Elizabethan World view Debate

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Lorddave

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Elizabethan World view Debate
« on: August 25, 2010, 01:35:05 PM »
To keep the repository clear, I shall debate the topic here...
(original topic)
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=41849.0

Quote
This book superbly and clearly summarizes many of the intrinsic characteristic truths of ancient and medieval wordlviews which occultism and atheism under the cover of modern science and artificial respectability has sought to annihilate from man's knowledge and understanding.  Knowledge of the themes discussed in this book is a worthwhile asset to anyone interested in a traditional flat earth model of the cosmos.

The 4 humors of the human body.  How is that an amazing truth of ancient and medieval world views with occultism and atheism has sought to destroy?  Last time I checked, medical science has cured far more than "the science of the 4 humors" ever did.
Also, does that book tell of how the Roman Catholic Church absolved sins with money? Does it tell of how Witchcraft was responsible for the Black Death?

The people of the middle ages were ignorant and poor.  The Thames was polluted with human waste. The city streets were covered in it as well.  The nobility had perfume in their handkerchiefs to smell when the odor of the area became too unbearable.   The peasants had little rights and even less education.  If you wanted to learn to read and weren't rich, you'd have to join the Church.  The Middle Ages (or Dark Ages) did more to oppress people and knowledge than any other time period in human history.  It's specifically called the Dark Ages because society and science didn't advance.

Frankly, I can't imagine there would be any truth in that book except the truth that people believed what's written in it.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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zork

  • 3319
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 09:51:54 PM »
 I guess that its just overly exaggerated nostalgic cry about old things. People forget old and useless things but some cling to them and are offended when others don't care anymore.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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General Disarray

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 10:19:09 PM »
Quote
Appeal to Antiquity / Tradition
Explanation

An appeal to antiquity is the opposite of an appeal to novelty. Appeals to antiquity assume that older ideas are better, that the fact that an idea has been around for a while implies that it is true. This, of course, is not the case; old ideas can be bad ideas, and new ideas can be good ideas. We therefore can’t learn anything about the truth of an idea just by considering how old it is.
Example

(1) Religion dates back many thousands of years (whereas atheism is a relatively recent development).
Therefore:
(2) Some form of religion is true.

This argument is an appeal to antiquity because the only evidence that it offers in favour of religion is its age. There are many old ideas, of course, that are known to be false: e.g. that the Earth is flat, or that it is the still centre of the solar system. It therefore could be the case that the premise of this argument is true (that religion is older than atheism) but that its conclusion is nevertheless false (that no religion is true). We need a lot more evidence about religion (or any other theory) than how old it is before we can be justified in accepting it as true. Appeals to antiquity are therefore fallacious.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2010, 01:26:22 AM »
I believe that review of how we got here is always worthwhile. We just need to recognize our mistakes. Unlike FEers who hold onto such horrible sources as Rowbotham, we need to see the pattern in our errors and avoid them.

For example, Ichy recently made some obtuse comment that Google maps wasn't accurate. Rather than presenting his evidence, he resorted to taunts. When all was said and done, we found the Ichy had been wrong, again. We need to see the pattern: bad theories are merely speculation and hide in the shadows from the light of evidence. Anteater thinks that he can speculate about the location of Australia and not provide and evidence to support it. When faced with verifiable, objective evidence that he's wrong, he fallaciously attacks the source (in this case Google) instead of verifying the evidence for himself.

I wonder though if FEers are hoping to just confuse others with outdated, invalidated evidence. I remember reading about Rowbotham's inane claim about the distance HMS Challenger traveled around Antarctica. Tom Bishop even took up the same argument in these very forums. Of course, many people many times have pointed out the failure of the FEers here, yet they persist to present their invalidated arguments. I guess you play with a broken bat if that is all you have... 
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2010, 04:13:00 AM »
The 4 humors of the human body.  How is that an amazing truth of ancient and medieval world views with occultism and atheism has sought to destroy?  Last time I checked, medical science has cured far more than "the science of the 4 humors" ever did.

