Simple Balloon "Rocket"...

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #390 on: November 20, 2014, 09:01:48 AM »
It's your usual response when you're trapped in a corner - take the ball home and refuse to play.

Deleting all your posts comes next....
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Rama Set

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #391 on: November 20, 2014, 09:09:40 AM »
I still don't understand why, if I walk to a cliff edge and jump off, I fall?  Why don't I just float off?
Why should you float off if your mass is under pressure?
Because the air pressure is equal on all sides, just like it is when I'm on top of the cliff.
It's not equal on all sides. There's more pressure at your feet than there is on your head.
Surely I would float upwards then?
I said at your feet, not under your feet.
I don't know what you mean by that.
Atmospheric pressure is strongest at sea level than say, 6 feet higher, marginally.

It is not pushing up under your feet but pushing down. Do you get it now?
So what is this marginal difference?

Presumably if I did fall off a cliff I should just go horizontal and then the difference in air pressure between the top and bottom of my body would be too small to make me fall and I'll just float around on the wind?  I will try this next time.
Well, I've certainly wasted my time with you. I won't do it again.

It is going to be hard to destroy the RE view if you never talk with anyone who holds the RE view isn't it?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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sokarul

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #392 on: November 20, 2014, 09:11:46 AM »
It's your usual response when you're trapped in a corner - take the ball home and refuse to play.

Deleting all your posts comes next....
You guys destroyed denpressure again. Thanks.  Second time in this thread.

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rottingroom

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #393 on: November 20, 2014, 09:13:57 AM »
I still don't understand why, if I walk to a cliff edge and jump off, I fall?  Why don't I just float off?
Why should you float off if your mass is under pressure?
Because the air pressure is equal on all sides, just like it is when I'm on top of the cliff.
It's not equal on all sides. There's more pressure at your feet than there is on your head.
Surely I would float upwards then?
I said at your feet, not under your feet.
I don't know what you mean by that.
Atmospheric pressure is strongest at sea level than say, 6 feet higher, marginally.

It is not pushing up under your feet but pushing down. Do you get it now?
So what is this marginal difference?

Presumably if I did fall off a cliff I should just go horizontal and then the difference in air pressure between the top and bottom of my body would be too small to make me fall and I'll just float around on the wind?  I will try this next time.
Well, I've certainly wasted my time with you. I won't do it again.

It is going to be hard to destroy the RE view if you never talk with anyone who holds the RE view isn't it?

That's why I continue to respond to his posts even though he can't see them. The only people convinced by his bullshit are the scientific illiterate so if he doesn't even respond then he's only hurting his own "mission". I get to make my arguments and they simply go unanswered. Not the he ever responded to them before in any meaningful way.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #394 on: November 20, 2014, 09:14:09 AM »
It's your usual response when you're trapped in a corner - take the ball home and refuse to play.

Deleting all your posts comes next....
You guys destroyed denpressure again. Thanks.  Second time in this thread.
None of you can destroy it. You can't destroy the truth. Stick to your fantasies by hanging onto a force that nobody knows what the hell it is.

Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #395 on: November 20, 2014, 09:14:49 AM »
I still don't understand why, if I walk to a cliff edge and jump off, I fall?  Why don't I just float off?
Why should you float off if your mass is under pressure?
Because the air pressure is equal on all sides, just like it is when I'm on top of the cliff.
It's not equal on all sides. There's more pressure at your feet than there is on your head.
Surely I would float upwards then?
I said at your feet, not under your feet.
I don't know what you mean by that.
Atmospheric pressure is strongest at sea level than say, 6 feet higher, marginally.

It is not pushing up under your feet but pushing down. Do you get it now?
Please provide some measurements to prove this.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #396 on: November 20, 2014, 09:16:43 AM »
I still don't understand why, if I walk to a cliff edge and jump off, I fall?  Why don't I just float off?
Why should you float off if your mass is under pressure?
Because the air pressure is equal on all sides, just like it is when I'm on top of the cliff.
It's not equal on all sides. There's more pressure at your feet than there is on your head.
Surely I would float upwards then?
I said at your feet, not under your feet.
I don't know what you mean by that.
Atmospheric pressure is strongest at sea level than say, 6 feet higher, marginally.

