What would change your mind?

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rvlvr

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1110 on: October 28, 2020, 06:58:47 AM »
Little experiments?  What sort of 'little experiments' have you done to conclude that the sun is actually the holographic image generated by a giant hydrogen/mineral cyclone fueled graphite electrode based electrical arc?  It is so bizarrely specific. 
Those are groundbreaking experiments, if there really have been those with proper results.

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sokarul

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1111 on: October 28, 2020, 07:07:20 AM »
Good luck figuring it out. Sceptitank performed a laser experiment that showed the earth is flat. But he hid all the data.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1112 on: October 28, 2020, 08:16:21 AM »
Good luck figuring it out. Sceptitank performed a laser experiment that showed the earth is flat. But he hid all the data.

Seems a common theme.  The Bishop experiment, Pete's super secret experiments.  All this proof is out there but nobody is allowed to see it.  Not sure who they all think they are fooling. Themselves, most likely.

I'm hoping to do the moon bounce test this summer if all works out just for fun.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1113 on: October 28, 2020, 09:28:00 AM »
Quote
By rotating like a cyclone...like a big electric motor projecting it's light/heat source around the dome which creates a sort of breathing dome. Basically expanding and compressing as it moves around it due to agitation or lack of and it moves over and away.
This also creates the tides.
The seasons are created by angled reflection as the energy moves up and down a sort of internal spiral.

It all seems so simple and obvious when you put it like that doesn't it.  Why didn't any of us realise this before?  Just two words come to mind after reading all that.  One is utter and I'll leave the other to your imagination.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 09:30:17 AM by Solarwind »

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rvlvr

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1114 on: October 28, 2020, 09:29:10 AM »
It is odd, yet FE says they have it all figured out. And Sceptimatic’s musings are on the funny farm end of that spectrum.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1115 on: October 28, 2020, 09:33:00 AM »
I just wonder whether Scepti has ever considered a career as a childrens story writer because he has the imagination to write some brilliant ones.  Once upon a time in a land far, far away there was this powerful, magic crystal.  Etc.. etc.

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1116 on: October 28, 2020, 09:39:59 AM »
Even childrens’ stories need internal logic.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1117 on: October 28, 2020, 10:40:54 AM »
The best way to read everything Scepti writes is to completely put to one side everything you ever thought you knew about science. None of that is relevant. Now start with a totally clean slate and take everything he says a step at a time.  Then try and see if any of it makes any sense.  So far I have tried and failed miserably.  I just don't see how any of it can possibly work.  You need a massive energy source to provide the power in the first place.  I can't see what that power source could be. Other than if you just accept that it does.

On the other hand our current models for the solar interior does make sense but from Sceptis point of view we would first of all have to be able to make our own model Sun in our living rooms so we can prove we are right.  Any volunteers to make a model Sun?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 10:44:23 AM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1118 on: October 28, 2020, 11:38:22 PM »
Sceptimatic, I'd like you to explain to me in dumbed down fashion, your method proving the earth is flat. Keep it really simple for me, like I know nothing. Imagine I'm a total idiot (which shouldn't be a problem for you)

Imagine you are standing beside me, at whatever destination you like, and I'll give you whatever tools you like. Now, you have to show me, step by step, how what you do, proves earth is flat. You can use the most recent technology available, or you can use the most basic tools, or no tools. Your choice.   :D

Give me what I need to change my global mind.
We will both sit  next to a bath full of water. We will put a floating board on that water along with a spirit level.
You can observe the level bubble being in the centre.

Also you can get yourself a football, place it in the bath water and pour some water on it and see if that water does not run off it into the bath.
What do you think?
Easy enough, even for you.

It is easy. But let's make it easier. How about we place the bathtub of water in an industrial freezer and freeze it. Then we won't have to worry about the floating board. We can just place the spirit level on straight on top. It will prove the water in the bathtub is level. I only wish you were on the level, Sceptimatic.

When you say football, I assume you mean "soccer ball", which is a spherical ball shape? Yes. Pour some water on the soccer ball or urinate on it, and watch the water go into the bathtub, proving the law of gravity continues to work just fine.

Nothing to prove the earth is flat from your experiments, though, scepti! I hope that isn't the best you can do?

Just for a bit of fun, we'll take the soccer ball and move the top edge in close to one of our eyes at eye level until it can't go any closer, and watch the curved edge flatten out. Another little experiment for you to remember the next time you look at the horizon, ey, Sceptimatic? Lol!  >:D
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 12:10:32 AM by Smoke Machine »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1119 on: October 29, 2020, 01:02:26 AM »


The problem here is that you've sketched an experiment, but you've left out all the detail. The sort of detail you always demand from the rest of us when we're trying to explain something to you.

