They've lied to the world about the stars

You are being the plaintiff/prosecution, bringing someone to trial, making grand claims about them, and then demanding they prove those claims are wrong.
The judge would laugh at you and dismiss the case.

You cannot be that stupid, really?

Their claims and those who support their claims are on trial, questioned and asked for proof of those claims, by the prosecutor. 

It’s a hearing, in court, where their claims need to show evidence for them as valid.

You’re the defendant for those claims, and are asked for proof of them in that court hearing.

I’m not claiming anything about those claims before the case begins. Nor did I claim anything about their claims before showing the evidence against them being valid or true.

You’re the one who must show evidence FOR these claims being valid and true, it starts with that, nothing beyond that is relevant yet.

You can’t ignore your responsibility to show evidence for their claims, it starts there, and you can’t try twisting it around on me.

I didn’t claim anything about their claims before looking into it, seeing their claims were made long ago, seeing there’s no evidence for them, seeing that their tekescope was scrapped long ago, for ever better telescopes.

We now have all sorts of evidence of what Saturn really looks like on many videos, the best quality ones in particular show there’s no distinct multiple belts on Saturn, that it’s in constant rapid motion, which makes it difficult to see anything in detail, as yet, anyway.

They told us it was motionless, by saying they saw a fixed feature on an edge of a belt. That they saw it had moved to other positions hours later, not seen at the time, because it was very slowly moving.

It’s more than what they claimed to see, it’s everything that doesn’t add up here.

We cannot even see any details clearly on Saturn with telescopes, because we always see it in motion. You can claim it’s not in motion at all, that it’s  due to atmospheric effects, or whatever. That means they wouldn’t see anything on Saturn better than we do, which isn’t much at all.

Anyone can see that Saturn is in constant motion, whether or not caused by an effect or not, doesn’t matter, they’d not see it motionless all the time if we never do!!

You seem to believe their claims need no proof at all, which is completely ridiculous.

I’m not the one who made claims about Saturn, not the one who needs evidence for those claims.

When I said their claims were proven false with all our evidence, and there’s none supporting them as true or valid, that’s what would happen first in court.

It’s up to YOU to show valid evidence for their claims, when you have none, their claims don’t mean squat.

The prosecutor is the one questioning the validity of their claims, asking you for evidence supporting them as valid.

Twisting it around because you have no evidence wouldnt wash in court.

The judge would ask you to show evidence of their claims, you saying it’s about my conclusion isn’t going to work at all.

Calling them liars is based on all the evidence, and is my view of it, and has nothing to do with the case at all, it’s my viewpoint on it, from the evidence we DO have of it.

The same as any court case, where the defendant is charged with a crime, with making false claims, and must prove he is innocent, made claims that were true, by showing proof of them being true claims in court!

When the defendant has no evidence of being innocent, making claims that were true, the judge would then see all the evidence proving those claims were falsehoods, and sentence him to prison, or some sort of punishment.

You’d be on trial to defend their claims, show evidence for their claims as true, as valid!

The court is where both sides present their evidence, and that’s where it all begins.

Saying to the judge you’ve got no evidence, but it’s not about their claims, it’s about the other side saying they are lies, although it’s not said yet, but it will be later on!!

This is my conclusion of their claims, from all the evidence of it, and I’m perfectly entitled to say my opinion on it, based on all the evidence we have here.

You cannot be that stupid, really?

No, I can't be stupid enough to fall for your crap.


YOU decided to bring up their claims.
YOU decided to accuse them of lying to everyone.
YOU decided to accuse them of being liars.

That makes YOU the prosecution/plaintiff, so the burden rests upon YOU!

Again, you don't get to just call people liars and then demand they prove they are not.
If you want to call them liars the burden of proof rests on you.

Their claims and those who support their claims are on trial, questioned and asked for proof of those claims, by the prosecutor.

And the judge then laughs at you, tells you to get out of their court and law how the law works before you come back; and dismissed the case due to lack of prosecution, not because you are kicked out but because you aren't trying to prosecute.

Like I said, you are like a deranged prosecutor who has decided someone is guilty, dragged them into court and now demand they prove their innocence and act like if they don't that means they are guilty.

Sane people realise that isn't how it works.
Sane people realise the prosecutor (i.e. you) is the one with the burden of proof who must prove their claims.

I’m not claiming anything about those claims before the case begins.

So you are now saying you are like a prosecutor, grabbing some random person off the street, and demanding they prove they are innocent.

showing the evidence against them being valid or true.

