IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B

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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #900 on: January 26, 2016, 04:19:24 AM »
Please show us where those conclusions are stated.

LOL!!!

Stop wasting my time.


Now; here is a post relating to the OP:

1) Object A = cannon.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = cannon ball.

Propellant P sits between Objects A & B.

When Propellant P expands between them, Objects A & B are thrust apart & motion is produced.

Simple.


However, with a Rocket:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P

3) Object B = ?

There is clearly no visible Object B in the rocket example.

But we know that, for Motion to be produced, Propellant P MUST expand between Two distinct Masses.

So; what non-visible Mass could replace the cannonball as Object B?

The only choice is the enormous, but non-visible Mass of the atmosphere.


Thus we get:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = Atmosphere.

And motion can be produced.

Of course, when the atmosphere is not present - as in the vacuum of space - no motion can be produced.


Not that hard to understand, is it?

Unless it is your job to not understand it...

In which case: Carry On Lying! (with a bit of wiki-vandalism & invisible retro-editing chucked in)
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #901 on: January 26, 2016, 04:50:05 AM »
What is the mass flow rate of the gas as it's freely expanding?

Already explained: it depends upon the pressure of the gas, which determines the amount of pressure potential energy it has stored.

Please do not ask me this again.

Still no reason has been given why gas can't have velocity, is gas weightless?
Under your "model" of gas having no momentum

I never said any of that.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

I simply said that conservation of energy is far more usefully applied to the behaviour of gasses than COM.

Because it is; because they are not solids; and they are compressible.

Enough of your strawmen; the Joule free expansion experiment proves conclusively that a gas-powered rocket cannot function in a vacuum.

Toodle-pip, shpayze-scarecrows!

Please show us where those conclusions are stated.
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #902 on: January 26, 2016, 05:19:38 AM »
What is the mass flow rate of the gas as it's freely expanding?

Already explained: it depends upon the pressure of the gas, which determines the amount of pressure potential energy it has stored.
So you admit that mass flow is relevant.  Good to see that we're making progress.
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #903 on: January 26, 2016, 08:52:38 AM »
And I wonder where that pressure is created For the high pressure mass flow...

As stated free expansion is for ideal gasses. In the sense NO energy is transfered. Actual gas exchanges energy as it passes from pressurized system to vacuum.


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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #904 on: January 26, 2016, 09:22:13 AM »
So you admit that mass flow is relevant.  Good to see that we're making progress.

No I don't & no we're not.

I've already explained this.

As usual.

As stated free expansion is for ideal gasses.

It applies to real gasses too.

Again, I've already explained this.

As usual.

A Finite System cannot create pressure in an Infinite Vacuum.

Basic Physics.

Now; Carry on Lying, Time-Wasters!

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sokarul

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #905 on: January 26, 2016, 09:46:11 AM »
So you admit that mass flow is relevant.  Good to see that we're making progress.

No I don't & no we're not.

I've already explained this.

As usual.

As stated free expansion is for ideal gasses.

It applies to real gasses too.

Again, I've already explained this.

As usual.

A Finite System cannot create pressure in an Infinite Vacuum.

Basic Physics.

Now; Carry on Lying, Time-Wasters!
A finite space cannot contain an infinite vacuum. Therefore you can see why a finite combustion chamber can contain pressure next to an infinite vacuum.
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #906 on: January 26, 2016, 11:24:14 AM »
So you admit that mass flow is relevant.  Good to see that we're making progress.

No I don't & no we're not.

I've already explained this.

As usual.
And, as usual, yor explanation is wrong.

Gas has mass.

Gas is flowing through the combustion chamber.

Mass flow can not be anything but relevant.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #907 on: January 26, 2016, 11:39:12 AM »
Mass flow can not be anything but relevant.

Unless that 'mass' is a gas flowing into a vacuum...

Where free expansion ensures it does no work.

And Newton's 3rd ensures it cannot create a Reaction.

Which I have already explained.

Repeatedly.

As usual.

Goodbye, geriatric Loser.
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #908 on: January 26, 2016, 12:34:53 PM »
Mass flow can not be anything but relevant.

