FE and Deism

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2011, 11:01:41 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe.
If things didn't work then that form of life wouldn't exist.

And you know this how? Because you torture water creatures for a hobby? Does the phrase "its life Jim, but not as we know it" ring any bells?
You said yourself imagine a universe in which things didn't work. Obviously life would not exist then.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2011, 11:04:24 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe.
If things didn't work then that form of life wouldn't exist.

And you know this how? Because you torture water creatures for a hobby? Does the phrase "its life Jim, but not as we know it" ring any bells?
You said yourself imagine a universe in which things didn't work. Obviously life would not exist then.

Yup.  As I said, absurdity upon absurdity.  First we must imagine something we have no reason to believe exists in any way shape or form, then we are to imagine something impossible happening in that universe.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2011, 11:06:33 AM »
What are the chances of everything just being right for the universe to 'be', by fluke?
So close to 0 that the difference cannot be represented by numbers. The difference between 0 and that number is your margin for doubt. There is nothing with less doubt, that you can imagine.
So without doubt it cannot be a fluke. Ergo, it was designed.

If you want to argue there is that doubt, based on that tiny probability, never before have you grasped so far for some straws.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2011, 11:10:56 AM »
It's funny.  Thork needed only use what we're able to observe in the universe around us to formulate his opinion that some kind of God is likely to exist.  You had to compound absurdity upon absurdity before indulging in pure speculation about the number of universes that might exist in total in order to counter it.  And yet for some reason your explanation is regarded by people such as yourself as the more scientific one... it's amazing to me that atheists puff out their chests like they're the ones with the open minds, yet when presented with solid reasoning to believe in God they seem to feel it necessary to just make stuff up when trying to refute it.

Are you a "hard" atheist or a "soft" atheist, Skeleton?

Er... where did I say I was an atheist? Believe it or not it is perfectly possible to believe in a deity without belief in intelligent design.
BTW your use of the word "absurdity" in your post is very similar to Thorks use of the word "perfect". You view something as "absurd" because it is very far from what you know. This does not in any way make it less possible. Rin112 understood my post perfectly, whereas you misinterpreted it as a post saying "if this condition and that condition and the other condition were met in circumstance X then event Y would result". What you describe as absurdities in my post are not layers of assumptions needing to be met. They are just descriptive background to paint a picture.
Imagine a different "non perfect" universe any way you want, my point still stands. We see the universe as perfect because if it wasnt, we could not see it. You need to almost literally think outside the box.* I would suggest reading up on some basic philosophical concepts, this book is a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_World

*"box" in this sense is a metaphor for the universe we live in.**


**for the benefit of Thork and RTT.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2011, 11:14:47 AM »
But I have always thought that the universe cannot be a fluke. Its just too perfect, everything works. The complexity required and having everything just right. The odds are unfathomable. And I am very good at applied maths.
Imagine a universe which was NOT perfect, in which things didnt work. Imagine that in some way, a form of intelligent life was able to evolve in this universe.
If things didn't work then that form of life wouldn't exist.

And you know this how? Because you torture water creatures for a hobby? Does the phrase "its life Jim, but not as we know it" ring any bells?

And now you use science-fiction to support your point?  ???

Your use of the  ??? emoticon and your pretend inability to understand the reason I used that quote just creates the perception of a dimwit rather than a deep thinker. Just so you know.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2011, 11:21:08 AM »
What are the chances of everything just being right for the universe to 'be', by fluke?
So close to 0 that the difference cannot be represented by numbers. The difference between 0 and that number is your margin for doubt. There is nothing with less doubt, that you can imagine.
So without doubt it cannot be a fluke. Ergo, it was designed.

If you want to argue there is that doubt, based on that tiny probability, never before have you grasped so far for some straws.

