The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)

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The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« on: August 21, 2014, 08:03:26 PM »
(Note to moderator: I am reposting this question on this forum after receiving persistent complaints from a user about posting a "question" on the debate forum.)

Flat earthers explain the fact that almost everyone in the world believes in a round earth by claiming that we have all been indoctrinated by the world's governments, scientists and educators.  The implication, and often the direct statement, is that we should believe only what we can personally verify or what seems logical to us.

But flat earthers believe lots of scientific claims that they cannot personally verify and that can't be logically deduced.  For example, the world's government, scientists and educators have been telling us for a long time that the water molecule is made of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  Yet there is probably not a single person on this form, whether FE or RE, that is capable of proving this fact.  And yet flat earthers believe it anyway.

So why do you flat earthers believe (assuming you do) that water has the chemical composition that you are told it has?
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

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Shmeggley

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 09:15:15 PM »
Splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen is not that hard. I did it in my kitchen when I was about 12. So it's a pretty easy one to check for yourself.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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guv

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 01:48:26 AM »
Me too. Scared shit out of my mother when I lit it up.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 02:36:55 AM »
Splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen is not that hard. I did it in my kitchen when I was about 12. So it's a pretty easy one to check for yourself.
How did you know they were hydrogen and oxygen?
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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 05:45:40 AM »
And how did you know there were two hydrogen atoms for every one oxygen?

I'll be happy to post a slightly different scientific fact if the composition of water wasn't a good choice.  For example, my point is the same if we talk about the fact that DNA is in the form of a double helix.  I doubt any of us could verify this, yet even flat earthers probably believe it's true.  Why would they believe this if all they have to go on is statements from authorities?
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

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markjo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 06:11:20 AM »
How do you know that your "mother" is the woman who actually gave birth to you?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Pongo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 06:20:58 AM »
(Note to moderator: I am reposting this question on this forum after receiving persistent complaints from a user about posting a "question" on the debate forum.)

Flat earthers explain the fact that almost everyone in the world believes in a round earth by claiming that we have all been indoctrinated by the world's governments, scientists and educators.  The implication, and often the direct statement, is that we should believe only what we can personally verify or what seems logical to us.

But flat earthers believe lots of scientific claims that they cannot personally verify and that can't be logically deduced.  For example, the world's government, scientists and educators have been telling us for a long time that the water molecule is made of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  Yet there is probably not a single person on this form, whether FE or RE, that is capable of proving this fact.  And yet flat earthers believe it anyway.

So why do you flat earthers believe (assuming you do) that water has the chemical composition that you are told it has?

I'm not so much a zetetic as others on this forum.  But while I believe there is certainly a place for other methods than the scientific method, I am perfectly willing to accept an experts word on a matter in their mastery.  Why I reject the round-earth model is because I do not accept their evidence as accurate.  Why I support the flat-earth model is that I do find their evidence compelling. 

As for why zetetics accept things they cannot verify, I'm not sure they do and if they do, I'm not sure why.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 07:01:26 AM »
I'm not so much a zetetic as others on this forum. 
Like who?  I haven't noticed a single zetetic on this forum in all my time here.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 07:39:56 AM »
Why I support the flat-earth model is that I do find their evidence compelling. 

What evidence of the flat-earth model do you find compelling?
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

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Pongo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2014, 08:00:39 AM »
I'm not so much a zetetic as others on this forum. 
Like who?  I haven't noticed a single zetetic on this forum in all my time here.

They do seem rather sparse nowadays don't they?  I'm referring to Daniel, Willmore, Bishop, and Davis mostly.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:07:03 AM by Pongo »

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Pongo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 08:08:29 AM »
Why I support the flat-earth model is that I do find their evidence compelling. 

What evidence of the flat-earth model do you find compelling?

General observational evidence, avian migration patterns, Bedford level, to name a few.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2014, 08:35:56 AM »
Why I support the flat-earth model is that I do find their evidence compelling. 

What evidence of the flat-earth model do you find compelling?

General observational evidence, avian migration patterns, Bedford level, to name a few.
Sunrise, sunset, GPS, measured distance, travel times, satellite TV as well?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:38:54 AM by inquisitive »

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Pongo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2014, 08:44:56 AM »
Why I support the flat-earth model is that I do find their evidence compelling. 

What evidence of the flat-earth model do you find compelling?

General observational evidence, avian migration patterns, Bedford level, to name a few.
Sunrise, sunset, GPS, measured distance, travel times, satellite TV as well?

Sure.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2014, 09:03:05 AM »
Sunrise, sunset, GPS, measured distance, travel times and satellite TV are evidence for RE not FE, since RE explains all of them and FE explains none of them.
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2014, 09:27:10 AM »
Sunrise, sunset, GPS, measured distance, travel times and satellite TV are evidence for RE not FE, since RE explains all of them and FE explains none of them.
Well, you have to admit FE comes up with some really interesting explanations for all of this ;)

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 09:49:09 AM »

What evidence of the flat-earth model do you find compelling?