Clearly I can't just pick up a kitchen roll tube and some cotton and prove anything to anyone. Nobody can repeat your experiment based on the limited information you've given. Fill in the details and we can ask you questions about your experiment for a change.

How are you keeping your tube still? Is it resting on something? If so, what?

How are you making sure the tube is level? Are you using a spirit level for instance? Are you fixing the tube to the level?

How do the cross hairs help? I mean you can move your eye up and down and the cross hairs will point at different things won't they?

Does it matter how high up you are? If so, why?

Fill in all the blanks and we can have a discussion.
Why you need to ask me this is absolutely beyond me...it really is.
Have you ever used a spirit level to level anything up?

Are you telling me you can't understand what I've just said?
You can set your tube up on anything and level it.
Stick it on a tripod with glue...tape or a clamp, or whatever.
No tripod?....Stick it on a window sill if you ace the sea.
If in your car at the seaside then jam it in your car window, lightly  and level it. It's really not difficult.

I could mention many many other ways but you surely must get it.

If you're playing games then no problem...we can just carry on.

A few problems here. For one, you've already publicly stated that no matter what the experiment shows, especially if you are wrong, is that:

As for me, I will never accept anything you try to tell me about the horizon, unless you actually tell me what I already know to be true.

So no matter what the outcome, if it doesn't match what you think is right, you would never accept it anyway. Hardly scientific. But you must get that asking someone to do the experiment is pretty much futile. Right? You don't offer a lot of motivation to go and do it if you won't accept the outcome, no matter what, if it doesn't conform to your belief. You get that, right?

For two, the reason why we're asking for details goes back to the hubris you have about explaining things and how you are perpetually mystified why no one gets it because you believe you explain things amazingly well. You don't. Perfect case in point here.

So what is the experiment? Take a straight tube of some sort, maybe a foot long, an inch in diameter or more, mount and level it onto something horizontally and look through it out over a horizon? And the horizon line should line up straight across the mid-point of the far end of the tube regardless of height of the set-up? Is that it?

If so, and I do it at altitude and it shows that the horizon line is below the midpoint of the end of the tube, would you except that to be true even though you've already said that no matter what you wouldn't?
Go and do it for yourself. Not for me. Not for your friends. Not for your family. For you.

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you in this instance that you cannot prove to yourself.
That's the crux..
You can sit and ague with me all day long and deny anything you feel the need to. It's your choice......but.....if you are interested in questioning the indoctrinated nonsense we were all brought up with, you'll check it all out for yourself.
If you are happy with the indoctrinated nonsense we were bullied into, then disregard anything that goes against it and just carry on as you are. I'm fine with it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1120 on: October 29, 2020, 01:05:00 AM »
Quote
Who told you that?

Sorry I forgot your no 1 rule.  Don't believe anything unless you've done it yourself.  Well I would experiment myself with nuclear fusion at home but there are two reasons I don't.  Firstly its illegal and secondly I don't want to risk blowing myself up.  So yes I have to rely on other sources to explain to me how it works.

No one told me that.  It's just something you learn whenever you do a physics degree.  When you do the sums it all works very neatly.
I could do the same. I could pull a live rabbit out of a hat. I've seen magicians do it but when I try it with the same empty hat, no rabbit appears.
Maybe I should go and sit back in the audience and watch the magician do it again and then still ponder it. Right?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1121 on: October 29, 2020, 01:12:26 AM »
Quote from: robinofloxley
Find someone else to answer that question. I have a method to show you, if you want to hear about it fine, drop all the other conditions and let's just stick to this method. You say you want simple and then you insist on trying to complicate everything.

Come on, get on with it will you!
Ok then let's get on with it. Bit by bit. one small piece at a time with explanations of how and why, before we even try to move on.
Off you go then.

OK, so I think (difficult to be sure) that you are fine with step 1 - two people taking simultaneous photos of the moon. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Step 2.

First part is to figure out the linear size of a pixel on the camera's sensor. The specs for some cameras quote that figure directly, but if not, take the physical width of the sensor (usually given in mm) and divide by the number of horizontal pixels. Since this number is a fraction of a mm, you can convert to µm if you want as the numbers are more convenient.

Second part of this is to work out the angle represented by one pixel. This depends on how much you are zoomed in. The more you are zoomed in, the smaller this is.