I love the way you make vast sweeping assumptions about the probability of other universes with different physics existing, or the probability that ours might have been different, like you have data on it or something, like you know how it can be measured or detected. What are you, Michio bloody Kaku? Stephen "Dubya" Hawking? No, youre a pretend pilot on an internet troll board claiming he knows what the probability of other universes existing is, and that he knows what the conditions in those universes would be. I can give you more rope if you need it?*

*"rope" is a metaphor in this context, I am not suggesting other universes need rope to describe them or make their physics work.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2011, 11:30:54 AM »
Who says there are any other universes? That's a vast and sweeping assumption. We only know about this one and they would all need to differ from each other in every single way possible.

To discount my argument you just invented more universes than our own universe has atoms.
You can play probability games and thought experiments to find ways it might not be true, but that's not a hunt for the truth. Its a way to run away from it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 11:34:55 AM by Thork »

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thefireproofmatch

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2011, 01:27:43 PM »
I believe this is relevant to this conversation:


The other day I was watching the cars go by, and i saw something extraordinary! A car with a license plate E21R 65HH! Can you believe that! Out of all the license plate combinations in the world, it was this one! The universe is truly exceptional.
we're expected to throw up our hands and just BELIEVE.

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2011, 01:52:27 PM »
The other day I was watching the cars go by, and i saw something extraordinary! A car with a license plate E21R 65HH! Can you believe that! Out of all the license plate combinations in the world, it was this one! The universe is truly exceptional.

???

  • I know there to be other cars.
  • I know number plates vary. 
  • The cars very existence does not depend on the number plate
  • The car with the registration F43T 34ER can exist as well as will all cars with all registrations
  • The odds of you seeing that car on that day were massive compared to the odds of the universe existing. It is almost a dead cert you would see that car on that day, by comparison.
  • Someone designed that car anyway. It is not a fluke.
  • You just made that up. The universe is not made up.

Also because you must have missed it:
To discount my argument you just invented more universes than our own universe has atoms.
You can play probability games and thought experiments to find ways it might not be true, but that's not a hunt for the truth. Its a way to run away from it.

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thefireproofmatch

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2011, 01:58:26 PM »
The other day I was watching the cars go by, and i saw something extraordinary! A car with a license plate E21R 65HH! Can you believe that! Out of all the license plate combinations in the world, it was this one! The universe is truly exceptional.

You just made that up.


Incorrect. Richard Feynman did.
we're expected to throw up our hands and just BELIEVE.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2011, 01:58:40 PM »
Who says there are any other universes? That's a vast and sweeping assumption. We only know about this one and they would all need to differ from each other in every single way possible.

To discount my argument you just invented more universes than our own universe has atoms.
You can play probability games and thought experiments to find ways it might not be true, but that's not a hunt for the truth. Its a way to run away from it.

Lol. Complete understanding failure. All your posts suggest you have skim read mine with your brain still in idle gear and have not put a moments thought in, because you assume (wrongly) that you know what Im going to say and why I say it. Dont second guess me, Thork. As I have said before, I am always several steps ahead of you. Your post here is completely irrelevant to anything I have said.
Just so you know, if there IS a God, He isnt going to let you in to heaven.
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2011, 02:00:05 PM »
The universe is not made up.


The real universe isnt. The one with a flat earth in it is.  8)
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2011, 02:12:48 PM »
Er... where did I say I was an atheist? Believe it or not it is perfectly possible to believe in a deity without belief in intelligent design.

Interesting.  On what grounds, exactly?

Quote
BTW your use of the word "absurdity" in your post is very similar to Thorks use of the word "perfect". You view something as "absurd" because it is very far from what you know.

No, in this case I view something as "absurd" because it has no bearing whatsoever on what happens in the real world.

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This does not in any way make it less possible.

Whether or not it's possible is irrelevant; I take issue with the fact that it is fabricated and unrealistic.

Quote
Rin112 understood my post perfectly, whereas you misinterpreted it as a post saying "if this condition and that condition and the other condition were met in circumstance X then event Y would result". What you describe as absurdities in my post are not layers of assumptions needing to be met. They are just descriptive background to paint a picture.
Imagine a different "non perfect" universe any way you want, my point still stands. We see the universe as perfect because if it wasnt, we could not see it. You need to almost literally think outside the box.* I would suggest reading up on some basic philosophical concepts, this book is a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie's_World

*"box" in this sense is a metaphor for the universe we live in.**

I would argue that you need to literally think outside the box to see why God is a purely rational concept, since it is so ingrained in modern science to reject it due to lack of physical evidence. 

