Argument from Desire

CS Lewis popularized an argument that was in use since the middle ages. It states:

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

This demonstrates the existence of heaven and God, and it has merit. Why would we desire something impossible? What is the benefit, evolutionarily or otherwise, to perpetual disappointment? We innately have desires that will never be fulfilled in this world. We want perfect safety, comfort, knowledge, and the very fact we want this universally promises that there must be some cause that ties all humans together under this desire.
With no explanation for the existence of a desire that does not also have a fulfilment, as Lewis says, we are leaded to the conclusion of a divine hand and a sanctuary.

Can this be taken beyond just the topic of God? Are there ideals that surface inevitably, in countless cultures indepently across the world? What might we learn from them?
Before we are told what is, what is it humanity wants?

CS Lewis popularized an argument that was in use since the middle ages. It states:

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

This demonstrates the existence of heaven and God, and it has merit. Why would we desire something impossible? What is the benefit, evolutionarily or otherwise, to perpetual disappointment? We innately have desires that will never be fulfilled in this world. We want perfect safety, comfort, knowledge, and the very fact we want this universally promises that there must be some cause that ties all humans together under this desire.
With no explanation for the existence of a desire that does not also have a fulfilment, as Lewis says, we are leaded to the conclusion of a divine hand and a sanctuary.

Can this be taken beyond just the topic of God? Are there ideals that surface inevitably, in countless cultures indepently across the world? What might we learn from them?
Before we are told what is, what is it humanity wants?

A baby reaches for the mobile above it's head even though it's too small and weak to reach it.  It still wants it.

There are plenty of evolutionary reasons to make someone strive for what they can't have. They might not get it, but the act of reaching gets you further along. I try and do plenty of things perfectly, knowing I never will, but also knowing that trying gets me just a bit closer, and that's worthwhile.

You would have to show me that perfect happiness exists.  I certainly don't think anyone can be perfectly happy.  Not without a lobotomy and a lot of drugs, and even then, close isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect.

A baby reaches for the mobile above it's head even though it's too small and weak to reach it.  It still wants it.

There are plenty of evolutionary reasons to make someone strive for what they can't have. They might not get it, but the act of reaching gets you further along. I try and do plenty of things perfectly, knowing I never will, but also knowing that trying gets me just a bit closer, and that's worthwhile.

The mobile exists. Your goals exist. Just because you cannot yet do them does not mean it doesn't exist. I want to write a bestseller: I do not have the skill yet, but bestsellers certainly exist.

Perfect happiness may not exist in this world. Where, then, does it exist?

Quote from: JJA on August 15, 2020, 06:09:34 PM

A baby reaches for the mobile above it's head even though it's too small and weak to reach it.  It still wants it.

There are plenty of evolutionary reasons to make someone strive for what they can't have. They might not get it, but the act of reaching gets you further along. I try and do plenty of things perfectly, knowing I never will, but also knowing that trying gets me just a bit closer, and that's worthwhile.

The mobile exists. Your goals exist. Just because you cannot yet do them does not mean it doesn't exist. I want to write a bestseller: I do not have the skill yet, but bestsellers certainly exist.

Perfect happiness may not exist in this world. Where, then, does it exist?

I want to visit the center of the Sun and touch it. The desire is there. The sun is there. But I'm not going to ever get there. We can imagine things that are not possible and not real easily enough.

Why does it have to exist?  If it exists somewhere other than this universe, then we can only wonder and guess, and either believe it or not.  That's why we have faith, and you are free to believe anything you want.

Science works for everything else.

Not all we desire is real but does point to a real desire.

Ex: wanting lots of things could point to a deep need for an emotional connection.

Also, god is pretty evil so probably not perfect happiness.

Also also: by perfect, we want all our needs met without effort.  Which is possible without God.

I want to visit the center of the Sun and touch it.

Is that innate? Is that inherent to you? Not all desires are the same. We desire comfort and shelter and food, and every human no matter where they are on the planet or what culture they were raised in, will want the same.
Every stranger you ask will, ultimately, want this sense of sanctuary. How many will share this wish to touch the Sun?

Not all we desire is real but does point to a real desire.