Unless that 'mass' is a gas flowing into a vacuum...
Where the mass is flowing to is quite irrelevant. 

What is relevant is that the gas is flowing through a constricted opening (the throat of the nozzle).

That is unless you want to say that Newton, Bernoulli, Venturi and De Laval were all wrong.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 12:36:55 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #909 on: January 26, 2016, 01:34:14 PM »
Where the mass is flowing to is quite irrelevant. 

Incorrect.

Already explained why.

What is relevant is that the gas is flowing through a constricted opening (the throat of the nozzle).

Incorrect again.

Already explained why.

Again.

That is unless you want to say that Newton, Bernoulli, Venturi and De Laval were all wrong.

No; that's you.

Again.

You can chuck in Joule & Thomson too.

Cos none of em would ever be dumb enough to argue for a Finite system creating pressure in an Infinite vacuum...

That's your job. And it sucks. And you suck at it. And it sucks to be you.

Toodle-pip, Mr. Memory-Hole!
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #910 on: January 26, 2016, 02:55:33 PM »
Where the mass is flowing to is quite irrelevant. 

Incorrect.

Already explained why.
And I already explained why you're wrong. 

The mass of the gas is flowing through the combustion chamber before it freely expands into the infinite vacuum of space, therefore mass flow is affecting the rocket engine before free expansion becomes an issue.

What is relevant is that the gas is flowing through a constricted opening (the throat of the nozzle).

Incorrect again.

Already explained why.

Again.
No matter how many times you explain it wrong, you're still wrong.


That is unless you want to say that Newton, Bernoulli, Venturi and De Laval were all wrong.

No; that's you.

Again.

You can chuck in Joule & Thomson too.

Cos none of em would ever be dumb enough to argue for a Finite system creating pressure in an Infinite vacuum...
That's because none of them would be dumb enough to argue that the combustion chamber of a rocket engine is an infinite vacuum, and neither am I.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #911 on: January 26, 2016, 08:00:21 PM »
The mass of the gas is flowing through the combustion chamber before it freely expands into the infinite vacuum of space, therefore mass flow is affecting the rocket engine before free expansion becomes an issue.

Nonsense.

Gasses naturally flow toward areas of lower pressure via the path of least resistance.

And when that lower pressure is a vacuum they do so without doing any work.

So no, they will not 'affect' either your silly combustion chamber or your shpayze-rokkit enjynn.

I've already explained this, but on another thread.

One that your fraud-mod clown-pal locked.

However, consider it now re-explained & do not bother me with it again.


That is unless you want to say that Newton, Bernoulli, Venturi and De Laval were all wrong.

No; that's you.

Again.

You can chuck in Joule & Thomson too.

Cos none of em would ever be dumb enough to argue for a Finite system creating pressure in an Infinite vacuum...
That's because none of them would be dumb enough to argue that the combustion chamber of a rocket engine is an infinite vacuum, and neither am I.

And neither am I; learn to read.

Your 'combustion chamber' is part of a FINITE SYSTEM.

That FINITE SYSTEM must create pressure against an INFINITE VACUUM in order to produce motion.

Every law of physics says this is impossible.

In summary: stop wasting my time.

Again.
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #912 on: January 26, 2016, 08:53:20 PM »
The mass of the gas is flowing through the combustion chamber before it freely expands into the infinite vacuum of space, therefore mass flow is affecting the rocket engine before free expansion becomes an issue.

Nonsense.

Gasses naturally flow toward areas of lower pressure via the path of least resistance.

And when that lower pressure is a vacuum they do so without doing any work.
How can the gas go from rest to motion if no work is done?  Potential energy of the gas in the tank being converted into kinetic energy of the gas moving towards the infinite void is pretty much the definition of work.

So no, they will not 'affect' either your silly combustion chamber or your shpayze-rokkit enjynn.

I've already explained this, but on another thread.

One that your fraud-mod clown-pal locked.

However, consider it now re-explained & do not bother me with it again.
Sorry, but you were wrong there and you're wrong here.

At least you're consistent.

That is unless you want to say that Newton, Bernoulli, Venturi and De Laval were all wrong.

No; that's you.

Again.

