People on skateboards.

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TheEngineer

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2015, 10:20:08 AM »
He isn't talking about those. Pay attention. He was asking if I think nozzles don't do anything related to movement, like the tail pipe of a car.

Hmm, 'cause that is not what you just said:
sokarul, Do you think a rocket would work just fine if the exhaust nozzles were pointed out the side of the rocket and not pointed down?
No. Why would I think that? I actually know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and this:
A rocket will not "work just fine" with the nozzle pointing 90 degrees the wrong way unless you think "work just fine" means spinning in a circle until it crashes.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2015, 10:33:25 AM »
He isn't talking about those. Pay attention. He was asking if I think nozzles don't do anything related to movement, like the tail pipe of a car.

Hmm, 'cause that is not what you just said:
sokarul, Do you think a rocket would work just fine if the exhaust nozzles were pointed out the side of the rocket and not pointed down?
No. Why would I think that? I actually know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and this:
A rocket will not "work just fine" with the nozzle pointing 90 degrees the wrong way unless you think "work just fine" means spinning in a circle until it crashes.

Are you stupid?
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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2015, 10:37:53 AM »
Note to neutrals: free expansion is also known as Joules expansion or the Joules-Thomson effect. It states quite categorically that a gas can do no work in a vacuum.
Then it's a good thing that no one is claiming that it does.  We are claiming that the work is being done in the combustion chamber of the rocket engine, not in the vacuum of space.

You guys are confusing me. If the work, meaning what causes it to fly in a vacuum, is being done in the combustion chamber of the rocket engine and the expelling gasses out the nozzle is not doing any of the work, then it shouldn't matter where the exhaust nozzles are pointed. Simple little control surfaces should do the trick of steering it just fine. What I'm suggesting should also work just fine in the atmosphere as well. If not, Please explain.
The equal and opposite reaction is created when the exhaust leaves the nozzle. This has already been explained many times in the other thread. I also said to watch October Sky to see an explanation of nozzles.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2015, 10:48:34 AM »
The whole process is made far more understandable when you look at what is actually happening and causing the net force that drives the rocket forwards.

Fuel and oxidiser are pumped into the combustion chamber and ignited creating exhaust particles that are accelerated to high velocity and creates a very large pressure. The action of the exhaust particles impacting the chamber are what gives momentum to the rocket. This momentum is upwards because there is a hole at the bottom (the nozzle). This means that the forces are not equal. There is a greater force upwards than downwards because the exhaust particles can pass out the bottom without imparting force.

Net force upwards accelerates the rocket. This is why a vacuum is not a problem. It is the simple action of exhaust particles impacting the combustion chamber exerting net force upwards.
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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2015, 11:18:51 AM »
The whole process is made far more understandable when you look at what is actually happening and causing the net force that drives the rocket forwards.

Fuel and oxidiser are pumped into the combustion chamber and ignited creating exhaust particles that are accelerated to high velocity and creates a very large pressure. The action of the exhaust particles impacting the chamber are what gives momentum to the rocket. This momentum is upwards because there is a hole at the bottom (the nozzle). This means that the forces are not equal. There is a greater force upwards than downwards because the exhaust particles can pass out the bottom without imparting force.

Net force upwards accelerates the rocket. This is why a vacuum is not a problem. It is the simple action of exhaust particles impacting the combustion chamber exerting net force upwards.
That's not how it works.
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2015, 11:40:00 AM »
Momentum, conservation of.

The end. 

Turn off the lights and lock the thread.

Gas in a Vacuum, Free Expansion of.

The REAL end...

Of NASA's Lies.

Turn On your minds and Unlock the Truth.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2015, 11:49:02 AM »
LULZ!!!

You're actually trying to re-write the laws of physics now..?

You've only made four posts & every single one of them is gibberish; good work, schteeben; 100% Fail!

Just because I haven't posted much doesn't mean I'm wrong...

And to your credit, yes. I misunderstood your idea of a closed system.

The universe is a closed system, it's just one that's expanding that's all.

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Yendor

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2015, 11:51:46 AM »
Note to neutrals: free expansion is also known as Joules expansion or the Joules-Thomson effect. It states quite categorically that a gas can do no work in a vacuum.
Then it's a good thing that no one is claiming that it does.  We are claiming that the work is being done in the combustion chamber of the rocket engine, not in the vacuum of space.

