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FET is creationism, nothing more.

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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2009, 12:02:02 AM »
Quote from: Dogplatter on July 01, 2009, 09:08:09 AM
Quote from: danwood on July 01, 2009, 08:17:52 AM
Because the founders of the flat earth society were devout christians.
So yeah you should believe in a creator!

How can you be so foolish? Newton, inventor of gravity, was also a devout Christian. Ought globularists to be devout Chrstians also?

Better yet, the first globularist, Plato, believed in state-sponsored eugenics, as well as a fantasy world of perfect ideals which beamed reality into physical objects. Ought globularists believe either of these?

I didnt say all christians think the world is flat.
Not even the bible mentions the shape of the earth in so many words it just happens that the literal catholics believe the world is flat.

99.99% of religions in the world believe the earth is a spheroid just the minority that believe its flat and so this society was born.
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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2009, 04:29:50 AM »
You haven't answered my question. The contraversial claim, which YOU made, is this:

Quote
Because the founders of the flat earth society were devout christians.
So yeah you should believe in a creator!

Which implies that you must wholesale accept the beliefs of whoever comes up with your other beliefs.

If that claim which you made is true, you ought to be a Christian Platonist, by your own argument. If it's false, then, well, it's false (and it is, in fact, false).
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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2009, 04:42:25 AM »
Eh?
I am a pure atheist and a scientist, I believe in theories and information that can be backed up by proof and can be recreated and tested unlike most of the bull you believe. I do not believe in god in either sense.
I think you are trying to nit pick and are sounding like an idiot in the process.

This society was built by literal catholics (as in taking the bible literally not as in they literally are catholics) and in believing in what they believe you must come to a similar conclusion about life and how the world was created (some big guy with a beard magicing it up out of thin air). That is the history of this society and that is what I was pointing out.
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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2009, 04:58:00 AM »
You have absolutely no clue. For starters, Rowbotham was a protestant, not that this fact makes a single bit of difference to the argument at hand, he could have been a hindu or a scientologist or an Oden-worshipping pagan for all I care, and for all the difference it would make to his scientific, empirical work (none).

The Catholic Church has been globularist since its inception. Do you want to challenge me on this point? Perhaps you ought to do a bit of research before pulling claims like that out of thin air.

I am not trying to nitpick, here is an exact quote by you which is exactly wrong for exactly the reason I posted.

Quote from: danwood on July 01, 2009, 08:17:52 AM
Because the founders of the flat earth society were devout christians.
So yeah you should believe in a creator!

No, I should not believe in a creator you complete dumbshoe. I do not believe in a creator, nor should I, because in the real world, you don't have to believe all of the same things that the proponent of ONE of your beliefs holds to be true!

If that WERE TRUE; if I had to believe in a creator because Rowbotham did, then you would have to believe in Platonism because Plato did. Clearly that isn't the case, is it?

Now, please provide a different (valid and sound) answer to my original question, which was this:

Quote from: Dogplatter on July 01, 2009, 04:04:29 AM
Why does holding ANY belief about the shape of the Earth imply holding ANY belief about the existence of a creator?

It's a rhetorical question, because it doesn't imply anything like that, anyone with a basic grasp of reason and a secondary-school literacy level can see that you can quite well believe in one thing that somebody says and disbelieve another thing they say.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 05:01:49 AM by Dogplatter »
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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #124 on: July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM »
Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 04:58:00 AM
You have absolutely no clue. For starters, Rowbotham was a protestant, not that this fact makes a single bit of difference to the argument at hand, he could have been a hindu or a scientologist or an Oden-worshipping pagan for all I care, and for all the difference it would make to his scientific, empirical work (none).

The Catholic Church has been globularist since its inception. Do you want to challenge me on this point? Perhaps you ought to do a bit of research before pulling claims like that out of thin air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Catholic_Apostolic_Church
Maybe you should do some research!
These are Rowbothams followers and are catholic?
Show me a source which says he was a protestant? I know most of England are but there are some catholics out there!

Also he couldnt have been scientologist as it didnt exist when he was alive you tool!

Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 04:58:00 AM
If that WERE TRUE; if I had to believe in a creator because Rowbotham did, then you would have to believe in Platonism because Plato did. Clearly that isn't the case, is it?

Plato isnt the king of my belief system the scientific community is.
Anything that holds in the scientific community I believe in as it will have been tested and reproduced and scrutinised by many people. This is the exact opposite of Rowbothams work in which nothing can be repeated.
Rowboatman is the god of the flat earth myth and he obviously believed in a creator by your own admission.

Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 04:58:00 AM
Now, please provide a different (valid and sound) answer to my original question, which was this:

Quote from: Dogplatter on July 01, 2009, 04:04:29 AM
Why does holding ANY belief about the shape of the Earth imply holding ANY belief about the existence of a creator?

It's a rhetorical question, because it doesn't imply anything like that, anyone with a basic grasp of reason and a secondary-school literacy level can see that you can quite well believe in one thing that somebody says and disbelieve another thing they say.

If you do not believe in a God then you are likely to believe in science, if you were to believe in science then you wouldn't believe the world is flat and we wouldnt be having this conversation.
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CACTUSJACKmankin

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #125 on: July 02, 2009, 05:36:46 AM »
FETers may not be creationists, but they sure do act like them: they deny entire fields of science and replace them with their own versions, they explain the consensus of the experts via conspiracy, and any inconsistencies can simply be explained away by some magical force (in this case Dark Energy).
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2009, 05:45:36 AM »
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 04:58:00 AM
If that WERE TRUE; if I had to believe in a creator because Rowbotham did, then you would have to believe in Platonism because Plato did. Clearly that isn't the case, is it?

Plato isnt the king of my belief system the scientific community is.
Anything that holds in the scientific community I believe in as it will have been tested and reproduced and scrutinised by many people. This is the exact opposite of Rowbothams work in which nothing can be repeated.
Rowboatman is the god of the flat earth myth and he obviously believed in a creator by your own admission.

You mean like Newton? He was devout christian, and he practically invented the concept of 'gravity'. Einstein's views on 'god' are ambiguous, bet he certainly seems to have believed in some higher power. By your logic, you should either reject these theories or believe in 'god'.
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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2009, 05:50:03 AM »
You obviously didnt bother reading my post.
So I forgot that I read yours!
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Squat

Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #128 on: July 02, 2009, 05:52:07 AM »
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 04:42:25 AM

I am (a pure atheist and) a scientist,

No offence danwood, but you're not arguing like one. 
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2009, 05:52:56 AM »
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:50:03 AM
You obviously didnt bother reading my post.
So I forgot that I read yours!

What? You said this:


Quote from: danwood on July 01, 2009, 08:17:52 AM
Because the founders of the flat earth society were devout christians.
So yeah you should believe in a creator!


Newton and Einstein believed in creators, so either admit you were wrong, or admit that you too should also believe in a creator.
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2009, 05:59:01 AM »
Danwood don't be so fucking stupid. If FE'ers have to believe what Rowbotham believed then RE'ers have to belueve what Plato believed, what Newton believed etc.. It can't work just one way.
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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2009, 06:00:55 AM »
No dont be so thick.

Both einstein and newton gave great contributions to science, their theories have stood many tests and all their work can be repeated.
There is no scientific proof for a god but if one day science turns something up and prooves his existance I will believe it.

Since you believe the earth is flat blindly why would I not assume you to be a creationist liek you forefather?
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zork

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2009, 06:07:50 AM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 05:52:56 AM
Newton and Einstein believed in creators, so either admit you were wrong, or admit that you too should also believe in a creator.
  What century it was when Newton lived, 17? Almost everyone were christians in Europe at this time and believed God. They were raised from the beginning and teached to believe in god. And about Einstein. Can you quote something, because Wikipedia don't say anything about that. You are like Tom, stuck in some historical times and can't see that times are changed.
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Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2009, 06:11:53 AM »
Quote from: zork on July 02, 2009, 06:07:50 AM
What century it was when Newton lived, 17? Almost everyone were christians in Europe at this time and believed God. They were raised from the beginning and teached to believe in god. And about Einstein. Can you quote something, because Wikipedia don't say anything about that. You are like Tom, stuck in some historical times and can't see that times are changed.


