Intercontinental ballistic missile

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Crutchwater

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2018, 07:08:26 AM »
Facts are, nuclear weapons exist. They have been used in anger.

Long range rocketry is a real thing.
Precision guidance is a real thing. It has filtered down to the most basic consumer level in drone  technology.

Submarines exist, and have for a century.

There is loads of footage of sub launched ballistic missiles. Call it fake if you like, your opinion is noted.

Earth bound carbon arc sun is fantasy.
Helium dome is fantasy.

Things fall.

These are the facts.
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2018, 07:32:22 AM »
Here is a link to the same sort of system you can purchase for model rocketry.

https://bps.space/signal/

Here is a quote from the website...

Quote
Model rockets have fins and launch quickly; real space launch vehicles don't. With thrust vectoring, your rockets can slowly ascend and build speed, instead of leaving your sight in seconds. Signal R2, a thrust vectoring kit, is here to bridge that gap, enabling model rockets that look, and work like the real thing.
Model rockets launch quickly. Like I said earlier. No issue there and you can verify that one yourself.

Real space launch vehicles don't?
Real space rocket won't, because they don't exist.

Let's try ballistic missiles from silo's and/or submarines.

Does a ballistic missile just saunter out of a silo?
Do you seriously think that would be a good idea?
Do you seriously think it's feasible for a rocket to just saunter out of a silo or a sub tube, vertically?

Like I said before. If the rocket launches like a bat out of hell, like a springboard then you have a real rocket/missile.
If it crawls out in a slow motion looking way, then you have special effects, or to put it plainly, you have no genuine working rocket.

Pretty simple and easy to understand once you actually see what's what.

Quote from: MicroBeta

The way you see it is completely wrong.  As you can clearly see your whole spring board is completely wrong.  Your claim that it’s not possible for the slow liftoff with gradual acceleration is proven wrong.
Gradual acceleration vertically is pointless nonsense.
The whole point of a rocket/missile is to be stable after launch.
To be stable after launch it must full thrust and springboard into the atmosphere in order for that atmosphere to grip and steady it under immense speed.

A slow launch would render any missile as a mass of burning fuel on the launch pad or close to it after it destabilizes.
No silly gimbal is going to arrest something like that.
 
Quote from: MicroBeta

Every single claim you’ve ever made about how you “logically” concluded rockets work is PROVEN completely wrong by model rocket enthusiasts competing for highest flight, least drift from liftoff, etc.
Model rocket enthusiasts have proven nothing. What are they proving?
They're proving that rockets work by full thrust launch at immediate constant velocity, vertically for a short time before they arc.


Quote from: MicroBeta

Here’s another thing for you.  You can’t dismiss this.  Unless you’re willing to build and launch the rocket all your claims aren’t worth shit.
I've launched rockets and they all do the same thing. Immediate springboard thrust and immediate near constant velocity before full arcing.

Quote from: MicroBeta

  Your so-called logical approach to how rockets work is completely and utterly destroyed by model rocketry.  This is actually a situation of Case Closed.

Mike
Case wide open. You can close the case from your part if you want. I'll call this you decking out due to having no proof against what I'm saying.
Wow.  That’s a whole lot of handwaving strawmen.  You completely ignored the link and the videos that prove you wrong.

Everything I’ve posted is not only fact, it is verifiable.  These rockets do everything you say rockets can’t do and they exactly replicate how ICBM's work.

The videos at the bottom of that page prove you wrong.  The acceleration graphs contradicts every single claim you’ve made about rockets.

You can’t just dismiss verifiable evidence.

Mike
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2018, 08:02:39 AM »

There is nothing sketchy about the first video.  It's a missile coming out of the water and then it's engine igniting.  The video is clear, nothing sketchy about it.
The video looks nonsense and is sketchy.


Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
Your firing the gun under water analogy would apply if the missile was ignited under water.
Sorry but the missile is just a bullet so what I said does apply.


Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  It isn't.  It's a two stage launch.  The missile is ejected from its launch tube via compressed air.  The compressed air only needs to get the missile to pop above the surface and then the missile fires its engine.
Yeah and the pop above the water from the deep from a tube with compressed air is my issue for starters.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  The pressure of the water above it is taken into consideration when launching a missile.
Of course it is, in potential fantasy land.
I'm well aware there'll be answers to the questions. It just comes down to how feasible they are.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  They have specific depths that they must launch from to ensure the compressed air pushing the missile overcomes the pressure of the water above it, so the missile is above the water when it ignites.
Yeah. There's nothing I know that can do that. Not compressed air in a few feet of tube under a so called vertical missile, as well as all around it to push against a so called skin.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
The water entering the launch tube after the missile is launched is not going to damage the sub.  You don't know what you are talking about.
Yeah and I'm sure you do, eh?

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2018, 08:15:50 AM »
Surely time to end this 'discussion'?  Tell Scepti he is correct and that he needs to tell the wider world.  We could contact the local paper in his area, would be a good story.

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2018, 08:23:32 AM »

There is nothing sketchy about the first video.  It's a missile coming out of the water and then it's engine igniting.  The video is clear, nothing sketchy about it.
The video looks nonsense and is sketchy.


Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
Your firing the gun under water analogy would apply if the missile was ignited under water.
Sorry but the missile is just a bullet so what I said does apply.


Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  It isn't.  It's a two stage launch.  The missile is ejected from its launch tube via compressed air.  The compressed air only needs to get the missile to pop above the surface and then the missile fires its engine.
Yeah and the pop above the water from the deep from a tube with compressed air is my issue for starters.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  The pressure of the water above it is taken into consideration when launching a missile.
Of course it is, in potential fantasy land.
I'm well aware there'll be answers to the questions. It just comes down to how feasible they are.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  They have specific depths that they must launch from to ensure the compressed air pushing the missile overcomes the pressure of the water above it, so the missile is above the water when it ignites.
Yeah. There's nothing I know that can do that. Not compressed air in a few feet of tube under a so called vertical missile, as well as all around it to push against a so called skin.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
The water entering the launch tube after the missile is launched is not going to damage the sub.  You don't know what you are talking about.
Yeah and I'm sure you do, eh?

A missile is not a bullet.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

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Heavenly Breeze

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2018, 08:55:10 AM »
I'm amazed you. You are discussing with such enthusiasm what death brings. That I feel uneasy. This is the essence of the people living on the ball, they think that they can escape from this planet. Are you sure you can escape on Mars?
The earth believes, because magic exists!

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #126 on: December 31, 2018, 09:46:16 AM »
I'm amazed you. You are discussing with such enthusiasm what death brings. That I feel uneasy. This is the essence of the people living on the ball, they think that they can escape from this planet. Are you sure you can escape on Mars?
I apologize if this discussion upsets you.  I understand how you feel.

Keep in mind we are discussing the operation of the rockets and not the weapon.

Mike
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

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JCM

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2018, 10:06:56 AM »
I suppose the idea of SpaceX landing their rockets to reuse again is impossible as well? 



If landing those two rockets at the same time doesn’t give you goosebumps...

Watching a delta heavy launch and land its rockets is on my bucket list.  I hope sceptimatic if you were able you would watch this amazing feat as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 10:22:52 AM by JCM »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2018, 10:16:31 AM »
Facts are, nuclear weapons exist. They have been used in anger.
No facts but plenty of propaganda in my opinion.

Quote from: Here to laugh at you
Long range rocketry is a real thing.
Depends on  what you class as long range.
A score of miles is more long range than 1 mile.
Quote from: Here to laugh at you
Precision guidance is a real thing. It has filtered down to the most basic consumer level in drone  technology.
When drones become vertical rockets we can talk about drones.
As it stands they're not so a guidance system on a drone is irrelevant.

Quote from: Here to laugh at you
Submarines exist, and have for a century.
We are not arguing about subs as a vehicle, just what they supposedly eject , as in apparent ICBM's or as close to as we are told.

Quote from: Here to laugh at you
There is loads of footage of sub launched ballistic missiles. Call it fake if you like, your opinion is noted.

There's loads of footage of superman doing all kinds of amazing stuff. Is that fake?

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sceptimatic

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  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2018, 10:17:51 AM »
Here is a link to the same sort of system you can purchase for model rocketry.

https://bps.space/signal/

Here is a quote from the website...

Quote
Model rockets have fins and launch quickly; real space launch vehicles don't. With thrust vectoring, your rockets can slowly ascend and build speed, instead of leaving your sight in seconds. Signal R2, a thrust vectoring kit, is here to bridge that gap, enabling model rockets that look, and work like the real thing.
Model rockets launch quickly. Like I said earlier. No issue there and you can verify that one yourself.

Real space launch vehicles don't?
Real space rocket won't, because they don't exist.

Let's try ballistic missiles from silo's and/or submarines.

Does a ballistic missile just saunter out of a silo?
Do you seriously think that would be a good idea?
Do you seriously think it's feasible for a rocket to just saunter out of a silo or a sub tube, vertically?

Like I said before. If the rocket launches like a bat out of hell, like a springboard then you have a real rocket/missile.
If it crawls out in a slow motion looking way, then you have special effects, or to put it plainly, you have no genuine working rocket.

Pretty simple and easy to understand once you actually see what's what.

Quote from: MicroBeta

The way you see it is completely wrong.  As you can clearly see your whole spring board is completely wrong.  Your claim that it’s not possible for the slow liftoff with gradual acceleration is proven wrong.
Gradual acceleration vertically is pointless nonsense.
The whole point of a rocket/missile is to be stable after launch.
To be stable after launch it must full thrust and springboard into the atmosphere in order for that atmosphere to grip and steady it under immense speed.

A slow launch would render any missile as a mass of burning fuel on the launch pad or close to it after it destabilizes.
No silly gimbal is going to arrest something like that.
 
Quote from: MicroBeta

Every single claim you’ve ever made about how you “logically” concluded rockets work is PROVEN completely wrong by model rocket enthusiasts competing for highest flight, least drift from liftoff, etc.
Model rocket enthusiasts have proven nothing. What are they proving?
They're proving that rockets work by full thrust launch at immediate constant velocity, vertically for a short time before they arc.


Quote from: MicroBeta

Here’s another thing for you.  You can’t dismiss this.  Unless you’re willing to build and launch the rocket all your claims aren’t worth shit.
I've launched rockets and they all do the same thing. Immediate springboard thrust and immediate near constant velocity before full arcing.

Quote from: MicroBeta

  Your so-called logical approach to how rockets work is completely and utterly destroyed by model rocketry.  This is actually a situation of Case Closed.

Mike
Case wide open. You can close the case from your part if you want. I'll call this you decking out due to having no proof against what I'm saying.
Wow.  That’s a whole lot of handwaving strawmen.  You completely ignored the link and the videos that prove you wrong.

Everything I’ve posted is not only fact, it is verifiable.  These rockets do everything you say rockets can’t do and they exactly replicate how ICBM's work.

The videos at the bottom of that page prove you wrong.  The acceleration graphs contradicts every single claim you’ve made about rockets.

You can’t just dismiss verifiable evidence.