You are yet to present any evidence that shows they are not true.

You’re the one who must show evidence FOR these claims being valid and true, it starts with that, nothing beyond that is relevant yet.

Only to a deranged nutcase.
Again, sane people recognise the burden of proof is on the prosecutor.
That the accused (these people are accusing of lying) are presumed to be innocent until the prosecutor proves beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty.

But not crazy people like you.

But you know you have no chance of doing that, because your entire position is based upon wilful rejection of reality, so you make up whatever excuses you can think of to pretend you don't have a burden of proof.
Truly pathetic.

You can’t ignore your responsibility to show evidence for your claims, it starts there, and you can’t try twisting it around on me.

We now have all sorts of evidence of what Saturn really looks like on many videos

And far better than that, we have space probes, and photos of various sorts; none of which contradict their claims.

They told us it was motionless

No they didn't. That is your lie, where you need to so horribly twist what they say to ignore reality.
They no more said it was motionless as someone looking at a distant object sitting on the ground through a heat haze is called motionless.

It’s more than what they claimed to see, it’s everything that doesn’t add up here.

And you are yet to show a single example.

We cannot even see any details clearly on Saturn with telescopes

You mean with your cheap crap?

You seem to believe their claims need no proof at all, which is completely ridiculous.

No. I'm saying YOUR claims need proof.
We already have plenty of proof for their claims which you also dismiss as lies. All because it doesn't match your delusional fantasy.

I’m not the one who made claims about Saturn

Actually, you did. But because you couldn't justify it, you instead try to bring up these claims to shift the burden of proof.

When I said their claims were proven false with all our evidence

You actually need to show that to be the case, not just present crappy evidence which doesn't show anything meaningful.

The prosecutor is the one questioning the validity of their claims, asking you for evidence supporting them as valid.

No. The prosecutor is the one making the claim and trying to defend it. The defendant is the one questioning the validity of those claims and asking for evidence supporting it.

Just what kind of witch hunt do you think this is?

Twisting it around because you have no evidence wouldnt wash in court.
Again, the judge would kick you out of their court.

Calling them liars is based on all the evidence, and is my view of it

Sure, you "view" of it, where you reject a bunch of evidence you don't like, and ignore all the problems with it.
That really means it is based upon your view, not the actual evidence.

has nothing to do with the case at all

No, that is the entirety of the case.
You, the prosecutor, have accused these people (who are to be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt) of being liars.
So the burden is on you to prove they are.

The same as any court case, where the defendant is charged with a crime, with making false claims, and must prove he is innocent, made claims that were true, by showing proof of them being true claims in court!

Care to provide a single example of that utter crap?
Do you understand how the law works at all?

When the defendant has no evidence of being innocent

It doesn't matter at all, because what matters is the evidence the prosecution can present to show the defendant is guilty.


But this does basically sum up your position quite well, just shift the burden of proof, say they are guilty, and demand they prove they are innocent.

If you like I can even add more on:
Someone was found dead, you grabbed the first guy you could see and accused them of being the murderer.
They said they were at some club, so you got the footage from that club and it is too blurry to see them, so you say they are lying and demand they prove their innocence.
They get footage from a friend who recorded it on a cell phone, and you dismiss that as well, because they are liars and you have way to verify the footage.
You don't present any proof they are guilty, but act like because they don't have proof they are innocent, they must be guilty.

No sane person would ever accept that.

I’m perfectly entitled to say my opinion on it

And I'm perfectly entitled to call your opinion baseless garbage and challenge you on it, as it is based upon your wilful ignorance and rejecting evidence you don't like.

If you honestly think your approach is in any way rational or in any way like the legal system, then you are truly deranged and should seek psychiatric help before you hurt someone.

The best quality videos, show there is only one larger area in the orbs middle section, which is darker than the rest of the orb, show that Saturn is in constant and rapid rotation by its ever changing edges, among other things as well.

They show Saturn close enough to see this same feature, in various quality and clarity, closer and further out, but they all show much the same features and motion as the others do.

Images cannot show that it’s in motion, only videos can show it.

Videos show the edges changing shape over and over again rapidly and constantly. Images cannot show this, or not as clearly to see it at least.

The best quality videos

What videos?
So far the ones you have provided are not good enough to tell, and you have done nothing to show they would be good enough to tell.
None that you have provided show any motion of Saturn.

Continually asserting the same claims will not help you.
You need evidence and you need to discuss the challenges to that evidence rather than just ignore it.