The calculation is pixel size / focal length of lens. The result is in radians, so either keep it in radians or convert to degrees, or since the numbers are very small, convert to arcminutes or arcseconds for convenience. The units for pixel size and focal length have to match so either use mm for both or µm for both.

That's step 2. OK with this or do you have questions? Please let's keep this on track so questions should be about the method and not diving off into some other topic entirely.
Ok, so just to be clear about this camera and pixel stuff, before we go any further....how much...in size... do the pixels change from your standpoint to, say.....10 miles away full zoom?


Once you answer that can you then equate that to 240,000 miles away zoom, as your moon apparently is....or am I not getting this?

Not sure I entirely understand the question, but I'll have a go at explaining this a bit more, see if it helps.

This example image shows the moon taken with a zoom lens at 400mm, 500mm and 1000mm settings.



The image is 440px wide and let's assume that's not been cropped, so is the whole width of the sensor. It's a real low res camera in this example. Let's assume the sensor is a DX format, so say 24mm wide.

Each pixel is therefore 24/440 mm wide (approx 0.066mm). That pixel size is fixed. It can't change no matter what zoom setting you use. It's a physical pixel on the sensor.

What does change as you zoom is the angular size of each pixel. That is to say the amount of sky each pixel captures. Zoom in and you are capturing a smaller part of the sky, i.e. more detail, with each pixel. To calculate that value, divide pixel size by focal length. So for example for the 400mm zoom, that's 0.066/400 = 0.000136364 radians or 0.007813061 degrees. Do the same calculation for the others and you get 0.006250449 (500mm zoom) and 0.003125224 (1000mm zoom).

Notice how the angular pixel size has gone down from roughly 0.007, to 0.006 to 0.003 as the focal length has increased.

Now we can use these to work out the angular width of the moon. Just multiply the angular size of a pixel by the number of pixels.

At 400mm, that's 0.007813061 x 65 = 0.508 degrees.
At 500mm, that's 0.006250449 x 81 = 0.506 degrees.
At 1000mm, that's 0.003125224 x 160 = 0.500 degrees.

There's a little bit of variation because the image is very low res so the pixel widths aren't that accurate, but the point is, it's saying the moon is 1/2 degree wide no matter whether it's zoomed in or zoomed out. Which is correct.

Once we've done this pixel size calculation, if we know the focal length we're using we can convert pixel distances on the image to angular distances. That's the point of this step.
Ok, so what is the width of the moon?

Ok as in ok with this step, no more questions on the method?

Honestly, why not try giving clear and simple unambiguous answers. All I need to know at each stage is, are you clear about the method so far or do I need to explain further.

The moon is approximately 1/2 degree wide.
Ok, carry on.

Step 3:

Take the two photos. Use some photo editing software, such as PhotoShop. Overlay the images. Slide and rotate the two moon images until they sit on top of each other with all the features (craters etc.) lining up.

Remember that both images also include at least one nearby bright star (let's call this our reference star).

The reference star will appear to have shifted position, so the merged image will contain two images of the reference star. In fact all the stars in the image will all appear to have shifted by the same amount in the same direction.

Since we know the stars haven't moved, we conclude the moon must have (or at least appeared to).

How much did the moon appear to shift between the two images? Well if we measure the distance (in pixels) between the two different positions of the reference star, then that must be how much the moon has shifted.

Think of it this way. Put a chair next to a table in an otherwise featureless room. Take a photo, centred on the chair. Move the chair away from the table. Take another photo, again centred on the chair. The two photos suggest the table has been moved, but we know it's the other way around. By measuring the amount the table appeared to move, we then know how much the chair actually moved.

We now know by how many pixels the moon apparently shifted. Since we also have a method to convert pixel distance to angular distance, we can now calculate the angle the moon has shifted by.

That's step 3. OK with this step?

NB: to avoid me having to ask you to clarify your answer to this, if/when you are OK with this step, how about you just say "Yes, I'm OK with this step" or something very similar. Obviously if you have questions, go ahead and ask.
Not really ok, no.
What would happen if the point of light ( your star) in your picture, near your moon is very close to your moon and looking like it does to you, rather than what you're told in terms of light years away?

How does this marry up with pixels?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1122 on: October 29, 2020, 01:14:14 AM »


The problem here is that you've sketched an experiment, but you've left out all the detail. The sort of detail you always demand from the rest of us when we're trying to explain something to you.

Clearly I can't just pick up a kitchen roll tube and some cotton and prove anything to anyone. Nobody can repeat your experiment based on the limited information you've given. Fill in the details and we can ask you questions about your experiment for a change.