Mike
You haven't provided verifiable evidence. You provided what you believe is verifiable evidence.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2018, 10:27:12 AM »

There is nothing sketchy about the first video.  It's a missile coming out of the water and then it's engine igniting.  The video is clear, nothing sketchy about it.
The video looks nonsense and is sketchy.


Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
Your firing the gun under water analogy would apply if the missile was ignited under water.
Sorry but the missile is just a bullet so what I said does apply.


Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  It isn't.  It's a two stage launch.  The missile is ejected from its launch tube via compressed air.  The compressed air only needs to get the missile to pop above the surface and then the missile fires its engine.
Yeah and the pop above the water from the deep from a tube with compressed air is my issue for starters.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  The pressure of the water above it is taken into consideration when launching a missile.
Of course it is, in potential fantasy land.
I'm well aware there'll be answers to the questions. It just comes down to how feasible they are.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
  They have specific depths that they must launch from to ensure the compressed air pushing the missile overcomes the pressure of the water above it, so the missile is above the water when it ignites.
Yeah. There's nothing I know that can do that. Not compressed air in a few feet of tube under a so called vertical missile, as well as all around it to push against a so called skin.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical
The water entering the launch tube after the missile is launched is not going to damage the sub.  You don't know what you are talking about.
Yeah and I'm sure you do, eh?

A missile is not a bullet.
It is a large bullet when supposedly ejected from a tube in a sub by compressed air.
The only difference is in the means of ejection of the projectile.

So, as we know, a bullet fired in water will be immediately slowed so much so as to be rendered basically useless for travel in that water, after only feet.
So given that provable fact, we have to contend with being told how a 20 odd foot long missile full of solid fuel and a warhead can be propelled from a tube inside that sub by compressed air under it as well as compressed air all around it and above it to counteract the immense pressure on the skin covering that is supposedly keeping that compressed air from escaping and also keeping the water pressure from breaching the skin/membrane.

Not only that but we have to accept that this compressed air can also propel the 20 odd foot solid fuel and warhead laden missile up into the water and have enough force to clear the surface by a good few feet before the rocket apparently ignites and immediately thrusts into the air and manages to follow a set trajectory to a target thousands of miles away.

And people think I have no need to question this. I think I have every need to question what I definitely believe is a fantasy.

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Crutchwater

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2018, 10:31:24 AM »
A bullet has exhausted it's propellent before it leaves the barrel.

Rockets carry their own propellent.

BIG difference!
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2018, 10:32:59 AM »
I suppose the idea of SpaceX landing their rockets to reuse again is impossible as well? 

Of course they're impossible. They don't exist. They're gimmicks.

Quote from: JCM

If landing those two rockets at the same time doesn’t give you goosebumps...

It makes me cringe to think people fall for this nonsense.

Quote from: JCM


Watching a delta heavy launch and land its rockets is on my bucket list.
I'd like to give you some advice and tell you to cross it off and add something realistic but you'll live in hope of crossing it off yourself so good luck with that.
Hopefully you'll live to be 100 or more and have enough time to realise you were duped.
Quote from: JCM

  I hope sceptimatic if you were able you would watch this amazing feat as well.
If this stuff were real I'd be more than happy to watch it. I know in my mind they do not exist but each to their own.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2018, 10:36:28 AM »
A bullet has exhausted it's propellent before it leaves the barrel.

Rockets carry their own propellent.

BIG difference!
We are talking about a missile being ejected out of the water by compressed air from inside a submarine missile tube.
Just like a bullet that compressed air would be spent as the missile exited the tube.

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JCM

  • 245
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2018, 10:41:14 AM »
I suppose the idea of SpaceX landing their rockets to reuse again is impossible as well? 

Of course they're impossible. They don't exist. They're gimmicks.

Quote from: JCM

If landing those two rockets at the same time doesn’t give you goosebumps...

It makes me cringe to think people fall for this nonsense.

Quote from: JCM


Watching a delta heavy launch and land its rockets is on my bucket list.
I'd like to give you some advice and tell you to cross it off and add something realistic but you'll live in hope of crossing it off yourself so good luck with that.
Hopefully you'll live to be 100 or more and have enough time to realise you were duped.
Quote from: JCM

  I hope sceptimatic if you were able you would watch this amazing feat as well.
If this stuff were real I'd be more than happy to watch it. I know in my mind they do not exist but each to their own.

Here is an amateur rocketeer attempting to re land his rocket exactly like SpaceX ...



Literally thousands of people watched the SpaceX launch and landings...  here are some amateur videos of it...


What is fake?

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2018, 11:53:56 AM »
Please define "verifiable evidence".

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JackBlack

  • 21900
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2018, 12:11:42 PM »
If you don't keep a full thrust to keep a near vertical then your rocket will literally lose lift and go unstable and fall out of the sky.
Pure BS. If you wish to convince anyone of such garbage you will need to do vastly more than just baselessly assert it.
Again, they don't go purely vertical, and they have more than enough thrust to provide lift to balance their weight.

Stop just baselessly asserting garbage. If you want anyone to take you seriously you need to back up your claims.

This gimbal stuff is also ridiculous
And can you provide anything more than you dismissing it as ridiculous?

Again, you not liking something doesn't mean it is fake.

They're in the same band of duping.
The gullible public are being fed fantasy.
Sure, they are in the same band of "duping".
You don't like, them so you pretend they are ridiculous and reject them with absolutely no rational justification for your rejection.
You are the gullible one hear.

What I can do is watch rockets launch at "full thrust" and basically springboard into the air and hold that thrust until the fuel is spent. It then falls back to the ground, whether its a model rocket of a larger missile/rocket.
Then you haven't watched closely. Yes, they hold the thrust, but they continue to accelerate. After the fuel is spent, it continues going up, slowly accelerating, before reaching a vertical velocity of 0 and then falling back down.