It is not pushing up under your feet but pushing down. Do you get it now?
Please provide some measurements to prove this.
I'll tell you what I will provide for you. The bin. I can't stomach you anymore. Hahahahaha.
Seriously, don't ever reply it won't be seen.  ;D

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rottingroom

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #397 on: November 20, 2014, 09:17:16 AM »
I still don't understand why, if I walk to a cliff edge and jump off, I fall?  Why don't I just float off?
Why should you float off if your mass is under pressure?
Because the air pressure is equal on all sides, just like it is when I'm on top of the cliff.
It's not equal on all sides. There's more pressure at your feet than there is on your head.
Surely I would float upwards then?
I said at your feet, not under your feet.
I don't know what you mean by that.
Atmospheric pressure is strongest at sea level than say, 6 feet higher, marginally.

It is not pushing up under your feet but pushing down. Do you get it now?
Please provide some measurements to prove this.

Please shut up. On that point he is right. Barometers show this daily. The problem is that he doesn't understand what the effects of this are.

Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #398 on: November 20, 2014, 09:22:13 AM »
So, if I lift a ball up off the ground, the air 'stacks' above it, and somehow (despite any wind) remains stacked regardless of how long the ball is held in it's lifted position.  Air was wrapping around it and creating higher pressure below it, (which made it feel really light and easy to lift apparently?)  But when I stopped lifting it, the higher pressure that will push it either up or down is now above or below it.  I'm not sure.

Now then, if I throw the ball straight out in front of me horizontally, air pressure 'stacks' in front of it (correct?) and it's wrapping around and creating higher pressure behind it which continues pushing it through the air until too much pressure is in front and not enough can wrap around to the back (Dang!  thought we'd just figured out perpetual motion there) and the ball goes which way?

Does the ball stop moving and come back to me?  It shouldn't fall to the ground, because the vertical column of stacked air waiting patiently to push it back down is at my location.  I'm pretty sure the ball will arc down toward the ground instead. 

If the ball does come back to me because of the horizontally stacked air in front of it, what kept the vertically stacked air from coming back down in the balls absence?  If it has dissipated due to the ball no longer being directly below it, the ball should stop when it reaches me and hover correct?   

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hoppy

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #399 on: November 20, 2014, 09:31:00 AM »
Scepti, do you know if the difference of air pressure from 0' to 6' is measureable?
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rottingroom

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #400 on: November 20, 2014, 09:34:09 AM »
Scepti, do you know if the difference of air pressure from 0' to 6' is measureable?

It is and it doesn't help his argument. Whether pressure is higher or lower at a given elevation isn't on dispute. For scepti and you, the effects of it are.

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markjo

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #401 on: November 20, 2014, 09:51:03 AM »
"My  arguments"? You should notice that I did not make one, I was just asking questions. Can you shed light on displacement (question in my previous post).
Measured weight relies solely on air pressure acting upon any dense object.

It's why a lead ball weighs more than a wooden ball of the same size.
How much would the weight change if you were to put those balls in a vacuum chamber and remove 99.99% of the air pressure?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #402 on: November 20, 2014, 10:00:56 AM »
So, if I lift a ball up off the ground, the air 'stacks' above it, and somehow (despite any wind) remains stacked regardless of how long the ball is held in it's lifted position.
No, not at all. If you lift the ball, then simply hold it, you now only compress the air in which the whole ball is in. As in the balls mass displaces that air. It's under no energy itself by now, except your energy in holding it, which you can class as "potential" energy.
Your lift of the ball used your energy is pushing that ball into the atmosphere and it was only then in that movement where you are compressing that air in motion and leaving a lower pressure under your lift.
Hopefully you get this.

Air was wrapping around it and creating higher pressure below it, (which made it feel really light and easy to lift apparently?)

No. As you lift it, your energy compresses the air above, which naturally gets pushed back around the ball to equalise the pressure. It's action/reaction. The friction is created around the sides of the ball at speed and hits the atmosphere under it to sort of rebound in a wave, if you like back under the ball, like a crashing effect. This will happen as long as you move the ball.
 
