What if you're wrong?

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karl

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2011, 04:57:15 PM »
I was referring to a passenger jet, from which I have seen the curve of the earth, as have millions of others, it is not I, but you who are in the minority, so stop trying to pick on a pedantic point to deflect from your inability to answer simple questions that challenge your theory.

let's give it a fourth try, will we? "how to you explain the FE position that the other planets are globes? what special power acted so differently upon them than our earth"

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2011, 04:59:26 PM »
As Wilmore said, you saw what you wanted to see.  It's amazing how strong the power of suggestion can be.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2011, 05:01:34 PM »
I was referring to a passenger jet, from which I have seen the curve of the earth, as have millions of others, it is not I, but you who are in the minority, so stop trying to pick on a pedantic point to deflect from your inability to answer simple questions that challenge your theory.


You claimed that one could see the curvature of the Earth "out the window of an aircraft that's a mile or so up in the air". I asked you specifically if you had seen the curvature of the Earth "out the window of an aircraft that's a mile or so up in the air", to which you assented. It is not pedantry on my part to point out that this claim (which you made twice) is demonstrably false. Rather, it was error on your part to make the claim twice.


Furthermore, I would like to see you substantiate the claim that "millions of others" have seen the curvature of the Earth from that height. A quick google on the subject yields results which indicate the opposite. Please back up your statements.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Disarray

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2011, 06:19:35 PM »
Quote from: http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf
5. Summary and Conclusions
In view of the agreement between the visual observations,
measurements of the photographs, and the
theoretical curvatures, it seems well established that
the curvature of the Earth is reasonably well understood
and can be measured from photographs. The
threshold elevation for detecting curvature would
seem to be somewhat less than 35; 000 ft but not
as low as 14; 000 ft. Photographically, curvature may
be measurable as low as 20; 000 ft.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2011, 06:22:20 PM »
More evidence that curvature cannot be detected by the naked eye at these heights.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Disarray

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2011, 06:25:42 PM »
If you are referring to 5000 feet, obviously yes, but my last plane flight was at about 37000 feet, above the threshold. Didn't get a window seat though, and it was stormy that day.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2011, 06:36:51 PM »
If you are referring to 5000 feet, obviously yes, but my last plane flight was at about 37000 feet, above the threshold. Didn't get a window seat though, and it was stormy that day.


Above the threshold for what? Note the wording:


Quote from: http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf
5. Summary and Conclusions
In view of the agreement between the visual observations,
measurements of the photographs, and the
theoretical curvatures, it seems well established that
the curvature of the Earth is reasonably well understood
and can be measured from photographs. The
threshold elevation for detecting curvature would
seem to be somewhat less than 35; 000 ft but not
as low as 14; 000 ft. Photographically, curvature may
be measurable as low as 20; 000 ft.


And personally, I have great doubts about the way he goes about setting the visual upper limit. He claims that the curvature was "unmistakable" on a clear day with the right FOV, yet at the beginning of the article it says:


Quote
Interviews with pilots and high-elevation travelers
revealed that few if any could detect curvature below
about 50; 000 ft.
High-altitude physicist and experienced
sky observer David Gutierrez [6] reported that
as his B-57 ascends, the curvature of the horizon does
not become readily sensible until about 50; 000 ft
and
that at 60; 000 ft the curvature is obvious. Having
talked to many other high fliers (SR-71, U2, etc.),
Gutierrez confirms that his sense of the curvature
is the same as theirs.
Passengers on the Concorde
(60; 000 ft) routinely marveled at the curvature of
the Earth. Gutierrez believes that if the field of view
(FOV) is wide enough, it might be possible to detect
curvature from lower altitudes. The author has also
talked to many commercial pilots, and they report
that from elevations around 35; 000 ft, they cannot
see the curvature.


I have read this article many times, and I still don't understand why we are supposed to accept his testimony over that of others.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Disarray

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2011, 10:44:39 PM »
I performed the following experiment while on a plane one time:

Items required:
1 plane ticket
1 straight edge

While in a plane, I first compared the straight edge to a long (known) straight line on the airport through the plane window as a control to eliminate any warping effects by the window itself as a cause for curvature.