How are you keeping your tube still? Is it resting on something? If so, what?

How are you making sure the tube is level? Are you using a spirit level for instance? Are you fixing the tube to the level?

How do the cross hairs help? I mean you can move your eye up and down and the cross hairs will point at different things won't they?

Does it matter how high up you are? If so, why?

Fill in all the blanks and we can have a discussion.
Why you need to ask me this is absolutely beyond me...it really is.
Have you ever used a spirit level to level anything up?

Are you telling me you can't understand what I've just said?
You can set your tube up on anything and level it.
Stick it on a tripod with glue...tape or a clamp, or whatever.
No tripod?....Stick it on a window sill if you ace the sea.
If in your car at the seaside then jam it in your car window, lightly  and level it. It's really not difficult.

I could mention many many other ways but you surely must get it.

If you're playing games then no problem...we can just carry on.

I'm just asking you to follow your own rules. Spell everything out so any one of us could go outside and follow your instructions to the letter. If you don't do this then there are bound to be misunderstandings.

We can't just follow your original instructions using just the tools you've specified. Basically you've said go outside with just a cardboard tube and some cotton and confirm the horizon is level.

You've said make sure the tube is level, but all I've got in my hand at this point is a cardboard tube and some cotton.

If you want us to use a tripod and a spirit level and some tape, just say so. Otherwise I'll just use some tubing, filled with a red dyed liquid instead. Can I use that for a level? If you don't tell me I can't, then I'm going to the top of a mountain, overlooking the sea, with my tubing. I'm going to hold the cardboard tube next to the tubing and take a picture with the crosshairs pointing at the sky. Job done. Except that you'll (rightly) pick holes in my method.

You yourself insist on this level of detail from us, so why is it not OK to have the same from you?
I've given you an easy way to do the test. Do it or don't; it's your choice.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1123 on: October 29, 2020, 01:16:20 AM »
Quote
By rotating like a cyclone...like a big electric motor projecting it's light/heat source around the dome which creates a sort of breathing dome. Basically expanding and compressing as it moves around it due to agitation or lack of and it moves over and away.
This also creates the tides.
The seasons are created by angled reflection as the energy moves up and down a sort of internal spiral.

It all seems so simple and obvious when you put it like that doesn't it.  Why didn't any of us realise this before?  Just two words come to mind after reading all that.  One is utter and I'll leave the other to your imagination.
Brilliant.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1124 on: October 29, 2020, 01:22:17 AM »
Sceptimatic, I'd like you to explain to me in dumbed down fashion, your method proving the earth is flat. Keep it really simple for me, like I know nothing. Imagine I'm a total idiot (which shouldn't be a problem for you)

Imagine you are standing beside me, at whatever destination you like, and I'll give you whatever tools you like. Now, you have to show me, step by step, how what you do, proves earth is flat. You can use the most recent technology available, or you can use the most basic tools, or no tools. Your choice.   :D

Give me what I need to change my global mind.
We will both sit  next to a bath full of water. We will put a floating board on that water along with a spirit level.
You can observe the level bubble being in the centre.

Also you can get yourself a football, place it in the bath water and pour some water on it and see if that water does not run off it into the bath.
What do you think?
Easy enough, even for you.

It is easy. But let's make it easier. How about we place the bathtub of water in an industrial freezer and freeze it. Then we won't have to worry about the floating board. We can just place the spirit level on straight on top. It will prove the water in the bathtub is level. I only wish you were on the level, Sceptimatic.

When you say football, I assume you mean "soccer ball", which is a spherical ball shape? Yes. Pour some water on the soccer ball or urinate on it, and watch the water go into the bathtub, proving the law of gravity continues to work just fine.

Nothing to prove the earth is flat from your experiments, though, scepti! I hope that isn't the best you can do?

Just for a bit of fun, we'll take the soccer ball and move the top edge in close to one of our eyes at eye level until it can't go any closer, and watch the curved edge flatten out. Another little experiment for you to remember the next time you look at the horizon, ey, Sceptimatic? Lol!  >:D
Horizon is a good starting point. HORIZON.
Thanks.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1125 on: October 29, 2020, 01:44:15 AM »
Quote
Brilliant.

You are right.  It would be utterly brilliant.  If you could prove you are right.  Which you can't.  As it is I was thinking of another word beginning with B. Well there's a choice of two actually if you add an S as well.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1126 on: October 29, 2020, 01:47:29 AM »
Quote
Brilliant.