They show Saturn close enough

Again, if you want to appeal to close, you need to appeal to space probes, not telescopes on Earth.

Videos show the edges changing shape over and over again

Just like videos of objects through a heat haze.
Likewise, just like videos of the moon when zoomed in to a comparable level show the edges of the craters "changing shape" over and over again.
You need to show it is the motion of the object, and not the atmosphere distorting the view, which you have made no attempt to do so.

Their claims are the issue, my view on their claims isn’t the issue, nor is anyone’s view on them the issue, those are viewpoints or opinions or accounts on the issue of their claims.

I’m certainly allowed to have my own view on it, say what I think of it, and we all have done that many times, on many issues.

Even you know and have done that before, give your view on issues, it’s not twisted around about what you said on the issues, that you are then the issue, by your view on it!

What exactly do you think I should’ve said about it?

You think that I shouldn’t say what all the evidence shows, because you think you can dismiss thousands of videos as crap, and you’re the authority here, who thinks nasa images are valid evidence, not confirmable as valid, no other sources of any sort, referred to them as having accurate results.

How stupid that is, but you don’t have a clue about it!!

My view of this issue, which is about their claims of Saturn, is entirely valid, in my opinion.

Most of all, their very specific detailed descriptions they made, that’s the kill shot.

Their claims are the issue

No. YOUR claims are.
YOU accused them of lying.
YOU are the "prosecutor" in this case.
So the burden rests on YOU!

YOU need to show evidence the are lying.
If you don't, then your claims that they are lying can be dismissed as the pathetic, desperate BS that they are.

I’m certainly allowed to have my own view on it, say what I think of it, and we all have done that many times, on many issues.

And I'm allowed to challenge you on those views, and ask you to justify them.
But you seem to want to make up whatever excuse you can to pretend you shouldn't even have to justify your views.

What exactly do you think I should’ve said about it?

I have already told you that. If you want it just focusing on their views, then you shouold have just said you don't think they are supported by evidence and gone from there.
But instead you decided to boldly proclaim they are lies.

Again, if you want to make it about their views, then admit you have basis to think they are lies, and admit you have every time you have claimed that they are proven to be lies.

You think that I shouldn’t say what all the evidence shows

That is another lie from you.
The evidence you have provided does not show they have lied.

dismiss thousands of videos as crap

I have not simply dismissed them. I have explained why they do not support your claim.

who thinks nasa images are valid evidence

Converse to the above, you have just dismissed everything from NASA.
There is no actual basis for you to reject it as independent evidence.
Instead, you use entirely circular reasoning, where you assume they are all just the same group of liars, with no justification at all, to say they aren't independent to say they are liars (i.e. your claim).

If you have evidence that showed they lied, then provide it. If you don't, stop claiming to have it and stop saying that your baseless belief is based upon evidence.

My view of this issue, which is about their claims of Saturn, is entirely valid, in my opinion.

Your entirely worthless opinion which is not based upon actual evidence or understanding of that evidence.

YOU need to show evidence the are lying.

True, @turbonium2 made a big claim, and failed to justify it sufficiently.

But instead you decided to boldly proclaim they are lies.

Claiming X Y Z is a lie without saying why is a fallacy.

You think that I shouldn’t say what all the evidence shows

not sure I'd call that evidence

who thinks nasa images are valid evidence

I know NASA, ESA, and other space agencies have valid evidence, merely because to spoof evidence so consistently requires more cooperation than would be reasonably possible.

If you have evidence that showed they lied, then provide it. If you don't, stop claiming to have it and stop saying that your baseless belief is based upon evidence.

I'm still waiting for @turbonium2's 'evidence' of their lies.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 05:01:02 AM

My view of this issue, which is about their claims of Saturn, is entirely valid, in my opinion.

Your entirely worthless opinion which is not based upon actual evidence or understanding of that evidence.

More like wishful thinking than structured opinion imo.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 03:13:30 AM

Their claims are the issue

No. YOUR claims are.
YOU accused them of lying.
YOU are the "prosecutor" in this case.
So the burden rests on YOU!

YOU need to show evidence the are lying.
If you don't, then your claims that they are lying can be dismissed as the pathetic, desperate BS that they are.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 03:13:30 AM

I’m certainly allowed to have my own view on it, say what I think of it, and we all have done that many times, on many issues.