Again, there are plenty of rocket videos you can watch (and even some opportunities to watch them live) where they don't do that.

Again, you not understanding scale doesn't mean reality is wrong.

The major issue with them all is their very rapid depletion of their fuel.
Again, just like with model planes and cars a major issue with them all is their very rapid depletion of their fuel.
That doesn't mean that bigger ones will have the same problem.

1. The springboard launch, meaning a rapid launch at full thrust.
2. The short time the full thrust lasts. Generally less than a minute with most, if not all.
Again, you not understanding reality doesn't mean reality is wrong.
If you wish to assert such BS you need to back it up.

1. A slow launch as if the rocket goes into slow motion as it leaves the launch pad. This alone should make people sit up and take notice of this nonsense.
That simply means their thrust to weight ratio is not massive. It doesn't make them fake.

2. The enormous underthrust of these so called rockets would literally blow them to smithereens
Why?
Stop just asserting BS.
Either back up your insanity or don't say it at all.

Those so called massive ICBM's in those silo's could not vent the stuff they would spew out.
Just what venting do you think it needs?

All I have is assumptions.
Then stop asserting your baseless, incorrect assumptions as facts.

The thing is (if you are honest about it) you are merely following
No, stop lying.
Not everyone is as ignorant as you.
Just because you don't like reality doesn't mean everyone is just following a narrative.


You've done nothing to dampen down my  mindset on this.
And no one ever will, because you don't give a damn about reality.
But that wont stop people calling you out on your BS.

Forget the sketchy first video. I deem them as nonsense because they look it.
Why not just be honest, you don't want any evidence.
You just want to pretend they are fake.

It's fine blowing a silly projectile from a tube in a tank but we need to look at what reality would be for a supposed ICBM from a sub deep underwater.
And before you would do that, you need to make sure you are doing it correctly.

First of all you need to go and look at a bullet fired from a high powered gun and see what happens to the bullet underwater.
Why?
An ICBM isn't a bullet.

See also how far bullets travel underwater before the crushing water friction grips/crushes them to a stop.
And then you need to know how that will change with scale.
Bullets are tiny. They have a very large surface area relative to their size, and they travel very quickly.
All that means that they will have a lot of friction slowing them down.

Ok so let's deal with supposed compressed air pushing a so called big ICBM, fully fuelled and warhead heavy out of a tube, vertically from deep to not only negate the crushing water but also keep going until it pushes clear of that water many feet above, to then ignite.
Okay, lets actually deal with it.
Show the math which is used to determine the pressure involved.
Until you do, any argument based upon the pressure is childish garbage.

need no refuelling for 25 years and what not.
It's amazing how little refuelling you need when you have a stable fuel that you aren't using.

I love reading about it all but I tend to treat it all as I see it.
Meanwhile, others will treat reality as reality, even if you don't want to.

What I'm saying is, your general mindset is to follow mass thought even though you understand that mass following of something does not make it a fact.
Or to put it more honestly:
To accept the mountains of evidence presented for something rather than rejecting it all due to paranoid delusions.
Some will even go a step further and actually understand the mechanics and thus realise it is 100% possible.

Meanwhile other people will be completely insane and reject it simply because they don't like it, without even thinking about it honestly and rationally.
They will then make completely insane claims, baselessly assert them as fact and pretend their delusions are justified.

A sceptic
You aren't a sceptic. You are happy to believe baseless garbage. So who cares?
Also, sceptics don't repeatedly demand proof. They ask for evidence.

The revered top scientist can become a nut job in short order for going against the grain.
If they do so without evidence.
If they do so with evidence they typically get a nobel prize.

No dig. I'm just saying you use a model rocket to cater for something you've never witnessed, as if the large rockets we are told about work from the basis of that model rocket.
Again, you not understanding how reality works doesn't mean everyone is as ignorant as you or that reality doesn't work.

I'm merely saying that a rocket burns its fuel in extreme short order by having to push vertical at full thrust to gain the required altitude.
And what we are saying is that is baseless garbage which no sane person would ever accept.
We have also shown just how flawed your pathetic analogy is.

It's not a fact that this applies to ICBM's and space rockets. I don't claim that as a fact.
Yes you do. You claim that real rockets burn their fuel in seconds and that if it doesn't, it is fake.
Stop lying.

Fuel to mass ratio is the real key.
No it is not. That is only one part.
The total mass is also important, as is the burn rate.
Again, if you understood the physics you would know that.
You can even do simple experiments to test it for yourself.
But you don't, because you don't care about the truth. All you care about is rejecting reality to pretend you are better than everyone else.

If one (little) expends it's fuel in short order with it's fuel to mass ration, then the larger one is equally going to expend it's fuel in short order
So big cars (i.e. ones people drive around in) will expend all their fuel in no more than 10 to 20 minutes. Large planes (i.e. jets people fly in) will expend their fuel in no more than 10 to 20 minutes, rendering them both at a limited range and nothing like the hours people often claim they are capable of,

Again, your argument is pure BS based upon wilful ignorance.
You need more than repeating the same baseless assertion.
Then explain it to me as if I'm that child.
That would require you to stop asserting so much baseless BS, or stop rejecting people saying that is wrong.
A key first step would be realising that the same amount (or same ratio) of fuel could burn at a different rate.
If you have 1 kg of fuel, that could be gone in 1 second, or 1 hour (as examples). Burning it at these different rates would have vastly different effects.