You are right.  It would be utterly brilliant.  If you could prove you are right.  Which you can't.  As it is I was thinking of another word beginning with B. Well there's a choice of two actually if you add an S as well.
Brilliants?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1127 on: October 29, 2020, 01:50:07 AM »
There is no plural of the word brilliant as you well know.   So no... try again.

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1128 on: October 29, 2020, 01:58:55 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_(diamond_cut)

I guess there might be a plural, but not 100% sure of that.

EDIT:

noun
plural noun: brilliants
a diamond of brilliant cut.
"an elegant necklace with four rows of brilliants"
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 02:00:36 AM by rvlvr »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1129 on: October 29, 2020, 02:05:40 AM »
Regardless, brilliant is most certainly not the word I was thinking of.  The only way I would associate the word brilliant with Scepti is in the context of his imagination.  And it seems like if he can imagine it that is proof enough for him.  If that's the case then perhaps he should revise his understanding of what proof means.

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1130 on: October 29, 2020, 02:18:20 AM »
Regardless, brilliant is most certainly not the word I was thinking of.  The only way I would associate the word brilliant with Scepti is in the context of his imagination.  And it seems like if he can imagine it that is proof enough for him.  If that's the case then perhaps he should revise his understanding of what proof means.
I can understand that, but credit where credit is due.

Not much sense in anything if one does not own up to their mistakes.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1131 on: October 29, 2020, 02:54:22 AM »
Quote
Not much sense in anything if one does not own up to their mistakes.

Tell that to Scepti.

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1132 on: October 29, 2020, 02:59:58 AM »
It goes for him, too. I do not think that needs specific emphasis.

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JackBlack

  • 21826
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1133 on: October 29, 2020, 03:17:03 AM »
Go and do it for yourself.
Plenty of us have, or have done something similar, and it proves you are wrong.
Perhaps you should try doing it not only for yourself but for everyone, but most importantly for yourself.

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you in this instance that you cannot prove to yourself.
That is only the case if you are willing to accept what all the available evidence shows, that the horizon is BELOW the convergence point.
If you wish to claim that the horizon is magically glue to the convergence point then you most certainly have something to prove which we cannot prove to ourselves.

That's the crux..
You are outright rejecting reality, rejecting experiments we have done ourselves and the experiments of others. You dismiss these results as cheating and repeat the same false claims backed up by literally nothing.

Stop telling us to go and do an experiment when this experiment shows you are wrong.

Now again, care to deal with the fact that the horizon is observed to be below eye level?
Or any of the other multitude of issues you continue to ignore to promote your FE nonsense?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1134 on: October 29, 2020, 03:45:45 AM »
Quote from: robinofloxley
Find someone else to answer that question. I have a method to show you, if you want to hear about it fine, drop all the other conditions and let's just stick to this method. You say you want simple and then you insist on trying to complicate everything.

Come on, get on with it will you!
Ok then let's get on with it. Bit by bit. one small piece at a time with explanations of how and why, before we even try to move on.
Off you go then.

OK, so I think (difficult to be sure) that you are fine with step 1 - two people taking simultaneous photos of the moon. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Step 2.

First part is to figure out the linear size of a pixel on the camera's sensor. The specs for some cameras quote that figure directly, but if not, take the physical width of the sensor (usually given in mm) and divide by the number of horizontal pixels. Since this number is a fraction of a mm, you can convert to µm if you want as the numbers are more convenient.

Second part of this is to work out the angle represented by one pixel. This depends on how much you are zoomed in. The more you are zoomed in, the smaller this is.

The calculation is pixel size / focal length of lens. The result is in radians, so either keep it in radians or convert to degrees, or since the numbers are very small, convert to arcminutes or arcseconds for convenience. The units for pixel size and focal length have to match so either use mm for both or µm for both.

That's step 2. OK with this or do you have questions? Please let's keep this on track so questions should be about the method and not diving off into some other topic entirely.
Ok, so just to be clear about this camera and pixel stuff, before we go any further....how much...in size... do the pixels change from your standpoint to, say.....10 miles away full zoom?


Once you answer that can you then equate that to 240,000 miles away zoom, as your moon apparently is....or am I not getting this?

Not sure I entirely understand the question, but I'll have a go at explaining this a bit more, see if it helps.

This example image shows the moon taken with a zoom lens at 400mm, 500mm and 1000mm settings.



The image is 440px wide and let's assume that's not been cropped, so is the whole width of the sensor. It's a real low res camera in this example. Let's assume the sensor is a DX format, so say 24mm wide.