You guys are confusing me. If the work, meaning what causes it to fly in a vacuum, is being done in the combustion chamber of the rocket engine and the expelling gasses out the nozzle is not doing any of the work, then it shouldn't matter where the exhaust nozzles are pointed. Simple little control surfaces should do the trick of steering it just fine. What I'm suggesting should also work just fine in the atmosphere as well. If not, Please explain.
The equal and opposite reaction is created when the exhaust leaves the nozzle. This has already been explained many times in the other thread. I also said to watch October Sky to see an explanation of nozzles.

I'm sorry I'm a little slow here, please be patient. I understand Newton's third law of motion, but that doesn't mean that the reaction in the opposite direction is doing any work. It is just wasted energy in the opposite direction in the form of exhaust. It can be diverted anywhere out the side of the rocket. If that is not the case then the exhaust is doing work by pushing against the ground and atmosphere and that means it must stay at the rear of the rocket facing the opposite direction.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2015, 11:55:18 AM »
LULZ!!!

You're actually trying to re-write the laws of physics now..?

You've only made four posts & every single one of them is gibberish; good work, schteeben; 100% Fail!

You are like an angry preacher and it's hilarious.
Thank you for the entertainment lol.

Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2015, 12:01:29 PM »
Would someone please show me the equations that show a rocket needs something to "push against", because here is why you don't need an atmosphere for it to work.

 Let us begin with Newton's second law of motion:

d (M u) / dt = F net

where M is the mass of the rocket, u is the velocity of the rocket, F net is the net external force on the rocket and the symbol d / dt denotes that this is a differential equation in time t. The only external force which we will consider is the thrust from the propulsion system.
The thrust equation is given by:

F = mdot * Veq

where mdot is the mass flow rate, and Veq is the equivalent exit velocity of the nozzle which is defined to be:

Veq = V exit + (p exit - p0) * Aexit / mdot

where V exit is the exit velocity, p exit is the exit pressure, p0 is the free stream pressure, and A exit is the exit area of the nozzle. Veq is also related to the specific impulse Isp:

Veq = Isp * g0

where g0 is the gravitational constant. m dot is mass flow rate and is equal to the change in the mass of the propellants mp on board the rocket:

mdot = d mp / dt

Substituting the expression for the thrust into the motion equation gives:

d (M u) / dt = V eq * d mp / dt

d (M u) = Veq d mp

Expanding the left side of the equation:

M du + u dM = Veq d mp

Assume we are moving with the rocket, then the value of u is zero:

M du = Veq d mp

Now, if we consider the instantaneous mass of the rocket M, the mass is composed of two main parts, the empty mass me and the propellant mass mp. The empty mass does not change with time, but the mass of propellants on board the rocket does change with time:

M(t) = me + mp (t)

Initially, the full mass of the rocket mf contains the empty mass and all of the propellant at lift off. At the end of the burn, the mass of the rocket contains only the empty mass:

M initial = mf = me + mp

M final = me

The change on the mass of the rocket is equal to the change in mass of the propellant, which is negative, since propellant mass is constantly being ejected out of the nozzle:

dM = - d mp

If we substitute this relation into the motion equation:

M du = - Veq dM

du = - Veq dM / M

We can now integrate this equation:

delta u = - Veq ln (M)

where delta represents the change in velocity, and ln is the symbol for the natural logarithmic function. The limits of integration are from the initial mass of the rocket to the final mass of the rocket. Substituting for these values we obtain:

delta u = Veq ln (mf / me)

This equation is called the ideal rocket equation. There are several additional forms of this equation which we list here: Using the definition of the propellant mass ratio MR

MR = mf / me

delta u = Veq * ln (MR)

or in terms of the specific impulse of the engine:

delta u = Isp * g0 * ln (MR)

If we have a desired delta u for a maneuver, we can invert this equation to determine the amount of propellant required:

MR = exp (delta u / (Isp * g0) )

where exp is the exponential function.
If you include the effects of gravity, the rocket equation becomes:

delta u = Veq ln (MR) - g0 * tb

where tb is the time for the burn.

And this is how rockets work.

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Yendor

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2015, 12:17:08 PM »
Would someone please show me the equations that show a rocket needs something to "push against", because here is why you don't need an atmosphere for it to work.

