Looking to buy a new computer

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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2012, 08:17:11 AM »
I don't think you will listen though.
32GB is insane. Just sayin'.

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2012, 08:20:20 AM »
I don't think you will listen though.
32GB is insane. Just sayin'.

Noted, but more noteworthy is the fact that you completely missed my reason for selecting that much RAM. If you can present a case for 32 GiB of RAM being insane, having read and understood said reason, I will be more likely to listen.
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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2012, 08:29:53 AM »
If you can present a case for 32 GiB of RAM being insane, having read and understood said reason, I will be more likely to listen.

On another site in response to a muppet looking to stuff just 12GB into his PC using VMs as justification
Quote from: http://superuser.com/questions/178449/how-much-ram-do-i-need-for-software-development
You have 12 GB and thus room for one or two VM's?! Woah... a colleague of mine used to develop on a client machine that had 2GB RAM working with 3 VMs at once each hosting a dev environment... 
Look, no girl is going to care that you have 32Gb of RAM in your PC. It won't impress them and your work buddies will be like "32GB wtf" ... "inorite?".
If you have $300 burning a hole in your pocket give it to a charity. They would actually use it. You won't use 32Gb.

How about you now produce some evidence that you do need 32gb. Not 24 or 16 or 12 or even 8. But 32GB!


All jokes aside, you're just pissing your cash up the wall. 8Gb is twice as much as I think you need and a quarter of the cost even for the fast stuff.

When I built my current PC I nearly put 8Gb in. Lord Dave talked me out of it. He was right. I've never even got close to the 4Gb I have instead and even though I paid an extra $10 for CL8 Ram I run it on CL9 timings anyway. Its fast enough. With the SSD everything my PC does is instant anyway.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 08:33:52 AM by Thork »

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markjo

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2012, 08:41:37 AM »
I don't think you will listen though.
32GB is insane. Just sayin'.
Quote from: Bill Gates (supposedly)
640K ought to be enough for anyone.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2012, 08:43:07 AM »
I don't think you will listen though.
32GB is insane. Just sayin'.
Quote from: Bill Gates (supposedly)
640K ought to be enough for anyone.
I don't think Bill had Vista in mind when he said that.

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2012, 08:47:08 AM »
On another site in response to a muppet looking to stuff just 12GB into his PC using VMs as justification
Quote from: http://superuser.com/questions/178449/how-much-ram-do-i-need-for-software-development
You have 12 GB and thus room for one or two VM's?! Woah... a colleague of mine used to develop on a client machine that had 2GB RAM working with 3 VMs at once each hosting a dev environment... 

Indeed. But if all goes to plan, what I'm going to be running in a VM isn't a dev environment, but games on Windows 7. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

That said, 32 GiB may still be excessive. I'm just not sure how many VMs I want to run; there are at least three operating systems (GNU, OpenBSD and Windows) that I'd like to run inside VMs on the Linux host, but I'm sure I'll discover more interesting systems as time goes on.

Look, no girl is going to care that you have 32Gb of RAM in your PC. It won't impress them and your work buddies will be like "32GB wtf" ... "inorite?".

Irrelevant.

If you have $300 burning a hole in your pocket give it to a charity. They would actually use it. You won't use 32Gb.

Perhaps.

How about you now produce some evidence that you do need 32gb. Not 24 or 16 or 12 or even 8. But 32GB!

Secondarily to running VMs is the issue of the operating system's file system cache in RAM. A lot of people have an SSD solely for the purpose of caching frequently used files on their hard drive; think of this as the same thing but in RAM. I'd love to use the free space on my SSD for caching, but it's not well-supported by Linux, and I'm not switching to FreeBSD just to get SSD caching. Having a large file system cache, faciliated by a large amount of RAM, is likely to improve I/O performance on my HDD.

All jokes aside, you're just pissing your cash up the wall. 8Gb is twice as much as I think you need and a quarter of the cost even for the fast stuff.

When I built my current PC I nearly put 8Gb in. Lord Dave talked me out of it. He was right. I've never even got close to the 4Gb I have instead and even though I paid an extra $10 for CL8 Ram I run it on CL9 timings anyway. Its fast enough. With the SSD everything my PC does is instant anyway.

Meditate on this, I will.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 08:49:09 AM by Parsifal »
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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2012, 09:03:08 AM »
Indeed. But if all goes to plan, what I'm going to be running in a VM isn't a dev environment, but games on Windows 7. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.
That graphics card choice will be left wanting long before you need more than 8gb of RAM for a game. I can't think of any game needs 32gb.

