations nearly at or in open war with each other.
Again, how do you know this?
All you can go on is what's fed to you by word of mouth and basic schooling in that matter.
You have every right to accept that as your fact but it doesn't necessarily make it so.

 
Quote from: Gumwars
You mean you're allowed into a silo that holds a so called ICBM?
You're allowed into the ones that have been retired.  In fact, if you're interested, you can even buy one as a very durable shelter. https://www.missilebases.com/
A retired so called ICBM soli does not show anything as a truth. You should accept this to be the case.


Quote from: Gumwars
As for being invited to Boeing's headquarters. What would we be shown?
What explanations would we get that we can't get from a text book or a picture book?
We would be placed in front of a man of woman who would be trained to reel off what they were taught to reel off and will have no physical clue in terms of being able to verify what they reel off.

I'm going to answer your question with a question.  Do you believe people with 4, 6, or 10 year plus degrees are duped?
It all depends on what their degrees are part of, as I said earlier.

 
Quote from: Gumwars
Again you are basing this on story book reading passed off as factual, of which you absolutely cannot verify as that.

I'm not passing it off at all.  I'm repeating known, corroborated, and verifiable events that happened.
You can visit San Luis Obispo or Santa Barbara and watch the damn things go flying into the black sky yourself.
I don't dispute ballistic missiles. A launch of a missile is not proof of what I'm arguing against.

Quote from: Gumwars
Are you saying that verifiable history isn't to be trusted?
Nope.
If it's verifiable then it can be trusted.
the issue is in us knowing it to be exactly that. And we simply don't.

Quote from: Gumwars
  Are you implying that we must all, and universally, abandon education, all history, all science, and then what?
Not at all. Most sciences and what not actually have an end product. I'm simply arguing the one's I don't believe have an end product in the physical manner.


 

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #171 on: January 02, 2019, 06:25:48 AM »
Quote from: Gumwars
Which gives rise to the questioning of them. I happen to believe they're gimmicks but very clever one's for the public to fear or comfort over, depending on how people view this intercontinental missile nonsense. Again, in my opinion.

As this is your opinion, your position here is, well, your position.
Of course, just like everyone's position is their own.


Quote from: Gumwars
  My knowledge of geopolitics and logic lead me to a different conclusion.
That's fine in what you say. It proves nothing to me other than words on a screen from you saying you have your proof as to something. What that is, I don't know.

Quote from: Gumwars
  I don't believe China, Russia, or the US would be so keen as to lob a dummy nuclear weapon at one another to see if they could actually do it.
Neither do I.
What they could do is scare their own people into thinking they have. On the flip side to that it's all about the pretence of the M.A.D and the deterrent it apparently creates.
It's a clever control of the people and their wallets/purses.


Quote from: Gumwars
  As rocketry is a product of purely mathematical endeavors (which I admittedly are not an expert of), a missile's flight path is a product of the amount of energy put into it along with its trajectory.  Enough propellant with the missile pointed in the right direction yields a parabolic arc with known flight times and location where it will fall back to Earth.
It means that with a known amount of energy, they were able to deliver the payload to a desired target.  Since they now know how much energy is needed to hit a target at 4700 miles, then it becomes a matter of projecting what the maximum distance would be given how much propellant the missile can hold.  Therefore, they didn't need to test to the maximum distance once that variable was settled.
Rockets work. Rockets can arc to a specific area based on calculations. fair comment. I have no qualms with that.
ICBM's going so high into an arc to land thousands of miles into another country is my issue.
Fuel to mass ration scupper this nonsense, In my opinion.

Quote from: Gumwars
 
We all know what these missiles are supposed to perform. How many of us have witnessed them perform what we are told?

That's the issue.

Thankfully, we've never had to see them in action.  You do realize what these things are for, don't you?  I NEVER want to see these things flying.