 Let us begin with Newton's second law of motion:

d (M u) / dt = F net

where M is the mass of the rocket, u is the velocity of the rocket, F net is the net external force on the rocket and the symbol d / dt denotes that this is a differential equation in time t. The only external force which we will consider is the thrust from the propulsion system.
The thrust equation is given by:

F = mdot * Veq

where mdot is the mass flow rate, and Veq is the equivalent exit velocity of the nozzle which is defined to be:

Veq = V exit + (p exit - p0) * Aexit / mdot

where V exit is the exit velocity, p exit is the exit pressure, p0 is the free stream pressure, and A exit is the exit area of the nozzle. Veq is also related to the specific impulse Isp:

Veq = Isp * g0

where g0 is the gravitational constant. m dot is mass flow rate and is equal to the change in the mass of the propellants mp on board the rocket:

mdot = d mp / dt

Substituting the expression for the thrust into the motion equation gives:

d (M u) / dt = V eq * d mp / dt

d (M u) = Veq d mp

Expanding the left side of the equation:

M du + u dM = Veq d mp

Assume we are moving with the rocket, then the value of u is zero:

M du = Veq d mp

Now, if we consider the instantaneous mass of the rocket M, the mass is composed of two main parts, the empty mass me and the propellant mass mp. The empty mass does not change with time, but the mass of propellants on board the rocket does change with time:

M(t) = me + mp (t)

Initially, the full mass of the rocket mf contains the empty mass and all of the propellant at lift off. At the end of the burn, the mass of the rocket contains only the empty mass:

M initial = mf = me + mp

M final = me

The change on the mass of the rocket is equal to the change in mass of the propellant, which is negative, since propellant mass is constantly being ejected out of the nozzle:

dM = - d mp

If we substitute this relation into the motion equation:

M du = - Veq dM

du = - Veq dM / M

We can now integrate this equation:

delta u = - Veq ln (M)

where delta represents the change in velocity, and ln is the symbol for the natural logarithmic function. The limits of integration are from the initial mass of the rocket to the final mass of the rocket. Substituting for these values we obtain:

delta u = Veq ln (mf / me)

This equation is called the ideal rocket equation. There are several additional forms of this equation which we list here: Using the definition of the propellant mass ratio MR

MR = mf / me

delta u = Veq * ln (MR)

or in terms of the specific impulse of the engine:

delta u = Isp * g0 * ln (MR)

If we have a desired delta u for a maneuver, we can invert this equation to determine the amount of propellant required:

MR = exp (delta u / (Isp * g0) )

where exp is the exponential function.
If you include the effects of gravity, the rocket equation becomes:

delta u = Veq ln (MR) - g0 * tb

where tb is the time for the burn.

And this is how rockets work.


don't throw a bunch of equations in the mix that mean nothing. If you don't know how rockets work, then stay out of the discussion.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2015, 12:23:16 PM »
LULZ!!!

Lookee this Robinsoneb...

You've called in an Exorcist now... Legba is honoured!

But where is the fact that your gas powered rocket is operating in a VACUUM factored into all this Exorcist's mathe-magic & algebra-cadabral incantations, robinsoneb?

Nowhere.

Which leads us inexorably back to good old Free Expansion of gas in a VACUUM...

Thus, once opened to the zero-pressure vacuum of space, the internal pressure of your silly space-rockets will simply Equalise with that zero external pressure, as efficiently as possible, doing so Freely & with NO WORK BEING PRODUCED.

Because you cannot push on Nothing.

You can't argue with Newton, Joules & Thomson; that's a very dark & dangerous path to choose...
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2015, 12:36:41 PM »
Expansion of gas, Free, in a Vacuum.

The end.

Turn off your brains & go back to sleep.
Free expansion applies to a closed system.

The end.

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TheEngineer

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2015, 12:38:03 PM »
He isn't talking about those. Pay attention. He was asking if I think nozzles don't do anything related to movement, like the tail pipe of a car.

Hmm, 'cause that is not what you just said:
sokarul, Do you think a rocket would work just fine if the exhaust nozzles were pointed out the side of the rocket and not pointed down?
No. Why would I think that? I actually know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and this:
A rocket will not "work just fine" with the nozzle pointing 90 degrees the wrong way unless you think "work just fine" means spinning in a circle until it crashes.

Are you stupid?
Wow, that was a great rebuttal!  Very informative and directly addresses the point.  Nice dodge.  I see you haven't changed a bit.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2015, 12:41:21 PM »
He isn't talking about those. Pay attention. He was asking if I think nozzles don't do anything related to movement, like the tail pipe of a car.

