A Request for levee.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2010, 04:24:45 PM »
Yet somehow levee has produced a map.

Not all of us are geniuses.

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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2010, 04:37:02 PM »
Yet somehow levee has produced a map.

Not all of us are geniuses.

Oh, wow. Tell me you didn't say that.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2010, 04:37:27 PM »
Fine; rather than use x height and y width, let's just use road lengths.  Those would be more practical, since we're talking about odometers.  This way, we don't need to worry about straight trajectories.
We still need to worry about some trajectories. They would still be subject to distortion if you swap around RE projections. It'd just be more difficult for me to draw in MS Paint, but the point would be the same.

...distortion means that the road lengths cannot be the same in both the RE and FE maps
Or between two different projections of the RE map, for that matter. Road lengths apply to the Mercator projection, which is inconsistent with said roads' shape. If you use another projection, with less distorted shapes, you won't have accurate lengths. RE maps suffer from distortion issues as well. An exception to that is the globe, but that strikes us with another issue. Did people use globes to navigate the Earth while sailing? In most cases, they used maps, which were, to some extent distorted. Therefore, pre-GPS measurements were more than likely not to be accurate.

Do you think you could skip the "conclusion: FE is impossible" bit? You post it ever so often, and usually the argument you use to reach the conclusion doesn't entitle you to write that part.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 04:42:20 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2010, 04:39:43 PM »
Yet somehow levee has produced a map.

Not all of us are geniuses.

Oh, wow. Tell me you didn't say that.

Why would I? That would be lying. I don't lie.

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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2010, 04:51:57 PM »
Are you lying now?
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2010, 04:54:56 PM »

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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2010, 05:03:37 PM »
So, maybe you're lying by that statement.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2010, 05:05:18 PM »
So, maybe you're lying by that statement.

Maybe your a fish!  :-X

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2010, 05:10:14 PM »
Catchpa, why do you insist to further derail this thread? Even though the original subject has been abandoned, we have managed to establish a valid discussion here. Perhaps I could interest you in participating instead of doing what you're doing?
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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2010, 05:12:29 PM »
Catchpa, why do you insist to further derail this thread? Even though the original subject has been abandoned, we have managed to establish a valid discussion here. Perhaps I could interest you in participating instead of doing what you're doing?

Perhaps you could. Perhaps you should tell the same thing to your flat earth Brother Pizza, who were the one who started the derailment.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2010, 05:16:00 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2010, 05:18:33 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.
I think him giving up was a way of admitting it. All in all, I think we have established that.

I'd rather discuss the possibility of making a FE map. Not HOW to make one, but existence of a possibility. I'm actually trying to get solid discussion on that topic, too.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 05:20:41 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2010, 05:22:45 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.
I think him giving up was a way of admitting it. All in all, I think we have established that.

Just because I gave up arguing with my brick wall, doesn't mean that I still can't get it to move.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2010, 05:25:48 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.
I think him giving up was a way of admitting it. All in all, I think we have established that.

Just because I gave up arguing with my brick wall, doesn't mean that I still can't get it to move.

If you move it it won't be a wall anymore.

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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2010, 05:28:34 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.
I think him giving up was a way of admitting it. All in all, I think we have established that.

Just because I gave up arguing with my brick wall, doesn't mean that I still can't get it to move.

If you move it it won't be a wall anymore.

Yes, it'll just be a wall somewhere else.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2010, 05:29:52 PM »
...distortion means that the road lengths cannot be the same in both the RE and FE maps
Or between two different projections of the RE map, for that matter. Road lengths apply to the Mercator projection, which is inconsistent with said roads' shape. If you use another projection, with less distorted shapes, you won't have accurate lengths. RE maps suffer from distortion issues as well. An exception to that is the globe, but that strikes us with another issue. Did people use globes to navigate the Earth while sailing? In most cases, they used maps, which were, to some extent distorted. Therefore, pre-GPS measurements were more than likely not to be accurate.

Do you think you could skip the "conclusion: FE is impossible" bit? You post it ever so often, and usually the argument you use to reach the conclusion doesn't entitle you to write that part.