Your use of the  ??? emoticon and your pretend inability to understand the reason I used that quote just creates the perception of a dimwit rather than a deep thinker. Just so you know.

Sorry, I just find your constant use of fiction to support arguments relating to the real world to be amusing.  Perhaps in Star Trek such life exists, but all but the most ardent and deluded Trekkies will understand that what happens in Star Trek doesn't represent what happens in the real world.

Just so you know, if there IS a God, He isnt going to let you in to heaven.

Obviously Thork is not positing the existence of a personal God who decides whether people go to Heaven or Hell; such an entity cannot be demonstrated to logically exist.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2011, 02:16:33 PM »
Lol. Complete understanding failure. All your posts suggest you have skim read mine with your brain still in idle gear and have not put a moments thought in, because you assume (wrongly) that you know what Im going to say and why I say it. Dont second guess me, Thork. As I have said before, I am always several steps ahead of you. Your post here is completely irrelevant to anything I have said.
Just so you know, if there IS a God, He isnt going to let you in to heaven.

Where to start. I suppose by pointing out that there is no rebuttal of any kind in your post.

Lol. Complete understanding failure. All your posts suggest you have skim read mine with your brain still in idle gear and have not put a moments thought in,

Your last post read ...
I love the way you make vast sweeping assumptions about the probability of other universes with different physics existing, or the probability that ours might have been different, like you have data on it or something, like you know how it can be measured or detected. What are you, Michio bloody Kaku? Stephen "Dubya" Hawking? No, youre a pretend pilot on an internet troll board claiming he knows what the probability of other universes existing is, and that he knows what the conditions in those universes would be. I can give you more rope if you need it?*

*"rope" is a metaphor in this context, I am not suggesting other universes need rope to describe them or make their physics work.
of which only the red bit is relevant to the thread and only an opinion at that.

As I have said before, I am always several steps ahead of you.
You say a lot of things.  ::)

Your post here is completely irrelevant to anything I have said.
Your last post didn't have any content to comment on. Just an opinion that you love the way I make vast and sweeping assumptions. I love the smell of bacon. Its not really relevant to FE or Deism.

Just so you know, if there IS a God, He isnt going to let you in to heaven.
I'm a Deist. I don't believe in heaven.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2011, 05:35:10 PM »
But the fact that we, beings who are able to observe and catalogue and try to understand and appreciate this imperfect yet just right universe, exist as a result of this universe's laws is evidence in itself that there was a Creator who intended that to be.
Let's take that sentence apart.
The fact that we, [appositive], exist as a result of this universe's laws is evidence in itself that there was a Creator who intended that to be.
I disagree; that does not in any way fall under the category of what I consider evidence for a creator.
This imperfect yet just right universe? That sounds contradictory, and our ability to observe and catalogue things is not compelling evidence of a creator (to me).

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2011, 08:47:21 AM »
Ok, here's the bit i'm struggling to get my head around - if there is no Heaven, where does the Creator live? - is he still alive?, is he just observing the world and all that he created, without interferring, and if so, does he not have emotions?, how is he comprehending and allowing all the pain and distruction that is happening on this world right now? Or did he create the world and at some piont has died?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not slating Diety at all - i cetainly don't believe all that is on this world, just happened by accident, or by the big bang. Have you ever watched a spider create a  web? - i have, its fascinating - a simple creature creating something so perfect as a web, the skill that went into creating it is just outstanding - humans could create a web, but no doubt, would of plotted it out on AutoCad and then use all manner of tools and a lot of time and effort to get it actually made, whereas the spider just creates one in a matter of minutes. Have you ever seen through the life cycle of a butterfly? i have - right from the eggs, to the hatching caterpillar, watching it eat, growing bigger by the day, creating a cocoon and then watch an emerging butterfly at the end of it all - its just pure amazement. I could go on, but all of this hasn't come about by accident, this has been purposefully planned and set into motion, by someone of a higher exsistence then us.

