A question aimed at pro-lifers

Now you are ascribing characteristics to fetuses that they do not possess again. Stop it.

Now you are ascribing characteristics to fetuses that they do not possess again. Stop it.

You are striping characteristics from children. Stop it.

What characteristics am I taking away, then?

What characteristics am I taking away, then?

The ones you claimed he was ascribing.

Fine, just as long as it is in agreement that a full term child at 40 weeks is also a fetus before it has been born because that is also the definition.  And in that case as long as it is still a "fetus" you are ok with it being aborted.

Personally, I'm actually okay with the death of anyone. In the case of abortion though, I believe that until a fetus is its own separate entity (umbilical cord cut), it does not deserve rights as an individual human, because it's not an individual.

Well saying someone must stop at stop signs and drive the speed limit is authoritarian and hypocritical as well.

Yes, it's authoritarian. No it's not hypocritical. I'm calling your stance hypocritical because just as a fertilized egg contributes to a potential human, so does sperm. For someone who is pro-life, all sperm should then be kept viable. Anyone who destroys any sperm is a murderer.

Again changing the terminology,  and again using a quote for "House".  Now that you changed the term from baby, to parasitic entity.  I am getting dizzy from the circles your speaking in.

I haven't changed terminology, I simply cite similarities and equivalencies. And it wasn't from House. I came up with this stuff in high school (as have many people), long before House ever became an idea for a show.

Nope, I was just going off what you feel and  as YOU stated in YOUR Quote in the last thread, it seems that you think THIS  since you provided me with those stipulations.  YOU stated that YOU feel that they cannot think, see , feel or choese something and I provided you proof that they do at 23 weeks.  I like how you cut the quote off to serve your need,  Next time you quote someone, you should provide the entire quote because that was as direct quote from you.  This is getting funny.   Please re-read the last 2 threads so you can rememer what your beliefs are.

I've stated my beliefs in the first reply above.

Arbitrary?  Last I heard, each only have 23 chromosomes.  That to is a fact so you may want to consider that as you, and I quote "simply use definitions and facts to make conclusions and choices."

It's arbitrary in that you make chromosomes the basis for being a human versus countless other things.

And you are missing the point also.  Killing someone due to a change its terminology, no matter what it is, is killing someone.

I said you can call it killing someone, I just like using the most accurate word to describe this "someone." Calling it a person and applying rights is just an appeal to emotion, rather than a valid argument.

Quote from: Wendy on November 28, 2008, 10:08:56 AM

What characteristics am I taking away, then?

The ones you claimed he was ascribing.

Wow. You truly are an idiot. You don't even know what I'm talking about, and you still disagree with me. You might just as well leave if you don't even listen to the other side of the debate.

Bravo. Your lack of wit fails both to amuse and surprise me. At least I read your posts before I take a stance against your moronic views.

I suffer in silence.

Now you are ascribing characteristics to fetuses that they do not possess again. Stop it.

Don't want to burst your bubble but those are factual characteristics.  Go to a NICU as I have.

You were born early?

Quote from: Wendy on November 28, 2008, 10:04:47 AM

Now you are ascribing characteristics to fetuses that they do not possess again. Stop it.

Don't want to burst your bubble but those are factual characteristics.  Go to a NICU as I have.

Premature baby != Fetus

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 09:57:52 AM

Fine, just as long as it is in agreement that a full term child at 40 weeks is also a fetus before it has been born because that is also the definition.  And in that case as long as it is still a "fetus" you are ok with it being aborted.

Personally, I'm actually okay with the death of anyone. In the case of abortion though, I believe that until a fetus is its own separate entity (umbilical cord cut), it does not deserve rights as an individual human, because it's not an individual.

ok then that is your belief.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 09:57:52 AM

Well saying someone must stop at stop signs and drive the speed limit is authoritarian and hypocritical as well.

Yes, it's authoritarian. No it's not hypocritical. I'm calling your stance hypocritical because just as a fertilized egg contributes to a potential human, so does sperm. For someone who is pro-life, all sperm should then be kept viable. Anyone who destroys any sperm is a murderer.

nope its seems it is your opinion that that is what a pro-life person thinks.  And again you are falling away from your fact finding to draw conclusions and only going by YOUR opionions.  I can see that this string is totally based on your opinion rather the fact.  Again I'm ok with that as long as you admit it is your opinion.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 09:57:52 AM

Again changing the terminology,  and again using a quote for "House".  Now that you changed the term from baby, to parasitic entity.  I am getting dizzy from the circles your speaking in.