Ex: wanting lots of things could point to a deep need for an emotional connection.

Also, god is pretty evil so probably not perfect happiness.

Also also: by perfect, we want all our needs met without effort.  Which is possible without God.

It isn't just about God.
Every innate desire is realized. It would make no sense for humans to fundamentally want something that isn't real, why would we be primed for disappointment? Those natural desires specifically must point to something.
Do you not wish for comfort, security and sanctuary? A good life? A lack of worry? Even a protector? Where do those things exist in this world, to the degree you desire? Much of the world's hardships can be put down to people trying to be satisfied with less.

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Quote from: JJA on August 15, 2020, 06:20:01 PM

I want to visit the center of the Sun and touch it.

Is that innate? Is that inherent to you? Not all desires are the same. We desire comfort and shelter and food, and every human no matter where they are on the planet or what culture they were raised in, will want the same.
Every stranger you ask will, ultimately, want this sense of sanctuary. How many will share this wish to touch the Sun?

Not every human desires comfort. Plenty of them in fact, do the opposite. You can find plenty of religions where the goal is to deny comfort.

I guess I don't see why you put all this emphasis on a few things like "everyone wants" to determine if it's a "real desire" or not.

All seems very arbitrary to me and not really debatable. You have your opinions, I have mine.

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:26:11 AM

Quote from: JJA on August 15, 2020, 06:20:01 PM

I want to visit the center of the Sun and touch it.

Is that innate? Is that inherent to you? Not all desires are the same. We desire comfort and shelter and food, and every human no matter where they are on the planet or what culture they were raised in, will want the same.
Every stranger you ask will, ultimately, want this sense of sanctuary. How many will share this wish to touch the Sun?

Not every human desires comfort. Plenty of them in fact, do the opposite. You can find plenty of religions where the goal is to deny comfort.

I guess I don't see why you put all this emphasis on a few things like "everyone wants" to determine if it's a "real desire" or not.

All seems very arbitrary to me and not really debatable. You have your opinions, I have mine.

Not everything is as simple as an opinion. If it were, why would anyone, philosopher or scientist, try to determine the truth of the world? There are things outside of our mind.
There are many paths people take, but all want the same destination. People deny themselves some comforts, but they do so because it brings them a form of satisfaction. if they hated every second, if they felt it was pointless, if they thought it achieved nothing, they would not do it. They always have a goal. It is just that, in many ways, trying to attain certain goals in this world is contradictory.

Quote from: JJA on August 16, 2020, 06:20:28 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:26:11 AM

Quote from: JJA on August 15, 2020, 06:20:01 PM

I want to visit the center of the Sun and touch it.

Is that innate? Is that inherent to you? Not all desires are the same. We desire comfort and shelter and food, and every human no matter where they are on the planet or what culture they were raised in, will want the same.
Every stranger you ask will, ultimately, want this sense of sanctuary. How many will share this wish to touch the Sun?

Not every human desires comfort. Plenty of them in fact, do the opposite. You can find plenty of religions where the goal is to deny comfort.

I guess I don't see why you put all this emphasis on a few things like "everyone wants" to determine if it's a "real desire" or not.

All seems very arbitrary to me and not really debatable. You have your opinions, I have mine.

Not everything is as simple as an opinion. If it were, why would anyone, philosopher or scientist, try to determine the truth of the world? There are things outside of our mind.
There are many paths people take, but all want the same destination. People deny themselves some comforts, but they do so because it brings them a form of satisfaction. if they hated every second, if they felt it was pointless, if they thought it achieved nothing, they would not do it. They always have a goal. It is just that, in many ways, trying to attain certain goals in this world is contradictory.

In this case it is as simple as an opinion. If it exists beyond things we can observe than all we can have are opinions.

You can't prove the truth one way or another about the un-proveable.

Discussing and arguing and debating existence is as old as time and part of human nature. That's fine. You just can't claim any of it as proof or absolute truth.

Quote from: Jamie on August 16, 2020, 05:36:42 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Again, our idea of that happiness likely differs. What I think of or experience as happiness probably isn't what you think of or experience as happiness.