Each pixel is therefore 24/440 mm wide (approx 0.066mm). That pixel size is fixed. It can't change no matter what zoom setting you use. It's a physical pixel on the sensor.

What does change as you zoom is the angular size of each pixel. That is to say the amount of sky each pixel captures. Zoom in and you are capturing a smaller part of the sky, i.e. more detail, with each pixel. To calculate that value, divide pixel size by focal length. So for example for the 400mm zoom, that's 0.066/400 = 0.000136364 radians or 0.007813061 degrees. Do the same calculation for the others and you get 0.006250449 (500mm zoom) and 0.003125224 (1000mm zoom).

Notice how the angular pixel size has gone down from roughly 0.007, to 0.006 to 0.003 as the focal length has increased.

Now we can use these to work out the angular width of the moon. Just multiply the angular size of a pixel by the number of pixels.

At 400mm, that's 0.007813061 x 65 = 0.508 degrees.
At 500mm, that's 0.006250449 x 81 = 0.506 degrees.
At 1000mm, that's 0.003125224 x 160 = 0.500 degrees.

There's a little bit of variation because the image is very low res so the pixel widths aren't that accurate, but the point is, it's saying the moon is 1/2 degree wide no matter whether it's zoomed in or zoomed out. Which is correct.

Once we've done this pixel size calculation, if we know the focal length we're using we can convert pixel distances on the image to angular distances. That's the point of this step.
Ok, so what is the width of the moon?

Ok as in ok with this step, no more questions on the method?

Honestly, why not try giving clear and simple unambiguous answers. All I need to know at each stage is, are you clear about the method so far or do I need to explain further.

The moon is approximately 1/2 degree wide.
Ok, carry on.

Step 3:

Take the two photos. Use some photo editing software, such as PhotoShop. Overlay the images. Slide and rotate the two moon images until they sit on top of each other with all the features (craters etc.) lining up.

Remember that both images also include at least one nearby bright star (let's call this our reference star).

The reference star will appear to have shifted position, so the merged image will contain two images of the reference star. In fact all the stars in the image will all appear to have shifted by the same amount in the same direction.

Since we know the stars haven't moved, we conclude the moon must have (or at least appeared to).

How much did the moon appear to shift between the two images? Well if we measure the distance (in pixels) between the two different positions of the reference star, then that must be how much the moon has shifted.

Think of it this way. Put a chair next to a table in an otherwise featureless room. Take a photo, centred on the chair. Move the chair away from the table. Take another photo, again centred on the chair. The two photos suggest the table has been moved, but we know it's the other way around. By measuring the amount the table appeared to move, we then know how much the chair actually moved.

We now know by how many pixels the moon apparently shifted. Since we also have a method to convert pixel distance to angular distance, we can now calculate the angle the moon has shifted by.

That's step 3. OK with this step?

NB: to avoid me having to ask you to clarify your answer to this, if/when you are OK with this step, how about you just say "Yes, I'm OK with this step" or something very similar. Obviously if you have questions, go ahead and ask.
Not really ok, no.
What would happen if the point of light ( your star) in your picture, near your moon is very close to your moon and looking like it does to you, rather than what you're told in terms of light years away?

How does this marry up with pixels?

It's a fair question. If the star was close then it too would apparently move position. If the star was the same distance as the moon, then it would move with it and the relative distance between the two would not change. Since stars are sometimes occulted by the moon (i.e. the moon passes in front of a star) rather than the other way around, we at least know that the stars are further away than the moon.

Now consider two observers at the same latitude. We know that Polaris is less than a degree from due north and that doesn't vary no matter where you observe it from. Similarly for our two observers at the same latitude, Polaris is always the same altitude. What this means is that for these two observers, Polaris is completely fixed in place, no matter how far apart the observers are.

We can then determine the positions of all the other stars relative to Polaris and we find these relative positions are also fixed. The positions of all these fixed objects in the sky are given coordinates analogous to latitude and longitude. These are right ascension (RA) and declination (DEC). You can look these coordinates up in an atlas.

If you want to find some fixed object in the night sky, find an identifiable bright star nearby, point your telescope at it and then alter the telescope settings to match the known RA/DEC coordinates of your bright star. Then point the telescope to the RA/DEC coordinates of the object you are trying to find and if your telescope is properly set up, it should be right there in the viewfinder. This is how we find things in the night sky and demonstrates that the fixed objects are indeed fixed and don't change position no matter where the observer is.

If stars shifted their positions for different observers, then RA/DEC coordinates would vary for each observer and everyone would need their own personalised atlas.