I haven't changed terminology, I simply cite similarities and equivalencies. And it wasn't from House. I came up with this stuff in high school (as have many people), long before House ever became an idea for a show.

Again another change in terminology to discribe your change in terminology.  Another full circle.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 09:57:52 AM

Nope, I was just going off what you feel and  as YOU stated in YOUR Quote in the last thread, it seems that you think THIS  since you provided me with those stipulations.  YOU stated that YOU feel that they cannot think, see , feel or choese something and I provided you proof that they do at 23 weeks.  I like how you cut the quote off to serve your need,  Next time you quote someone, you should provide the entire quote because that was as direct quote from you.  This is getting funny.   Please re-read the last 2 threads so you can rememer what your beliefs are.

I've stated my beliefs in the first reply above.

'nuff said thus proving my point

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 01:51:56 AM

Arbitrary?  Last I heard, each only have 23 chromosomes.  That to is a fact so you may want to consider that as you, and I quote "simply use definitions and facts to make conclusions and choices."

It's arbitrary in that you make chromosomes the basis for being a human versus countless other things.

Ok find me a human that has only 23 chromosomes, or a human cell that begins to divide with only 23 chromosomes

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 01:51:56 AM

And you are missing the point also.  Killing someone due to a change its terminology, no matter what it is, is killing someone.

I said you can call it killing someone, I just like using the most accurate word to describe this "someone." Calling it a person and applying rights is just an appeal to emotion, rather than a valid argument.

Calling it the most accurate word to describe this "someone" is again, based on your opinion instead of fact.  

You were born early?

No my 1st daughter was born at 23 weeks gestation and my second daughter was born at 30 weeks gestation.

Whoah. That is rather early. Anyway, can you name a fetus who is a person?

Quote from: Wendy on November 28, 2008, 10:49:16 AM

You were born early?

No my 1st daughter was born at 23 weeks gestation and my second daughter was born at 30 weeks gestation.

Due to the bolded parts, they were no longer foetuses.

sure, both my daughers were.  My oldest who is now in second grade actually has slight memories of being in the hospital.  That sounds hard to believe but it is actually quite common.   Now you can see my view.  I cannot speak for a fetus born before 23 weeks but I have absolutely no doubt that a 23 weeker is a fully developed human.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: Wendy on November 28, 2008, 10:49:16 AM

You were born early?

No my 1st daughter was born at 23 weeks gestation and my second daughter was born at 30 weeks gestation.

Due to the bolded parts, they were no longer foetuses.

Again opinion, and based on how this entire string started, the question was asked if you would save a trey full of fetus'  well I guess they were not fetus' since they were born also. 

sure, both my daughers were.  My oldest who is now in second grade actually has slight memories of being in the hospital.  That sounds hard to believe but it is actually quite common.   Now you can see my view.  I cannot speak for a fetus born before 23 weeks but I have absolutely no doubt that a 23 weeker is a fully developed human.

Human development ends after 23 weeks in the womb? I was under the impression people continued growing until about their late teens.

Quote from: General Douchebag on November 28, 2008, 11:13:14 AM

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: Wendy on November 28, 2008, 10:49:16 AM

You were born early?

No my 1st daughter was born at 23 weeks gestation and my second daughter was born at 30 weeks gestation.

Due to the bolded parts, they were no longer foetuses.

Again opinion, and based on how this entire string started, the question was asked if you would save a trey full of fetus'  well I guess they were not fetus' since they were born also. 

The question was poorly worded. The concept is what matters here.

"A fetus (or foetus or f?tus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth."

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 11:15:13 AM

sure, both my daughers were.  My oldest who is now in second grade actually has slight memories of being in the hospital.  That sounds hard to believe but it is actually quite common.   Now you can see my view.  I cannot speak for a fetus born before 23 weeks but I have absolutely no doubt that a 23 weeker is a fully developed human.

Human development ends after 23 weeks in the womb? I was under the impression people continued growing until about their late teens.