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:45:58 AM

Quote from: Jamie on August 16, 2020, 05:36:42 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Again, our idea of that happiness likely differs. What I think of or experience as happiness probably isn't what you think of or experience as happiness.

Is it not? The very fact I say the word and you immediately think of a pleasant and enjoyable state of affairs would seem to discredit that notion.
What that state of affairs is, yes, we might disagree upon that, but happiness itself? One of us might be active, the other passive, one of us might prefer struggle and satisfaction while the other prefers contentment, all of that does indeed vary. But the concept of happiness itself does not.

In this case it is as simple as an opinion. If it exists beyond things we can observe than all we can have are opinions.

Why?

Quote from: JJA on August 18, 2020, 05:24:33 PM

In this case it is as simple as an opinion. If it exists beyond things we can observe than all we can have are opinions.

Why?

Because if you can't observe something, all you have is your own thoughts on it.

Are you asking why we can't explain the explainable?  Science deals with stuff we can see, faith deals with stuff we can't.

Or as it was put better, science deals with the how, faith deals with the why.

Both are useful, but don't get them mixed up.

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 20, 2020, 01:58:04 PM

Quote from: JJA on August 18, 2020, 05:24:33 PM

In this case it is as simple as an opinion. If it exists beyond things we can observe than all we can have are opinions.

Why?

Because if you can't observe something, all you have is your own thoughts on it.

That doesn't mean all you have is opinion. Renee Descartes famously asked himself what could be derived if he knew nothing, not even that his perceptions were accurate. 'I think, therefore I am,' became the foundation for several schools of thought. Would you brush something so fundamental off as 'opinion?' It came only from his own thoughts, but that does not mean it has no truth or no value.

Quote from: JJA on August 20, 2020, 02:29:08 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 20, 2020, 01:58:04 PM

Quote from: JJA on August 18, 2020, 05:24:33 PM

In this case it is as simple as an opinion. If it exists beyond things we can observe than all we can have are opinions.

Why?

Because if you can't observe something, all you have is your own thoughts on it.

That doesn't mean all you have is opinion. Renee Descartes famously asked himself what could be derived if he knew nothing, not even that his perceptions were accurate. 'I think, therefore I am,' became the foundation for several schools of thought. Would you brush something so fundamental off as 'opinion?' It came only from his own thoughts, but that does not mean it has no truth or no value.

It has value but has no objective proof.

How am I to know that he thought that? He could have been a robot programmed to. Or could have lied.

It has truth to HIM, but that's what faith is, it's personal. His faith doesn't mean anything to me. It's not proof of anything.

"Schools of thought" is prety vague, and I'm guessing all are faith or philosophy based.

Science is a very specific thing, grounded in reality, in observations, in predictions.

You can have your faith, and you can have science too if you accept it. If you can't accept both, that's your failing, not science.

Why does it always come back to this false dichotomy between faith and science? Nothing I have said has been about faith. Faith and pure reason aren't the same thing. Just because physical evidence is lacking does not mean no conclusions can be drawn.
You are correct in that faith alone is meaningless, it is used as a fill-in for when someone cannot fully elucidate on some aspect of their worldview, but philosophy is comprised of countless fully elucidated aspects. There is no room for faith in reason.

Science is specific. When it moves beyond the realms of that specificity, that is when you need philosophy. Science tells you how things happen: science can tell you which parts of your brain are active when you desire, science can break down the core motives in what it is you desire, to explain what would need to be achieved.
It cannot tell you the ultimate question of why those desires came about. For that, you must move beyond.

Quote from: Jamie on August 19, 2020, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:45:58 AM

Quote from: Jamie on August 16, 2020, 05:36:42 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Again, our idea of that happiness likely differs. What I think of or experience as happiness probably isn't what you think of or experience as happiness.

Is it not? The very fact I say the word and you immediately think of a pleasant and enjoyable state of affairs would seem to discredit that notion.
What that state of affairs is, yes, we might disagree upon that, but happiness itself? One of us might be active, the other passive, one of us might prefer struggle and satisfaction while the other prefers contentment, all of that does indeed vary. But the concept of happiness itself does not.

... so our idea of happiness differs?