Under the cover of capitalist backed modern medicine, occultism and atheism have caused the widespread proliferation of terminal diseases and degenerative illnesses like cancer which were unknown whenever and wherever the four humors philosophy prevailed.  Artificial food including chemical agriculture which includes mostly poisons is also part of the science of death which has replaced Hippocratic medicine and natural food. 
Modern diagnosis such as cellular diagnosis of disease such as used in a pap smear is inferior to virtually any branch of tradtional four humors medicine.  Modern medicine is simply garbage, and thus it goes under cover of mysterious and knowledgeable sounding names such as cytopathology (cellular diagnosis) which most people have to look up in order to know what it means, but complicated words, big buildings, and money do not heal people. 
Correct diagnosis and good treatment of a medical condition are what heals people.

Anti-cancer chemical (chemo) therapy consists of inserting poisons into a patient's body in order that the cancer be killed before the body.  The principle is the same as chemical agriculture which uses deadly poisons to fight bugs - a modern practice which previous generations found unnecessary.  Antibiotics are also poison.

Murder by Injection:  The Medical Conspiracy
By Eustace Mullins
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/murderinjection.pdf

This book is a critical history of the American Medical Association from the 1850's to the present and includes chapters on poisonous detriments to health since that time which the AMA has officially introduced to the public with false propaganda that such novelties as mass vaccinations or the insertion of rat poison into tooth paste and water supplies are allegedly healthy.

Louis Pasteur's germ theory is an example of modern medicine's misunderstanding of the body.  Pasteur's rival Antoine Beauchamp who both more honest than Pateur and also used a traditional method of pathology (diagnosis) was infinitely Pasteur's superior, but Pasteur made friends with money and his fame spread in concert with the deterioration of medicine.

Pasteur's False Germ Theory
http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/terrain/lost_history_of_medicine.htm

The four humors are a method of pathology (diagnosis) which along with the Hippocratic oath are the central aspect of the greek medicine of Hippocrates.  Hippocratic medicine is the basis of Greek, Roman, Arab and Islamic, and renaissance era medicine.  It was used in western medicine until the nineteenth century. 

The official British and american medical establishments were very corrupt and deadly in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and early twentieth centuries.  Hippocratic greek medicine including humorism was officially eliminated as a practice of diagnosis by the British during the nineteenth century.  The very famous herbalist Nicholas Culpeper is the best known doctor of Elizabethan England.  He was persecuted as a leftist democrat like the Levelers, and he used Hippocratic medicine and four humors pathology.  Culpeper is a landmark of the persistence of ancient medicine in England before its medicine became corrupt like its colonialist politics (which are related).  Culpeper's Complete Herbal is probably the most famous herbal in the world.

The Complete Herbal
By Nicholas Culpeper
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/66/113/frameset.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Culpeper

Neither Ayurvedic medicine nor traditional Chinese medicine have a theory of four humours, but they have good aspects such as the use of herbs.  In my opinion, both of these systems do include occult and religious aspects combined with the treatment, especially in Ayurvedic medicine.  Traditional Chinese medicine contains less of this except for its focus on "chi" (energy) which, in my opinion, could involve some characteristics inherited from Buddhism involving demons.  Any possible negative effects of these two systems is negligible compared to the horrors of modern western medicine.  And in any event, neither Ayurveda, TCM, nor modern western medicine involve the four humours.

Hippocratic medicine was preserved most intact by muslims.  The Greek medicine of Hippocrates which constitutes the original basis of Islamic medicine.  Hippocratic medicine survives most strongly in the branch of of islamic medicine from India known as Unani medicine (Greek medicine).  The "medical" branch of British colonialism tried to annihilate this branch of medicine during the nineteenth century.