Of course we've never had to see them in action. A world of supposed terrorism and nobody has went rogue. Not one in all these years.
Yeah I know. "hard to get"...."well guarded"....Makes a difference with " nukes lost" that we get sold and told.
It's a clever dupe but I can't prove it to be so. I have to look at my own circumstantial evidence no matter how flimsy people think it is.
I happen to think the excuses for them being real are corny.


Quote from: Gumwars
Like a big so called Apollo rocket effigy, right?
Just sat in silo's?

Yup.
Well, what can I say. It just gives rise to more disbelief.

 
Quote from: Gumwars
It can grow just like it is. On facts.
The rest of it is stories and that entails books growing on fact or FICTION.

Nothing you've stated here is born in fact.  Nearly everything you've discussed, on this thread, is born from ignorance.  I don't mean that as an insult.  It is a conclusion I've arrived based on observation after our many discussions on this forum.
It depends who are the real ignorant people.
It's not so simple as to say ignorant and tie it to someone that speculates against someone (people in general) who read stories as cast them off as true when they may be fictional.
Which one is ignorant.



Quote from: Gumwars
Exactly, you can't.
It's down to a belief mechanism in each person. An acceptance just because it fits a narrative.

The often misquoted Occam's Razor very much applies here.  The simplest solution (or more specifically, the solution with the fewest assumptions) is likely the correct one.  Should a solution demand more assumptions, then you are compelled to provide support for those assumptions.  My world does not require endless assertions and assumptions about how and why it is a globe.  Nor do I recklessly cast out ideas like nuclear fission, rocketry, or space flight.  The reason behind that is driven by both my understanding of those systems and rejecting the patchwork of half fact, pseudo-science nonsense furthered by places like TFES.
Understanding this stuff is based on studying what's being fed.
I can tell you all about nuclear power just form reading how it's portrayed. I could read more and become a theoretical expert of that reading.
What am I an expert of?
Memorising text and pictures. A story.


 
Quote from: Gumwars
That depends on the places visited.
If they're top secret then visiting them is left to someone narrating. A guide. A trained guide that follows protocol.

Because they're all shills in on the conspiracy, right?
Not at all. As above. It's a schooling that can create a guide to convey that schooling to the masses as that person's expertise on the theoretical understanding of something they likely can not or likely ever will physically see in action.

Quote from: Gumwars
  Dude, I'm not talking about any top secret places.  You can set up a tour at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, visit the beach near Vandenberg, join an astronomy club, get into RC aircraft, or any other countless hobby that puts you steps closer towards the industries that are closer to this supposed conspiracy.
What will I be seeing in action?

 
Quote from: Gumwars
The problem with your perspective, and the perspective of every "true believer" on this forum is that you are all, collectively, afraid of going out into the world and really seeing anything that challenges your worldview.
Absolutely not afraid of seeing anything.
It all about what I believe I'll be shown.
If I want to visit a so called massive rocket just laying on its side or whatever then I'll do that.
It shows me a rocket laying on its side. It means nothing to me. And so on.
 
Quote from: Gumwars
For all your bluster, name calling, division, and ignorance, the lot of you are cowards.
Easy to say but hard to prove from where you're sitting.

Quote from: Gumwars
  Not one of you will ever leave the mental comfort of the intellectual prison you've built here.
Again, you can believe that if you want. You could be sat in your very own relaying your world view. However, I don't waste too much time on those thoughts as they're not productive.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #172 on: January 02, 2019, 06:32:52 AM »

And this just shows you haven't bothered doing the test.
Even model rockets accelerate upwards.

There is no magic springboard effect.
If the rocket had a throttle and enough thrust to launch and also add extra thrust due to a throttle then I'd agree it could accelerate.
The reality in my opinion is, a rocket uses full thrust to gain immediate constant vertical velocity and it will be held as long as the thrust remains constant. It will not accelerate in that state.