General observational evidence, avian migration patterns, Bedford level, to name a few.

Observational evidence:  Do you mean that you can't see any curvature with the naked eye while standing on a shore?  If so, this is not evidence of a flat or round earth, since the earth's diameter is far too big for us to see curvature in that scenario.

Avian migration pattern? Please explain.

Bedford Level: this experiment has been thoroughly discredited, as documented here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment

You said "to name a few".  What are the others?
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

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robintex

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 10:11:33 AM »
(Note to moderator: I am reposting this question on this forum after receiving persistent complaints from a user about posting a "question" on the debate forum.)

Flat earthers explain the fact that almost everyone in the world believes in a round earth by claiming that we have all been indoctrinated by the world's governments, scientists and educators.  The implication, and often the direct statement, is that we should believe only what we can personally verify or what seems logical to us.

But flat earthers believe lots of scientific claims that they cannot personally verify and that can't be logically deduced. For example, the world's government, scientists and educators have been telling us for a long time that the water molecule is made of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  Yet there is probably not a single person on this form, whether FE or RE, that is capable of proving this fact.  And yet flat earthers believe it anyway.

So why do you flat earthers believe (assuming you do) that water has the chemical composition that you are told it has?


I guess you have never taken a High School course in Physics  ? That was one of the first experiments we did ? Elementary, My Dear Watson.....Well,maybe not Elementary but at the High School level of education . The composition of water is not a belief, it's a fact. ;D

I am also surprised that you did not cite The Gospel According To The Eminent Doctor of Philosophy and Medicine , Sir Samuel Rowbotham , in your beliefs of a Flat Earth ?
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

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robintex

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 10:15:56 AM »
Sunrise, sunset, GPS, measured distance, travel times and satellite TV are evidence for RE not FE, since RE explains all of them and FE explains none of them.
Well, you have to admit FE comes up with some really interesting explanations for all of this ;)

That's what makes this website so entertaining. See my signature line.  ;D
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 10:32:34 AM »
(Note to moderator: I am reposting this question on this forum after receiving persistent complaints from a user about posting a "question" on the debate forum.)

Flat earthers explain the fact that almost everyone in the world believes in a round earth by claiming that we have all been indoctrinated by the world's governments, scientists and educators.  The implication, and often the direct statement, is that we should believe only what we can personally verify or what seems logical to us.

But flat earthers believe lots of scientific claims that they cannot personally verify and that can't be logically deduced. For example, the world's government, scientists and educators have been telling us for a long time that the water molecule is made of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.  Yet there is probably not a single person on this form, whether FE or RE, that is capable of proving this fact.  And yet flat earthers believe it anyway.

So why do you flat earthers believe (assuming you do) that water has the chemical composition that you are told it has?


I guess you have never taken a High School course in Physics  ? That was one of the first experiments we did ? Elementary, My Dear Watson.....Well,maybe not Elementary but at the High School level of education . The composition of water is not a belief, it's a fact. ;D

I am also surprised that you did not cite The Gospel According To The Eminent Doctor of Philosophy and Medicine , Sir Samuel Rowbotham , in your beliefs of a Flat Earth ?

You misinterpreted my post.  I know what water is made of, and I know the earth is a spheroid.  I am attempting to point out that flat earthers are very selective about when they believe the opinions of "the authorities" on matters that involve things that the average person cannot verify himself.  Maybe the composition of water is a bad example -- if I did such an experiment in high school or college physics, I don't remember it.

When scientists, professors, high school teachers and government-funded researchers state that X is true, flat earthers have two possible responses:  A) in the case of the shape of the earth, "They are all part of the conspiracy to indoctrinate us", or B) in the case of the composition or water, the double helix shape of DNA, or various other facts that don't relate to flat earth, they say "Sure, I accept the authorities' word on that."
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 12:12:20 PM »
Why I reject the round-earth model is because I do not accept their evidence as accurate.  Why I support the flat-earth model is that I do find their evidence compelling. 
I appreciate pongo for making his clear statement.  The obvious follow-up is "what evidence is not accurate", and "what evidence is compelling, and why?"

At the risk of this becoming a discussion, which it should, I'd like to explore these questions here. If the moderator(s) prefer, I will (or they can) move this to the previous discussion thread, or a new one. I hope that the stated policy of "no discussion in Q&A" will be reconsidered since any controversial "A" to a "Q" is likely to be challenged, or at least probed, which should lead to a discussion. Since this is The Flat Earth Society forum, almost any answer is going to be considered controversial by someone.  It's your forum, though...

