Thought Experiments and their Taxonomy

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

If you dont know theres an end, then its assumed it goes on forver.... infinite.
Else youre assuming an end.
So then proove theres an end.

That’s just the point. If there were an edge it would not be infinite. Having an edge is a property of the finite. That’s why an expanding infinity makes no sense as it’s already infinite.

...
Lets say you have infinite balls lined up, all touching, infinitely in a straight line.
You push two balls appart.
So that the balls start rolling away from each other from that point.
Infinitely left.   
Infinitely right.
Is it expanding in terms of the gap?
Is it still infinite?

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

They have agreed, what do you think that proves?
Like yourself they  appear to think And say some odd things.
For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass, while The flying pig person thinks the universe is infinite, but won’t disclose how old he thinks it is. While you imagine a physical infinity can expand! And you think I’m wrong!

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 01:59:44 PM

If you dont know theres an end, then its assumed it goes on forver.... infinite.
Else youre assuming an end.
So then proove theres an end.

That’s just the point. If there were an edge it would not be infinite. Having an edge is a property of the finite. That’s why an expanding infinity makes no sense as it’s already infinite.

Also
Specifically to this point was regards to burden of proof.
You have issue proving infinity.
But if the edge is finitely away but reeeeeeaaaaaly far away.
How then would you be able to prove theres an end?

...
Lets say you have infinite balls lined up, all touching, infinitely in a straight line.
You push two balls appart.
So that the balls start rolling away from each other from that point.
Infinitely left.   
Infinitely right.
Is it expanding in terms of the gap?
Is it still infinite?

Are we speaking about the physical world here?

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 02:05:18 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 01:59:44 PM

If you dont know theres an end, then its assumed it goes on forver.... infinite.
Else youre assuming an end.
So then proove theres an end.

That’s just the point. If there were an edge it would not be infinite. Having an edge is a property of the finite. That’s why an expanding infinity makes no sense as it’s already infinite.

Also
Specifically to this point was regards to burden of proof.
You have issue proving infinity.
But if the edge is finitely away but reeeeeeaaaaaly far away.
How then would you be able to prove theres an end?

Exactly, infinite means infinite no edge exists as it’s infinite.

I’m regard to your touching infinite line of balls all touching. If that were the case I imagine you would not be a able to move them as you would be pushing against infinite mass.
Thought experiments of the entertainment variety are just that, entertaining and should not be taken too seriously. What has emerged is that people don’t really have a grasp of what a physical infinity really is abc means.

That’s why an expanding infinity makes no sense as it’s already infinite.

And there you go not understanding infinity again.

Note: Assuming it is infinite.
Yes, it is already infinite.
Yes, after expanding it will still be infinite.
What you are ignoring is the finite distance between 2 objects.
After expanding this finite distance will increase.

A simple example is the number line, where you focus on all the integers.
If you expand by a factor of 10, you instead have all the multiples of 10.
It expanded but it was and still is infinite.

It isn't the edge is moving further away. It is that EVERYTHING is moving further away from everything else.

For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass

So now you resort to blatantly lying about what I have said?
Where have I said an infinite plane has finite mass?

I have said it has a finite gravitational field, in the sense that the value for the field at any point is finite.

I pointed out that you were appealing to the infinite mass and infinite size and thus your argument would apply to any object with infinite mass and size, not needing any irregularities.

I also pointed out that you were treating this infinite plane as if it was just a very large finite object.
But I don't recall ever claiming that it has finite mass.

What has emerged is that people don’t really have a grasp of what a physical infinity really is abc means.

You especially.
As your argument against it relied upon treating it as if it was just a very large finite object.

So how about you stop blatantly lying about what people have said, stop pretending your argument was something it was not and either defend your argument or admit it was wrong.

Remember, saying we don't know how the infinite behaves is not defending your argument, it is attacking it and thus if you truly believe that you should admit your argument is baseless (i.e. wrong).

Also note that saying the argument is wrong doesn't mean the conclusion is. It means the conclusion is not supported by that argument, either due to problems with the logic of the argument, or problems with the premises.

This also means that otherwise defending your conclusion is not defending your argument.