Just, where is he now?............
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thefireproofmatch

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2011, 08:56:50 AM »
I could go on, but all of this hasn't come about by accident, this has been purposefully planned and set into motion, by someone of a higher exsistence then us.

The word "accident" implies that the entire universe wasn't supposed to exist or something along those lines. Of course it isn't all an accident, and does not require a higher power to be "set in motion".
we're expected to throw up our hands and just BELIEVE.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2011, 09:00:49 AM »
So, a spider creating a web so perfectly, and an emerging butterfly just 'happened one day'? - just like that, no higher exsistence planning it?
When you're right, no-one remembers. When you're wrong, no-one forgets.

 And yes, definitely a female.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2011, 09:19:13 AM »
So, a spider creating a web so perfectly, and an emerging butterfly just 'happened one day'? - just like that, no higher exsistence planning it?
It didn't happen just one day, but yes, no higher existence planned it.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2011, 09:20:08 AM »
So, a spider creating a web so perfectly, and an emerging butterfly just 'happened one day'? - just like that, no higher exsistence planning it?
It didn't happen just one day, but yes, no higher existence planned it.
Proof?
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2011, 09:33:09 AM »
So, a spider creating a web so perfectly, and an emerging butterfly just 'happened one day'? - just like that, no higher exsistence planning it?

Kind of. I'd suppose that a proto-caterpillar evolved to hibernate while metamorphosing into a minorly different adult form. A caterpillar with a hardened shell would be much more likely to survive, so eventually they ended up with a cocoon. Safe in their cocoon, they slowly evolved to become butterflies. Obviously this is just speculation, but the point is that evolution isn't exactly random.

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Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2011, 09:56:34 AM »
Of course it isn't all an accident, and does not require a higher power to be "set in motion".
If it isn't an accident, then it is deliberate. If it is deliberate, thank God.

Ok, here's the bit i'm struggling to get my head around - if there is no Heaven, where does the Creator live? - is he still alive?, is he just observing the world and all that he created, without interferring, and if so, does he not have emotions?, how is he comprehending and allowing all the pain and distruction that is happening on this world right now? Or did he create the world and at some piont has died?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not slating Diety at all - i cetainly don't believe all that is on this world, just happened by accident, or by the big bang. Have you ever watched a spider create a  web? - i have, its fascinating - a simple creature creating something so perfect as a web, the skill that went into creating it is just outstanding - humans could create a web, but no doubt, would of plotted it out on AutoCad and then use all manner of tools and a lot of time and effort to get it actually made, whereas the spider just creates one in a matter of minutes. Have you ever seen through the life cycle of a butterfly? i have - right from the eggs, to the hatching caterpillar, watching it eat, growing bigger by the day, creating a cocoon and then watch an emerging butterfly at the end of it all - its just pure amazement. I could go on, but all of this hasn't come about by accident, this has been purposefully planned and set into motion, by someone of a higher exsistence then us.

Just, where is he now?............
Deism suggests He isn't interested in people. Once the universe was set in motion, it was tools down, cup of tea, move on to the next thing. Deism maintains that 'God' doesn't participate in the universe. It also doesn't stipulate that God has mass or physical manifestation. So He doesn't need to 'be' anywhere. He only needs to have created. What He is doing now would only be idle speculation, but even 'doing' may be anthropomorphism. He ... it, (it might not even be an it if it doesn't have physical form), but God doesn't have to be doing anything at all.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2011, 10:07:09 AM »
But surely, if you have created something as wonderful as Earth, with all the wonderful creatures etc that inhabit it, would He/it not want to watch over it, see it motion? its or is that just a human response, an inner need as it were?
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 And yes, definitely a female.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2011, 10:09:06 AM »
But surely, if you have created something as wonderful as Earth, with all the wonderful creatures etc that inhabit it, would He/it not want to watch over it, see it motion? its or is that just a human response, an inner need as it were?