When Rowbotham was alive, most people were christian and it was considered extremely subversive to be an atheist. How is this any different from Newton?

As regards Einstein, did you even read the link you just gave me? Here's a quote from Einstein on that very same page: "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." I'd consider that a 'higher power', wouldn't you?


Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 06:00:55 AM
No dont be so thick.

I'm not being 'thick'. You're the one making contradictory statements. You claim we must believe in a creator because Rowbotham did, but you don't believe in a creator even though Newton and Einstein did. Your point makes no sense, because you imply that we must have the same religious beliefs as other FE theorists, even though you don't hold yourself to the same standard. Now, let's try this again:

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 05:52:56 AM
Quote from: danwood on July 01, 2009, 08:17:52 AM
Because the founders of the flat earth society were devout christians.
So yeah you should believe in a creator!

Newton and Einstein believed in creators, so either admit you were wrong, or admit that you too should also believe in a creator.


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Mark.D

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #134 on: July 02, 2009, 06:26:47 AM »
Einstein believed in an "Inner" god, one that reveals himself through nature, or what Einstein thought of as the mathamathical workings of the universe. He thought of god as the beauty of the world around him and something to describe how marvellous everything around him was. It's hard to explain in the written word, but I think you get the picture.

He never said, and it is largely believed, that his God had any power in our world.



As for scientific proof of a god, it cannot be found.
God cannot be touched by science, only by logic, Which is why I am an Atheist.
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Mark.D

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2009, 06:27:46 AM »
Quote from: Mark.D on July 02, 2009, 06:26:47 AM
Einstein believed in an "Inner" god, one that reveals himself through nature, or what Einstein thought of as the mathamathical workings of the universe. He thought of god as the beauty of the world around him and something to describe how marvellous everything around him was. It's hard to explain in the written word, but I think you get the picture.

He never said, and it is largely believed, that his God had any power in our world. This is different from the Christian God.



As for scientific proof of a god, it cannot be found.
God cannot be touched by science, only by logic, Which is why I am an Atheist.
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zork

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2009, 06:35:19 AM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 06:11:53 AM
As regards Einstein, did you even read the link you just gave me? Here's a quote from Einstein on that very same page: "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." I'd consider that a 'higher power', wouldn't you?
No, Spinoza's God(The consequences of Spinoza's system also envisage a God that does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself is the deterministic system of which everything in nature is a part. Thus, according to this understanding of Spinoza's system, God would be the natural world and have no personality.) doesn't seem to me as "higher power". Your quote was from year 1929, in 1954 he wrote - The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
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Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.
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Mark.D

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #137 on: July 02, 2009, 06:46:48 AM »
That's basically what I was trying to say Zork  :) Cheers.

*Off Topic*

Quote
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
Never knew how closely someone else could have restated my feelings to the finest degree! And to think that this man is without the one of the finest brains to grace our earth is something special  :) This has made my day... Thanks for the quote Zork!


 
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #138 on: July 02, 2009, 06:52:55 AM »
Quote from: zork on July 02, 2009, 06:35:19 AM
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 06:11:53 AM
As regards Einstein, did you even read the link you just gave me? Here's a quote from Einstein on that very same page: "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." I'd consider that a 'higher power', wouldn't you?
No, Spinoza's God(The consequences of Spinoza's system also envisage a God that does not rule over the universe by providence, but a God which itself is the deterministic system of which everything in nature is a part. Thus, according to this understanding of Spinoza's system, God would be the natural world and have no personality.) doesn't seem to me as "higher power". Your quote was from year 1929, in 1954 he wrote - The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.