Now again, can you explain why the infinite mass will result in infinite gravity which would cause the plane to collapse into a black hole?
If not, can you admit your mistake and own up, either by saying you were wrong because we know how it would behave, and even with infinite mass, there is no reason for it to collapse or by saying you cannot possibly know how such an infinite mass would behave and thus were wrong to make such a conclusion?

Let’s start by you telling me how you know the universe is infinite.

I never said it was. I said it could very well be. A flat universe, as opposed to an open or closed one, would theoretically extend infinitely.

And then you can explain how something physically infinite would expand.

Weren't you the one that brought up the Hilbert Hotel example before? That exemplifies the answer you are looking for. And funny enough, also indicates you aren't considering the fact that there different types of infinities - infinity is not a singular concept.

Again burden of proof.
You say I’m wrong but not once have you offered any real corroborated evidence to support your own opinions. That leads me to believe you have none and all you are doing is offering your own Unsupported opinion that you are welcome to. Though it’s pretty ironic that here you are on a flat earth forum asking for proof from other people.

YOU made the positive claims here, which places the burden of proof squarely on your shoulders. That's how it works.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:03:29 PM

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

They have agreed, what do you think that proves?
Like yourself they  appear to think And say some odd things.
For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass, while The flying pig person thinks the universe is infinite, but won’t disclose how old he thinks it is. While you imagine a physical infinity can expand! And you think I’m wrong!

Dafuq you on about, man?
Theyre not thinking anything other than you made a bad premise.
And by your bad requirement for them to prove against your bad premise.
i conclude the same.
They dont need to proove themseleves   rightper se, just that what you said is wrong.
Think peer reviewwd scientific journals.
A fellow peer doesnt need to solve the problem, just verify or dispute the journal istelf

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:03:29 PM

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

They have agreed, what do you think that proves?
Like yourself they  appear to think And say some odd things.
For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass, while The flying pig person thinks the universe is infinite, but won’t disclose how old he thinks it is. While you imagine a physical infinity can expand! And you think I’m wrong!

You are fucking bonkers, dude! Everything about what you said here is a gross mischaracterization of what has transpired. I don't even know how you arrived at this post. JackBlack didn't say what you said he did, I didn't say what your said I did, I didn't refuse to answer anything regarding the age of the universe (which, tangentially, has literally nothing to do with this conversation anyway), and there is absolutely no reason that something infinite in expanse cannot still expand. None of this is controversial. Why you think so is a mystery to me.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 02:11:28 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:03:29 PM

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

They have agreed, what do you think that proves?
Like yourself they  appear to think And say some odd things.
For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass, while The flying pig person thinks the universe is infinite, but won’t disclose how old he thinks it is. While you imagine a physical infinity can expand! And you think I’m wrong!

Dafuq you on about, man?
Theyre not thinking anything other than you made a bad premise.
And by your bad requirement for them to prove against your bad premise.
i conclude the same.
They dont need to proove themseleves   rightper se, just that what you said is wrong.

Only in their opinion. It just so happens I disagree with them.

You aren't entitled to you own facts, sir.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 02:11:28 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:03:29 PM

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

They have agreed, what do you think that proves?
Like yourself they  appear to think And say some odd things.
For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass, while The flying pig person thinks the universe is infinite, but won’t disclose how old he thinks it is. While you imagine a physical infinity can expand! And you think I’m wrong!

You are fucking bonkers, dude! Everything about what you said here is a gross mischaracterization of what has transpired. I don't even know how you arrived at this post. JackBlack didn't say what you said he did, I didn't say what your said I did, I didn't refuse to answer anything regarding the age of the universe (which, tangentially, has literally nothing to do with this conversation anyway), and there is absolutely no reason that something infinite in expanse cannot still expand. None of this is controversial. Why you think so is a mystery to me.

That’s a bit uncalled for what with you a moderator. I just don’t agree with you. What’s your problem? Is disagreement not allowed? Do you have a monopoly on being right? Many of the things you have said are either unfounded or just plain wrong in my opinion. The fact that you have to resort to abusive language really speaks volumes.
Ok what do you think the age of the universe is?
You honestly think that a physical infinity can expand? Where did you come by that? Or do you just happen to think it? As I’ve said different sized infinities can exist in the world of maths but not in the physical world. Now you can choose to disagree, but not claim to be right.

You aren't entitled to you own facts, sir.