And I'm allowed to challenge you on those views, and ask you to justify them.
But you seem to want to make up whatever excuse you can to pretend you shouldn't even have to justify your views.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 03:13:30 AM

What exactly do you think I should’ve said about it?

I have already told you that. If you want it just focusing on their views, then you shouold have just said you don't think they are supported by evidence and gone from there.
But instead you decided to boldly proclaim they are lies.

Again, if you want to make it about their views, then admit you have basis to think they are lies, and admit you have every time you have claimed that they are proven to be lies.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 03:13:30 AM

You think that I shouldn’t say what all the evidence shows

That is another lie from you.
The evidence you have provided does not show they have lied.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 03:13:30 AM

dismiss thousands of videos as crap

I have not simply dismissed them. I have explained why they do not support your claim.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 03:13:30 AM

who thinks nasa images are valid evidence

Converse to the above, you have just dismissed everything from NASA.
There is no actual basis for you to reject it as independent evidence.
Instead, you use entirely circular reasoning, where you assume they are all just the same group of liars, with no justification at all, to say they aren't independent to say they are liars (i.e. your claim).

If you have evidence that showed they lied, then provide it. If you don't, stop claiming to have it and stop saying that your baseless belief is based upon evidence.

Quote from: turbonium2 on April 18, 2025, 05:01:02 AM

My view of this issue, which is about their claims of Saturn, is entirely valid, in my opinion.

Your entirely worthless opinion which is not based upon actual evidence or understanding of that evidence.

Says our great authority of valid evidence, which is everything from NASA, who always speaks and shows truths, that stand as truths without any confirmation by others, except those within their group, that’s good enough!!

The genius of all arguments who suggests a far superior telescope to their scrapped junk failed to show any sort of indication that their multiple distinct belts actually exist on Saturn….

let alone seeing their edges, one partly parallel to one another, the other side being not parallel, with a most unique feature on one edge, they most miraculously found there, and further claimed they saw it fixed in position on Saturn. By pure chance,  they later saw that this unique feature had moved to another position on the edge of that one distinct belt on Saturn.

Our great genius thinks all these features they claimed to see, countless times over many years, must be the truth, after it’s taken over 200 years without a shred of  valid evidence.

Yes, we all believe it would all be revealed to see by eye, but the only known video taken through the worlds most powerful telescope of the day, which they have never scrapped as outdated or dismantled and put in a museum, because it is still a fine and usable instrument….

Somehow they never once filmed Saturn on a video, it took a visitor at the site to finally film Saturn through it close up, with their own iPhone, but if they knew they could film Saturn through the telescope, which is obviously a once in a lifetime opportunity, to take the very first, or first known to exist, footage of Saturn close up!

I don’t care about this bs excuse you spew out, that they haven’t once filmed Saturn through this telescope, because there’s no need to, taking images of Saturn through this telescope  are clearer and sharper than on any videos would be, and of course, everyone knows, because their claims of Saturn describe things they saw, such as a unique feature fixed in position, and later seen fixed at other positions on Saturn…

Even a complete moron would see they’re describing Saturn as a nearly motionless ‘planet’ which always is seen by eye or instrument as motionless, which cannot be the truth, since we’ve seen and filmed Saturn countless times already, with many instruments, but has never once been seen as motionless, as they claimed to see it all the time for years.

The excuse you have about how it’s all caused by effects of atmosphere and/or inferior instruments used, have nothing to do with us never once seeing it motionless by eye, on videos, not even once. 

They’d have to look at Saturn through the same atmosphere and same effects, but somehow they always saw it motionless, on clear nights, and also said it couldn’t be seen, or not clearly seen, some nights.

Never did any of them describe it appearing to be in motion from effects of atmosphere, which they certainly would mention, as it’s their observations of Saturn, what they saw of it, how it looked at the times…

No mention at all of Saturn in motion, appearing to be in motion, due to atmospheric  effect or distortion or whatever, they always said or indicated by their claims of seeing a unique and fixed in position feature, and claimed to see over and over again for years, and used it to time Saturns rotation accurately….

Why would anyone ever believe their claims, when we’ve now seen Saturn close up, seen on countless videos of Saturn close up, their claims of multiple distinct belts alone, before what they further claim to have ssen, clearly does not exist on Saturn, we always see the same features, on the better videos, in various degrees of clarity and quality.

We clearly can see your excuse of them all being crap is complete nonsense.