Fully developed human
That has to be one of the dumbest questions I've heard but I'll play along with it.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 11:18:01 AM

Quote from: General Douchebag on November 28, 2008, 11:13:14 AM

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: Wendy on November 28, 2008, 10:49:16 AM

You were born early?

No my 1st daughter was born at 23 weeks gestation and my second daughter was born at 30 weeks gestation.

Due to the bolded parts, they were no longer foetuses.

Again opinion, and based on how this entire string started, the question was asked if you would save a trey full of fetus'  well I guess they were not fetus' since they were born also. 

The question was poorly worded. The concept is what matters here.

"A fetus (or foetus or f?tus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth."

Thank you, I already posted the exact example 2 pages ago.
So whats your point other then dragging this along. before you answer please go back to page 2 to complete the circle you are attempting to start.

You said the defining fetus was a matter of opinion. 

Quote from: General Douchebag on November 28, 2008, 11:13:14 AM

Due to the bolded parts, they were no longer foetuses.

Again opinion[...]

You said the defining fetus was a matter of opinion. 

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 28, 2008, 11:18:01 AM

Quote from: General Douchebag on November 28, 2008, 11:13:14 AM

Due to the bolded parts, they were no longer foetuses.

Again opinion[...]

in that quote it was his opinion.  so

Wait.. It was his opinion, that because your daughters were born they were no longer fetuses? That sounds like a factual analysis to me.

Ignore dark knight. He's just a troll.

ok then that is your belief.

Sure, which are backed by factual definitions. To deny my beliefs is to deny those factual definitions.

nope its seems it is your opinion that that is what a pro-life person thinks.

It's not my opinion, that's how logic works. Either you don't think all potential life is sacred, or you do. This isn't a buffet. Picking and choosing conditions is illogical and you're just wasting everyone's time here.

Again another change in terminology to discribe your change in terminology.  Another full circle.

I haven't changed anything...perhaps reading would help you.

Ok find me a human that has only 23 chromosomes, or a human cell that begins to divide with only 23 chromosomes

Find me a human that wasn't attached to someone else in its first week.

Calling it the most accurate word to describe this "someone" is again, based on your opinion instead of fact.  

Nope, factual definitions are used.

I'm gonna be with Wendy on this one. No one can be this stupid, you must be a troll. I probably will not reply further.

Ignore dark knight. He's just a troll.

Thank you thank you thank you. 
 

If your goal is not to engage in serious discussion, then yes, I would consider it a win as well.

If your goal is not to engage in serious discussion, then yes, I would consider it a win as well.

Umm that was a serious discussion,  and I am being called a troll.  The guy busts out with "well I believe" in his answer, I come back with "thats your opionion"  And I am called a troll.  Whatever.  You as well as anybody knows that once the name calling begins, that is usually when that person is at their wits end.  Actually I was in the process of editing my remark to you because you have been cool with the discussion.  the others were just coming up with answers that had no direction but their personal beliefs and then in the same sentence they state it as fact.  At least I give my source and explain my reason for why I call something fact and something belief.  Basiclly disagreeing just to disagree.   

Quote from: Wendy on December 01, 2008, 07:56:53 AM

If your goal is not to engage in serious discussion, then yes, I would consider it a win as well.

Umm that was a serious discussion,  and I am being called a troll.  The guy busts out with "well I believe" in his answer, I come back with "thats your opionion"  And I am called a troll.  Whatever.  You as well as anybody knows that once the name calling begins, that is usually when that person is at their wits end.  Actually I was in the process of editing my remark to you because you have been cool with the discussion.  the others were just coming up with answers that had no direction but their personal beliefs and then in the same sentence they state it as fact.  At least I give my source and explain my reason for why I call something fact and something belief.  Basiclly disagreeing just to disagree.   

All of your answers (at least on that I've read in this thread, feel free to provide examples if I'm wrong) have been closed, killing instead of perpetuating the debate. Replying with "that's your opinion" is pretty much like saying " fuck it, I'm done debating" around these parts. And you did, and were called on it. Saying agree to disagree is a copout too. This section is called religion and philosohpy not fact and definitive. Philosophy is personal belief, disregarding it is counterproductive to the discussion.

But that's just my opinion