Nothing you have said about physical infinities can be said to be facts.
The only fact is they don’t exist.
Read this
https://philpapers.org/archive/SEWTCA

The only fact is they don’t exist.

That's an assertion you haven't demonstrated to be true. You don't just get cry that everyone else is wrong because you are the arbiter of truth, and anything you say should be left unquestioned. You have made the positive assertions in this thread, you have been unable to actually back them up, you have been the one moving the goalposts, and you are the one refusing to own up to being wrong. That's not on anyone else here.

(this was added after the fact...)
https://philpapers.org/archive/SEWTCA

It's a nice opinion piece. Not really much more than that.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:09:23 PM

...
Lets say you have infinite balls lined up, all touching, infinitely in a straight line.
You push two balls appart.
So that the balls start rolling away from each other from that point.
Infinitely left.   
Infinitely right.
Is it expanding in terms of the gap?
Is it still infinite?

Are we speaking about the physical world here?

Its a thought experiemnt about hypothetical.
Go look up hypothetical definition.

The analogy was to show how infinity can expand.
Not about the practicality of placing inf balls of greater than zero mass in a row and being able to push them.
Seriously.
Relax.
Maybe you put on your underwear backwards this morning.

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:12:36 PM

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 02:05:18 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 01:59:44 PM

If you dont know theres an end, then its assumed it goes on forver.... infinite.
Else youre assuming an end.
So then proove theres an end.

That’s just the point. If there were an edge it would not be infinite. Having an edge is a property of the finite. That’s why an expanding infinity makes no sense as it’s already infinite.

Also
Specifically to this point was regards to burden of proof.
You have issue proving infinity.
But if the edge is finitely away but reeeeeeaaaaaly far away.
How then would you be able to prove theres an end?

Exactly, infinite means infinite no edge exists as it’s infinite.

Right
Prove its infinite.
If you cant.
Prove its not infinite.
If you cant.
Then boyd is right - bad premise.

Quote from: boydster on January 22, 2020, 02:59:49 PM

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 02:11:28 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on January 22, 2020, 02:03:29 PM

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

They have agreed, what do you think that proves?
Like yourself they  appear to think And say some odd things.
For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass, while The flying pig person thinks the universe is infinite, but won’t disclose how old he thinks it is. While you imagine a physical infinity can expand! And you think I’m wrong!

You are fucking bonkers, dude! Everything about what you said here is a gross mischaracterization of what has transpired. I don't even know how you arrived at this post. JackBlack didn't say what you said he did, I didn't say what your said I did, I didn't refuse to answer anything regarding the age of the universe (which, tangentially, has literally nothing to do with this conversation anyway), and there is absolutely no reason that something infinite in expanse cannot still expand. None of this is controversial. Why you think so is a mystery to me.

That’s a bit uncalled for what with you a moderator. I just don’t agree with you. What’s your problem? Is disagreement not allowed? Do you have a monopoly on being right? Many of the things you have said are either unfounded or just plain wrong in my opinion. The fact that you have to resort to abusive language really speaks volumes.
Ok what do you think the age of the universe is?
You honestly think that a physical infinity can expand? Where did you come by that? Or do you just happen to think it? As I’ve said different sized infinities can exist in the world of maths but not in the physical world. Now you can choose to disagree, but not claim to be right.

Nope
I said dafuq you on about.
He called you bonkrrs.
And ol man jackB is whining about his integrity being called into question.
At pg7 you have definitely tried our patience short of ALL CAPSing you rants.
Keep calm and carry on, in a much more calmer calm, because your current verbage is coming across as very not calm.
Uncalm.
Discalm.
Anticalm.

For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass!

Where exactly did JackBlack say he "thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass"?

The exact words, thank you!

Do a search here.
I had a discussion with jane once.
Im sure others have gone over the topic as well.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 03:09:46 PM

(this was added after the fact...)
https://philpapers.org/archive/SEWTCA

It's a nice opinion piece. Not really much more than that.

All I can say it’s a lot more coherent and substantial that the nil references you have presented. Much as you don’t like it my opinions are based on the current belief out there among professional Physicists, while your ideas and views come from where?
And you’ve still not provided your take on the age of the universe and how you arrived at it.
Reminds me of The Bishop moon distance secret.

Both jackb (re) and boyd (fe) have agreed and pointed out you are wrong in premise and your bad premise, as pointed out, is their evidence of it.