Hmm, 'cause that is not what you just said:
sokarul, Do you think a rocket would work just fine if the exhaust nozzles were pointed out the side of the rocket and not pointed down?
No. Why would I think that? I actually know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and this:
A rocket will not "work just fine" with the nozzle pointing 90 degrees the wrong way unless you think "work just fine" means spinning in a circle until it crashes.

Are you stupid?
Wow, that was a great rebuttal!  Very informative and directly addresses the point.  Nice dodge.  I see you haven't changed a bit.
I have no idea what you were trying to get at. Maybe post something more than 3 quotes and an incomplete sentence. Then I will make a rebuttal.
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2015, 12:49:03 PM »
Expansion of gas, Free, in a Vacuum.

The end.

Turn off your brains & go back to sleep.
Free expansion applies to a closed system.

No; that's conservation of momentum you're thinking of...

Damn - how many sock-puppets are you 'round-earthers' (lol!) gonna throw at this Lost Cause?

Cos you can argue with me as long as you like; but arguing with Newton, Joules & Thomson is a VERY dark & dangerous path...

Open a tiny can of pressurised gas in a practically infinite hard vacuum; what do the above three scientist's laws say will be the result?

No Work at all being produced, that's what...

Because you cannot push off Nothing.

*Yawn!*

I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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Yendor

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2015, 12:55:24 PM »
Guys, Guys, enough of this bickering. Let me show you how rockets work.



So you see, rockets do need the ground and even the atmosphere to push against or they won't go anywhere, especially in space.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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TheEngineer

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2015, 12:55:30 PM »
Then I will make a rebuttal.
But you did make a rebuttal.  And it was just as expected.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2015, 01:15:32 PM »
LULZ!!!

Lookee this Robinsoneb...

You've called in an Exorcist now... Legba is honoured!

But where is the fact that your gas powered rocket is operating in a VACUUM factored into all this Exorcist's mathe-magic & algebra-cadabral incantations, robinsoneb?

Nowhere.

Which leads us inexorably back to good old Free Expansion of gas in a VACUUM...

Thus, once opened to the zero-pressure vacuum of space, the internal pressure of your silly space-rockets will simply Equalise with that zero external pressure, as efficiently as possible, doing so Freely & with NO WORK BEING PRODUCED.

Because you cannot push on Nothing.

You can't argue with Newton, Joules & Thomson; that's a very dark & dangerous path to choose...
Free expansion applies to a closed system, always has.  But even if you still won't accept that, consider this.
Before opened to a vacuum you have gas molecules moving in all directions
gas is not a magical ethereal substance that instantly vanishes in a vacuum, but a collection of individual molecules or atoms, each of  which behaves just like a tiny solid object. It keeps going in the same direction at the same velocity until it hits either another gas molecule or the walls of the rocket engine. Since they're all going in random directions to start, the only way to get most of them to leave the rocket through the nozzle is to let them bounce repeatedly off the inside walls and each other until they finally go in the right direction and leave. It's those bounces -- otherwise known as gas pressure -- that impart(s) thrust. Most of them cancel each other, but that very last bounce is the one that does nearly all the work that molecule will do for us.

for them to not induce a thrust, something would have to change their velocity.  A vacuum can't do that. 

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2015, 01:18:28 PM »
Guys, Guys, enough of this bickering. Let me show you how rockets work.



So you see, rockets do need the ground and even the atmosphere to push against or they won't go anywhere, especially in space.
If that were true then the greatest thrust would occur while on the ground and decrease as they rise and the air gets thinner.  They have been measured to have increased thrust as the air gets thinner.

Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2015, 01:20:41 PM »
Guys, Guys, enough of this bickering. Let me show you how rockets work.



So you see, rockets do need the ground and even the atmosphere to push against or they won't go anywhere, especially in space.

Your explaination is garbage. The exhaust exits the rocket and hits the ground. The exhaust pushes against the ground an the ground pushed against the exhaust. The exhaust had already left the rocket at this point so how does that then push the rocket......?

The reality. Reactants ignite in the combustion chamber and impact the reaction chamber walls. the exhaust pushes against the walls pushing the rocket and the walls push against the exhaust forcing it out the nozzle. The is a hole at the bottom meaning no force is imparted down. Therefore net force is up.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2015, 01:32:45 PM »
Aaaand now we're back to the utterly insane notion that both the forces described by Newton's 3rd can be created on the same object & still result in motion being produced...