'Islam and Healing: Loss and Recovery of an Indo-Muslim Medical Tradition, 1600-1900'
By Seema Alevi
http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Healing-Indo-Muslim-Tradition-1600-1900/dp/0230554385/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282816585&sr=1-2

MODERN MEDICAL BOOKS WHICH UTILIZE DIAGNOSIS BY THE FOUR HUMOURS:

The Traditional Healer:  A Comprehensive Guide to the Principles and Practice of Unani Herbal Medicine
By Halim Chishti
http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Healer-Comprehensive-Principles-Practice/dp/0892812257/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282817881&sr=1-2

The Traditonal Healer's Handbook
By Hakim Chishti
http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Healers-Handbook-Medicine-Avicenna/dp/0892814381/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282816574&sr=1-1

SOME WEBSITES OF GREEK MEDICINE WHICH UTILIZE THE FOUR HUMOURS:

http://www.greekmedicine.net/
http://www.unani.com/
http://www.traditionalmedicine.net.au/
http://www.unanidoctors.com/

Quote from: Lorddave link=topic=41927.msg1042321#msg1042321 date=1282768505[/quote
Also, does that book tell of how the Roman Catholic Church absolved sins with money?

Does it tell of how Witchcraft was responsible for the Black Death?

I confess I find the setting of the book in seventeenth century england to be rather arbitrary.  The various concepts summarized in the book such as the four humors are universal and antedate the simony developed by the frankish papacy.

Witchcraft is a part of the tradition of modern science.

The book does not discuss developments like simony and witchcraft which are opposed to genuine tradition and thus outside the scope of the book which focuses on illuminating truth rather than falsehood.  That is aside from the fact that protestant Elizabethan England was very much opposed to the abuses of the papacy.

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2010, 05:36:51 AM »
I should add that bleeding is not an aspect of Hippocratic medicine.  The pagan physician Galen, who lived many centuries after Hippocrates, did accept the four humours, but he unfortunately introduced the practice of bleeding into Greek and Roman medicine - analogous to how the pagan astronomer Claudius Ptolemy promoted globularism during that same time.  This somewhat corrupted medicine of Galen was adopted by the Franks and thus dominated the medieval west.  Occultists of sixteenth and seventeenth century Britain also began to add poisons and metals such as mercury and arsenic to the dispensary of traditional herbal medicine.  Poisonous metals were used until World War II.  The introduction of poisonous metals during the British renaissance constituted the origin of the replacement of natural medicine by artificial chemical medicines which are conventional to the modern western medical establishment. 

Thus over time, non-therapeutic and unnecessary elements were gradually added to Hippocratic medicine.  These corrupt practices such as bleeding or ingestion mercury were eventually used as part of a pretext for the rejection of the Hippocratic system itself which occurred during the nineteenth century.  The truth is that these non-therapeutic practices are essentially akin to modern western medicine as proven by medical history and experience.

-------------------------------------------------

I think this book also illustrates the tenuousness of the idea of rapture theory protestant fundamentalists who think of Elizabethan England as a part of their heritage.  England has degenerated considerably since then in order to arrive at such fanatical ideologies as the rapture theory or Darwinism.

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markjo

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 06:12:04 AM »
I should add that bleeding is not an aspect of Hippocratic medicine.  The pagan physician Galen, who lived many centuries after Hippocrates, did accept the four humours, but he unfortunately introduced the practice of bleeding into Greek and Roman medicine - analogous to how the pagan astronomer Claudius Ptolemy promoted globularism during that same time. 

Not to stray too far off topic, but I just wanted to let you guys know that there are some conditions where bleeding is a legitimate therapy in modern medicine.  One of those conditions is called polycythemia.  It's a condition where the body makes too many red blood cells.  Left untreated, polycythemia can lead to some significant heath issues.  However, the preferred treatment is periodic phlebotomy (therapeutic blood donation) when the hemocrit level reaches a certain point.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lorddave

  • 18153
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 12:26:25 PM »
The 4 humors of the human body.  How is that an amazing truth of ancient and medieval world views with occultism and atheism has sought to destroy?  Last time I checked, medical science has cured far more than "the science of the 4 humors" ever did.