But you don't seem to care and instead repeatedly assert they burn through their fuel at the same time.

me being the sceptical and inquisitive and innovative person that I am.
You are neither sceptical nor inquisitive.
You have shown you do not give a damn about reality, being quite happy to reject things backed up by mountains of evidence while accepting baseless garbage backed up by nothing and/or refuted by plenty of evidence.
I just look at the simplicity of stuff and to me a gimballed rocket nozzle/engine would be silly.
Prove me wrong.
No. You thinking something is silly doesn't magically mean it can't be real. Even "silly" things can't be real.
Most people understand how gimbals work.
So if you want to challenge that you will need vastly more than "it's silly"

A heavy gimple above something would be a much better stability tool.
Prove it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:17:17 PM by JackBlack »

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JackBlack

  • 21900
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2018, 12:18:23 PM »
Move your finger and your stick is a unstable unless you can immediately sway your finger opposite the fall.
i.e. have the rocket tilt to the desired level and then go back to pushing it?

Your analogy fails because you are comparing balancing a stick on your finger, to pushing a stick.
If you hung your rocket on a big cable at the top and let your gimbal do the work then you can steady it because your top is going nowhere.
You just wont have a rocket anymore, as the top will be going no where other than possibly blowing up, and you need a way to get the fuel up to it. It also means that in order to work, the rocket engine will blow straight down over the rocket body, which wont be all that great if you have explosives inside. So that is a very stupid idea.
Regardless, this is just yet another baseless assertion of yours. Do you have any proof?

If they don't launch from deep then they're not really fit for the purpose of what we are told. Right?
No. Not right. You are yet to substantiate that.

I'd say that was deep enough to create massive pressure, wouldn't you?
That depends on your idea of "MASSIVE!!!!" But you are yet to show why pressure would be an issue.

Unfortunately all we can do is accept something as a truth without any evidence. Or accept it as a truth because we physically have the facts that physically show it to be the truth.
False dichotomy.
There is a range of options, not just those two.
You can be in a position of complete ignorance, and just accept without any evidence.
Or you can have some evidence, but not enough to prove it. For example, evidence of the laws of physics and how rockets work which show them to be possible.

The major problem with anything that is deemed to be at loggerheads with a mainstream ideal, will, in short order be termed "a conspiracy theory"
No, it isn't because it is at odds with a mainstream ideal. It is because it is baselessly asserted with absolutely no justification.
Plenty of things have been presented which go against the mainstream ideal which were backed up with evidence, which meant it got accepted.

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JackBlack

  • 21900
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2018, 12:19:53 PM »
Now, if you want, we can treat you like a child and you can try to learn.
But that requires you to stop making loads of baseless assertions and instead actually listen and/or discuss what is being said.
It also means one point at a time.

So if you want to try that, we can.
Lets start with the basics, the fundamental principle of how a rocket works:
Newton's third law.
Do you understand that?
That for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction?
i.e. if you push something away from you, it pushes back.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2018, 12:44:04 PM »
Here is a link to the same sort of system you can purchase for model rocketry.

https://bps.space/signal/

Here is a quote from the website...

Quote
Model rockets have fins and launch quickly; real space launch vehicles don't. With thrust vectoring, your rockets can slowly ascend and build speed, instead of leaving your sight in seconds. Signal R2, a thrust vectoring kit, is here to bridge that gap, enabling model rockets that look, and work like the real thing.
Model rockets launch quickly. Like I said earlier. No issue there and you can verify that one yourself.

Real space launch vehicles don't?
Real space rocket won't, because they don't exist.

Let's try ballistic missiles from silo's and/or submarines.

Does a ballistic missile just saunter out of a silo?
Do you seriously think that would be a good idea?
Do you seriously think it's feasible for a rocket to just saunter out of a silo or a sub tube, vertically?

Like I said before. If the rocket launches like a bat out of hell, like a springboard then you have a real rocket/missile.
If it crawls out in a slow motion looking way, then you have special effects, or to put it plainly, you have no genuine working rocket.

Pretty simple and easy to understand once you actually see what's what.

Quote from: MicroBeta

The way you see it is completely wrong.  As you can clearly see your whole spring board is completely wrong.  Your claim that it’s not possible for the slow liftoff with gradual acceleration is proven wrong.
Gradual acceleration vertically is pointless nonsense.
The whole point of a rocket/missile is to be stable after launch.
To be stable after launch it must full thrust and springboard into the atmosphere in order for that atmosphere to grip and steady it under immense speed.

A slow launch would render any missile as a mass of burning fuel on the launch pad or close to it after it destabilizes.
No silly gimbal is going to arrest something like that.
 
Quote from: MicroBeta

Every single claim you’ve ever made about how you “logically” concluded rockets work is PROVEN completely wrong by model rocket enthusiasts competing for highest flight, least drift from liftoff, etc.
Model rocket enthusiasts have proven nothing. What are they proving?
They're proving that rockets work by full thrust launch at immediate constant velocity, vertically for a short time before they arc.


Quote from: MicroBeta

Here’s another thing for you.  You can’t dismiss this.  Unless you’re willing to build and launch the rocket all your claims aren’t worth shit.
I've launched rockets and they all do the same thing. Immediate springboard thrust and immediate near constant velocity before full arcing.

Quote from: MicroBeta

  Your so-called logical approach to how rockets work is completely and utterly destroyed by model rocketry.  This is actually a situation of Case Closed.

Mike
Case wide open. You can close the case from your part if you want. I'll call this you decking out due to having no proof against what I'm saying.
Wow.  That’s a whole lot of handwaving strawmen.  You completely ignored the link and the videos that prove you wrong.

