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What is the source of the FES map in the FAQ?

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The source of FES's map

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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2012, 04:57:46 PM »
Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
No. For the third time, the globe is the base map. It has no distortions in cartographic terms. It is not a projection.
How do you map an oblate spheroid onto a sphere with no distortions? You are wrong. You have no perfect map. Do not demand one from me.
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #151 on: May 17, 2012, 05:34:31 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
No. For the third time, the globe is the base map. It has no distortions in cartographic terms. It is not a projection.
How do you map an oblate spheroid onto a sphere with no distortions? You are wrong. You have no perfect map. Do not demand one from me.

I have an oblate spheroid globe.  Do you have a map without distortion?
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #152 on: May 17, 2012, 05:52:18 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
No. For the third time, the globe is the base map. It has no distortions in cartographic terms. It is not a projection.
How do you map an oblate spheroid onto a sphere with no distortions? You are wrong. You have no perfect map. Do not demand one from me.

You said that you distort maps, not that your maps are imperfect. I am not demanding a perfect map. I am asking for the map upon which your distortions are based. For RE, that is the globe map. What is yours?
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The Knowledge

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2012, 06:07:28 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: The Knowledge on May 17, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
Quote from: The Knowledge on May 17, 2012, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:12:14 PM
Planets are not only visible at certain times of the year.

Really? Could you see Saturn in April then?
Apparently that was the best time to see it this year.
http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/give-me-five-minutes-ill-give-you-saturn

Correct. Score a point. And will you be able to see it six months later?
Are you suggesting that Saturn disappears from view every October?

I note that you don't answer the question. Your concession that you are wrong about planets being visible all year round is accepted.
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hoppy

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #154 on: May 17, 2012, 06:28:33 PM »
Those are good maps Thork. Another FET victory.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #155 on: May 17, 2012, 09:42:35 PM »
Quote from: zarg on May 15, 2012, 09:40:17 PM
Answer this question:

Quote from: zarg on May 09, 2012, 10:19:46 PM
What exactly are you trying to say? That Trekky was a lost RE'er when he uploaded Flat_earth.jpg, and a year later he had reformed and uploaded a True Zetetic rendering, Flat_earth.png?


Please work on your chronology, phrasing, etc. You're trying to conflate different claims, and roll the clock back on everything I've said since that quote. Ain't gonna work.


All I am saying is that Trekky can reasonably be construed as part of FES at the time he uploaded the map. That's all I have to say, because it's all Tom actually said.


Quote from: zarg on May 15, 2012, 09:40:17 PM
How predictably weasely of you.


Sorry? ???


Are you suggesting it's somehow less "weasely" to make up stuff, or pretend someone said something they didn't say? With that last statement you're heading into the absurd, zarg.


Quote from: zarg on May 15, 2012, 09:40:17 PM
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on May 14, 2012, 06:12:29 PM
Trekky's map is derived from Rowbotham and Voliva's maps.

Thanks for your vote!


Glad we agree.
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #156 on: May 17, 2012, 11:37:36 PM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore on May 17, 2012, 09:42:35 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 15, 2012, 09:40:17 PM
Answer this question:

Quote from: zarg on May 09, 2012, 10:19:46 PM
What exactly are you trying to say? That Trekky was a lost RE'er when he uploaded Flat_earth.jpg, and a year later he had reformed and uploaded a True Zetetic rendering, Flat_earth.png?


Please work on your chronology, phrasing, etc. You're trying to conflate different claims, and roll the clock back on everything I've said since that quote. Ain't gonna work.


All I am saying is that Trekky can reasonably be construed as part of FES at the time he uploaded the map. That's all I have to say, because it's all Tom actually said.

Had the file from 2008 been uploaded in 2007, you would not have that case at all. So, indeed, this question is relevant to your claim. You are dodging it, because you know full well that the necessary implication is ludicrous.