An iPhone is your last, most pathetic excuse for it, if you really think it’s an excuse, which is nothing but a joke…

If we cannot see anything EVEN CLOSE to what m they claimed to see all the time, on clear nights, on any of our videos, the best of which are clear enough to see there’s no multiple distinct belts, let alone the rest of their claims of much smaller features ithey described.

And only an idiot would ever try auch a stupid and backassed argument that first entirely ignores the issue presented and explained at length, which is the issue I presented to you and others here, and you can stop your bs about my view on it as being the issue, you had no frickin clue about their claims, until I brought them up AS the issue!

Saying I made the first claims or such bs, is just your pathetic effort to avoid the ACTUAL issue which you wouldn’t have a clue about if I didn’t bring them up.

Take your bs iPhone excuse as the last, and most pathetic effort among them all, because it certainly is, and we both know, you’ll never accept any evidence at all, because you’ll just claim it’s not clear or sharp enough, and degraded from being put online, and say it was about the atmospheric effects or conditions at the time they filmed it, or say that its only one video, we need many more taken through this same telescope with the same instruments at same settings, on different nights.

And if all that happened someday, you’d say they don’t all match up perfectly, or say they aren’t clear enough, say whatever bs excuse you think up, because that’s what you’ll always do, make up another bs excuse, it’s endless!

In the end, their claims are going to be seen and known by the world, as lies, among the countless other lies they’ve made up, and still make up.

Look again at the video taken by an iPhone. It matches up with the other videos of similar quality and clarity, and they wouldn’t match up like that, if they were all crappy, they’d look all different, less or more blurry, etc.

When they all match up to such a degree, using different instruments and in different conditions and so on, it’s obviously valid evidence.

This NASA crap is certainly not evidence, it’s not even close to it. Until you go up in ‘space’ and film Saturn on a video, not just take photos of it, they’re just saying it’s genuine images of a motionless Saturn we’ve always seen in motion….

There’s nothing more I can show you as evidence, but you just deny it is evidence, but NASA images are all valid evidence.

You’re a hopeless case, that’s your own choice, so be it

I've realized the stars are central.

I've realized the stars are central.

The sun is a star
Embrace the simplier (0,0,0) model

Somehow they never once filmed Saturn on a video,

 Buy a telescope and a cellphone camera adapter for the eyepiece.  Then capture video of Jupiter and its moons to video.  Then do the same for Saturn and its moons. Then post the videos and compare.

Then show how atmospheric disturbances and tripod shake aren’t a factor. 

 You act like Saturn is the only object in space. 

Says our great authority of valid evidence

Again, I haven't simply appealed to authority.
I have explained why.
I have explained what you can do to justify your claims, and you just ignore it.

Meanwhile, you do seem to want to be an authority, rejecting things just because they show you are wrong.


And yet again, because you can't justify your pathetic BS, you just go on rambling.

Even a complete moron would see they’re describing Saturn as a nearly motionless ‘planet’ which always is seen by eye or instrument as motionless

Not in the way you want to pretend.
We have been over this.

Someone looking at a "motionless" distant object through a heat haze, would still think of it as "motionless" even though the heat haze is distorting the view.
You are lying to everyone to pretend that a bit of atmospheric turbulence means they are lying.
It is truly pathetic.

They’d have to look at Saturn through the same atmosphere and same effects

With different instruments and directly with their eyes instead of through a camera. Most people realise the view through your eyes is much clearer than through a camera.

The atmosphere is not the same all over Earth and for all time.

e.g. in a city, you have large heat islands warming the air and causing more turbulence. Even more so with loads of people using air conditioning or heaters pumping out even more heat.
This is quite different to the much calmer atmosphere in the countryside.

Never did any of them describe it appearing to be in motion from effects of atmosphere

Instead, they described the seeing conditions, which sane people who know what they are talking about recognise is describing that.
But lying scum like you will continue to pretend to now know and continue to lie to everyone.

Why would anyone ever believe their claims

Why would anyone ever believe your claims?
Claims which you do whatever you can to avoid justifying?
Claims which you then need to repeatedly lie about to pretend are justified?

Again, quit with the BS, either provide the evidence, or admit you have lied every time you have claimed to have proven they lied.

Their claims of seeing things are proven as lies, the evidence is conclusive proof.

The greatest telescope on Earth back in the early 1900’s, that is still used today, would’ve been used to study and observe Saturn, and the other ‘planets’ and so on, like others would study them again and again, with better telescopes than they had back then.

Their claims of multiple distinct belts on Saturn, with a distinct feature fixed in position along one of these belts edges, was then used to time its very slow rotation!