You should also note:
While the maximum RAM limit for 32-bit Windows 7 editions is 4GB, when it comes to the 64-bit editions, the amount of memory that the OS can address depends on which edition you are running.
Here are the upper RAM limits for the different editions of Windows 7:
 •Starter: 8GB
 •Home Basic: 8GB
 •Home Premium: 16GB
 •Professional: 192GB
 •Enterprise: 192GB
 •Ultimate: 192GB

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2012, 09:05:31 AM »
That graphics card choice will be left wanting long before you need more than 8gb of RAM for a game. I can't think of any game needs 32gb.

Yes, but Windows won't be the only OS running at the time. It only contributes to the total RAM usage.

You should also note:
While the maximum RAM limit for 32-bit Windows 7 editions is 4GB, when it comes to the 64-bit editions, the amount of memory that the OS can address depends on which edition you are running.
Here are the upper RAM limits for the different editions of Windows 7:
 •Starter: 8GB
 •Home Basic: 8GB
 •Home Premium: 16GB
 •Professional: 192GB
 •Enterprise: 192GB
 •Ultimate: 192GB

Yes.
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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2012, 09:27:55 AM »
I have just stopped caring. Put 32GB in.

However consider, when you are playing these ultra high octane games that need 32GB of RAM and require you to run about shooting things in the face, how are you going to be doing 4 other things at once? A game requires your sole attention when its running. Other wise you die/crash/fail whatever. Games like civ 5 that you can just flick to and from whilst you do other things don't require massive amounts of hardware. Oh forget it. Buy what you want. You will anyway. Stop asking for advice you won't listen to. Buy 21,000Gb of RAM if you want. And a million billion gb of hardrive space so you can save the internet just in case one day its turned off. And get 10 keyboards. One for each digit. And some form of cooled nitrogen system instead of a processor fan. Preferably one that will make your processor the coldest place in the universe. And your case needs to be machined from Kryptonite in case Superman makes an enemy of you. Kryptonite is very expensive because it only exists in comic books and films so its very rare but you should stretch for a nice case. Oh and you are going to need mice. Get a male and a female one. Then encourage them to make more mice with candle lit cage evenings and soft violin music in the background. With luck your first litter of mice will be within 10 weeks. Then you don't need to keep going back to Amazon for more. Get the laser type. Rollerball mice get dirty. And before I forget you'll need a power supply. I hear that CERN are about to upgrade so their current one might come available. Its nuclear but I'm sure the neighbours will understand when you tell them how your PC has 32GB of Ram in it. Uranium is also hard to come by, but you can get it from countries like North Korea or Iran if you need. Post piccies of your rig when you are done. I'll check back later.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 09:29:49 AM by Thork »

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2012, 09:56:37 AM »
I have just stopped caring. Put 32GB in.

Are you blind? I already said I was considering your advice:

Meditate on this, I will.

I'm just not sure how much I will need. I think I need to crunch some numbers next time I'm in a number-crunching mood.
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Blanko

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2012, 11:37:32 AM »
^This is retarted. You haven't listened to a damn word anyone has said.

What do you need 32Gb of Ram for at a cost of $300 AUS? Are you building a server? You picked CL9 as well so its not even low latency RAM. I have Windows 7 and MS Office running, IE9 and a bunch of other 'bloat' programs as you call them, and I'm using about 1.21Gb of RAM right now. What are you going to be doing to warrant 32Gb? 32Gb! On a Linux machine running crappy open source stripped down software? 32Gb? You could have my entire system's hard drive stored in RAM. You do not need more than 4Gb if you aren't playing the latest games or running heavy engineering programs like Catia or Autocad. 8 Gb is future proof. Look to spend $70 max. Not $300!
You asked for advice. I assume its so you don't do something dumb. That Ram choice is dumb.

Storage: Again 128GB? For a disk that only has an operating system and a few core programs on it? One that runs some skinny Linux rubbish? I have MS Office, MS Windows 7 (20Gb) and all my software on my PC. Its at about 30Gb. Spend half as much and get 60Gb. Byt the time you get close to filling it SSDs will be a fraction of the cost and 5 times as fast. You have an alternative drive for storage planned.

GPU: Meh.

Case: Ugly. With all that money you saved by not stuffing 32Gb of Ram that will never be used into your PC, you could get something really nice. An HTPC case or something. Its not 1997. The days of a big black hot tower between your legs are over (thankfully) because you no longer need 8 drive bays for storage. Check out Lian-Li or Silverstone for example. They make some pucker gear.

I don't think you will listen though.

>implying having an expensive vanity case is more important than having extra RAM

Cool priorities

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2012, 12:26:15 PM »
Even when that extra ram will never be needed?