Quote from: Lord Wilmore on May 17, 2012, 09:42:35 PM
Are you suggesting it's somehow less "weasely" to make up stuff, or pretend someone said something they didn't say?

I am not the one doing so. You are, and you were being weasely by suddenly pretending that you're undecided on the matter when confronted with the suggestion to find out the actual truth.

Bottom line:
Do you claim that Tom does not claim that it is likely that the UN stole their map design from the FES? Yes or no.
Do you claim that Tom does not claim that the northern azimuthal formula was designed to copy a FES design? Yes or no.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #157 on: May 17, 2012, 11:46:28 PM »
More importantly, how is it day light for roughly 12 hours anywhere on the Earth?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 12:25:45 AM by jroa »
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #158 on: May 18, 2012, 01:10:49 AM »
Quote from: The Knowledge on May 17, 2012, 06:07:28 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: The Knowledge on May 17, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
Quote from: The Knowledge on May 17, 2012, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:12:14 PM
Planets are not only visible at certain times of the year.

Really? Could you see Saturn in April then?
Apparently that was the best time to see it this year.
http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/give-me-five-minutes-ill-give-you-saturn

Correct. Score a point. And will you be able to see it six months later?
Are you suggesting that Saturn disappears from view every October?

I note that you don't answer the question. Your concession that you are wrong about planets being visible all year round is accepted.
http://www.rif.org/

I didn't say they were visible all year round. I said
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 02:12:14 PM
Planets are not only visible at certain times of the year.
which is something different entirely. Saturn doesn't always disappear in October. However this thread is about maps, not the solar sytem. Maybe you would like to make an on topic comment next time?

Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit on May 17, 2012, 05:34:31 PM
I have an oblate spheroid globe.
Can you link me to the manufacturer's or vendor's website so as I may examine this rare globe for myself?

Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
No. For the third time, the globe is the base map. It has no distortions in cartographic terms. It is not a projection.
How do you map an oblate spheroid onto a sphere with no distortions? You are wrong. You have no perfect map. Do not demand one from me.

I am asking for the map upon which your distortions are based. For RE, that is the globe map. What is yours?
And I have told you several times that there is such a map in the FAQ. Its not perfect. It has distortion. Just like your globes. Not having a perfect map is in no way proof that earth cannot be flat. You don't have a non-distorted version of an oblate spheroid either. Why are you making me repeat myself? Its very simple.

Quote from: jroa on May 17, 2012, 11:46:28 PM
More importantly, how is it day light for roughly 12 hours anywhere on the Earth?
Stop moving the goal posts. Go make another thread if you want to change the topic entirely. Alternatively use the search feature. That subject appears multiple times.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 01:19:04 AM by Thork »
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #159 on: May 18, 2012, 08:25:39 AM »
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 11:32:57 AM
Why can't we distort maps as well? If I want to make the polar regions more prominent, I'll use a Mercator. Distorting maps is just an aid to help the reader.

Don't you like my maps? That night one took some time to make.  :(

You can distort maps but distorting a FE map is pointless, there should be only a scale effect. And if there was a distorsion, it should be indicated somewhere how was done the distorsion.

Mercator projection is the projection of a sphere on a plane, why should it be relevant for the projection of a flat Earth on a plane (scale effect)?
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #160 on: May 18, 2012, 10:52:14 AM »
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 08:25:39 AM
You can distort maps but distorting a FE map is pointless, there should be only a scale effect. And if there was a distorsion, it should be indicated somewhere how was done the distorsion.

Mercator projection is the projection of a sphere on a plane, why should it be relevant for the projection of a flat Earth on a plane (scale effect)?

Lets assume the earth is a finite flat disc. Then if you want to make it into an oblong map so it fits nicely on an oblong piece of paper, something like a Mercator projection would suit you very nicely. Maybe you are interested in a specific area. A Lambert conical might help. It doesn't matter what shape earth is, maps would be distorted for the users convenience anyway. Equal area, equal distance, maybe enhancing/enlarging the Northern hemisphere if that is the area of interest etc etc.