Everything I’ve posted is not only fact, it is verifiable.  These rockets do everything you say rockets can’t do and they exactly replicate how ICBM's work.

The videos at the bottom of that page prove you wrong.  The acceleration graphs contradicts every single claim you’ve made about rockets.

You can’t just dismiss verifiable evidence.

Mike
You haven't provided verifiable evidence. You provided what you believe is verifiable evidence.
Here’s what I’ve got; a website that lays out all the technology, explanations of how it works, and videos showing the guidance system in action.  Additionally, there are plenty of videos on Youtube demonstrating the rockets; all of which perform exactly like ICBMs and NASA launch vehicles.

Here’s what you have: unverifiable conjecture and opinion that you present as fact and call everything nonsense.

You claim to be logical so which or the above makes the most sense.

The fact is what I've posted is easily verifiable but you will never accept anything posted in this or any other thread as evidence.  You know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it.  I could get the equipment, video the construction, and video the launch but you’ll just say you have no way to know the video wasn’t faked...IOW, you’ll be calling me a liar...again.

It’s up to you to verify what I presented because that’s the only evidence you will ever accept.  You need to get the rocket, the kit from BPS, and do the launch yourself.  If you’re unable to do so, for whatever reason, then have someone you trust to do it for you.  Until you do, your opinions have zero credibility...or as you would say it doesn’t “wash with me”. 

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:47:30 PM by MicroBeta »
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #140 on: December 31, 2018, 02:34:48 PM »
No point talking phsyics with scepit.
Hes redefined many common words so that nothing makes sense.

Density of water vs air is x1,000.
Simply and basically saying anything flying through air then hitting water would be like hitting a wall.
The drag would slow it down quit dramatically.
Simply go swimming pool.
Basically jump off a high diving board.
Land on you belly.
You have to see things from our prospective.
Youre a moron.

Slow launch means the force of GRAVITY or the push of the atmosphere is lets say 10 x mass.
Simply means you take the amount of material something is, and multiply it by 10.
If the thing pushes on a man made scale, it would take at least 10 times that to negate it.
So basically you can think it like At full thrust, meaning the max rate of burn of SOLID fuel (thanks for that correection) is simply much more than a slow burn which is just a bit more.
for a basic and simple example of numbers, say the rocket is 15kg mass.
The weight then is simply 150newtons.
So basically if you had to get this off the ground you could use 11newtons.
Would go very high or fast, just enough to get off the ground.
Think of it basically like riding a bicycle from standstill.
You simply start peddaling.
Dont fall right, dont fall left, go straight.
Basically you could pedal really hard and fast using a high rate of energy (what common gullible folk call power).
Simply put this is equivalent to full thrust.
Basicaly try again and do the opposite and do a slow start.
Pedal not so hard.
Simply shows by true experiment that you can indeed simply go without having to go full thrust.

Heres a fake video of a stunt plane simply balancimg thrust vs fall.


Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #141 on: December 31, 2018, 02:45:14 PM »
No point talking phsyics with scepit.
Hes redefined many common words so that nothing makes sense.

Density of water vs air is x1,000.
Simply and basically saying anything flying through air then hitting water would be like hitting a wall.
The drag would slow it down quit dramatically.
Simply go swimming pool.
Basically jump off a high diving board.
Land on you belly.
You have to see things from our prospective.
Youre a moron.

Slow launch means the force of GRAVITY or the push of the atmosphere is lets say 10 x mass.
Simply means you take the amount of material something is, and multiply it by 10.
If the thing pushes on a man made scale, it would take at least 10 times that to negate it.
So basically you can think it like At full thrust, meaning the max rate of burn of SOLID fuel (thanks for that correection) is simply much more than a slow burn which is just a bit more.
for a basic and simple example of numbers, say the rocket is 15kg mass.
The weight then is simply 150newtons.
So basically if you had to get this off the ground you could use 11newtons.
Would go very high or fast, just enough to get off the ground.
Think of it basically like riding a bicycle from standstill.
You simply start peddaling.
Dont fall right, dont fall left, go straight.
Basically you could pedal really hard and fast using a high rate of energy (what common gullible folk call power).
Simply put this is equivalent to full thrust.
Basicaly try again and do the opposite and do a slow start.
Pedal not so hard.
Simply shows by true experiment that you can indeed simply go without having to go full thrust.

Heres a fake video of a stunt plane simply balancimg thrust vs fall.

What really irks septimatic is that the guidance system I showed him has a relatively slow launch as it continues to accelerate.  It's the exact opposite of his claims.  AAMOF, he says how model rockets with inertial guidance, thrust vector control systems operates is impossible.    I wish he would be open minded enough to verify it himself but I doubt he will.

Mike
Since it costs 1.82¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 3.64¢.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #142 on: January 01, 2019, 02:11:02 AM »
Here is an amateur rocketeer attempting to re land his rocket exactly like SpaceX ...


Not very successful. Imagine trying to do that with a large rocket. Splat, crash, boom.

Quote from: JCM
Literally thousands of people watched the SpaceX launch and landings...  here are some amateur videos of it...


What is fake?
If you think they're real then you go right ahead. I can't help you on that and I don't really want to try.
I'd like to think that one day you'll see it all for what it is + nonsense but I don't know you and your mindset and how enthalled you are with all this fakery/duping of the public.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #143 on: January 01, 2019, 02:21:53 AM »
Please define "verifiable evidence".
Something which I can't refute. Something that forces me to accept the potentials of it being more of a reality than anything else.

As an instance. If you show me a video of you eating 2 full sized cooked turkeys in 1 hour then I'm going to call bull on it.
If you show me the video and the stop watch is clearly showing it to be true then I would ask you to do it live as I was talking to you.
If After 1 hour you managed to do what you'd shown me in another video, I'd be convinced.