Under the cover of capitalist backed modern medicine, occultism and atheism have caused the widespread proliferation of terminal diseases and degenerative illnesses like cancer which were unknown whenever and wherever the four humors philosophy prevailed.  Artificial food including chemical agriculture which includes mostly poisons is also part of the science of death which has replaced Hippocratic medicine and natural food. 
Modern diagnosis such as cellular diagnosis of disease such as used in a pap smear is inferior to virtually any branch of tradtional four humors medicine.  Modern medicine is simply garbage, and thus it goes under cover of mysterious and knowledgeable sounding names such as cytopathology (cellular diagnosis) which most people have to look up in order to know what it means, but complicated words, big buildings, and money do not heal people. 
Correct diagnosis and good treatment of a medical condition are what heals people.

Anti-cancer chemical (chemo) therapy consists of inserting poisons into a patient's body in order that the cancer be killed before the body.  The principle is the same as chemical agriculture which uses deadly poisons to fight bugs - a modern practice which previous generations found unnecessary.  Antibiotics are also poison.

Murder by Injection:  The Medical Conspiracy
By Eustace Mullins
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/murderinjection.pdf

This book is a critical history of the American Medical Association from the 1850's to the present and includes chapters on poisonous detriments to health since that time which the AMA has officially introduced to the public with false propaganda that such novelties as mass vaccinations or the insertion of rat poison into tooth paste and water supplies are allegedly healthy.

Louis Pasteur's germ theory is an example of modern medicine's misunderstanding of the body.  Pasteur's rival Antoine Beauchamp who both more honest than Pateur and also used a traditional method of pathology (diagnosis) was infinitely Pasteur's superior, but Pasteur made friends with money and his fame spread in concert with the deterioration of medicine.

Pasteur's False Germ Theory
http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/terrain/lost_history_of_medicine.htm

The four humors are a method of pathology (diagnosis) which along with the Hippocratic oath are the central aspect of the greek medicine of Hippocrates.  Hippocratic medicine is the basis of Greek, Roman, Arab and Islamic, and renaissance era medicine.  It was used in western medicine until the nineteenth century. 

The official British and american medical establishments were very corrupt and deadly in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and early twentieth centuries.  Hippocratic greek medicine including humorism was officially eliminated as a practice of diagnosis by the British during the nineteenth century.  The very famous herbalist Nicholas Culpeper is the best known doctor of Elizabethan England.  He was persecuted as a leftist democrat like the Levelers, and he used Hippocratic medicine and four humors pathology.  Culpeper is a landmark of the persistence of ancient medicine in England before its medicine became corrupt like its colonialist politics (which are related).  Culpeper's Complete Herbal is probably the most famous herbal in the world.

The Complete Herbal
By Nicholas Culpeper
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/66/113/frameset.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Culpeper

Neither Ayurvedic medicine nor traditional Chinese medicine have a theory of four humours, but they have good aspects such as the use of herbs.  In my opinion, both of these systems do include occult and religious aspects combined with the treatment, especially in Ayurvedic medicine.  Traditional Chinese medicine contains less of this except for its focus on "chi" (energy) which, in my opinion, could involve some characteristics inherited from Buddhism involving demons.  Any possible negative effects of these two systems is negligible compared to the horrors of modern western medicine.  And in any event, neither Ayurveda, TCM, nor modern western medicine involve the four humours.

Hippocratic medicine was preserved most intact by muslims.  The Greek medicine of Hippocrates which constitutes the original basis of Islamic medicine.  Hippocratic medicine survives most strongly in the branch of of islamic medicine from India known as Unani medicine (Greek medicine).  The "medical" branch of British colonialism tried to annihilate this branch of medicine during the nineteenth century.