I really have to refer to this again. I present information based on current papers produced by professional researchers/physicists yet you would choose to believe the opinions of two people because they agree with each other! That’s a very dubious way of forming opinions, but each to his own.

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 02:11:28 PM

For example Jack B thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass!

Where exactly did JackBlack say he "thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass"?

The exact words, thank you!

If you want to trawl through the incoherent ravings of mr Black then be my guest, you want it go find it.

You aren't entitled to you own facts, sir.

You speak about facts. You speak about burden of proof. In this whole discussion your facts all appear to be based on ONE link you posted. One link to this very website!

Quote from: rabinoz on January 22, 2020, 04:24:10 PM

Where exactly did JackBlack say he "thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass"?

The exact words, thank you!

If you want to trawl through the incoherent ravings of mr Black then be my guest, you want it go find it.

You made the accusation so the onus is on you to provide evidence supporting your accusation.
So, "The exact words, thank you!".

Only in their opinion. It just so happens I disagree with them.

No, not just only in our opinion.
On a factual basis.
You disagreeing with facts doesn't magically make them just opinion.

You have set yourself up so you MUST be wrong about at least some of what you have said.

I just don’t agree with you.

No, you are making claims of fact which are false.
You are blatantly lying, and repeatedly insulting people.
And you insist that you are correct, not just in your opinion.
That is not just simple disagreement.

As I’ve said

And that is the problem. You just say things. You don't bother justifying them.

See when rational mature adults disagree they don't repeatedly claim that they are correct and the other people just have opinions and repeatedly insult the other people, all while refusing to back up their claims.
There are a few things they can do, such as openly admit that what they are presenting is just their opinion and that they may in fact be wrong.
Or they could actually defend their claims. And no, demanding people prove you wrong is not defending your claims.

Now you can choose to disagree, but not claim to be right.

No, as we can actually explain what is wrong with your argument, there is no reason for us to not claim to be right.
Meanwhile, as you refuse to provide any justification for your claims, it is you who has no basis to claim they are right.

So if you want to disagree, how about you try to defend your position?
Clearly explain how we can know that the infinite mass of an infinite plane would cause it to collapse into a black hole.
Especially considering you also claim we couldn't possibly know how such an infinite object would behave.

Nothing you have said about physical infinities can be said to be facts.
The only fact is they don’t exist.

Again, PROVE IT! (Actually, not yet, wait until you either admit that your initial argument was wrong, or actually defend it).
Especially note that you have said that we cannot know anything about them. So how can we know that they don't exist?
As boydster asked, can you show that the universe is not infinite?

Also, the paper you are providing is just more baseless claims, where it even goes as far as saying that the set of all integers is not infinite, which is pure nonsense.

And you’ve still not provided your take on the age of the universe and how you arrived at it.
Reminds me of The Bishop moon distance secret.

Really?
It should more remind you of Tom Bishop's deflection tactics where he does all he can to avoid the issues.
After all, that is exactly what you are doing.

I really have to refer to this again. I present information based on current papers produced by professional researchers/physicists

You mean you misrepresent them.
Again, nothing there backs up your argument.
As already pointed out, some directly contradicts your argument.
That is a very dubious ways of pretending your baseless opinion is justified.
Literally taking things that show you are wrong, to pretend you are correct, or just completely misapplying them.

Do you even understand your own references?
Or do you just look for whatever you think can back you up?

you want it go find it.

So yet again you refuse to back up your claims.

If you claim someone has said something, the burden is on you to show that.

Now again, can you actually back up your argument?
Can you show the infinite mass of an infinite plane will cause it to collapse into a black hole?
Or now that there isn't millions of dollars on the line and instead it is just your ego are you unable to admit your mistakes and own up?

Quote from: Timeisup on January 22, 2020, 11:45:45 PM

Quote from: rabinoz on January 22, 2020, 04:24:10 PM

Where exactly did JackBlack say he "thinks an infinite plane would have finite mass"?

The exact words, thank you!

If you want to trawl through the incoherent ravings of mr Black then be my guest, you want it go find it.

You made the accusation so the onus is on you to provide evidence supporting your accusation.
So, "The exact words, thank you!".

This is a long discussion, if you really need to read something then go find it yourself.