Here are a few pieces of evidence I'd like your thoughts on, pongo (or anyone else, for that matter)...

First the Mainstream stuff:

There's an agreed-on globe that is consistent with measured distances and observed travel times anywhere on the surface.

The overall shape of the earth is very close to (but not exactly) an ellipsoid. The reference ellipsoid is close enough to a perfect sphere that in many cases the spherical model suffices, with the advantage of being significantly simpler. As equipment and techniques used to measure the size and shape of the earth's surface improve, the models (dimensions and orientation of the ellipsoid) are occasionally adjusted, but for the last few decades, these adjustments are small. For very high precision work, particular ellipsoid models that fit certain areas better than the worldwide model (at the cost of being worse elsewhere) may sometimes be used; the North American Datum of 1983 (NAD83) vs. the more general World Geodetic Survey of 1984 (WGS84) is an example. Sometimes older models are retained simply to avoid having to adjust maps when there is not a compelling need. This does not indicate "disagreement" among geodesists over the shape of the earth, at least in general; it is simple convenience or necessity in some cases.

Apparent motion of the sun and other celestial bodies across the sky.

The rise, path across the sky, and set of celestial objects is for most purposes exactly as you would expect to see for very distant objects from the surface of a rotating sphere with light traveling in a straight line.  This includes the apparent motion of circumpolar objects (those that never set) around either celestial pole, and why some objects never rise at all from particular latitudes - true also of the sun at high enough latitude depending on the season. Exactly which celestial objects will be visible from any location and their position in the sky are routinely predicted with high accuracy based on the spherical model; they're there when you look, which confirms the predictions.

Small differences from the ideal due mostly to atmospheric refraction (about a half degree for objects very close to the horizon; quickly insignificant higher in the sky for most work) and, to a much lesser degree, the ellipsoidal (not spherical) earth, are well understood, explained, and predicted. In fact, the effects of refraction are observable with only a little effort: view or photograph the sun with a properly-filtered (and be careful!!!) telescope when it is high in the sky and note its shape is a very nearly perfect circle. Repeat a moment before it starts to go below the horizon.  It looks distinctly flattened because the lower limb is refracted upward more than the upper limb.

The horizon.

Standing on the shore and looking out over large bodies of water, one can see distant objects disappear from the bottom up as distance increases.  The same object can be viewed at farther distance before it's partially or entirely obscured by the horizon when viewed from higher above water level. Even if the surface of the ocean may not appear strongly curved on casual observation while standing on a beach, it is, very subtly.  These observations, and the distances involved, are entirely consistent with a spherical earth approximately 8,000 miles in diameter.

Flat Earth:

There is not an agreed-on map of what a flat earth would look like.

I've seen on this site two types of flat-earth maps, the so-called "unipolar" and "bipolar" maps. They are wildly different from each other, and both representations show vast inconsistencies with distances and travel times that are known. Unipolar seems to be more popular here, but many will aver that they're only symbolic, not real maps.

Mapping should be much easier on a flat earth because only plane trigonometry is required, not the more complex spherical (or worse, ellipsoidal) trig.  This is where it seems the appeal for the simplicity of a flat earth would be best demonstrated, yet there are no maps of even regions based on a flat earth presented.  None.  Even though making a true map of a flat earth should be simpler than what is routinely done, there's none at all.

Celestial motion.

The motion of the sun relative to the flat earth has to be in direct conflict with everyday observations without very peculiar behavior of light.  The most obvious inconsistency is sunrises and sunsets, given the most-often cited model, with the sun circling daily somewhere near the equator, around the north pole of a unipolar earth.  Unless the light is bending strongly, sunrises and sunsets simply aren't possible for geometric reasons. If you do accept that light bends, the reason for this has not been explained and doesn't appear to be understood, nor is the actual path a ray of light takes from sun to earth known. The bending of light would have to make objects in the sky appear lower than they actually are the further they are from the zenith, the opposite effect of refraction described earlier, so the sun should appear stretched as it descends toward the horizon. Has this ever been measured or even observed?

How does circumpolar motion of stars (and the sun) work south of the equator? On the Ross Ice Shelf during the southern summer the sun can be seen moving from right to left as you look at it, from high in the northern sky at local noon to low in the south 12 hours later, then back, once each day. As you travel further south, the same phenomenon continues, but with less difference between the highest and lowest elevations. I've been there and seen it. If I'm south of the sun, on a flat earth, how can the sun appear south of me unless light is taking a really complex path?  Where has the simplicity gone?

The horizon.

"Look out your window. It looks flat to me." This seems to be the strongest direct flat-earth argument I've heard so far.  Nonetheless, what you see "out your window" (presuming it's a view over a wide area with nearly-constant elevation) is not inconsistent with a view of the same from a large sphere.  Inconclusive at best.