That’s an amazing discovery, right?

Every future astronomer with ever greater telescopes would want to look at Saturn again and again, to see what they had seen back then, to see more details of Saturn, sharper and closer than they did!!

Everything is looked at again and again in future, studied further and further than before, that’s common sense and is always done that way.

When they first looked through a microscope over a century ago and saw bacterial life existed, they kept studying it further and further, with better microscopes, developed insulin as a cure for that bacterial life forms, and so forth.

If they really saw multiple distinct belts on Saturn over 200 years ago, we’d all have seen it, studied it again and again later on, and still study it today.

We’d certainly be able to see these multiple distinct rings with our telescopes today, and you know we’d see it through the far superior telescope used for a video of Saturn taken with an iPhone camera!

You’re actually suggesting that they’ve never filmed Saturn through that telescope before, or even taken images through it before, to show the world Saturns multiple distinct belts and a fixed feature on an edge of a belt?

Who believes that bs story? If their claims were true, that they really saw all this, it’d be looked at and studied further and further without any doubt at all in future, after they did it.

But over 200 years later on, nobody studied it again, nobody looked at those distinct multiple belts and a distinct fixed feature on an edge of one belt, there’s no documents on it at all!!

Now that we’ve seen and filmed Saturn close up, we know it’s all made up bs.

We’ve never seen Saturn motionless, you can call it an effect of atmosphere or distortion or whatever you want to, that’s how it’s always seen by us today, so that’s how they’d have seen it back then too!

They never could’ve seen Saturn as motionless, or appearing motionless, when we’ve never once seen it as motionless, over countless hours and years of observing it, filming it, and never will see it as motionless.

That alone is a lie. The rest is even worse bs than that is!

Their claims

I’m going to derail a thread just like you.  But it’s not a word salad.  It’s a few facts.

The sun on a flat earth would have to change size through the day as it changes distance from the viewer.  Especially if you want to invoke vanishing point for sunset where the sun would have to visibly shrink in apparent size all afternoon.

This is a time lapse video of the sun using the correct solar filter for a 80mm telescope.  The time lapse was done in three second intervals from about 9:30 am to 10:30 am.

Anyway, no evidence the visible sun changes dimensions to invoke vanishing point in the context of the sun.

4-24-25 sun time lapse 9:30 am to about 10:30 am

  The is a gif of the first few seconds of the video. 




Gif of the last few seconds of the video.



The sun started to drift out of frame from misalignment and / or motors not keeping up with the weight of the camera body.

I guess cheap tripod vs a 2,000 dollar tripod….


This proves the heliocentric model and shows FE fails to accurately predict the movement of the sun. 

Their claims of seeing things are proven as lies, the evidence is conclusive proof.

No, it is not. As explained to you repeatedly.

The greatest telescope on Earth back in the early 1900’s, that is still used today, would’ve been used to study and observe Saturn, and the other ‘planets’ and so on, like others would study them again and again, with better telescopes than they had back then.

And you are yet to show that isn't the case.

Every future astronomer with ever greater telescopes would want to look at Saturn again and again, to see what they had seen back then, to see more details of Saturn, sharper and closer than they did!!

No, they wouldn't.
Why would they?
Yet again you just assert crap with no justification.
Some would want to. Others would have other interests.

And on, if you want to see it closer you need either space telescopes or space probes.
More zoomed in is not the same as closer.

We’d certainly be able to see these multiple distinct rings with our telescopes today

Your cheap crap - no.
State of the art ones - yes, if the conditions to see it are right, and you aren't trying to then film it through a shitty phone camera which keeps on trying to autofocus.

You’re actually suggesting that they’ve never filmed Saturn through that telescope before, or even taken images through it before

Actually, that is what YOU are suggesting.
I have no idea what has been filmed or taken through that telescope.
But because you don't have the image/video, you just assume it must have never been taken.

But over 200 years later on, nobody studied it again

You have already had that shown to be a lie.
https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1910PA.....18..541W
https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1903PA.....11..443W

How many times are you planning on repeating these lies?

Now that we’ve seen and filmed Saturn close up

You mean not close up at all.
Instead with an incredibly shit telescope which can't resolve it; which you then need to lie about to pretend it is close; to intentionally mislead people.

That is how we know YOU are spouting BS.

Again, magnified does not mean close.

motionless

[We have been over this countless times.
They never said it was.