Like I said, Einstein's views are amiguous- why refer to such a god as 'Himself' (note the capitalisation), or even as a 'God'? And Einstein's theories made their mark before 1929, which was when he made the quote I made. His views probably changed over time, and I'm not attempting to criticise those views- I am an atheist, as I have already made clear in this topic. I'm just pointing out that danwood's criticism makes no sense, especially in the case of Newton, who believed very much in a christian personal god.
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James

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #139 on: July 02, 2009, 08:57:16 AM »
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Catholic_Apostolic_Church
Maybe you should do some research!
These are Rowbothams followers and are catholic?
Show me a source which says he was a protestant? I know most of England are but there are some catholics out there!

Also he couldnt have been scientologist as it didnt exist when he was alive you tool!

The CCAC were followers of JOHN ALEXANDER DOWIE and WILBUR VOLIVA. They happened to believe the Earth was flat, just like Rowbotham did almost a century before. Again, happening to believe the Earth is flat doesn't mean you have to share the same religious belief as Rowbotham. How can you possibly be so clumsy in an argument? Even your fellow globularists are criticising your absurd claims!

Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
Plato isnt the king of my belief system the scientific community is.

Rowbotham isn't "the king of" my belief system either, you dolt. Rowbotham was a key scientist in the Flat Earth movement, just as Plato was a key scientist in the Round Earth movement (he likely invented it, in fact).

Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
Anything that holds in the scientific community I believe in as it will have been tested and reproduced and scrutinised by many people.

You admit, then, that you have blind faith in the scientific establishment. Way to go.

Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
This is the exact opposite of Rowbothams work in which nothing can be repeated.

I can be, and it often is. Every single experiment in Earth Not a Globe is clearly described, method and all, and has been repeated by countless scholars over the last 150 years.

Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
If you do not believe in a God then you are likely to believe in science, if you were to believe in science then you wouldn't believe the world is flat and we wouldnt be having this conversation.

I can scarcely believe that you're not a troll. If you aren't, as I suspect, a re-reg deliberately playing the fool, then I truly lament for the future of humanity.

I suspect that I have studied scientific method and the history of science to a far greater extent than you have. To claim that I "don't believe in science" is grossly presumtive, especially considering the apparent poverty of your own knowledge. To claim that believing in scientific processes themselves implies belief in any of the actual content of normal science, is one of the most ridiculous claims I have countenanced for a very long time. You obviously know absolutely nothing about the philosophy of science or its methods.

I do not believe in God. I'm not even sure what you mean by the inane notion of "believing in science", but I certainly am aware of all of the pertinent discourse on the scientific method and believe that properly executed, scientific processes can reveal truths about the universe. I also believe that the Earth is flat.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2009, 09:21:17 AM »
Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 08:57:16 AM
Rowbotham was a key scientist in the Flat Earth movement, just as Plato was a key scientist in the Round Earth movement (he likely invented it, in fact).

One thing I should say Dogplatter is that Plato didn't invent the idea of a spherical earth- it was prevalent in Greece more than a hundred years before he was born. In particular, Pythagoras and Pythagorean philosophers speculated that the earth was a sphere, as their theories were largely based on the idea of harmony (for example they believed the soul was a harmnious attunement within the body), and they felt spheres were the most harmonious of shapes.

In any case, it is hard to say whether Plato really believed in the spherical earth he postulates in the Phaedo, as it is written as a myth, and (the character) Socrates freely admits at the end of his description that it is not factual and that there is no basis for such a belief- he merely regards it as a noble contention. He believes we should use accounts to 'enchant ourselves with', and his account is less a genuine scientific contention than it is a mythical story encouraging philosophers to lead a 'good' life dedicated to wisdom. Moreover, Platos myth is so far from modern round earth theory that it is probably unfair to both to compare them. In Aristotles works however, we do see the beginnings of modern RET, as his claims are genuine geographical contentions and based on the same kind of ideas RE'ers use to this day.
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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2009, 10:44:30 AM »
Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 08:57:16 AM
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
Anything that holds in the scientific community I believe in as it will have been tested and reproduced and scrutinised by many people.

You admit, then, that you have blind faith in the scientific establishment. Way to go.