However, if you said you ate one average sized turkey in one hour with video evidence (not live) I'd be more inclined to accept it, even if you were duping me. Why?
Because I wouldn't feel the need to actually bother to question that, as I would be inclined to accept that it can be done.

This is basically how I work with anything.

If something seems too good to be true or simply borders on what I think is a dupe or fantasy...I call it out as that from my point of view.

If a horde of people tell me I'm wrong then all they have to do is prove I'm wrong by finding a way that actually shows it from their perspective of physical belief, not from their acceptance of something shown to them that cannot be verified by them.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #144 on: January 01, 2019, 03:14:19 AM »
What I can do is watch rockets launch at "full thrust" and basically springboard into the air and hold that thrust until the fuel is spent. It then falls back to the ground, whether its a model rocket of a larger missile/rocket.
Then you haven't watched closely. Yes, they hold the thrust, but they continue to accelerate.
Vertically I do not believe they do continue to accelerate, hence the springboard launch. From that point it's basically constant velocity in one respect but arcing would leave open argument against that in terms of how we're told.

Quote from: JackBlack

 After the fuel is spent, it continues going up, slowly accelerating, before reaching a vertical velocity of 0 and then falling back down.
Nope. After the fuel is spent it is a dead stick before accelerating down until it hits terminal velocity or the ground before it reaches terminal velocity. In which case it would be accelerating all the way to the ground.


Quote from: JackBlack

The major issue with them all is their very rapid depletion of their fuel.
Again, just like with model planes and cars a major issue with them all is their very rapid depletion of their fuel.
That doesn't mean that bigger ones will have the same problem.
I'm not discussing model planes, I'm discussing vertical rocket launch and flight.


Quote from: JackBlack

1. A slow launch as if the rocket goes into slow motion as it leaves the launch pad. This alone should make people sit up and take notice of this nonsense.
That simply means their thrust to weight ratio is not massive. It doesn't make them fake.
It makes them fake. The thrust to mass ratio has to be sufficient to push that rocket up at the immediate constant velocity and sustain that until the thrust, wanes.

Quote from: JackBlack

First of all you need to go and look at a bullet fired from a high powered gun and see what happens to the bullet underwater.
Why?
An ICBM isn't a bullet.
A bullet is a projectile when it leaves it's tube (casing) after being compressed out of it and out of the barrel of the gun.

The so called ICBM (ballistic missile/Projectile) is apparently in its tube under pressure or compressed air and compressed out of the tube into the water.

So, yes, we are dealing with a similar scenario.


Quote from: JackBlack

See also how far bullets travel underwater before the crushing water friction grips/crushes them to a stop.
And then you need to know how that will change with scale.
Bullets are tiny. They have a very large surface area relative to their size, and they travel very quickly.
All that means that they will have a lot of friction slowing them down.
To eject a 20 odd foot fully laden ballistic missile out of a tube from a sub under 100 feet (example) of water would require that missile to be ejected at some force to negate the water friction and also clear the actual water surface.
Chances of that is zero in my opinion.
Chances of it even surviving intact is the same. Again, in my opinion.



Quote from: JackBlack

It's not a fact that this applies to ICBM's and space rockets. I don't claim that as a fact.
Yes you do. You claim that real rockets burn their fuel in seconds and that if it doesn't, it is fake.
Stop lying.
I'm not lying. I'm giving my opinion on what I believe. If I'm wrong then someone needs to show me I'm wrong.
Merely citing text or pictures or sketchy video is not proving anything other than stories can be told and movies can be made.


Quote from: JackBlack

If one (little) expends it's fuel in short order with it's fuel to mass ration, then the larger one is equally going to expend it's fuel in short order
So big cars (i.e. ones people drive around in) will expend all their fuel in no more than 10 to 20 minutes. Large planes (i.e. jets people fly in) will expend their fuel in no more than 10 to 20 minutes, rendering them both at a limited range and nothing like the hours people often claim they are capable of,

Again, your argument is pure BS based upon wilful ignorance.
You need more than repeating the same baseless assertion.
Using cars and planes is not what we are arguing about.
Stick with the rockets or ICBM's as we are told.

Quote from: JackBlack

Then explain it to me as if I'm that child.
That would require you to stop asserting so much baseless BS, or stop rejecting people saying that is wrong.
A key first step would be realising that the same amount (or same ratio) of fuel could burn at a different rate.
If you have 1 kg of fuel, that could be gone in 1 second, or 1 hour (as examples). Burning it at these different rates would have vastly different effects.
That depends on what effects you're wanting.
In a vertical rocket under its own thrust, it's pretty simple. Launch at full thrust and keep that full thrust until ability to fully thrust is spent.

Whether that's with water and air or liquid fuel and compressed air or gas or solid fuel and oxidiser.
The same scenario plays out. Springboard launch at full thrust and height attained before fuel depletion in short order. Generally under a minute.

Quote from: JackBlack

But you don't seem to care and instead repeatedly assert they burn through their fuel at the same time.

No I don't. I assert they burn their fuel in short order. In seconds rather than minutes.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #145 on: January 01, 2019, 03:22:05 AM »
Move your finger and your stick is a unstable unless you can immediately sway your finger opposite the fall.
i.e. have the rocket tilt to the desired level and then go back to pushing it?
Your analogy fails because you are comparing balancing a stick on your finger, to pushing a stick.
A so called slow launching rocket from a launch pad would be like balancing a stick on your finger.
Having a gimbal underneath it to supposedly balance it by nozzle thrust would destabilise the rocket like me trying to push up an unbalanced stick . It going to flip very quickly.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #146 on: January 01, 2019, 03:27:37 AM »
Now, if you want, we can treat you like a child and you can try to learn.
But that requires you to stop making loads of baseless assertions and instead actually listen and/or discuss what is being said.
It also means one point at a time.