In Deism, wonder and awe are not usually attributes of the god.

Honestly, if I were to believe in a god, deism would be the way to go.
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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2011, 10:11:10 AM »
So, a spider creating a web so perfectly, and an emerging butterfly just 'happened one day'? - just like that, no higher exsistence planning it?

Here we go again with the "its so perfect" idea. What if spider webs are meant to look different but spiders just make them really badly? What if butterflies are meant to be able to sing beutiful music but cant?
This thread will go nowhere until the Thorks and RTTs of this world understand that perfect is essentially an imaginary concept. Something is only perfect if it fits a predefined criterion, and imperfect if it doesnt. The real meat of that, the bit that the ID fans never address, is how is that criterion defined?
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2011, 10:26:50 AM »
Skeleton, have you actually seen a spiders web, i mean, stopped and looked, close up? have you noticed how each strand are equal distances apart - that to me speaks of mathematical perfection - there is so much natural mathematical perfection in this world - take for instance, a beehive, made up of hexagons, a shape that interlocks so that there are no spaces for grubs or honey to get lost or wasted - that is natural perfection. That to me suggests that all of that didn't just happen.

When you're right, no-one remembers. When you're wrong, no-one forgets.

 And yes, definitely a female.

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Skeleton

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2011, 10:34:27 AM »
Skeleton, have you actually seen a spiders web, i mean, stopped and looked, close up? have you noticed how each strand are equal distances apart - that to me speaks of mathematical perfection - there is so much natural mathematical perfection in this world - take for instance, a beehive, made up of hexagons, a shape that interlocks so that there are no spaces for grubs or honey to get lost or wasted - that is natural perfection. That to me suggests that all of that didn't just happen.

That to me suggests you havent understood what I just posted. The little grey cells continue to lie dormant. There are hundreds of instances in nature where things are perfect from one viewpoint and imperfect from another, and a couple I can think of where they arent perfect from any viewpoint at all. I think before you make any more comments on the perfection of natures design you should look up how human blood clotting and blood pressure control works. Actually, dont bother, because you will only need me to point out what part of it is relevant to the discussion.  ::)
If the ultimate objective is to kill Skeleton, we should just do that next.

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thefireproofmatch

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2011, 10:34:54 AM »
Skeleton, have you actually seen a spiders web, i mean, stopped and looked, close up? have you noticed how each strand are equal distances apart - that to me speaks of mathematical perfection - there is so much natural mathematical perfection in this world - take for instance, a beehive, made up of hexagons, a shape that interlocks so that there are no spaces for grubs or honey to get lost or wasted - that is natural perfection. That to me suggests that all of that didn't just happen.
Are the strands exactly the same distance apart? Are all the hexagons in the beehive perfect, with none irregular or misshapen? Mathematical shapes in nature are not a sign of god. They are the result of crafty evolution. Hexagons work the best, so the bees that use hexagons thrive, as opposed to other bees in the past that may have used other shapes.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 10:36:49 AM by thefireproofmatch »
we're expected to throw up our hands and just BELIEVE.

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Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2011, 10:39:30 AM »
Here we go again with the "its so perfect" idea. What if spider webs are meant to look different but spiders just make them really badly? What if butterflies are meant to be able to sing beutiful music but cant?

Please stop using non sequiturs.  Obviously spiderwebs weren't "meant" to look different; they exist as they do because they aid in the survival of the species.  The same can be said for butterflies.  Both spiderwebs and butterflies exist as they do today because the way the exist today was what it took for spiders and butterflies to exist for as long as they have.

Quote
This thread will go nowhere until the Thorks and RTTs of this world understand that perfect is essentially an imaginary concept.

Please, Skeleton.  This thread will go nowhere as long as you keep putting words in people's mouths and ignore what's actually said.  I never claimed the universe was perfect.

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Something is only perfect if it fits a predefined criterion, and imperfect if it doesnt.