Not blind faith as the scientific establishment is backed by results and repeatable evidence unlike everything to do with the silly flat earth myth.

Basically anybody with any brains believes the earth is a spheroid, and has done since ancient times.

How was the earth created then if it wasnt by God?

In the scientific community the widely believed theory is the big bang, this is due to observations and calculations that all galaxies have certain velocities and appear to all have originated from a certain point.
This is a theory which is pretty good, unfortunately this wouldn't work in your flat world as space doesn't exist.

Please explain how your flat plain of existence was created?
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2009, 11:08:56 AM »
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 10:44:30 AM
Quote from: Dogplatter on July 02, 2009, 08:57:16 AM
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 05:18:05 AM
Anything that holds in the scientific community I believe in as it will have been tested and reproduced and scrutinised by many people.

You admit, then, that you have blind faith in the scientific establishment. Way to go.

Not blind faith as the scientific establishment is backed by results and repeatable evidence unlike everything to do with the silly flat earth myth.

Basically anybody with any brains believes the earth is a spheroid, and has done since ancient times.

How was the earth created then if it wasnt by God?

In the scientific community the widely believed theory is the big bang, this is due to observations and calculations that all galaxies have certain velocities and appear to all have originated from a certain point.
This is a theory which is pretty good, unfortunately this wouldn't work in your flat world as space doesn't exist.

Please explain how your flat plain of existence was created?

....  ???
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danwood

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2009, 11:40:37 AM »
Sorry not that space doesnt exist but all the stars are 3100 miles up or whatever.
Either way its not the same as space so the BB theory doesnt work.

How do you believe life started?

If it was by God then yes you are a creationist. (that is its definition)
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2009, 06:13:30 PM »
Can you read? We've explicitly stated that we are atheists. I suggest you visit the following sites:


www.rif.org

www.hop.com
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CACTUSJACKmankin

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2009, 06:15:56 PM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 06:13:30 PM
Can you read? We've explicitly stated that we are atheists. I suggest you visit the following sites:


www.rif.org

www.hop.com
And Flat Earthers need to stop giving atheists a bad name.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2009, 06:20:10 PM »
If you ask me, RE'ers need to stop giving RET such a bad name.
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CACTUSJACKmankin

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Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2009, 06:29:55 PM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 06:20:10 PM
If you ask me, RE'ers need to stop giving RET such a bad name.
The calculation of the approximate shape of the earth predates modern science by about 4,000 years and hasn't been seriously challenged academically since. Talk about an idea that works. Scientific discovery and the formalization of the scientific methodology have only led to confirmation after confirmation of this model. And now that we take advantage of earths orbit for satellites and have seen it from space there is NO scientific doubt that the earth is spherical. All that conjecture and conspiracy theorizing hasn't led to any credible alternative science. Congratualtions FETs: you have the same amount of scientific credibility as YEC, perhaps even less!!!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 06:33:31 PM by CACTUSJACKmankin »
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The Flat Earth Society: The earth is the shape of a coin and our brains are the size of it.
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danwood

  • 102
Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2009, 11:47:02 PM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on July 02, 2009, 06:13:30 PM
Can you read? We've explicitly stated that we are atheists. I suggest you visit the following sites:


www.rif.org

www.hop.com

I can read, you obviously cannot.

Quote from: danwood76
How do you believe life started?

If it was by God then yes you are a creationist. (that is its definition)

How do you believe life started on earth?
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James

  • Flat Earther
  • The Elder Ones
  • 5613
Re: FET is creationism, nothing more.
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2009, 03:09:17 AM »
Quote from: danwood on July 02, 2009, 11:47:02 PM
How do you believe life started on earth?

Abiogenesis.

You can stop hammering away at this tired point because there is not a single part of my worldview which involves the existence of creator. The entire notion, which appears to have been the basic point of the whole thread so far, is a ridiculous smear. It is literally just accusing my colleagues and I of believeing something which we explicitly do not.
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"For your own sake, as well as for that of our beloved country, be bold and firm against error and evil of every kind." - David Wardlaw Scott, Terra Firma 1901
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