You can chuck in Joule & Thomson too.

Cos none of em would ever be dumb enough to argue for a Finite system creating pressure in an Infinite vacuum...
That's because none of them would be dumb enough to argue that the combustion chamber of a rocket engine is an infinite vacuum, and neither am I.

And neither am I; learn to read.

Your 'combustion chamber' is part of a FINITE SYSTEM.

That FINITE SYSTEM must create pressure against an INFINITE VACUUM in order to produce motion.
Actually, the combustion chamber is part of an OPEN SYSTEM.  Mass that started as a part of the system (fuel and oxidizer in the tanks) is pumped into the finite combustion chamber where it is burned and creates a violently expanding gas that presses on all sides of the chamber as it makes its way through the narrow confines of the throat and then accelerates out the expansion nozzle where it is lost forever to the infinite vacuum of space.

Every law of physics says this is impossible.
Every law of physics says that you're an idiot who should never reproduce.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #913 on: January 26, 2016, 09:06:56 PM »
How can the gas go from rest to motion if no work is done?  Potential energy of the gas in the tank being converted into kinetic energy of the gas moving towards the infinite void is pretty much the definition of work.

You are now directly denying the results of the Joule free expansion experiment.

I knew you'd eventually have to throw all true science out the window in your insane quest to keep your sci-fi shpayze-fantasies alive.

And you've finally done it.

Good work; you Lose, Loser.

Every law of physics says that you're an idiot who should never reproduce.

Yup; Goodbye Science, Hello Primitive Voodoo Curses.

Again; good work.

You Lose again, Two-time Loser & geriatric spook markjo.

Every neutral reader should realise you just screwed the pooch completely here & the 'debate' is over.

But you will carry on your futile argumentation for ever, won't you?

Because you have no choice.

Which will simply provide further evidence that you are pure disinfo.

It's over, old man; toodle, pip, soopah-Losah!
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #914 on: January 27, 2016, 04:30:00 AM »
How can the gas go from rest to motion if no work is done?  Potential energy of the gas in the tank being converted into kinetic energy of the gas moving towards the infinite void is pretty much the definition of work.

You are now directly denying the results of the Joule free expansion experiment.
This is what a Joule free expansion experiment looks like:


This is what a rocket engine looks like:


Do they look the same to you?

I knew you'd eventually have to throw all true science out the window in your insane quest to keep your sci-fi shpayze-fantasies alive.
Me?  You're the one who is throwing out every law of physics except for the one that doesn't apply in your futile attempt to kill space travel.

Why don't you learn the difference between an open system and a closed system and them maybe we can have an intelligent conversation.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #915 on: January 27, 2016, 04:48:50 AM »
Desperate, aren't you?

Fact is that you completely blew it when you wrote this:

Every law of physics says that you're an idiot who should never reproduce.

You are the lowest of the low.

Toodle-pip, Loser!
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #916 on: January 27, 2016, 05:02:48 AM »
You are now directly denying the results of the Joule free expansion experiment.

Joule Fee Expansion experiment that specifically states that the no NET work is done in a CLOSED system.

Let that sink in a while.
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #917 on: January 27, 2016, 05:28:33 AM »
Yes, because writing things in BIG RED CAPS makes the nasty scientific facts go away.

Like I said, all you have left is primitive voodoo curses.

Let that sink in a while.
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sceptimatic

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #918 on: January 27, 2016, 05:31:19 AM »
No external work is done from a rocket's gas entering what we are told is a vacuum.

the only work done is gas molecules freely expanding into a void/zero pressure reaction, meaning there can be no work done at all.
Only the molecule itself can expand to it's full state followed by the next and the next. None of them encounter resistance to their expansion.
They already resisted inside the closed chamber, as a compression force which would have been classes as potential energy in an atmosphere external to that chamber.

Space does not provide that reaction force, so no work and no energy can reach any potential. It shouldn't be hard to grasp if you put your mind to it.

Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #919 on: January 27, 2016, 05:52:00 AM »
No external work is done from a rocket's gas entering what we are told is a vacuum.

the only work done is gas molecules freely expanding into a void/zero pressure reaction, meaning there can be no work done at all.
Only the molecule itself can expand to it's full state followed by the next and the next. None of them encounter resistance to their expansion.
They already resisted inside the closed chamber, as a compression force which would have been classes as potential energy in an atmosphere external to that chamber.

Space does not provide that reaction force, so no work and no energy can reach any potential. It shouldn't be hard to grasp if you put your mind to it.

Wrong.

Gas molecules have mass and the average net velocity of the gas molecules before the system is opened is zero, as they are contained in a closed system.

Once the system is opened the molecules will exit the system and therefore will have an average net velocity in the direction of the opening. To change the velocity the molecules must have accelerated. To accelerate a force must have acted on the molecules. By Newton's third the molecules must have created an equal and opposite force on the container. Thus the container accelerates in the opposite direction.

Free expansion specifically means the expansion of a gas in a closed system. The net velocity at the start is zero and the net velocity at the end is zero. THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO WORK DONE. In a rocket the gas does not have a net velocity of zero and therefore work is done.
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #920 on: January 27, 2016, 06:11:50 AM »
By Newton's third the molecules must have created an equal and opposite force on the container. Thus the container accelerates in the opposite direction.

This is utter nonsense & violates the results of the Joule free expansion experiment, which states no work was done on the system.

It is also the second time you have posted it.

Stop wasting my time.
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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #921 on: January 27, 2016, 06:12:57 AM »
Desperate, aren't you?

Fact is that you completely blew it when you wrote this:

Every law of physics says that you're an idiot who should never reproduce.

You are the lowest of the low.

Toodle-pip, Loser!
So you can't tell the difference between a Joule free expansion experiment and a rocket engine.

No surprise there.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #922 on: January 27, 2016, 06:18:59 AM »
So you can't tell the difference between a Joule free expansion experiment and a rocket engine.

No; you cannot tell the connection between the results of the Joule free expansion experiment & the ability of a rocket to function in a vacuum.

Why?

Because it is your job not to.

No surprise there, either.

Let us also bear in mind that it is you shpayze-cultists who were earlier insisting that both a cannon & a man on a skateboard were 'like a rocket'...

So top marks for hypocrisy as well as ignorance.

Good work!

Toodle-pip, Losers!
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sceptimatic

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #923 on: January 27, 2016, 06:29:35 AM »
Wrong.
Gas molecules have mass and the average net velocity of the gas molecules before the system is opened is zero, as they are contained in a closed system.
Yes, they are compressed into a container and the only work they do is in resisting the pressure from each other in an equal and opposite action/reaction, meaning no real work is done but potential energy is stored.

Once the system is opened the molecules will exit the system and therefore will have an average net velocity in the direction of the opening.
Correct; as long as there is a resistant force acting against those expanding molecules coming from the container. This provides the resistance from that compressed molecule on molecule push which creates a squeeze back. This is where you get the psssssssssssssssssssssssst.

No reaction pressure and no psssssssssssst, just an orderly expansion under no pressure.


To change the velocity the molecules must have accelerated. To accelerate a force must have acted on the molecules.
The container HOLDS the compressed molecules. Open the container at any point and the molecules just expand from the front nearest the opening.
It would be just like footballs rolling out of a conveyor belt in orderly fashion. Like waiting your turn to leave a cinema being careful not to push hard into the next person or be pushed into by another person, hard.
Think of it like one expanded ball at the front having no external resistance, except the one directly behind it expands to touch that and so on and so on. Like a set of beads.
There's only expansion towards the opening and no reaction towards the opposite end.
Now imagine it all happening in a nano second.

By Newton's third the molecules must have created an equal and opposite force on the container. Thus the container accelerates in the opposite direction.
The only force on the container is the compression force in equal terms at the sides slowly expanding as each molecule expands out of the container front. They all expand together creating no work.
Free expansion specifically means the expansion of a gas in a closed system.
There's a lot of meaning's for closed systems. This one you are talking about is the markjo diagram, right?
The container of pressure opened up to a container with vacuum?
No work being done. It's not really a good example but if you say no work is done then how do you expect itr to be done in a supposed space vacuum?