So yes, your statements like that are lies.
They have been exposed as lies before.
Yet you keep repeating them.
Another way we know your arguments are pure BS.

I’m sure they’d have many videos of Saturn through that same telescope by now, over a century later, with the best cameras available over the last century, and many images of Saturn too!!

It seems an iPhone camera took the very first video through that telescope, or certainly the only one we know of, anyway.

Not one video or image taken through the worlds greatest telescope of the last century, there should be countless videos and images taken through it over a century later, showing Saturn closer than ever, closer than those liars ever could come close to seeing Saturn!!

This defies all common sense and logic, if their claims about Saturn were legitimate and valid and true.

But it does make perfect sense that they’ve never shown us any videos or images taken through this greatest ever telescope, far superior to what they had then!

We shouldn’t need to have an iPhone camera take the first video of Saturn through this telescope, because there should be many many other videos of it, taken by all sorts of professional cameras!!

This issue could easily be settled forever, if we all could see and film Saturn with the best cameras through that very same telescope, over and over again, and everything we see, over and over again on many occasions, different times and conditions, would prove who of us is right.

Why would an iPhone camera be the first and only video of Saturn taken through this telescope? If there’s others of videos taken of Saturn through that same telescope, they’d have shown them to us, put them online, that’s for sure!

Only you would think their claims are valid and true, without any valid evidence.

We’ve already seen what Saturn looks like, taken many videos of Saturn, and we’ll keep taking more and more videos of Saturn, and keep seeing Saturn more and more.

What we’ve always seen and always shown on videos, in various degrees of quality, is valid evidence, showing their claims are falsehoods.

They created this story, from their biggest story of a ball Earth speeding through an endless space, which depicted other ball planets like Earth is, and one is Saturn, and they created an elaborate story for it.

At the time, and for centuries afterwards, and even today, though less and less than before, everyone believed their stories as true.

It’s clearly not believable anymore, it cannot hold up as true much longer.

They told us all the stars were trillions of miles away from Earth, and that they seemed to be twinkling but they’re not moving at all, it’s caused by an effect of our atmosphere.

But they also said there are some of them that aren’t stars, they are planets like Earth is, and they don’t always twinkle or ever twinkle like stars do.

I decided to look at their claims about Saturn, as an example case.

They told us what they saw, j but nobody else saw anything or could see it, or allowed to see it!

So what they always said to us, about Saturn, was that they saw it didn’t move at all, but they later found out it moved but very very slioely, and rotated like Earth does, but not as slowly as Earth does.

And that’s where they made up a very creative story for Saturn being another slowly rotating planet like Earth was made up before Saturn was told to be.

Nobody thinks of Saturn as moving at all. They said it wasn’t moving at all whenever they saw it for many years, studying it.

Observations are what is seen, what is not seen, what is partly seen, how everything looks to see of Saturn or any subject of study.

That’s the very first thing that I’ve seen, and everyone else has seen, looking at Saturn or seeing it on videos - it’s always in motion, or appears to be in motion, but is certainly never seen as motionless at all.

We’ve seen it for many years and night after night, everywhere on Earth almost.

If you say it’s caused by an effect of atmosphere, it would still not be seen as motionless by them either.

Their whole story is of Saturn being motionless, in everything they describe about seeing on Saturn.

They describe all sorts of detailed features of what they ‘saw’ and found out.

That’s clearly bs. We never see it motionless at all. No way they ever did either. For years? Get serious!

We’ve never seen Saturn once as they claimed to see all the time.

Their claims aren’t based on reality, they’re complete bs.

Show me Saturn as motionless, if you believe that bs is not made up bs

We’ve never seen Saturn once as they claimed to see all the time.

Their claims aren’t based on reality, they’re complete bs.

Show me Saturn as motionless, if you believe that bs is not made up bs

I’m going to derail a thread just like you.  But it’s not a word salad.  It’s a few facts.

The sun on a flat earth would have to change size through the day as it changes distance from the viewer.  Especially if you want to invoke vanishing point for sunset where the sun would have to visibly shrink in apparent size all afternoon.

This is a time lapse video of the sun using the correct solar filter for a 80mm telescope.  The time lapse was done in three second intervals from about 9:30 am to 10:30 am.

Anyway, no evidence the visible sun changes dimensions to invoke vanishing point in the context of the sun.

4-24-25 sun time lapse 9:30 am to about 10:30 am

  The is a gif of the first few seconds of the video. 




Gif of the last few seconds of the video.