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2012, 12:27:10 PM »
Word on the street is, Intel has brought forward the release date of Ivy Bridge to 23 April. If this is so, I'll more than likely be finalising and ordering my parts list tomorrow.
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Blanko

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2012, 01:28:39 PM »
Even when that extra ram will never be needed?

Yes. Getting a small case is completely pointless, whereas you could at least use that RAM to run twenty OSs at once.

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General Disarray

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2012, 03:31:56 PM »
How many VMs are you planning to run at once? I have 16GB of pretty much the same type, and I have trouble getting up to 4GB used at a time. I really think it would be pretty difficult to use that much RAM. Drop half of it and go with a 560TI 448 core. That little extra VRAM would probably benefit you more at those resolutions than RAM that you probably won't use.

And I'd recommend getting an 80+ gold or platinum power supply. They are loads more efficient, my 750W gold's fan doesn't even spin under the highest load I can give it.

Looking forward to tomorrow, I might even upgrade to Ivy if I can find someone to sell my 2600k to at a decent price.

Have you thought about case fans at all? Setting up good airflow is pretty important, and from what I've heard, Noctua fans are supposed to be pretty quiet with good airflow, despite being butt-ugly.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 03:34:14 PM by General Disarray »
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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2012, 03:56:49 PM »
How many VMs are you planning to run at once?

At least three, but probably more as time goes on and I find more interesting operating systems to play with.

I have 16GB of pretty much the same type, and I have trouble getting up to 4GB used at a time. I really think it would be pretty difficult to use that much RAM. Drop half of it and go with a 560TI 448 core. That little extra VRAM would probably benefit you more at those resolutions than RAM that you probably won't use.

I'm convinced that 32 GiB is a bad idea by now. However, your suggestion of a 560 Ti 448-core is intriguing.

Will there be a significant improvement over a 550 considering I'm not going to be doing many graphics-intensive things? I like to edit audio and play some games, but I prefer to target games with interesting storylines than those with top-of-the-line graphics (which is not to say you can't have both, I'm just indicating my preference).

That said, if I get VT-d working, I might end up using one monitor with Linux from onboard video and dedicate this GPU to a Windows VM, instead of buying a second GPU to give to Windows. So if there won't be much difference for the kind of things I'm going to do on Linux, it's a question of whether I want to spend the extra for hypothetical future benefits, which I'll need to decide for myself.

And I'd recommend getting an 80+ gold or platinum power supply. They are loads more efficient, my 750W gold's fan doesn't even spin under the highest load I can give it.

I am intending to do so. My initial tentative selection was gold certified, but I'm waiting for Ivy Bridge to come out before I select the final components, so I can calculate how much power I'll need before selecting a PSU.

Looking forward to tomorrow, I might even upgrade to Ivy if I can find someone to sell my 2600k to at a decent price.

Me too. I did end up waiting longer than initially expected for Ivy Bridge, but I think it'll be worth it when I get this beast up and running.

Have you thought about case fans at all? Setting up good airflow is pretty important, and from what I've heard, Noctua fans are supposed to be pretty quiet with good airflow, despite being butt-ugly.

I haven't really, mostly because I'm finding it hard to picture how things will be laid out inside the case, having never built a computer before. Currently I have a vague idea of what components I need to buy, and once I've bought them then I'll try to fit them in somehow. As such, I have no idea where exactly the cooling will fit in, or if I need to buy more than one fan or what. Any pointers would be much appreciated.

Also, butt-ugly and functional is preferable to attractive and vapid for me.
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General Disarray

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2012, 04:20:44 PM »
Now that I think about it a 560ti 448 might be overkill, you could also get a 550 ti with 2GB of VRAM for not that much more. With 2 rather high resolution monitors, the amount of VRAM might become an issue at some point, and 2GB should be plenty of headroom for your purposes.

One or maybe two extra case fans, probably placed at the front and top drawing air in with the one included with the case blowing out the back should be fine, especially if you don't plan to overclock.
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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2012, 11:45:20 PM »
Looking forward to tomorrow, I might even upgrade to Ivy if I can find someone to sell my 2600k to at a decent price.
I'm not looking forward to it. That's the day my computer suddenly becomes out of date. Although my i3 only came out in q3 of 2012. I've a feeling (probably just hope) that the high end i3's won't be out until later in the year.

Also you have one of the best processors money can buy. And you want to upgrade it because a new processor with maybe 10% more speed has come out? Can I ask, how often has your processor been at 100%?