But when I stopped lifting it, the higher pressure that will push it either up or down is now above or below it.  I'm not sure.
Once you stopped lifting, the ball is as if it's on the ground, only you are now acting as the ground, because your hands are acting as an anchor. That ball becomes potential energy for as long as you're holding it up against the pressure at the new height. The second you can't hold it, it becomes energy again.
Now then, if I throw the ball straight out in front of me horizontally, air pressure 'stacks' in front of it (correct?)
Yes but it's a whole new ball game, if you pardon the pun. As before. Air pressures doesn't stack up, it is merely compressed and that compression is channelled around the ball, creating friction around it to crash into the lower pressure air behind it which springs back against the ball. Naturally it's not as strong a push as it is when the ball is acting against the higher pressure because it loses energy.

But also, you have the air pressure also pushing it down, which is why you see an arc, and that arc size is dependent on the energy you put into it and at what angle.
and it's wrapping around and creating higher pressure behind it which continues pushing it through the air until too much pressure is in front and not enough can wrap around to the back (Dang!  thought we'd just figured out perpetual motion there) and the ball goes which way?
It's nt perpetual motion, it's a simple case of proving that what people regard as air resistance hindering movement, it's imperative that it happens, because you have to have the action against resistance to create a reaction.
To have none of this, is to have nothing at all, meaning nothing can exist.
Does the ball stop moving and come back to me?  It shouldn't fall to the ground, because the vertical column of stacked air waiting patiently to push it back down is at my location.  I'm pretty sure the ball will arc down toward the ground instead. 
Which is exactly what it does. Arcs. I don't know how you get the thought of it coming back to you, unless you threw it against a ridiculous wind, against you.
If the ball does come back to me because of the horizontally stacked air in front of it, what kept the vertically stacked air from coming back down in the balls absence?
Assuming little or no wind, the ball is not coming back to you if you throw it horizontally, it will always go away from you.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #403 on: November 20, 2014, 10:02:11 AM »
Scepti, do you know if the difference of air pressure from 0' to 6' is measureable?
A barometer would measure it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #404 on: November 20, 2014, 10:10:31 AM »
"My  arguments"? You should notice that I did not make one, I was just asking questions. Can you shed light on displacement (question in my previous post).
Measured weight relies solely on air pressure acting upon any dense object.

It's why a lead ball weighs more than a wooden ball of the same size.
How much would the weight change if you were to put those balls in a vacuum chamber and remove 99.99% of the air pressure?
This is an excellent question because the only way of finding out, is to put scales into the vacuum chamber.
Now let me tell you what happens.

Scales are built under atmospheric conditions, so the atmospheric pressure is already on those scales, which is fine, because it's also on any objects' density, which is why we measure the weight.

To put those same scales into a vacuum chamber, is going to change the pressure on those scales, meaning they will (if they can go into minus) have that pressure released from them.
So putting balls into that environment, will make the balls look like they have lost weight.
The problem is (and I just know you are going to disagree with me), you are never going to evacuate that much pressure. If you did, you would immediately collapse the chamber. I know I know, let's leave this bit as it is because it will get to a case of, "no it won't " yes it will."


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rottingroom

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #405 on: November 20, 2014, 10:41:51 AM »
We get the idea of the ball coming back to you from you. From your explanation about why things fall down. Which for some reason only applies to down.

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sokarul

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #406 on: November 20, 2014, 11:07:59 AM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #407 on: November 20, 2014, 11:19:56 AM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.

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sokarul

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #408 on: November 20, 2014, 11:30:49 AM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.
Yes. What is your guess for what it should read?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #409 on: November 20, 2014, 11:40:13 AM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.
Yes. What is your guess for what it should read?
It depends what you place on the scale as some mass for reference.

Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #410 on: November 20, 2014, 11:47:58 AM »
"My  arguments"? You should notice that I did not make one, I was just asking questions. Can you shed light on displacement (question in my previous post).
Measured weight relies solely on air pressure acting upon any dense object.