I'm not talking about different projections of the RE map; I'm talking about the globe and road lengths.  Road lengths are the same, no matter what the shape of the Earth is, no matter what the type of map it is. 

It's time to understand that all projections of the globe are distorted(some more than others, and in different ways), which is why I do not reference them when I mention the RE map.  When I speak, RE map = globe = spherical.

And it doesn't matter what kind of distortion the 2d RE projections suffer from.  After reading all that, reconsider this (notes + remarks in italics):

Quote from: jackofhearts
We know the lengths of roads everywhere.  (confirmed through odometers)

The lengths of roads work in the RE map (globe), which is flawless.

Roads cannot be multiple lengths...

...distortion means that the road lengths cannot be the same in both the RE (globe) and FE maps

The roads in the RE map (globe) match the data we gather from odometers, as well as other means of measuring distances

Conslusion:  the RE map is the only possible map; FE is impossible.

Do you understand the point I'm trying to make now?

Trolling makes me angry.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2010, 05:30:53 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.
I think him giving up was a way of admitting it. All in all, I think we have established that.

Just because I gave up arguing with my brick wall, doesn't mean that I still can't get it to move.

If you move it it won't be a wall anymore.

Yes, it'll just be a wall somewhere else.

A wall is only a wall if it is walling something. If you somehow managed to remove a wall from your room, it would no longer be a wall.

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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2010, 05:34:25 PM »
a wall is always walling something unless you tear it down. Though if you only move a small part of the wall, it would be a very ineffective wall.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2010, 05:36:25 PM »
Back to something relevant, please?

Trolling makes me angry.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2010, 05:43:36 PM »
Considering the original topic shifted almost immediately from levee to making maps,derailing the thread, I think we can go back to the topic which at least had some solid discussion. Namely, jakeofhearts' blatant uses of the ad hominem fallacy.
I think him giving up was a way of admitting it. All in all, I think we have established that.

Just because I gave up arguing with my brick wall, doesn't mean that I still can't get it to move.
What the hell? It wasn't even you who gave up. It wasn't you who was accused of ad hominem. Are you admitting that you don't even know the content of this thread?

Back to something relevant, please?
I concur.

...distortion means that the road lengths cannot be the same in both the RE and FE maps
Or between two different projections of the RE map, for that matter. Road lengths apply to the Mercator projection, which is inconsistent with said roads' shape. If you use another projection, with less distorted shapes, you won't have accurate lengths. RE maps suffer from distortion issues as well. An exception to that is the globe, but that strikes us with another issue. Did people use globes to navigate the Earth while sailing? In most cases, they used maps, which were, to some extent distorted. Therefore, pre-GPS measurements were more than likely not to be accurate.

Do you think you could skip the "conclusion: FE is impossible" bit? You post it ever so often, and usually the argument you use to reach the conclusion doesn't entitle you to write that part.

I'm not talking about different projections of the RE map; I'm talking about the globe and road lengths.  Road lengths are the same, no matter what the shape of the Earth is, no matter what the type of map it is. 

It's time to understand that all projections of the globe are distorted(some more than others, and in different ways), which is why I do not reference them when I mention the RE map.  When I speak, RE map = globe = spherical.

And it doesn't matter what kind of distortion the 2d RE projections suffer from.  After reading all that, reconsider this (notes + remarks in italics):

Quote from: jackofhearts
We know the lengths of roads everywhere.  (confirmed through odometers)

The lengths of roads work in the RE map (globe), which is flawless.

Roads cannot be multiple lengths...

...distortion means that the road lengths cannot be the same in both the RE (globe) and FE maps

The roads in the RE map (globe) match the data we gather from odometers, as well as other means of measuring distances

Conslusion:  the RE map is the only possible map; FE is impossible.

Do you understand the point I'm trying to make now?
I understand your point, but I can't agree with it. Roads are designed on Mercator maps, because they are the simplest. That map is consistent with the measurements, but not the actual shapes, which would be crucial in the process of making a FE map. We'd need to know exactly how distorted the trajectory is. Additionally, a globe would be slightly off from that. Assuming a Round Earth, it's actually the maps that are off, but that doesn't change the original point. Distortion is an issue, hence the need for new, specifically designed, measurements. Otherwise we're as good as stating that the Mercator projection is consistent with itself and partially consistent with a globe, which proves nothing.
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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #80 on: June 16, 2010, 05:52:50 PM »
Listen: the shape/trajectory of the roads is irrelevant.  All we need to care about are the lengths of them.  Bearing that in mind, trying looking at my little proof again.