Also the BBC are all over it if you want something to make you hard.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17785464
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 11:47:51 PM by Thork »

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General Disarray

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2012, 11:58:10 PM »
It is probably the most irrational purchase I have ever considered, but it would be fun. If I could sell my current processor+motherboard for at most a $100 loss, I would probably upgrade to Ivy.
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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #139 on: April 23, 2012, 12:20:06 AM »
I know I'm going to have to give ivy bridge a miss. It would be insane to get another processor already. I'll look forward to Haswell. :P

Also I don't think you will only lose $100. Intel are about to slash sandy bridge prices themselves according to the news as will motherboard manufactures. You may be able to pick up brand new sandy gear for $100 less in a couple of weeks let alone a chip that you have cooked @5Ghz or wherever you decided to stop. You should advertise it as having "One careful lady owner who only used it to surf the net on weekends."
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 12:26:40 AM by Thork »

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #140 on: April 23, 2012, 02:11:15 AM »
Now that I think about it a 560ti 448 might be overkill, you could also get a 550 ti with 2GB of VRAM for not that much more. With 2 rather high resolution monitors, the amount of VRAM might become an issue at some point, and 2GB should be plenty of headroom for your purposes.

PC Case Gear doesn't appear to stock 550 Ti units with 2 GB of VRAM. I think I'll go with the 560 Ti.

One or maybe two extra case fans, probably placed at the front and top drawing air in with the one included with the case blowing out the back should be fine, especially if you don't plan to overclock.

Cool, thanks. The 23rd is nearly over (over here, anyway) and Ivy Bridge doesn't appear to be out yet. :(
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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #141 on: April 23, 2012, 02:48:01 AM »
Cool, thanks. The 23rd is nearly over (over here, anyway) and Ivy Bridge doesn't appear to be out yet. :(
When you say doesn't appear to be out, what are you expecting? Just because you supplier isn't stocking them doesn't mean they aren't out. shop around. Look, the Dutch are getting their little orange hands on them.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgeizhals.at%2Feu%2F761779
If ya want one, go buy it. Warning though, these prices are obscene. They will drop massively in the next week or so. Patience dear Parsifal, patience.

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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #142 on: April 23, 2012, 03:01:17 AM »
Hooray, we have them in the UK.

http://skinflint.co.uk/de/?in=&fs=3770K
Reasonable price too. :D

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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2012, 03:04:14 AM »
http://www.newegg.com.cn/Product/A01-137-0R2.htm?FPA=4

The Chinese have them. Oooh, Not long surely until Australia.

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Thork

Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2012, 03:08:50 AM »

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #145 on: April 23, 2012, 03:14:27 AM »
When you say doesn't appear to be out, what are you expecting? Just because you supplier isn't stocking them doesn't mean they aren't out. shop around.

Intel's own website doesn't list them.

Look, the Dutch are getting their little orange hands on them.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgeizhals.at%2Feu%2F761779
If ya want one, go buy it. Warning though, these prices are obscene. They will drop massively in the next week or so. Patience dear Parsifal, patience.

Why would I want to buy from dodgy European retailers? I'll wait until it's available over here, thanks.
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Blanko

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #146 on: April 23, 2012, 03:50:31 AM »
Why would I want to buy from dodgy European retailers? I'll wait until it's available over here, thanks.

The implication being that Australian retailers are somehow less dodgy than European ones?

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Parsifal

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #147 on: April 23, 2012, 04:10:23 AM »
The implication being that Australian retailers are somehow less dodgy than European ones?

I was anticipating a bite, but not from you.
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Blanko

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #148 on: April 23, 2012, 04:19:10 AM »
The implication being that Australian retailers are somehow less dodgy than European ones?

I was anticipating a bite, but not from you.

I'm sorry.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Looking to buy a new computer
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2012, 09:03:26 AM »
What are you going to be using the graphics card for?

In short, nothing onboard graphics couldn't handle, except for the fact that the onboard graphics doesn't have dual DVI outputs. Mostly web browsing, talking to people on IRC/XMPP, watching videos and the occasional non-video-intensive game, such as Wesnoth.

I'm thinking of going for this: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1201&products_id=19278

I'll probably go with PC Case Gear for all the parts, in fact. It seems to have a wider selection and a better put-together website than ARC.

I would not go with a 550TI, they are a bit overpriced for their performance.  Under 200 bucks you will find that AMD is still king, you really need to get to the GTX 560 before it makes sense to go with nvidia (in terms of price/performance), unless there is some sort of software from nvidia that you want.  If you don't need to go with nvidia, then the 6850 radeon is a very powerful card for a great price.  There is also the 7770 radeon which is a bit slower and more expensive but will use way less power.  But for your uses the 550Ti would work, its just that you could technically get more for your money.

As for your 32 GB ram selection, i just don't know of any human ever needing that in a personal computer.  To be honest in most cases 16 GB's is excessive, and 8 GB is more than enough, with 4 gb being great for every day use.  That being said i do not know how much you will need, only that you would be in a very extreme minority if you actually would use that much ram.