'Islam and Healing: Loss and Recovery of an Indo-Muslim Medical Tradition, 1600-1900'
By Seema Alevi
http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Healing-Indo-Muslim-Tradition-1600-1900/dp/0230554385/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282816585&sr=1-2

MODERN MEDICAL BOOKS WHICH UTILIZE DIAGNOSIS BY THE FOUR HUMOURS:

The Traditional Healer:  A Comprehensive Guide to the Principles and Practice of Unani Herbal Medicine
By Halim Chishti
http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Healer-Comprehensive-Principles-Practice/dp/0892812257/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282817881&sr=1-2

The Traditonal Healer's Handbook
By Hakim Chishti
http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Healers-Handbook-Medicine-Avicenna/dp/0892814381/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282816574&sr=1-1

SOME WEBSITES OF GREEK MEDICINE WHICH UTILIZE THE FOUR HUMOURS:

http://www.greekmedicine.net/
http://www.unani.com/
http://www.traditionalmedicine.net.au/
http://www.unanidoctors.com/

Quote from: Lorddave link=topic=41927.msg1042321#msg1042321 date=1282768505[/quote
Also, does that book tell of how the Roman Catholic Church absolved sins with money?

Does it tell of how Witchcraft was responsible for the Black Death?

I confess I find the setting of the book in seventeenth century england to be rather arbitrary.  The various concepts summarized in the book such as the four humors are universal and antedate the simony developed by the frankish papacy.

Witchcraft is a part of the tradition of modern science.

The book does not discuss developments like simony and witchcraft which are opposed to genuine tradition and thus outside the scope of the book which focuses on illuminating truth rather than falsehood.  That is aside from the fact that protestant Elizabethan England was very much opposed to the abuses of the papacy.

Yeah....
If modern medicine is evil, corrupt, and wrong, why is it that humans live longer using it?

I'm not sure if you're pretending to be like this or if you were raised in an ultra christian household where the Bible is Truth, Christ is the only God anyone should worship, and science is the arm of the Devil.  In any case, I hope you never use any modern medicine.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

?

zork

  • 3319
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 12:31:53 PM »
 We need more court cases against doctors so we can throw useless modern medicine away and start using alternative medicine. I just hope that USA is the first guinea pig in that area.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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Lorddave

  • 18153
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 12:53:01 PM »
We need more court cases against doctors so we can throw useless modern medicine away and start using alternative medicine. I just hope that USA is the first guinea pig in that area.
I'm moving to Norway.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

?

17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 1318
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 06:53:07 PM »
If modern medicine is evil, corrupt, and wrong, why is it that humans live longer using it?

They don't.

I hope you never use any modern medicine.

I refuse to limited by your narrow mindedness.

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Lorddave

  • 18153
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2010, 10:04:21 PM »
If modern medicine is evil, corrupt, and wrong, why is it that humans live longer using it?

They don't.
you should really take a trip to Europe and check out a graveyard.

Quote
I hope you never use any modern medicine.

I refuse to limited by your narrow mindedness.
So you're a hypocrit?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

?

General Disarray

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2010, 07:15:44 AM »
If modern medicine is evil, corrupt, and wrong, why is it that humans live longer using it?

They don't.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html#axzz0xodXyJb4

And that's just over the last 80 years.
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2010, 08:50:12 AM »
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html#axzz0xodXyJb4

And that's just over the last 80 years.

Exactly.  This chart is probably at least roughly accurate.  

The end of the lethal practice of prescribing toxic metals like arsenic by the 1940's and the post-war revival of traditional medicine and return to herbs is reflected in the results on the chart.  Herbalists and all kinds of practitioners of traditional medicine were persecuted prior to the post-world war ii fall of colonialism and the triumph of the environmentalist movement.


Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2010, 08:58:10 AM »
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html#axzz0xodXyJb4

And that's just over the last 80 years.

Exactly.  This chart is probably at least roughly accurate.  

The end of the lethal practice of prescribing toxic metals like arsenic by the 1940's and the post-war revival of traditional medicine and return to herbs is reflected in the results on the chart.  Herbalists and all kinds of practitioners of traditional medicine were persecuted prior to the post-world war ii fall of colonialism and the triumph of the environmentalist movement.