The net velocity at the start is zero and the net velocity at the end is zero. THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO WORK DONE.
This makes no real sense to be fair.

In a rocket the gas does not have a net velocity of zero and therefore work is done.
This is not really saying anything, either.

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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #924 on: January 27, 2016, 06:51:18 AM »
So you can't tell the difference between a Joule free expansion experiment and a rocket engine.

No; you cannot tell the connection between the results of the Joule free expansion experiment & the ability of a rocket to function in a vacuum.
The result of a Joule free expansion experiment is that the net work done is zero once the closed system reaches a state of equilibrium and all forces are balanced.  What do you suppose is happening to the gas before the closed system reaches equilibrium?  Unbalanced forces in the form of a pressure gradient, perhaps?

On the other hand, an operating rocket engine is an open system that is never in a state of equilibrium so there are always unbalanced forces that result in work being done by the system.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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sceptimatic

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #925 on: January 27, 2016, 07:01:19 AM »
I'm going to make one of my ultra special diagrams to show why rockets won't work in what we are told, is space and why they work in atmosphere.

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markjo

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #926 on: January 27, 2016, 07:27:59 AM »
I'm going to make one of my ultra special diagrams to show why rockets won't work in what we are told, is space and why they work in atmosphere.
It seems that I've heard that before, but I can't recall ever seeing one of your "ultra special diagrams".  In fact, I don't recall ever seeing any of your plain old diagrams either.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #927 on: January 27, 2016, 08:15:58 AM »
What do you suppose is happening to the gas before the closed system reaches equilibrium?  Unbalanced forces in the form of a pressure gradient, perhaps?

If what you describe, and how you propose a rocket works, were true then the Joule free expansion experiment equipment would be forced sideways as the pressures equalised.

Look at YOUR diagram:



Why does the part marked gas NOT move AT ALL when the valve is opened?

According to YOUR half-baked ideas it SHOULD.

But it DOES NOT.

BECAUSE NO WORK IS DONE ON THE SYSTEM AT ALL.

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?

NOW STOP WASTING MY TIME!

Oh, and let's have another look at this, you disgusting little wretch:

Every law of physics says that you're an idiot who should never reproduce.

Yeah; that's about your level, Hypnotoad...

As low as it's possible to get.

Get back to JREF, Loser.
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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #928 on: January 27, 2016, 08:52:22 AM »
What do you suppose is happening to the gas before the closed system reaches equilibrium?  Unbalanced forces in the form of a pressure gradient, perhaps?

If what you describe, and how you propose a rocket works, were true then the Joule free expansion experiment equipment would be forced sideways as the pressures equalised.

Look at YOUR diagram:



Why does the part marked gas NOT move AT ALL when the valve is opened?

According to YOUR half-baked ideas it SHOULD.


Once the valve opens then the pressure of gas will also be acting upon the opposite wall (currently marked vacuum).....
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Papa Legba

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Re: IN A ROCKET SYSTEM, THE FUEL IS OBJECT B
« Reply #929 on: January 27, 2016, 09:11:05 AM »
You contradict one another, as usual.

Stop wasting my time posting more bullshit to cover up other bullshitter's bullshit.

NO WORK IS DONE ON THE SYSTEM.

It does not get any plainer than that.


Now; here is a post relating to the OP:

1) Object A = cannon.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = cannon ball.

Propellant P sits between Objects A & B.

When Propellant P expands between them, Objects A & B are thrust apart & motion is produced.

Simple.


However, with a Rocket:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P

3) Object B = ?

There is clearly no visible Object B in the rocket example.

But we know that, for Motion to be produced, Propellant P MUST expand between Two distinct Masses.

So; what non-visible Mass could replace the cannonball as Object B?

The only choice is the enormous, but non-visible Mass of the atmosphere.


Thus we get:

1) Object A = Rocket.

2) Propellant = P.

3) Object B = Atmosphere.

And motion can be produced.

Of course, when the atmosphere is not present - as in the vacuum of space - no motion can be produced.


Not that hard to understand, is it?

Unless it is your job to not understand it...

In which case: Carry On Lying! (with a bit of wiki-vandalism & invisible retro-editing chucked in)
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!