But you cannot demand a non-distorted map and then cry that without one its proof earth can't be flat, when you are unable to produce a non-distorted map for RET. Can we end this now? There must be something more interesting to talk about. This thread has long over run its useful life. You are just making me repeat everything.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 10:54:03 AM by Thork »
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #161 on: May 18, 2012, 01:03:47 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:10:49 AM
Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: Thork on May 17, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 17, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
No. For the third time, the globe is the base map. It has no distortions in cartographic terms. It is not a projection.
How do you map an oblate spheroid onto a sphere with no distortions? You are wrong. You have no perfect map. Do not demand one from me.

I am asking for the map upon which your distortions are based. For RE, that is the globe map. What is yours?
And I have told you several times that there is such a map in the FAQ. Its not perfect. It has distortion. Just like your globes. Not having a perfect map is in no way proof that earth cannot be flat. You don't have a non-distorted version of an oblate spheroid either. Why are you making me repeat myself? Its very simple.

Again, I am not asking for a perfect map. Distortion does not mean "less than perfect". Distortion is a deliberate tool in cartography. You clearly implied that your maps were deliberately distorted when you said "If I want to make the polar regions more prominent, I'll use a Mercator. Distorting maps is just an aid to help the reader."

In RET, we start with the globe and apply transformations as follows: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MercatorProjection.html

Now tell me the process for FET. What is the original map and what transformations do you apply to that original to result in your distorted maps?
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #162 on: May 18, 2012, 01:09:27 PM »
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:03:47 PM
What is the original map and what transformations do you apply to that original to result in your distorted maps?
What transformations do you apply to an oblate spheroid to make a globe? Is that an easy thing to answer? It doesn't even make any sense as a question. What do you want? A complex array of millions of digits? A formula? You provide me with the 'transformations' to get an oblate spheroid mapped to a globe. Otherwise desist this stupid line of questioning.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 01:13:09 PM by Thork »
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #163 on: May 18, 2012, 01:13:57 PM »
We apply no transformations. It is therefore not distorted, even if it's not a completely flawless rendering of reality. What part of distortion does not mean imperfect do you not understand?

What is your base map and how do you transform it to produce the others?
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #164 on: May 18, 2012, 01:15:58 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 10:52:14 AM

But you cannot demand a non-distorted map and then cry that without one its proof earth can't be flat, when you are unable to produce a non-distorted map for RET. Can we end this now? There must be something more interesting to talk about. This thread has long over run its useful life. You are just making me repeat everything.

This comparison is plain stupid.

If I need a non-distorted map of the Earth, I use a globe.
If I need a non-distorted map of FE, there's none.
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #165 on: May 18, 2012, 01:18:48 PM »
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
We apply no transformations. It is therefore not distorted, even if it's not a completely flawless rendering of reality.
You apply no transformations to make an oblate spheroid fit on a globe? Now you are just lying.

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
What is your base map and how do you transform it to produce the others?
How do you transform an oblate spheroid onto a globe? Please answer. Then I can reply in kind for FE. With a multi-million digit array or a several page formula. I would be interested in seeing your effort. Its obviously an easy thing to conjure as you keep asking. Please show me how you 'transform' and oblate spheroid on to a globe.

Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:15:58 PM
If I need a non-distorted map of the Earth, I use a globe.
But of course a globe isn't an oblate spheroid. So it was distorted. ::)
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #166 on: May 18, 2012, 01:26:18 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:18:48 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
We apply no transformations. It is therefore not distorted, even if it's not a completely flawless rendering of reality.
You apply no transformations to make an oblate spheroid fit on a globe? Now you are just lying.

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
What is your base map and how do you transform it to produce the others?
How do you transform an oblate spheroid onto a globe? Please answer. Then I can reply in kind for FE. With a multi-million digit array or a several page formula. I would be interested in seeing your effort. Its obviously an easy thing to conjure as you keep asking. Please show me how you 'transform' and oblate spheroid on to a globe.

Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:15:58 PM
If I need a non-distorted map of the Earth, I use a globe.
But of course a globe isn't an oblate spheroid. So it was distorted. ::)

If I need a non-distorted map of FE, there's none.
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #167 on: May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:18:48 PM
You apply no transformations to make an oblate spheroid fit on a globe? Now you are just lying.

No I'm not. Please learn the terminology. We're talking about geometry. You claimed to be a cartographer, remember? Transformation is like the one I showed in the wolfram mathworld link. The Mercator is mathematically derived from the globe. The globe is not mathematically derived from any other map. Thus, it's not a transformation.


Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
How do you transform an oblate spheroid onto a globe? Please answer.

By approximation. We believe the shape of Earth is sufficiently spherical that mapping it onto a sphere is useful for navigation. Any imperfections in the sphere model are transferred to other projections such as Mercator because they are simply distortions.

You claim to use distortion as an aid. In RET we do the same. I have shown you our baseline that we distort and the method we use to distort it. All I'm asking is for the same from you.
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #168 on: May 18, 2012, 01:30:51 PM »
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:26:18 PM
If I need a non-distorted map of FE, there's none.
If I need an non-distorted RE map, there's none. :'(
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #169 on: May 18, 2012, 01:32:20 PM »
Please leave, research, and come back when you learn what distortion is.
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #170 on: May 18, 2012, 01:32:59 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:26:18 PM
If I need a non-distorted map of FE, there's none.
If I need an non-distorted RE map, there's none. :'(

With a good approximation, there are some.

And still no FE map.
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #171 on: May 18, 2012, 01:39:05 PM »
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
The globe is not mathematically derived from any other map. Thus, it's not a transformation.
So the globe is not derived from an oblate spheroid? How then can you claim that its a map of earth?

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
By approximation. We believe the shape of Earth is sufficiently spherical that mapping it onto a sphere is useful for navigation.
Well by approximation we think the earth is a flat disk. We believe its sufficiently flat and disk shaped that mapping it as a disk is useful for navigation. Please refer to the FAQ for such a map.

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
You claim to use distortion as an aid. In RET we do the same. I have shown you our baseline that we distort and the method we use to distort it. All I'm asking is for the same from you.
No, you haven't showed me how you convert an oblate spheroid into a globe.

Are you really this stupid? I mean really? Its several pages later and you still seem to be struggling with the basics.

You don't think earth is a globe. You think its an oblate spheroid. So your 'baseline' or starting point is an oblate spheroid.

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:32:20 PM
Please leave, research, and come back when you learn what distortion is.
please leave, research and come back when you know the difference between an oblate spheroid and a sphere.

Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:32:59 PM
With a good approximation, there are some.

And still no FE map.
Please see the FAQ. There is a great approximation of an FE earth mapped out there.
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #172 on: May 18, 2012, 01:44:35 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
The globe is not mathematically derived from any other map. Thus, it's not a transformation.
So the globe is not derived from an oblate spheroid? How then can you claim that its a map of earth?

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
By approximation. We believe the shape of Earth is sufficiently spherical that mapping it onto a sphere is useful for navigation.
Well by approximation we think the earth is a flat disk. We believe its sufficiently flat and disk shaped that mapping it as a disk is useful for navigation. Please refer to the FAQ for such a map.

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
You claim to use distortion as an aid. In RET we do the same. I have shown you our baseline that we distort and the method we use to distort it. All I'm asking is for the same from you.
No, you haven't showed me how you convert an oblate spheroid into a globe.

Are you really this stupid? I mean really? Its several pages later and you still seem to be struggling with the basics.

You don't think earth is a globe. You think its an oblate spheroid. So your 'baseline' or starting point is an oblate spheroid.

Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:32:20 PM
Please leave, research, and come back when you learn what distortion is.
please leave, research and come back when you know the difference between an oblate spheroid and a sphere.

Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:32:59 PM
With a good approximation, there are some.

And still no FE map.
Please see the FAQ. There is a great approximation of an FE earth mapped out there.

Your FE map has got distances and shapes utterly wrong.

Please correct the FAQ with a suitable map.
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #173 on: May 18, 2012, 01:46:07 PM »
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:44:35 PM
Your FE map has got distances and shapes utterly wrong.
It is perfectly fine to navigate with, so your objection must be incorrect.
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #174 on: May 18, 2012, 01:57:26 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:46:07 PM
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:44:35 PM
Your FE map has got distances and shapes utterly wrong.
It is perfectly fine to navigate with, so your objection must be incorrect.

I wonder how people in the Southern hemisphere would travel with your maps!

You shold try following the numerous sail boat races which start in Europe and go round Antartica. Check the times and the distances. Compare with your maps.
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #175 on: May 18, 2012, 02:00:07 PM »
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:57:26 PM
You shold try following the numerous sail boat races which start in Europe and go round Antartica. Check the times and the distances. Compare with your maps.
You should try making a new thread if you want to talk about southern hemisphere discrepancies. Alternatively you could just use the search feature and read one of dozens of threads with that exact conundrum answered.
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EmperorZhark

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #176 on: May 18, 2012, 03:13:26 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 02:00:07 PM
Quote from: EmperorZhark on May 18, 2012, 01:57:26 PM
You shold try following the numerous sail boat races which start in Europe and go round Antartica. Check the times and the distances. Compare with your maps.
You should try making a new thread if you want to talk about southern hemisphere discrepancies. Alternatively you could just use the search feature and read one of dozens of threads with that exact conundrum answered.

None of the things said has ever made a FE map plausible.
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #177 on: May 18, 2012, 10:43:15 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
The globe is not mathematically derived from any other map. Thus, it's not a transformation.
So the globe is not derived from an oblate spheroid? How then can you claim that its a map of earth?

Read what you just replied to again. An oblate spheroid is not a map.


Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
Well by approximation we think the earth is a flat disk. We believe its sufficiently flat and disk shaped that mapping it as a disk is useful for navigation. Please refer to the FAQ for such a map.

Please clarify whether the map in the FAQ is the baseline, or a projection.


Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: zarg on May 18, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
You claim to use distortion as an aid. In RET we do the same. I have shown you our baseline that we distort and the method we use to distort it. All I'm asking is for the same from you.
No, you haven't showed me how you convert an oblate spheroid into a globe.

The globe is our baseline that we distort to create projections. Do you understand what these words mean?


Quote from: Thork on May 18, 2012, 01:39:05 PM
So your 'baseline' or starting point is an oblate spheroid.

I'll take that as a no.

The globe is the map that we start from. I am asking which map you start from, how it was developed, and how you transform it to produce your projections.
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Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.
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Thork

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #178 on: May 19, 2012, 02:01:36 AM »
For the last two pages I have patiently humoured you both by answering the same question repeatedly reworded again and again. I honestly thought you would get the message and drop the thread. But you haven't. You are going to keep rewording it and asking again and again in the hope I might say "Sorry you were right after all". Its not going to happen, but neither am I going to continue this. If its just about having the last word ... its yours. If you think us leaving an unanswered question makes FET look bad then do it. Ask again for a non-distorted FE map ignoring the fact that you don't have a non-distorted RET one either. But I have had enough. You've nothing new to say on the matter and this is very wearisome.
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #179 on: May 19, 2012, 12:57:30 PM »
Quote from: Thork on May 19, 2012, 02:01:36 AM
Ask again for a non-distorted FE map ignoring the fact that you don't have a non-distorted RET one either.

The true nature of the earth has nothing to do with whether a map is distorted. Learn a thing or two about cartography and try to wrap your thick head around what is meant by a "distorted map".

The globe is the map that we start from. I am asking which map you start from, how it was developed, and how you transform it to produce your projections.
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Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.
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