Objects disappearing from the bottom up, and, in fact, having a horizon at all on a flat earth again requires curved light of an unknown nature.  If you have to presume that light can't be trusted to travel in a straight line, how can the Bedford Level Experiment be meaningful - if it actually showed what some people claim it did, which is far from certain?



"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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ausGeoff

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2014, 01:55:10 AM »

General observational evidence, avian migration patterns, Bedford level, to name a few.

"Observation" does not equal evidence.  Crystalline strychnine is poisonous.  White sugar is not.  Both are observed to be identical physically.

Avian migration does not prove flat or round earth.  Null point.

The 150-year-old Bedford Level "experiment" has long been debunked with modern methods of laser measurement.


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markjo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2014, 08:20:33 AM »

General observational evidence, avian migration patterns, Bedford level, to name a few.

"Observation" does not equal evidence.  Crystalline strychnine is poisonous.  White sugar is not.  Both are observed to be identical physically.
I'm not quite sure that you understand what "observation" and "evidence" mean.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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ausGeoff

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2014, 10:34:38 AM »
I'm not quite sure that you understand what "observation" and "evidence" mean.


Strychnine and sugar look to be identical to an observer.  One of them is a deadly poison.  "Observation" will not tell you which one.  You need the "evidence" from an analytical chemist to confirm which is which.

Another example to clarify this:  I show you two equally-sized bars of a chrome-plated metal.  One of them is a magnet.  "Observation" will not tell you which one.  You need the "evidence" of a small ferrous item in close proximity to tell which is which.

In general, observations—which many flat earthers rely solely upon to support their theories—are often wrong or inconclusive at best.

—A classic example is that the flat earth sun and moon are identical sizes.  This is claimed purely from alleged observation, with no supporting evidence.


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Son of Orospu

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2014, 11:14:28 AM »
This is not a debate forum, ausGeoff. 

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markjo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2014, 11:18:29 AM »
I'm not quite sure that you understand what "observation" and "evidence" mean.


Strychnine and sugar look to be identical to an observer.  One of them is a deadly poison.  "Observation" will not tell you which one.  You need the "evidence" from an analytical chemist to confirm which is which.
Do you think that your eyes are the only way to observe things?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rama Set

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2014, 06:05:07 PM »
My god, the entire science of astronomy is based on observation.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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ausGeoff

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 08:09:23 AM »
This is not a debate forum, ausGeoff.

It's of note that once again jroa singles me alone out for an unwarranted reprimand.  It's becoming more obvious every time he does this—as he has several time over the past couple of weeks—that the thrust of my comments all too often strikes at some raw nerve of his.  And this sort of behaviour is exactly why I brought up the topic if inconsistent moderation earlier on.  It seems as soon as jroa comes across a comment and/or opinion that he personally disagrees with, he artfully attempts to shut it down.  So much for freedom of speech on a public forum.

Anyway... If you'd chosen to read the rest of the thread jroa, you would've seen that I was providing an answer to a question raised by markjo:  "I'm not quite sure that you understand what "observation" and "evidence" mean".

And as far as I understand it, the Q&A forum is all about... uh... questions and answers is it not.

—Or do flat earthers have a differing and self-serving definition to that of round earthers for the sake of quashing meaningful dialogue?



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Rama Set

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 08:13:38 AM »
This is not a public forum.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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ausGeoff

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 09:05:45 AM »
This is not a public forum.

LOL... the forum's attack dog is still snapping at my heels.   jroa will be pleased.    ;D


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Pongo

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Re: The indoctrination of flat earthers (2nd attempt)
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2014, 09:49:37 AM »
This is not a debate forum, ausGeoff.

It's of note that once again jroa singles me alone out for an unwarranted reprimand.  It's becoming more obvious every time he does this—as he has several time over the past couple of weeks—that the thrust of my comments all too often strikes at some raw nerve of his.  And this sort of behaviour is exactly why I brought up the topic if inconsistent moderation earlier on.  It seems as soon as jroa comes across a comment and/or opinion that he personally disagrees with, he artfully attempts to shut it down.  So much for freedom of speech on a public forum.

Anyway... If you'd chosen to read the rest of the thread jroa, you would've seen that I was providing an answer to a question raised by markjo:  "I'm not quite sure that you understand what "observation" and "evidence" mean".

And as far as I understand it, the Q&A forum is all about... uh... questions and answers is it not.

—Or do flat earthers have a differing and self-serving definition to that of round earthers for the sake of quashing meaningful dialogue?

If someone posts an off-topic or semi-low content post every so often, it has a better chance of slipping by than one from a trouble-maker. If you feel you are being targeted, maybe it's time to take a step back and ponder as to why. That being said, if you want to raise a concern about moderation, please do it in Suggestions and Concerns. This is a warning.