So if you want to try that, we can.
Lets start with the basics, the fundamental principle of how a rocket works:
Newton's third law.
Do you understand that?
That for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction?
i.e. if you push something away from you, it pushes back.
By all means treat me like a child and explain stuff. Just make sure you keep it up while explaining to me as if I was a child.

Back to so called Newton's law.

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. I agree with that regardless of who said it.

I don't agree if you push something away from you it pushes back. It depends on what you are pushing against.
The correct word is, if you push on something it resists your push with the same resistant force to your applied energy against it.



*

sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #147 on: January 01, 2019, 04:03:18 AM »
Here’s what I’ve got; a website that lays out all the technology, explanations of how it works, and videos showing the guidance system in action.  Additionally, there are plenty of videos on Youtube demonstrating the rockets; all of which perform exactly like ICBMs and NASA launch vehicles.
The starship enterprise performs how you imagine.

Here's a youtube video on it.



Here's a diagram on it.
I can get you many more for it if you feel you want to know more about how it works.



Quote from: MicroBeta
Here’s what you have: unverifiable conjecture and opinion that you present as fact and call everything nonsense.
I don't present anything I say as fact unless I know or believe it to be fact. I present it as a musing, theory. hypothesis or an opinion as to how I see whatever I'm questioning.
I call things nonsense because from my mindset they are nonsense.
You don't have to take it personal. When I personally call you a nonsense then bother yourself over it.



Quote from: MicroBeta
You claim to be logical so which or the above makes the most sense.
I'd say we need to figure out which does, because we are both giving opinions on what's real and what's not. You believe you are backed up by video and diagrams and stuff.
The reality is you are referencing stuff that you have no proof of, in my opinion.
I can't prove anything to you so it's down to logical thoughts or what's perceived as logical, or illogical.

Quote from: MicroBeta
The fact is what I've posted is easily verifiable but you will never accept anything posted in this or any other thread as evidence.
You know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it.
If it's easily verifiable then verify it and shut me up.

Quote from: MicroBeta
I could get the equipment, video the construction, and video the launch but you’ll just say you have no way to know the video wasn’t faked...IOW, you’ll be calling me a liar...again.
I have no issues with model rockets.

Quote from: MicroBeta
It’s up to you to verify what I presented because that’s the only evidence you will ever accept.
I can't verify it and if I could I wouldn't need to be debating it.
If you want me to shut up then make it extremely difficult for me to argue against what you're saying.

Quote from: MicroBeta
  You need to get the rocket, the kit from BPS, and do the launch yourself.  If you’re unable to do so, for whatever reason, then have someone you trust to do it for you.  Until you do, your opinions have zero credibility...or as you would say it doesn’t “wash with me”. 

Mike
Like I said. I don't have any issue with model rockets.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 04:04:50 AM by sceptimatic »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #148 on: January 01, 2019, 04:16:42 AM »
No point talking phsyics with scepit.
Hes redefined many common words so that nothing makes sense.

Density of water vs air is x1,000.
Simply and basically saying anything flying through air then hitting water would be like hitting a wall.
The drag would slow it down quit dramatically.
Simply go swimming pool.
Basically jump off a high diving board.
Land on you belly.
You have to see things from our prospective.
Youre a moron.

Slow launch means the force of GRAVITY or the push of the atmosphere is lets say 10 x mass.
Simply means you take the amount of material something is, and multiply it by 10.
If the thing pushes on a man made scale, it would take at least 10 times that to negate it.
So basically you can think it like At full thrust, meaning the max rate of burn of SOLID fuel (thanks for that correection) is simply much more than a slow burn which is just a bit more.
for a basic and simple example of numbers, say the rocket is 15kg mass.
The weight then is simply 150newtons.
So basically if you had to get this off the ground you could use 11newtons.
Would go very high or fast, just enough to get off the ground.
Think of it basically like riding a bicycle from standstill.
You simply start peddaling.
Dont fall right, dont fall left, go straight.
Basically you could pedal really hard and fast using a high rate of energy (what common gullible folk call power).
Simply put this is equivalent to full thrust.
Basicaly try again and do the opposite and do a slow start.
Pedal not so hard.
Simply shows by true experiment that you can indeed simply go without having to go full thrust.

Heres a fake video of a stunt plane simply balancimg thrust vs fall.

No full thrust means you have a pointless rocket.

We are not talking about pedalling bicycles slowly or engine throttling on a plane.
We are talking about a solid fuel rocket launching at full thrust.


We are also talking about launching from underwater at 100 or more feet in depth of a big 20 odd foot long and fairly large diameter missile, (as we are told) from a tube inside a sub that apparently manages to pop out of the water under the strength of compressed air that also has to engulf the entire missile in order to keep that missile tube membrane from being breached by the massive water pressure.


It's counteractive.

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sceptimatic

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  • 30061
Re: Intercontinental ballistic missile
« Reply #149 on: January 01, 2019, 04:19:06 AM »
What really irks septimatic is that the guidance system I showed him has a relatively slow launch as it continues to accelerate.  It's the exact opposite of his claims.  AAMOF, he says how model rockets with inertial guidance, thrust vector control systems operates is impossible.    I wish he would be open minded enough to verify it himself but I doubt he will.

Mike
The guidance system is only one issue on a so called ICBM.