Then while in the air at cruising altitude, I then compared the straight edge to the horizon again, and detected a small amount of curvature.

I will admit, with the unassisted naked eye, I could not detect any curvature, but even simple tools can be effective.

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Vindictus

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2011, 11:52:46 PM »
So curvature can be seen from the average plane flight?

Good game, Rowbotham!

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Great A Tuin

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2011, 03:40:39 AM »

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berny_74

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2011, 05:55:36 AM »

I have read this article many times, and I still don't understand why we are supposed to accept his testimony over that of others.

Why should we accept his testimony any less than the testimony of people here?  Especially those who make diagrams with exaggerated waves and little dinosaurs sailing on them?

Berny
Been on a plane
To be fair, sometimes what FE'ers say makes so little sense that it's hard to come up with a rebuttal.
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markjo

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2011, 06:25:42 AM »
I have read this article many times, and I still don't understand why we are supposed to accept his testimony over that of others.

Because, unlike many FE'ers here, he supports his arguments with actual research.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2011, 07:56:43 AM »
I performed the following experiment while on a plane one time:

Items required:
1 plane ticket
1 straight edge

While in a plane, I first compared the straight edge to a long (known) straight line on the airport through the plane window as a control to eliminate any warping effects by the window itself as a cause for curvature.

Then while in the air at cruising altitude, I then compared the straight edge to the horizon again, and detected a small amount of curvature.

I will admit, with the unassisted naked eye, I could not detect any curvature, but even simple tools can be effective.


Yet the research you posted states that many pilots etc. could not detect this curvature, despite flying planes for a living and having a much better FOV than you did.





Correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like the wing of a U-2 spy plane to me, and they are not commercial aircraft. Moreover, the Horizon is not in the centre of the picture as the posted research claimed was necessary.


Why should we accept his testimony any less than the testimony of people here?


I'm not asking you to do so. I am asking why he thinks his single experience outweighs the experiences of all the people he mentions in his article who contradict him.


Because, unlike many FE'ers here, he supports his arguments with actual research.


Research that included a great deal of eye-witness testimony contradicting his account.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Great A Tuin

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2011, 08:27:11 AM »

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General Disarray

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2011, 08:27:54 AM »
Did "many pilots" perform similar experiments to the one I did? I readily admitted that I was unable to detect curvature with the naked eye, and the article didn't say anything about them using tools in an active effort to detect curvature.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2011, 08:29:26 AM »
While in a plane, I first compared the straight edge to a long (known) straight line on the airport through the plane window as a control to eliminate any warping effects by the window itself as a cause for curvature.
ITT: Lenses always work the same, no matter how far away from the projected object they are.

lol, nope.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2011, 08:48:57 AM »
Did "many pilots" perform similar experiments to the one I did? I readily admitted that I was unable to detect curvature with the naked eye, and the article didn't say anything about them using tools in an active effort to detect curvature.


I don't know, that sounds like a question you should ask the researcher whose work you used to support your argument. Indeed, that's why I posed this question:


I am asking why he thinks his single experience outweighs the experiences of all the people he mentions in his article who contradict him.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Great A Tuin

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2011, 08:52:54 AM »
You haven't commented on the rather famous link yet. I take it it's all faked using CGI and the Earth is still flat because.....er......you say so.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2011, 08:59:01 AM »
You haven't commented on the rather famous link yet. I take it it's all faked using CGI and the Earth is still flat because.....er......you say so.
We (or, well, I. I probably shouldn't speak for the rest) didn't comment on it, because it's old as hell and you should lurk moar and post less.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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Great A Tuin

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Re: What if you're wrong?
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2011, 09:40:46 AM »
Thanks for the advice but being silent in the face of idiocy isn't one of my qualities. An explanation is still required. Or is it all part of the "conspiracy" (such a useful phrase that, a bit like saying "because it's how God made it", covers all manner of non-scientific rubbish).