It's why a lead ball weighs more than a wooden ball of the same size.
Objects side by side in same environment, lead ball has higher pressure all around it than a wooden ball, all else being equal??
Bingo.

What force causes the air to accumulate around the objects to create pressure, in amounts proportional to their density?

Could you address the question about displacement?
This is getting tedious. Are you deliberately not understanding what I've said or are you so absorbed in your gravity that you're simply not willing to understand what I'm saying?
Let's be clear on this before I go any further.
It's difficult to understand your theory because it is very non-intuitive to me and because it is in stark contrast with my prior knowledge. Good enough?

The above questions are I believe quite relevant. Pressure as we know it is always caused by something, and in our different balls example it seems to be caused by the objects the air surrounds; through what mechanism the density of an object determines what amount of air amasses by it's surface? Could we measure these pressure differences next to objects of different density?

Is air a special case or do objects of different densities displace different amounts of any fluid they're surrounded with?

And from an earlier question that I think was not fully answered:
Naturally it's not as strong a push as it is when the ball is acting against the higher pressure because it loses energy.
Energy. You established that the ball gains energy in form of compression and heat (in minuscule amounts), and it appears that the energy contained by a moving object is producing a force to keep it moving by spending this energy. Could you explain how unnoticeably small amounts of heat and compression do work to move our medicine ball upwards?

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sokarul

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #411 on: November 20, 2014, 11:48:49 AM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.
Yes. What is your guess for what it should read?
It depends what you place on the scale as some mass for reference.
I believe I can get masses from 1 gram to 20. Ill probably try and use a 5 gram mass as the scale doesn't go very high.
So what is 5 grams going to weight?
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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #412 on: November 20, 2014, 12:31:12 PM »

It's difficult to understand your theory because it is very non-intuitive to me and because it is in stark contrast with my prior knowledge. Good enough?
Yep, good enough.
The above questions are I believe quite relevant. Pressure as we know it is always caused by something, and in our different balls example it seems to be caused by the objects the air surrounds; through what mechanism the density of an object determines what amount of air amasses by it's surface?
No mechanism as such. It's the object itself and the density of it which determines how much atmospheric pressure it displaces, which is what's calculated on a man made measuring scale.
Take away the pressure upon any mass and you take away the mass itself. If you were to take all of the pressure, I mean.
If you were to take away a portion of pressure on that mass, then the measured weight would decrease, because that mass is not resisting that pressure and neitehr are the scales.

Could we measure these pressure differences next to objects of different density?
Believe it or not, you already are. Every time you place any mass on a scale, you are not measuring the mass, you are measuring the resistance of that masses push against the atmospheric pressure above it by what it displaces due to it's density.

Is air a special case or do objects of different densities displace different amounts of any fluid they're surrounded with?
They displace different amounts, it's just that people don't realise it because most people simply accept gravity for things falling and assume that's that.

Here's an example, so think about is seriously.
The reason why a block of lead and the same size sponge weight differently is simply due to how much atmospheric pressure their density can displace.
We know that lead can displace much of it's full density against that pressure, as it absorbs very little into it.

The sponge although the same size; absorbs most of the air pressure into it, leaving very little of it to push back. to give an idea of what it's pushing back, just imagine compressing that sponge as tight as you possible can. You would end up with a pea sized sponge, right?
This is all the atmospheric pressure that the sponge is really displacing.
Equate that to scale measurement and you can see why lead is heavy and a spong is light.
See what I mean?

And from an earlier question that I think was not fully answered:

sceptimatic:
"Naturally it's not as strong a push as it is when the ball is acting against the higher pressure because it loses energy."

