At what point did this 'Conspiracy' start?

Yeah I read the thread. It didn't convince me of much, except that FE'rs can't really agree on alot. Is there a specific part of that thread you're refering too?

There's no mention of Wilkes, either.

I was refering to my post, which does mention Wilkes.

Sorry Goldstein, but you don't know enough about the history of globularism. Your argument suffers as a result. Globularism was first invented by the professional Greek wrestler, Plato, in around 400 BC.

Circumnavigation has never played a role in proving the Earth to be a globe - it couldn't (look at a map of the Flat Earth) - and the misconception that, to quote the famous nursery rhyme, "People still thought the world was flat, can you even imagine that?" is addressed in Christine Garwood's FE:HoaIA. If you want to talk Flat Earth history, I recommend you buy it, there's a link at the top of every forum page.

Some people, throughout history, have clung to the Ancient Greek delusion of a spherical Earth since its inception.

Sorry Goldstein, but you don't know enough about the history of globularism. Your argument suffers as a result. Globularism was first invented by the professional Greek wrestler, Plato, in around 400 BC.

Circumnavigation has never played a role in proving the Earth to be a globe - it couldn't (look at a map of the Flat Earth)

Some people, throughout history, have clung to the Ancient Greek delusion of a spherical Earth since its inception.

You are quite correct, plato surmised, and Eratosthenes confirmed. Pretty smart guy for his time.

A flat map has nothing to do with circumnavigation. You can, and they did, despite your silly notions.

Quote from: Dogplatter on June 19, 2008, 12:43:05 PM

Sorry Goldstein, but you don't know enough about the history of globularism. Your argument suffers as a result. Globularism was first invented by the professional Greek wrestler, Plato, in around 400 BC.

Circumnavigation has never played a role in proving the Earth to be a globe - it couldn't (look at a map of the Flat Earth)

Some people, throughout history, have clung to the Ancient Greek delusion of a spherical Earth since its inception.

You are quite correct, plato surmised, and Eratosthenes confirmed.

No, Eratosthenes confirmed nothing except that if the earth were a sphere its circumference would be something close to 25,000 miles.

So are we saying that the globularist was created by Plato in 400 BC? How (and why) did Plato manage to keep this conspiracy alive?

Claiming that the Earth is a sphere does not indicate intentional lying. Plato was just deluded, as have been, frankly, most globularists in the two millenia following his initial error. I'm sure that Plato sincerely believed the world was a sphere. He also sincerely believed, against all observable evidence, that everything in the world was an illusory reflection of a magical spirit world.

People who are wrong about things aren't always deliberately lying.

Quote from: goldstein on June 19, 2008, 02:28:31 PM

So are we saying that the globularist was created by Plato in 400 BC? How (and why) did Plato manage to keep this conspiracy alive?

Claiming that the Earth is a sphere does not indicate intentional lying. Plato was just deluded, as have been, frankly, most globularists in the two millenia following his initial error. I'm sure that Plato sincerely believed the world was a sphere. He also sincerely believed, against all observable evidence, that everything in the world was an illusory reflection of a magical spirit world.

People who are wrong about things aren't always deliberately lying.

QFT

The purpose of this thread is to establish "at what point did this conspiracy start". Let's stick to that issue. You may want to go forward by showing the point at which the "deluded" teachings of Plato became part of the conspiracy. And why.

My vote is already cast - the collaboration of Alfred Russel Wallace, John Walsh and George Airy represents the birth of what would later become the space Conspiracy, but I'm not ruling out possible previous cons such as the Bavarian globemaker one which Ski is arguing for, I'm strictly agnostic on those.

Why create a conspiracy to conceal an idea that is already universally rejected?

Because it was in Victorian Britain, the society in which all three men lived, in which a group of brilliant individuals were beginning to publish groundbreaking new literature challenging the lies of globularism. Not content with honourable debate, the three plotted in order to find ways to discredit, bankrupt and imprison leading Zeteticists for their own monetary gain.

Goldstein, you need to make a distinction between conspiracies and beliefs. People probably genuinely held the belief that the earth was round, just as some people believed the earth was flat. No-one could offer any real proof, and it really wasn't until the advent of organised government in the 19th century that you begin to see a true conspiracy emerging. It is at this point that governments aquire the power and reach to project a conspiracy, and to my mind it is unlikely that any conspiracy as such existed before, at the earliest, the 18th century.

Quote from: goldstein on June 20, 2008, 05:02:53 AM

Why create a conspiracy to conceal an idea that is already universally rejected?

Because it was in Victorian Britain, the society in which all three men lived, in which a group of brilliant individuals were beginning to publish groundbreaking new literature challenging the lies of globularism. Not content with honourable debate, the three plotted in order to find ways to discredit, bankrupt and imprison leading Zeteticists for their own monetary gain.

Then: Oh, so three men wanted to earn some coin and get some Zeteticists down
Today: A global (or planal?) conspiracy which has grown to a massive size, and includes almost every government of the world.

How did it get this far?

We're all specualting as to the origins of the conspiracy. I really don't think there was any conspiracy before dominant government; it is probable that RE theory and science gained credibility, and was BELIEVED even by the governments, just as FE theory was once believed and given credence by the establishment.

At some point it must have become clear to the major governments that what they had said was wrong, and the particulars of a flaty earth must in some way threaten those governments or else maintaining the conspiracy must benefit them.

He also sincerely believed, against all observable evidence, that everything in the world was an illusory reflection of a magical spirit world.

People who are wrong about things aren't always deliberately lying.

All observable evidence? Not really. Allegory of the Cave certainly explains the concept enough.