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 20, 2020, 01:57:18 PM

Quote from: Jamie on August 19, 2020, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:45:58 AM

Quote from: Jamie on August 16, 2020, 05:36:42 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Again, our idea of that happiness likely differs. What I think of or experience as happiness probably isn't what you think of or experience as happiness.

Is it not? The very fact I say the word and you immediately think of a pleasant and enjoyable state of affairs would seem to discredit that notion.
What that state of affairs is, yes, we might disagree upon that, but happiness itself? One of us might be active, the other passive, one of us might prefer struggle and satisfaction while the other prefers contentment, all of that does indeed vary. But the concept of happiness itself does not.

... so our idea of happiness differs?

We may be talking at cross-purposes.
How are you defining happiness when you speak of it, the emotion, or the goal tangled up with it?
The emotion does not vary in any significant way. The goal however might.

Quote from: Jamie on August 20, 2020, 05:02:26 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 20, 2020, 01:57:18 PM

Quote from: Jamie on August 19, 2020, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:45:58 AM

Quote from: Jamie on August 16, 2020, 05:36:42 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Again, our idea of that happiness likely differs. What I think of or experience as happiness probably isn't what you think of or experience as happiness.

Is it not? The very fact I say the word and you immediately think of a pleasant and enjoyable state of affairs would seem to discredit that notion.
What that state of affairs is, yes, we might disagree upon that, but happiness itself? One of us might be active, the other passive, one of us might prefer struggle and satisfaction while the other prefers contentment, all of that does indeed vary. But the concept of happiness itself does not.

... so our idea of happiness differs?

We may be talking at cross-purposes.
How are you defining happiness when you speak of it, the emotion, or the goal tangled up with it?
The emotion does not vary in any significant way. The goal however might.

How does the emotion not vary in any significant way? Happiness for someone may be an emotional sense of quiet, calming contentment whereas happiness for another may be an emotional sense of utter elation and wild unabashed exuberance.

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 20, 2020, 05:04:05 PM

Quote from: Jamie on August 20, 2020, 05:02:26 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 20, 2020, 01:57:18 PM

Quote from: Jamie on August 19, 2020, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 16, 2020, 05:45:58 AM

Quote from: Jamie on August 16, 2020, 05:36:42 AM

Quote from: SergeantPepper on August 15, 2020, 06:04:30 PM

Every natural or innate desire we experience points to something real. We have a desire for perfect happiness, a perfect guide: therefore, this happiness and guide do exist.

Our ideas of that happiness and of that guide likely differ.

Our ideas of how they might be attained, perhaps, but can you truly say you don't want that feeling of happiness?

Again, our idea of that happiness likely differs. What I think of or experience as happiness probably isn't what you think of or experience as happiness.

Is it not? The very fact I say the word and you immediately think of a pleasant and enjoyable state of affairs would seem to discredit that notion.
What that state of affairs is, yes, we might disagree upon that, but happiness itself? One of us might be active, the other passive, one of us might prefer struggle and satisfaction while the other prefers contentment, all of that does indeed vary. But the concept of happiness itself does not.

... so our idea of happiness differs?

We may be talking at cross-purposes.
How are you defining happiness when you speak of it, the emotion, or the goal tangled up with it?
The emotion does not vary in any significant way. The goal however might.

How does the emotion not vary in any significant way? Happiness for someone may be an emotional sense of quiet, calming contentment whereas happiness for another may be an emotional sense of utter elation and wild unabashed exuberance.

What is a home?
Some people have vast mansions, with dozens of bedrooms, expansive grounds, pools, fountains, mazes, portraits, gold toilets... Others have small one-bedroom apartments. Others have tents, or handmade shacks made of scrap metal they found, or just preferred spots on the ground. If you were to put all these side by side, they would seem as different as your conceptions of happiness.
But the word 'home' still has meaning, it is still used. People might have different ideas of one, but that doesn't render the word meaningless.

It is much the same for happiness. What you are describing is not joy, it the process by which one attains joy. Quiet contentment or unabashed exbuberance are pathways, they are the raw bricks and mortar, but they all lead to the same place, for the right people. Happiness and home.

Happiness is reduced expectations.