Energy. You established that the ball gains energy in form of compression and heat (in minuscule amounts), and it appears that the energy contained by a moving object is producing a force to keep it moving by spending this energy. Could you explain how unnoticeably small amounts of heat and compression do work to move our medicine ball upwards?
Ok, now think of this in super fast motion to get the picture.
Imagine you throw that ball up into the air at 1000 mph (for instance). If you slowed the camera down, you would see the front of the medicine ball compress a good bit. Basically it's expanded itself sideways or down its sides, creating a super fast friction around it due to the compressed top of the ball. This friction would heat up the ball, creating a lower pressure around and back under it which has to be equalised and it does by a squeeze of atmosphere against that lower pressure.
the best way I can describe it without confusing it, is by imagining the ball being a wet bar of soap in your hand and you are trying to grab  it and squeezing it up every time you do. As long as your energy is applied like that, it will keep going.
As soon as you stop, then the friction against the compression up top, starts to exert that force back due to you no longer applying energy.

Now I admit, I've went extreme here to show you how it works but the same applies under a small energy load, it's just that we cannot see the effects with out puny throws.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #413 on: November 20, 2014, 12:33:50 PM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.
Yes. What is your guess for what it should read?
It depends what you place on the scale as some mass for reference.
I believe I can get masses from 1 gram to 20. Ill probably try and use a 5 gram mass as the scale doesn't go very high.
So what is 5 grams going to weight?
At a guess...and this is just a guess. I'll say you should get a reading of minus 5 grammes.

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rottingroom

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #414 on: November 20, 2014, 12:38:42 PM »
Thanks for that rant as it brought up a new hole. A ball that is thrown up harder should compress the air in front of it even more, thereby not going as far into the air as a ball thrown less hard and also slingshotting it back toward the earth at a faster acceleration. Of course this doesnt happen. Throw a ball up harder and it goes higher, seeming to be less effected by the compression of molecules in front of it than a ball thrown less hard. A lightly thrown ball and ball thrown harder both end up slowing down and returning to earth at the same acceleration. The faster ball doesn't slingshot. It doesn't accelerate faster.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 12:45:10 PM by rottingroom »

Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #415 on: November 20, 2014, 12:50:55 PM »
Well that was quite a read. I'll write up a response later, there are plenty of other things to ask about after reading that, but for now - I think you mean something completely different with 'displacement' than what it usually means. If so, could you refer to/explain that a bit.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 12:52:51 PM by neimoka »

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guv

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #416 on: November 20, 2014, 02:19:17 PM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.
Yes. What is your guess for what it should read?
It depends what you place on the scale as some mass for reference.
I believe I can get masses from 1 gram to 20. Ill probably try and use a 5 gram mass as the scale doesn't go very high.
So what is 5 grams going to weight?
At a guess...and this is just a guess. I'll say you should get a reading of minus 5 grammes.

I go for 5 grammes. 

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sokarul

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #417 on: November 20, 2014, 05:46:00 PM »
The mass is going to be 100 g, not 5 g. Here is the scale I will be using.
http://www.hornady.com/store/GS-1500-Grain-Electronic-Scale
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 05:48:24 PM by sokarul »
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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #418 on: November 21, 2014, 01:39:04 AM »
I have the ability to put a scale in a vacuum chamber. I can pull 20 inches of Hg as vacuum. What should the scale read? I will test it out tomorrow. Yes scales can go into the negative.
so you can evacuate 10 psi of pressure?

Stick the scales in and find out.
Yes. What is your guess for what it should read?
It depends what you place on the scale as some mass for reference.
I believe I can get masses from 1 gram to 20. Ill probably try and use a 5 gram mass as the scale doesn't go very high.
So what is 5 grams going to weight?
At a guess...and this is just a guess. I'll say you should get a reading of minus 5 grammes.
:P :P :P
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sceptimatic

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Re: Simple Balloon "Rocket"...
« Reply #419 on: November 21, 2014, 03:16:50 AM »
Well that was quite a read. I'll write up a response later, there are plenty of other things to ask about after reading that, but for now - I think you mean something completely different with 'displacement' than what it usually means. If so, could you refer to/explain that a bit.
No, I mean it exactly how I said it. The object and its density displaces the atmosphere that it finds itself in, whether it's on the deck or hoisted up in the air. It will displace whatever cannot be absorbed into it, as I explained with the lead and the sponge.
Give it some serious thought and you have a chance of carrying on and understanding that what you've been taught, or what you think you know about gravity, is simply, crap.
Denpressure is reality, gravity is fantasy.