LULZ!!!

By that logic I can lift myself up to space by pulling on my own bootstraps... Loony-Toons style!

Oh, & Free/Joules Expansion is NOT exclusively limited to a closed system; that's a big fat LIE right there, so knock it off, okay?

Frenzied Trolls are Frenzied!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2015, 01:42:33 PM »
Aaaand now we're back to the utterly insane notion that both the forces described by Newton's 3rd can be created on the same object & still result in motion being produced...

LULZ!!!

By that logic I can lift myself up to space by pulling on my own bootstraps... Loony-Toons style!

Oh, & Free/Joules Expansion is NOT exclusively limited to a closed system; that's a big fat LIE right there, so knock it off, okay?

Frenzied Trolls are Frenzied!

Have you never fired a gun?  Do you think recoil is caused by the bullet pushing against the atmosphere?

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sokarul

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2015, 01:52:06 PM »
Then I will make a rebuttal.
But you did make a rebuttal.  And it was just as expected.
Why did you omit the part of my post where I asked you to restate your statement?
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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2015, 02:10:59 PM »
Have you never fired a gun?  Do you think recoil is caused by the bullet pushing against the atmosphere?

Is a rocket in space like a gun now?

I thought it was like a woman on a skateboard?

It looks like a very small can of pressurised gas in a very large zero-pressure environment to me, & thus should be obedient to gas-pressure laws...

You know; like Free Expansion & stuff?

W=pv maybe?

But hey, I'm not totally obsessed with space-travel to the point of ignoring all the laws of physics in order to make it somehow possible, so maybe you're right?

LOL!!!

No, you're NOT!
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2015, 02:19:11 PM »
Have you never fired a gun?  Do you think recoil is caused by the bullet pushing against the atmosphere?

Is a rocket in space like a gun now?

I thought it was like a woman on a skateboard?

It looks like a very small can of pressurised gas in a very large zero-pressure environment to me, & thus should be obedient to gas-pressure laws...

You know; like Free Expansion & stuff?

W=pv maybe?

But hey, I'm not totally obsessed with space-travel to the point of ignoring all the laws of physics in order to make it somehow possible, so maybe you're right?

LOL!!!

No, you're NOT!

Is that a yes or no?

*

Yendor

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2015, 02:33:12 PM »
Guys, Guys, enough of this bickering. Let me show you how rockets work.



So you see, rockets do need the ground and even the atmosphere to push against or they won't go anywhere, especially in space.

Your explaination is garbage. The exhaust exits the rocket and hits the ground. The exhaust pushes against the ground an the ground pushed against the exhaust. The exhaust had already left the rocket at this point so how does that then push the rocket......?

The reality. Reactants ignite in the combustion chamber and impact the reaction chamber walls. the exhaust pushes against the walls pushing the rocket and the walls push against the exhaust forcing it out the nozzle. The is a hole at the bottom meaning no force is imparted down. Therefore net force is up.

This is how they teach it in school. I got it from a school teaching aid.

So, you say, "The is a hole at the bottom meaning no force is imparted down. Therefore net force is up."
Then I say, "The exhaust can be pointed out of the side of the rocket and it makes no difference, because the hole at the bottom means no force is imparted there and it will play just fine."
According to you.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                              George Orwell

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Papa Legba

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2015, 02:39:19 PM »
Is that a yes or no?

That was a LOL!!!

At your stupid questions.

Cos you asked two btw, both of which were irrelevant.

In summation: Learn to read.

Then buy a book on gas laws.

Then realise space travel is fake.

Then get a life.

Oh, & Yendor; you make a good point; but I've been here already with these bozos, so don't expect a logical answer... Ever.
I got Trolled & Shilled at the CIA Troll/Shill Society and now I feel EPIC!!!

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2015, 02:59:10 PM »
Aaaand now we're back to the utterly insane notion that both the forces described by Newton's 3rd can be created on the same object & still result in motion being produced...
Since mass is being expelled, yes.

LULZ!!!

By that logic I can lift myself up to space by pulling on my own bootstraps... Loony-Toons style!
And thank you for proving you don't understand.  You wouldn't be expelling any mass then, would you?

Oh, & Free/Joules Expansion is NOT exclusively limited to a closed system; that's a big fat LIE right there, so knock it off, okay?
Not a lie.  It is ALWAYS described in a closed system. 

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frenat

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Re: People on skateboards.
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2015, 03:05:41 PM »