So everything that fits a predefined criterion is perfect?  The Ford Pinto went off the line fitting its predefined criteria.  Is it perfect?

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The real meat of that, the bit that the ID fans never address, is how is that criterion defined?

My opinion is that the Creator intended to design something beautiful and structured and ordered, and for creatures to exist in that something that are able to observe and describe and appreciate it, and perhaps to recognize the existence of something bigger than them that was responsible for it.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

Thork

Re: FE and Deism
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2011, 10:58:11 AM »
You can pick anything you like. Lets just look at the human body as we all have one. I am not saying the human body is perfect, that would be subjective.

But the reasons it can exist is. I'll pick just one thing needed by life.

Salt has a very unique property. In contrast to all other crystalline structures, the atomic structure of salt is not molecular, but electrical. This fact is what makes salt so transformable. When we submerge a quartz crystal. It did not change molecularly, though it has a crystalline structure. Although the crystal can give its energy, its frequency pattern into the surrounding water, which is effortlessly absorbed, the quartz crystal remains the same. The crystal is too rooted in matter to be dissolved or disassociated from its polarity. When we submerge a crystal of salt into water, it dissolves, and the sole (so-lay) is created. Sole is neither water nor salt. It is a higher energetic dimension than either the water or the salt alone. When the sole evaporates, the salt is left behind. This transformability of salt ensures that it does not have to be metabolized in our body. Starch is transformed into sugar, protein into amino acids and fat into glycerin and acid. But salt remains salt. It is directly available to the cells in its ionized form as sole. All other foods must be separated into their components in order for the body to make use of them. But salt always remains in its original form. It even accesses our brain directly. Without salt, you could not touch, move or even think.

Quote from: http://thesaltcavern.com/Factsaboutsalt.aspx
Even the simplest processes in our body need salt or its inherent elements in ionized form. For example, it is the task of our nervous system to transmit the stimulation that has been recorded via sensory input to our brain, which in return passes this information back to our muscles in order for us to react to the respective stimuli. An electric potential occurs on the membrane wall of the cells when the positively charged potassium ions leave the cell and the positively charged sodium ions cannot enter due to their size. The outside becomes positively charged and the inside negatively charged. When a nerve cell is stimulated, its membrane suddenly becomes polar opposite and consequently is permeable for the sodium ion. In one-thousandth of a second (1/1000th), the electrical potential is transformed and releases, with every nerve impulse, 90 mill volts of energy. The received stimuli are now being converted into thoughts and actions. Without the elements potassium and sodium in the salt this process is not possible. Not even a single thought is possible, let alone an action, without their presence. Jest the simple act of drinking a glass of water requires millions of instruction that come as impulses. In the beginning there is the thought. This thought is nothing but an electromagnetic frequency. The salt is responsible for enabling this frequency to transmit commands to the muscles and organs.

So is it a fluke salt exists as it does? Without it and its properties, nothing else could be used, so no life.
What about phosphorus? That is also vital. No other substitute can be used. NASA tries arsenic. It didn't work. Or water?
And those are just materials.
What about the strength of gravity/UA. What about how photon's work? What about wave forms such as radiation to spread light and heat, surface tension, nuclear reactions in stars?

I went in to detail about salt just to highlight that it must be exactly as it is or life cannot be. No substitute would do.
The real wonder of the universe and the reason it is described as perfect is not because you may or may not have a perfect life. The universe wasn't built for you. The reason it is perfect is because if you change almost anything, it and its capacity to harbour life would not be. The fact that all of the billions of variables all work together and changing just one line of the code would make the program crash, shows just how brilliant the designer was. Not one mistake, not one thing out of place.

The fact you cannot imagine all of the things that could go wrong that prohibit a universe existing is neither here nor there. Play your thought experiments and use the slender possibility that it all happened by accident or that there must be an uncountable number of universes if it allows you your confirmation bias. The universe won't care.  It proved you wrong already, by your very existence.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 11:01:03 AM by Thork »