If the rocket was launched horizontally on wheels, at full thrust, then it would accelerate for a short while.
But we are talking about vertical rockets, missiles or ICBM's as we are told they are.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #173 on: January 02, 2019, 06:44:50 AM »
He shouldve stuck with the gun analogy.
It wouldve made more sense...

And he wont try the that model rocket experiment or the vacuum chamber or any other experiement that risks him gettig his fedora dirty or requires him to go outside.
Keep eyes closed and fingers in ears and never have to accept reality.
Merely saying it is not proving anything to me.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #174 on: January 02, 2019, 06:48:32 AM »


Also, You fail to understand that going from zero velocity to "constant" velocity requires ACCELERATION.
The world is analog.
Not digital.
You fail to read what I say.
I mention that once the rocket launches it hits constant velocity in short order, vertically.
In short order is not instant, so yes there would be a brief period from standing start to launch where acceleration has to occur.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #175 on: January 02, 2019, 06:49:35 AM »
He shouldve stuck with the gun analogy.
It wouldve made more sense...

And he wont try the that model rocket experiment or the vacuum chamber or any other experiement that risks him gettig his fedora dirty or requires him to go outside.
Keep eyes closed and fingers in ears and never have to accept reality.
Stop mixing yourself up, it knocks you back.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #176 on: January 02, 2019, 06:54:47 AM »
He shouldve stuck with the gun analogy.
It wouldve made more sense...

And he wont try the that model rocket experiment or the vacuum chamber or any other experiement that risks him gettig his fedora dirty or requires him to go outside.
Keep eyes closed and fingers in ears and never have to accept reality.
Maybe he can understand this kiddies version:
Quote from: Science ABC
Why Do Rockets Follow A Curved Trajectory While Going Into Space?

Do you notice the rather intriguing thing about the path that the rocket follows? Instead of moving in a straight line, the rocket following a curved trajectory. This isn’t a mistake… you will see the exact same thing in every other picture and video of a rocket launch.Do you notice the rather intriguing thing about the path that the rocket follows? Instead of moving in a straight line, the rocket following a curved trajectory. This isn’t a mistake… you will see the exact same thing in every other picture and video of a rocket launch.
Even so, it doesn’t seem to make sense. Rockets are supposed to go into space, right? So wouldn’t it make more sense if they went straight up in a line, rather than following a parabolic path? They’d reach space much faster that way, it would seem. There must be a reason, because rocket scientists tend to be pretty smart, so, why do they not go straight up?

Short answer: Because they want to get into the orbit around the Earth using as little fuel as possible.

Science of a Rocket Launch: How do Rockets Work?

<< The rest is worth reading. >>
That actually makes no sense in terms of so called space rockets. It would certainly make sense for a missile to take that curved path, otherwise the missile would be pointless unless its design was to obliterate the very place it launched from.

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Crutchwater

  • 2151
  • Stop Indoctrinating me!
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #177 on: January 02, 2019, 07:03:18 AM »
So, vehicles like the Saturn V and Space Shuttle, when launched, reached their maximum velocity immediately upon ignition?
Is that what you're saying?

Because literally hundreds of thousands of real people witnessed these launches live and in person over the years. They will all disagree.
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #178 on: January 02, 2019, 07:10:03 AM »
So, vehicles like the Saturn V and Space Shuttle, when launched, reached their maximum velocity immediately upon ignition?
Is that what you're saying?

Because literally hundreds of thousands of real people witnessed these launches live and in person over the years. They will all disagree.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying real rockets/missiles reach their maximum vertical velocity immediately after lift off.


Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #179 on: January 02, 2019, 07:32:10 AM »
So, vehicles like the Saturn V and Space Shuttle, when launched, reached their maximum velocity immediately upon ignition?
Is that what you're saying?

Because literally hundreds of thousands of real people witnessed these launches live and in person over the years. They will all disagree.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying real rockets/missiles reach their maximum vertical velocity immediately after lift off.
Immediately? 
What is immediately?
How soon after liftoff does immediately come into play?

Mike
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.