The sun started to drift out of frame from misalignment and / or motors not keeping up with the weight of the camera body.

I guess cheap tripod vs a 2,000 dollar tripod….


This proves the heliocentric model and shows FE fails to accurately predict the movement of the sun.

Only you would think their claims are valid and true, without any valid evidence.

We’ve already seen what Saturn looks like, taken many videos of Saturn, and we’ll keep taking more and more videos of Saturn, and keep seeing Saturn more and more.

What we’ve always seen and always shown on videos, in various degrees of quality, is valid evidence, showing their claims are falsehoods.

They created this story, from their biggest story of a ball Earth speeding through an endless space, which depicted other ball planets like Earth is, and one is Saturn, and they created an elaborate story for it.

At the time, and for centuries afterwards, and even today, though less and less than before, everyone believed their stories as true.

It’s clearly not believable anymore, it cannot hold up as true much longer.

They told us all the stars were trillions of miles away from Earth, and that they seemed to be twinkling but they’re not moving at all, it’s caused by an effect of our atmosphere.

But they also said there are some of them that aren’t stars, they are planets like Earth is, and they don’t always twinkle or ever twinkle like stars do.

I decided to look at their claims about Saturn, as an example case.

They told us what they saw, j but nobody else saw anything or could see it, or allowed to see it!

So what they always said to us, about Saturn, was that they saw it didn’t move at all, but they later found out it moved but very very slioely, and rotated like Earth does, but not as slowly as Earth does.

And that’s where they made up a very creative story for Saturn being another slowly rotating planet like Earth was made up before Saturn was told to be.

Nobody thinks of Saturn as moving at all. They said it wasn’t moving at all whenever they saw it for many years, studying it.

Observations are what is seen, what is not seen, what is partly seen, how everything looks to see of Saturn or any subject of study.

That’s the very first thing that I’ve seen, and everyone else has seen, looking at Saturn or seeing it on videos - it’s always in motion, or appears to be in motion, but is certainly never seen as motionless at all.

We’ve seen it for many years and night after night, everywhere on Earth almost.

If you say it’s caused by an effect of atmosphere, it would still not be seen as motionless by them either.

Their whole story is of Saturn being motionless, in everything they describe about seeing on Saturn.

They describe all sorts of detailed features of what they ‘saw’ and found out.

That’s clearly bs. We never see it motionless at all. No way they ever did either. For years? Get serious!

LOL! You act like you have all the astronomers notes on hand when talking about their observations.

You couldn't possibly. You haven't done your research in this, or the flat earth department, which is why your arguments get walked all over and spat on.

I’m sure they’d have many videos of Saturn through that same telescope by now

And I don't give a damn if you are sure.
You have no basis for it.
If you think they would, then provide these many videos.
Otherwise, you are just appealing to your hopes and dreams.

But it does make perfect sense that they’ve never shown us any videos or images taken through this greatest ever telescope, far superior to what they had then!

Why?
Just think about your BS line of reasoning.
Why would it make a difference at all?

Again, you are appealing to your hopes and dreams.

This issue could easily be settled forever

Yet you refuse to.
Because you want to appeal to your wilful ignorance to pretend people are lying.

Again, nothing is stopping you from buying your own telescope vastly superior to what they had, and putting in a location with a good atmosphere to prevent distortion, and filming Saturn for ages.

Only you would think their claims are valid and true, without any valid evidence.

I'm making no statement about their claims.
I am rejecting YOUR claims.

We’ve already seen what Saturn looks like

Through a turbulent atmosphere, distorting the view; typically with cheap crappy telescopes or just a camera, or through a crappy iphone camera which kept trying to autofocus; makign it incomparable to what they saw and entirely useless for proving they lied.

You have nothing to show they lied.
And you need to appeal to such a convoluted fantasy to pretend your complete absence of reasoning makes sense.

They said it wasn’t moving at all whenever they saw it for many years, studying it.

WHERE?
You have repeated this claim many times, but are yet to prove it.
Your only attempt to do so to date in any serious way was shown to be you lying to everyone.

That’s the very first thing that I’ve seen, and everyone else has seen, looking at Saturn or seeing it on videos - it’s always in motion, or appears to be in motion, but is certainly never seen as motionless at all.

It appears like an object through a heat haze.
That is not the object itself being in motion.

Their whole story is of Saturn being motionless

You mean YOUR story of them claiming to see it motionless?
Your story which you can't substantiate at all?

Yet you want to pretend other people are liars.