All observable evidence? Not really. Allegory of the Cave certainly explains the concept enough.

Where is the observable evidence that the world of forms exists? The allegory of the cave explains roughly what Plato means, but provides absolutely zero evidence that his claims are true. Plato was one of the biggest fantasists in history, and it's hardly surprising that globularism is one theory attributable to his wild imagination and total disregard for empirical proof.

Human perception isn't enough evidence for you?

Human perception isn't enough evidence for you?

No, humen's are flawfull, they are unrelaileble.

Human perception isn't enough evidence for you?

Forgive me, but my perception doesn't stronly point to the idea that everything which exists mirrors an unseeable, unknowable world beyond that which is experienced.

I am so very glad this forum is a joke!  I would hate to think that there are people on this sphere we call earth that actually think the world is flat!  I know you all really cant be that ignorant!  Thank God this is a Joke!  It's funny how some people actually fall for your joke and think you guys actually think the world is flat!  They would have to be the most naive people on the globe to believe you guys actually think the ball shaped planet Earth is flat!
                     It's a great joke!  Keep it up!   The world needs phony forums like this to keep us smiling!
                                    I am just glad that all of you truly understand that the world is round!
                     Take it easy!         Moon Unit

I am so very glad this forum is a joke!  I would hate to think that there are people on this sphere we call earth that actually think the world is flat!  I know you all really cant be that ignorant!  Thank God this is a Joke!  It's funny how some people actually fall for your joke and think you guys actually think the world is flat!  They would have to be the most naive people on the globe to believe you guys actually think the ball shaped planet Earth is flat!
                     It's a great joke!  Keep it up!   The world needs phony forums like this to keep us smiling!
                                    I am just glad that all of you truly understand that the world is round!
                     Take it easy!         Moon Unit

Bitch.

Bitch.

again with the insoults 

Quote from: taters343 on June 21, 2008, 12:04:52 PM

Bitch.

again with the insoults 

have fun.

Thats a bit harsh Roundy, howsabout he just maims himself?

I guess that would be good enough, as long as it's for life.  Whatever.

I am so very glad this forum is a joke!  I would hate to think that there are people on this sphere we call earth that actually think the world is flat!  I know you all really cant be that ignorant!  Thank God this is a Joke!  It's funny how some people actually fall for your joke and think you guys actually think the world is flat!  They would have to be the most naive people on the globe to believe you guys actually think the ball shaped planet Earth is flat!
                     It's a great joke!  Keep it up!   The world needs phony forums like this to keep us smiling!
                                    I am just glad that all of you truly understand that the world is round!
                     Take it easy!         Moon Unit

Enjoy your unattended ban.

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 20, 2008, 07:25:43 AM

No-one could offer any real proof...

Apart from the fact that stars and other astrological bodies move in a radial fashion across the sky as one moves over the surface of the earth. The ancient greeks figured it out over 2000 years ago, but a complete first hand proof was only available in the 16th century.

It's difficult to imagine how a flat earth would threaten a government, or how a round earth would benefit them. Governments are only really interested in controlling people and (re)distributing money (probably a trite summary but hey...) Whether the earth was round or flat they would still want to raise taxes and lock up criminals. If having a round earth enabled Sailors to navigate the seas better and bring in more goods and money to the government, all the better.

Besides, this is all really just terrible speculation. There's not one gram of evidence that any government took this action.

Well, that is the point. We don't know why the conspiracy exists, but as we can see the earth is flat, we know there has to be one.

Taters, Gayer, Charlie and Roundy,

Please stop derailing threads in FED&D/FEQ&C, or there will be trouble. Gayer and Roundy should certainly know better.

Sorry about that. I was just a bit pissed about that troll posting the same thing in multiple threads in the serious forums. No actions were being taken to prevent him form doing so and I just felt a sudden urg to insult him.

But that's nonsense circular reasoning, as has been pointed out before.

Nope, just commen. Sense. I'm sitting in a multi storey office right now, and I can see the earth is flat. It looks flat. Why should I believe any different? Because various authorities tell me to? No thanks. They must be lying. Therefore, conspiracy.

It's not common sense, it's a linchpin part of the wonko circular reasoning used by people on this board.

1. I assume the earth is flat.
2. Everyone disagrees says the earth is round.
3. Everyone is part of conspiracy.
4. Everyone is wrong (see 1)
5. Therefore earth is flat.

If you looked a little further beyond the end of your nose you might be surprised by what you find.

I don't assume, I can see it. That's not an assumption, but a sound judgement based on first hand evidence, rather than statements made by people I don't know based on mathematics and 'science' I don't understand. I'm not into copy-pasting science from wikipedia, or pretending to understand things I don't. All I know is that every aspect of my day to day life conforms to the idea of a Flat Earth, including the view from my office window. RE also fits in with my day to day life, but doesn't make sense from my office window. So, based on what I can see and judge (as opposed to what a space agency from another country tells me), FE makes more sense.

Taters, Gayer, Charlie and Roundy,

Please stop derailing threads in FED&D/FEQ&C, or there will be trouble. Gayer and Roundy should certainly know better.

Sorry, trolls were pissing me off too. And I was bored. I'll be good now.

Quote from: NEEMAN on June 23, 2008, 08:46:56 AM

All I know is that every aspect of my day to day life conforms to the idea of a Flat Earth, including the view from my office window.

Hopefully your view will change when you get promoted (upwards).

As this is summer work, my chances of promotion are slim. But I'll let you know if the earth looks any rounder in Sweden, where I'll be studying ome autumn.