At this point, it's not really about using RE information, data, and statistics to form a FE map; it's that a FE map is not possible to make.

Trolling makes me angry.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2010, 05:58:52 PM »
Listen: the shape/trajectory of the roads is irrelevant.  All we need to care about are the lengths of them.  Bearing that in mind, trying looking at my little proof again.

At this point, it's not really about using RE information, data, and statistics to form a FE map; it's that a FE map is not possible to make.
It is very relevant. We cannot apply the data from RE to FE if we don't know the shape.
And no, what we have established so far is that:
1. A FE map is unlikely to be correct if it's made through distorting a RE map.
2. A FE map is probably not possible to be made based on RE measurements.

Do you have any evidence that a FE map is entirely impossible?
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Catchpa

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #82 on: June 16, 2010, 06:09:19 PM »
The fact that it hasn't be made is a pretty good proof.
The conspiracy do train attack-birds

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2010, 06:10:34 PM »
The fact that it hasn't been made is a pretty good proof.

So it is impossible to make a spaceship to fly to Mars (in the RE model) simply because it hasn't been done yet?

Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #84 on: June 16, 2010, 06:11:41 PM »
The fact that it hasn't been made is a pretty good proof.

So it is impossible to make a spaceship to fly to Mars (in the RE model) simply because it hasn't been done yet?

Don't derail this thread again.  Catchpa wasn't being literal, he was probably just saying that the absence of a FE map can be considered evidence for its impossibility. 

Trolling makes me angry.

Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2010, 06:12:53 PM »
Listen: the shape/trajectory of the roads is irrelevant.  All we need to care about are the lengths of them.  Bearing that in mind, trying looking at my little proof again.

At this point, it's not really about using RE information, data, and statistics to form a FE map; it's that a FE map is not possible to make.
It is very relevant. We cannot apply the data from RE to FE if we don't know the shape.
And no, what we have established so far is that:
1. A FE map is unlikely to be correct if it's made through distorting a RE map.
2. A FE map is probably not possible to be made based on RE measurements.

Do you have any evidence that a FE map is entirely impossible?

Hold that thought, I gotta sleep.  My last two finals are tomorrow, then I'd  be happy to further discuss this.

Trolling makes me angry.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2010, 06:18:47 PM »
The fact that it hasn't been made is a pretty good proof.

So it is impossible to make a spaceship to fly to Mars (in the RE model) simply because it hasn't been done yet?

Don't derail this thread again.  Catchpa wasn't being literal, he was probably just saying that the absence of a FE map can be considered evidence for its impossibility. 

I wasn't derailing it. I was responding that the absence of a Map at no point is evidence for it's impossibility.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2010, 06:19:46 PM »
Hold that thought, I gotta sleep.  My last two finals are tomorrow, then I'd  be happy to further discuss this.
Sure, good luck with those!

The fact that it hasn't been made is a pretty good proof.

So it is impossible to make a spaceship to fly to Mars (in the RE model) simply because it hasn't been done yet?

Don't derail this thread again.  Catchpa wasn't being literal, he was probably just saying that the absence of a FE map can be considered evidence for its impossibility.
That's what it literally means, and I think EnglishGentleman's point is a valid one. Just because something hasn't been made yet doesn't mean it can't be in the future. Otherwise, every modern invention could have been considered impossible in the past.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:22:47 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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Sliver

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2010, 08:54:24 PM »
Yet somehow levee has produced a map.
And he still ignores my simple request for latitude and longitude lines.  I guess he doesn't have much faith in his map.

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: A Request for levee.
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2010, 09:24:54 PM »
Yet somehow levee has produced a map.
And he still ignores my simple request for latitude and longitude lines.  I guess he doesn't have much faith in his map.

Sliver, unless your brand new to this place, you should know by now that Levee doesn't answer little peoples like you and me.