No doubt you have evidence supporting your claims of effectiveness and frequency of use of these other methods. Of course, given your dismal track record of providing evidence, we don't expect anything from you that wild claims.

Is it no wonder that no one believes FEers?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 1318
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2010, 09:47:40 AM »
HUMOURAL MEDICINE AND THE MULTIPLICATION OF SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES

"The classification of people into inherent constitutional types became of much greater importance than previously in the 19th. century and reached its height of sophistication towards the beginning of the 20th. century. These developments were primarily driven by the decline in the medical practice of the humoral model, and by scientific discovery of the macro- and micro-nutrient chemicals, which appeared to expand knowledge beyond the simple system of the temperaments, although this information did fit in remarkably well with the metabolic model represented by the functions of the humors.  One of the major researchers in this area was Victor Rocine (1859 - 1943) who by 1908 had developed and implemented a inclusive genotype system of classification which contained twenty distinct inherent constitutional types that correlated perfectly with the classifications of the classical temperaments of Graeco-Arabic Medicine."

http://www.traditionalmedicine.net.au/chapter2.htm

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zork

  • 3319
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2010, 10:34:21 AM »

 Stupid humans, they always want to understand what makes something tick. And so they discovered bacteria, microbes and  cures and antibiotics. It would have been far easier when they would just listen when someone waves hands above their heads and mumble some incomprehensible words and says afterward that you are cured. And when they still die afterward then it's their fault not healers.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

?

17 November

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 1318
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2010, 10:59:09 AM »
HUMOURAL MEDICINE AND THE MULTIPLICATION OF SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES

"The classification of people into inherent constitutional types became of much greater importance than previously in the 19th. century and reached its height of sophistication towards the beginning of the 20th. century. These developments were primarily driven by the decline in the medical practice of the humoral model, and by scientific discovery of the macro- and micro-nutrient chemicals, which appeared to expand knowledge beyond the simple system of the temperaments, although this information did fit in remarkably well with the metabolic model represented by the functions of the humors.  One of the major researchers in this area was Victor Rocine (1859 - 1943) who by 1908 had developed and implemented a inclusive genotype system of classification which contained twenty distinct inherent constitutional types that correlated perfectly with the classifications of the classical temperaments of Graeco-Arabic Medicine."

http://www.traditionalmedicine.net.au/chapter2.htm

The point of this is that it shows that humoural pathology is not opposed to medical discovery, but is rather enhanced because of it.


 Stupid humans, they always want to understand what makes something tick. And so they discovered bacteria, microbes and  cures and antibiotics. It would have been far easier when they would just listen when someone waves hands above their heads and mumble some incomprehensible words and says afterward that you are cured. And when they still die afterward then it's their fault not healers.

This attitude is a good example of the gross ignorance and failure to understand anything about humourism which aided its abandonment in the nineteenth century and thereby assisted the corresponding growth of degenerative diseases like cancer.

Appeals to antiquity are therefore fallacious.

They are a fallacy.  The notion that humoural medicine is opposed to genuine progress is an appeal to antiquity because such a prejudice assumes that the four humours are false merely because they are ancient.

Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2010, 11:27:49 AM »
in the nineteenth century and thereby assisted the corresponding growth of degenerative diseases like cancer.

Appeals to antiquity are therefore fallacious.

They are a fallacy.  The notion that humoural medicine is opposed to genuine progress is an appeal to antiquity because such a prejudice assumes that the four humours are false merely because they are ancient.
Since I don't see that anyone claimed the humoral medicine is opposed to genuine progress, I conclude that you're attacking a straw-man. Please try to debate the topics without resorting to fallacies.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

?

General Disarray

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2010, 11:35:24 AM »
I see now we have differing definitions of "modern medicine".
You don't want to make an enemy of me. I'm very powerful.

Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2010, 11:52:53 AM »
This attitude is a good example of the gross ignorance and failure to understand anything about humourism which aided its abandonment in the nineteenth century and thereby assisted the corresponding growth of degenerative diseases like cancer.
Do you have any evidence to support your conclusion or do you just wish to use the above 'ad tempum' fallacy?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

?

zork

  • 3319
Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2010, 01:46:41 PM »
Stupid humans, they always want to understand what makes something tick. And so they discovered bacteria, microbes and  cures and antibiotics. It would have been far easier when they would just listen when someone waves hands above their heads and mumble some incomprehensible words and says afterward that you are cured. And when they still die afterward then it's their fault not healers.

This attitude is a good example of the gross ignorance and failure to understand anything about humourism which aided its abandonment in the nineteenth century and thereby assisted the corresponding growth of degenerative diseases like cancer.
  This wasn't attitude, this was more like sarcasm. But I would say that your attitude is a good example of the gross ignorance and failure to understand anything about the modern medicine. Is it your failure to grasp or understand the current life that you are so stuck with stagnant views?
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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General Disarray

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2010, 01:57:20 PM »
Let's go over the facts here, 17 November claims that people don't live longer with modern medicine. I provided one limited example which showed that statement to be false. Here are some more examples.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

These sources, unsurprisingly, show a drastic increase in life expectancy after around 1900, or the very beginnings of "modern medicine". From 1900 to around 1970, it continues to increase drastically, then begins a slow steady rate of increase to the present day. This conclusively shows that humans live longer with modern medicine.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2010, 02:07:56 PM »
I would have to agree that modern medicine prolongs lifespans.
IMO, the better question though, is: are people healthier than they used to be.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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zork

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2010, 02:13:04 PM »
These sources, unsurprisingly, show a drastic increase in life expectancy after around 1900, or the very beginnings of "modern medicine". From 1900 to around 1970, it continues to increase drastically, then begins a slow steady rate of increase to the present day. This conclusively shows that humans live longer with modern medicine.
And don't forget the mortality rate, especially infant/child mortality rate which has decreased also.

I would have to agree that modern medicine prolongs lifespans.
IMO, the better question though, is: are people healthier than they used to be.
I guess the people who care about their health are. It's just that in these days is quite easy do get lazy, eat junk food and forget the physical exercises. And there goes the health.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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General Disarray

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2010, 02:16:16 PM »
Modern medicine has produced cures to a much wider variety of illnesses, along with much better preventative care. So yes, I would say, in general, people are healthier than they used to be.
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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2010, 02:23:10 PM »
Idk tbh. The rates of some diseases among the populations is somewhat alarming and slightly frightening. Especially since some are increasing so much.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2010, 02:29:52 PM »
Idk tbh. The rates of some diseases among the populations is somewhat alarming and slightly frightening. Especially since some are increasing so much.
I have to disagree. You can't get alarmed that, for example, autism rates are up. We changed the definition of autism to include more variations, so we shouldn't be concerned that the numbers went up. When people live longer, they have more time healthy, but still suffer at the end of life some ailment. Let's be glad that we're living long enough to have some of these disease rates.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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General Disarray

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2010, 02:41:04 PM »
Among which populations? All, or just those that don't possess what we would consider "modern medicine"? Some populations are still quite primitive and don't have the same capability to prevent or treat diseases as the 'first world' does.
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Vindictus

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Re: Elizabethan World view Debate
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2010, 02:44:54 PM »
Idk tbh. The rates of some diseases among the populations is somewhat alarming and slightly frightening. Especially since some are increasing so much.

In the Western world, cancer and heart problems are the major killers now.

In years past you'd have a lot more diseases up there, because things like penicillin never existed. Smoking, eating shit food, and just not exercising are all big contributors to heart disease and cancer.

Modern medicine can do amazing things. The average joe can make it look terrible by sitting around, eating McDonalds and smoking. But I'd still argue people are healthier now, as we can easily read the nutritional content of our food and make educated decisions about what we eat, and we have all sorts of vitamins available in single pills.