A good way to imagine this is to pretend (note - this is pretend) that there is an invisible, absolutely huge sphere with the earth at the centre. All the stars are nailed to the inside of this sphere and it rotates around an axis once a day. The moon and planets move relative to this sphere, the stars do not.

Since we know the stars' positions are fixed for all observers, the stars provide a fixed background and therefore it has to be the moon whose apparent position has changed and not the star.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 04:42:34 AM by robinofloxley »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1135 on: October 29, 2020, 04:41:37 AM »
Quote
What would happen if the point of light ( your star) in your picture, near your moon is very close to your moon and looking like it does to you, rather than what you're told in terms of light years away?

Based on what we know about how the size of an object varies (gets smaller) with increasing distance from the observer, Scepti how would you evidence that a star is not 'as we are told' lightyears away but actually quite close by?  A point source of light could be very small and near.  Equally it could be massive and very distant. So distant that we cannot see any physical shape. After all as long as its path is not obstructed, light can travel an infinite distance. How can you tell which is right?  Just by using your eyes of course.

What Robin says about RA and Dec is completely correct.  I could describe the altitude and azimuth of a nova that has just been discovered as seen from my location but that would be time and location specific. The altitude and azimuth will continuously change as it moves across the sky. However by referencing the RA and Dec of the nova, any other astronomer who can see that part of the sky would know immediately where to aim their telescope. The RA and Dec of the nova will not change over time.  I can image a region of sky using my CCD camera and then overlay the RA and Dec lines on the image (Using a combo of plate solving and PixInsight).  I can also label the known stars within the FOV so it is easy to locate the nova as the unlabelled star.  I can post an example image if anyone is interested.

What we need to confirm the distance of a star is two independent ways of measuring its distance. Two common ways are variations in its position relative to other stars (parallax) and variations in brightness. Cepheid variables for example. Once we have identified the distance of a particular cepheid we can use that as a control or calibration star and from that we can work out the distance to any other cepheid.

It is only relatively recently (mid-19th century) that we have been able to measure the very small stellar parallax angles involved and then by using the Earths orbit as a baseline we can work out the distance of the star using simple math.

In Robins experiment he had two observers located at the same latitude. Consider a situation where you had two observers at different latitudes but on the same longitude line.  One is at 30N while the other is at 30S.  Both would see the Moon high up in the sky.  The one at 30N would see the Moon slightly to the south of overhead while the one at 30S would see the Moon slightly to the north of overhead.  Both are in direct communication and both are observing the Moon.  They see the same star close to the Moon but both measure a different separation between the edge of the Moon and the star.

By using reticle eyepieces both are able to measure the difference in the angular separation and hence they are also able to measure the distance of the Moon.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 07:44:28 AM by Solarwind »

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1136 on: October 29, 2020, 01:06:09 PM »


The problem here is that you've sketched an experiment, but you've left out all the detail. The sort of detail you always demand from the rest of us when we're trying to explain something to you.

Clearly I can't just pick up a kitchen roll tube and some cotton and prove anything to anyone. Nobody can repeat your experiment based on the limited information you've given. Fill in the details and we can ask you questions about your experiment for a change.

How are you keeping your tube still? Is it resting on something? If so, what?

How are you making sure the tube is level? Are you using a spirit level for instance? Are you fixing the tube to the level?

How do the cross hairs help? I mean you can move your eye up and down and the cross hairs will point at different things won't they?

Does it matter how high up you are? If so, why?

Fill in all the blanks and we can have a discussion.
Why you need to ask me this is absolutely beyond me...it really is.
Have you ever used a spirit level to level anything up?

Are you telling me you can't understand what I've just said?
You can set your tube up on anything and level it.
Stick it on a tripod with glue...tape or a clamp, or whatever.
No tripod?....Stick it on a window sill if you ace the sea.
If in your car at the seaside then jam it in your car window, lightly  and level it. It's really not difficult.

I could mention many many other ways but you surely must get it.

If you're playing games then no problem...we can just carry on.

A few problems here. For one, you've already publicly stated that no matter what the experiment shows, especially if you are wrong, is that:

As for me, I will never accept anything you try to tell me about the horizon, unless you actually tell me what I already know to be true.

So no matter what the outcome, if it doesn't match what you think is right, you would never accept it anyway. Hardly scientific. But you must get that asking someone to do the experiment is pretty much futile. Right? You don't offer a lot of motivation to go and do it if you won't accept the outcome, no matter what, if it doesn't conform to your belief. You get that, right?

For two, the reason why we're asking for details goes back to the hubris you have about explaining things and how you are perpetually mystified why no one gets it because you believe you explain things amazingly well. You don't. Perfect case in point here.

So what is the experiment? Take a straight tube of some sort, maybe a foot long, an inch in diameter or more, mount and level it onto something horizontally and look through it out over a horizon? And the horizon line should line up straight across the mid-point of the far end of the tube regardless of height of the set-up? Is that it?

If so, and I do it at altitude and it shows that the horizon line is below the midpoint of the end of the tube, would you except that to be true even though you've already said that no matter what you wouldn't?
Go and do it for yourself. Not for me. Not for your friends. Not for your family. For you.

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you in this instance that you cannot prove to yourself.
That's the crux..
You can sit and ague with me all day long and deny anything you feel the need to. It's your choice......but.....if you are interested in questioning the indoctrinated nonsense we were all brought up with, you'll check it all out for yourself.
If you are happy with the indoctrinated nonsense we were bullied into, then disregard anything that goes against it and just carry on as you are. I'm fine with it.

You didn't really address anything which is not surprising. Do you really mean this when you say, "So no matter what the outcome, if it doesn't match what you think is right, you would never accept it anyway."?

Instead of looking down a tube at height, here's to looking down a box at height - High above Santa Barbara, CA. Same outcome, horizon does not rise to eye level. Sorry, that's just the cold hard truth. Even though we know you've already stated you would not accept the truth if it doesn't conform to your beliefs.



This is actually more exacting than your experiment because of the real time leveling shown on the tubes of liquid fore and aft of the box and perspective lines. Pretty much combines all experimental elements into one result.

Too bad you have no interest in the truth.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1137 on: October 29, 2020, 09:54:31 PM »
Quote
By rotating like a cyclone...like a big electric motor projecting it's light/heat source around the dome which creates a sort of breathing dome. Basically expanding and compressing as it moves around it due to agitation or lack of and it moves over and away.
This also creates the tides.
The seasons are created by angled reflection as the energy moves up and down a sort of internal spiral.

It all seems so simple and obvious when you put it like that doesn't it.  Why didn't any of us realise this before?  Just two words come to mind after reading all that.  One is utter and I'll leave the other to your imagination.
Brilliant.
Birdbrained?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1138 on: October 29, 2020, 10:01:05 PM »
Sceptimatic, I'd like you to explain to me in dumbed down fashion, your method proving the earth is flat. Keep it really simple for me, like I know nothing. Imagine I'm a total idiot (which shouldn't be a problem for you)

Imagine you are standing beside me, at whatever destination you like, and I'll give you whatever tools you like. Now, you have to show me, step by step, how what you do, proves earth is flat. You can use the most recent technology available, or you can use the most basic tools, or no tools. Your choice.   :D

Give me what I need to change my global mind.
We will both sit  next to a bath full of water. We will put a floating board on that water along with a spirit level.
You can observe the level bubble being in the centre.

Also you can get yourself a football, place it in the bath water and pour some water on it and see if that water does not run off it into the bath.
What do you think?
Easy enough, even for you.

It is easy. But let's make it easier. How about we place the bathtub of water in an industrial freezer and freeze it. Then we won't have to worry about the floating board. We can just place the spirit level on straight on top. It will prove the water in the bathtub is level. I only wish you were on the level, Sceptimatic.

When you say football, I assume you mean "soccer ball", which is a spherical ball shape? Yes. Pour some water on the soccer ball or urinate on it, and watch the water go into the bathtub, proving the law of gravity continues to work just fine.

Nothing to prove the earth is flat from your experiments, though, scepti! I hope that isn't the best you can do?

Just for a bit of fun, we'll take the soccer ball and move the top edge in close to one of our eyes at eye level until it can't go any closer, and watch the curved edge flatten out. Another little experiment for you to remember the next time you look at the horizon, ey, Sceptimatic? Lol!  >:D
Horizon is a good starting point. HORIZON.
Thanks.

Only too happy to oblige, sceptimatic. Show me how the horizon proves earth is flat, after I've just demonstrated how easily it can also be proof it is a small segment of a giant sphere.

Take your time. No need to rush..... O0

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1139 on: October 30, 2020, 12:56:01 AM »
Go and do it for yourself.
Plenty of us have, or have done something similar, and it proves you are wrong.

It certainly does not prove me wrong. I've done it and it shows exactly what I expected it to show. A level horizon to the eye at any height. It cannot do anything else and this is the ultimate point.
If you do not want to admit to that then feel free. It has no bearing on what I know and you're only setting yourself back.