taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people

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Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2023, 06:52:09 AM »
Back to the alchemy/economy anime. I got to see how a decent politician behaves. When his people are suffering, he cuts taxes and donates money out of his own pocket. He winds up broke, and asking one of the main character to do an arranged marriage as his daughter.

You think taxes are your friend, but this is how a decent politician behaves. They don't do "charity" only to raise taxes and get it back. They help out of pocket, and never call it a loan.

 Taxes steal from people. So do thugs in government who write taxes they don't have to pay as politicians.
https://www.propublica.org/article/how-these-ultrawealthy-politicians-avoided-paying-taxes
Yet again, the government is looking at a shutdown because they couldn't agree on a budget. This used to happen only occasionally. But since 2011, I think it's happened about four times. My dad proposed the first cuts they could do were starting at Congress and the president. Just like highway robbers, they never have to suffer being robbed from. They only know the feeling of getting money from taxes, never the suffering of taxpayers.

So we should have the government have no income?

Also, while killing the paychecks of congress SOUNDS good... Its complicated.  If their pay has already been budgeted for 4 years, then you can't just stop it.  If you do, they are not legally obligated to work.
Then you gotta pay backpay when they return.  And some won't even notice its gone.  Then you gotta kill the pay for everyone inder them, like assistants, copy staff, technicians, writers, lawyers, the guy who buys coffee, etc...

Has it ever occurred to you that politician have too much staff? The Deep State is this whole tangled bureaucracy of side organizations and peons that would be better off working real jobs. Or better yet, a Congress politician makes about $175,000 a year each. You know, if they're doing paychecks, seems they could cut out the middle man and pay that staff directly, and not feed Congress's fat wallet.



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2023, 11:05:24 PM »
ah brilliant brilliant...so many things




"pastors are expected to pay..."
cool
like a tax
hey guess what - congress reps also have to pay taxes on their salaries.



"political vs church status"
hurray
glad we agree its time to strip all those mega churches of their tax excempt status when they use their platforms for politcal purposes.




"nber rant about leftists and tax the rich"
if a millionaire/ billionaire makes their money by sucking water out of a public lake, running it through its processor and spits out black water onto a public park, then the peolpe of the land have to pay to clean it up, or they have to pay extra to bring in more water - well then, TAX THAT MOTHERFUCKER.
this NBER is a dishonest POS.
find better sources for your news.



"90%"
look up tax brackets.
fucksakes.




"politicians have too much staff"?
one person can't do it alone.
does your dad personally look after each individual in the church?
or are there levels of "staff" that clean, organize parties, run prayer meetings, monitor emails, do the accounting, etc etc etc?
a lot of times these monkeys are running from meeting to meeting so they have peons to read mail and such to give them summaries.
lawyers have armies of paralegals and clerks to look up info for them.
doctors have teams of nurses and pharmcists.




"deep state"
yes
glad we agree
no taxation without representation!
time to get rid of the deep state and get rid of Citizens united vs FEC!
say NO! to dark money!

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2023, 04:26:35 PM »
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Tarrifs pulled in most of the income.  Now, do you want to go back to that, but with increased tarrifs to offset the income tax loss?

Do you even know what tariffs are? They are duties on foreign goods and services. You only pay them when you simply must get some imported good. Tariffs encourage us to make our own goods and stop depending on foreign trade. So that PlayStation (Latest Number) or Steam Deck or whatever manga or anime you want is suddenly more expensive now. But because you can work and save up for it, it truly wouldn't  matter if that was an 100% tariff tax.
Soo... this is a very "born with a silver spoon in the mouth" way of thinking.  A great deal of Americans are working and living paycheck to paycheck.  Savings are an afterthought.  Making goods more expensive is just not gonna help.


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Secondly, you've just unwittingly told a lie. Taxes are not essential to fund the US government. I'll repeat that. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/bonds/paul-krugman-economy-us-debt-31-trillion-ceiling-crisis-2023-5?op=1
 This is because the government does not need to pay off its debt.
The world bank would disagree.  And yes, taxes are. Or some kind of income.  Soliders need supplies, weapons, food, and a paycheck.  So the military alone, which is a big part of why governments exist, needs funding somehow.


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More importantly, WE DON'T HAVE TO pay off the government's debt. The government have managed to con us into thinking that their debt is ours, and that we are somehow paying down this debt by paying our taxes. When you pay your taxes, that money really makes its way to the Federal Reserve, not to the US government's debt. You are, quite literally, paying it to cash. But to put this more directly, if a kid down the street buys a PlayStation (Number), six cars, and five more consoles, and manages to get in huge debt, in what way is it  our debt? The US government is that kid who can't stop spending on rubbish.
Except we put that kid in power.  We give them our credit card.  We vote and allow him to choose what to spend money on.  WE are responsible for putting these people in power.


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You can only pay off your own debts! One of these is if you owe back taxes. Another is if you owe debts to the bank. But if  the government spends a fortune, your taxes don't go up. This myth of tax burden or "loss" is just that, a myth. Taxes go up only if politicians scheme (they spend money on programs, then expect to be rewarded with more money!) Certain states, like Texas and Florida, don't have income taxes. Leftists want to change that, even though they personally benefit from claiming those states are their residence.
https://www.nber.org/digest/aug97/17-percent-sales-tax-could-replace-all-income-and-estate-taxes
Just 17% sales tax makes all income and estate taxes unnecessary. We could do that with tariffs instead.

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I noticed a lot of leftist are always citing the wage gap for why rich people should pay their "fair share". As if someone who has and makes a lot of money is more than reason enough for why they should pay more in taxes.

And when I ask them what this "fair share" is and whats so fair about it they can never seem to say what % amount is fair and or explain anything else. Sometimes they will state "Well before Reagan ruined everything corporations were forced to pay 90% tax rates!!".

A 90% tax rate sounds like straight up thievery and yet most leftist would move it if taxes were 90% again. Also leftist failed to understand that corporations didn't really pay this percentage. Before the end of the fiscal tax year companies would buy assets to minimize profits in order to pay lower taxes. Leftist will make it seem that these loop holes are highly illegal and immoral. When in reality it makes sense for a company or any person to find ways to save money including on taxes. And they are also legal.

Another thing that leftist failed to understand is that when Reagan Lowered taxes he was able to raise government revenue. This is because companies were more willing to pay to a 30% tax rate which is a lot more reasonable. (although still too high in my opinion).

Not to mention if you tax a company more they will just pass these cost down to the customers and the employees they hire. So raising taxes isn't exactly going to help anyone or even help the economy except for government bureaucrats.

The reason you are in favor of high taxes is because you are in envy of corporations that "charge too much". Guess what? The higher their taxes, the more they charge you on goods. If you got rid of their taxes, suddenly, they'd be able to deflate their prices. Those eggs that cost $8 for not even good quality is now $1.40, and you pay the 17% tax on that much more reasonable egg carton. or you can keep looking for your "fair share" while politicians use your own vices to punish you and everyone else.

Do the math. If you pay 90% of $100,000 yearly salary, you are down to $10,000 a year. Is a small CEO going to pay this? That's outrageous, that puts the CEO at the level of a worker at retail. They either quit the job and try to make just enough money at some other job not to pay that, they find a loophole, or they pay it, and then raise prices on all goods. This drives their business out of business, unless you the customer are willing to pay several times more. In the end, you only have sucky stores because all the good ones are closed or too expensive. Personally, I would quit my job if I had that kinda tax. Oh wait, I did quit! After COVID bureaucracy made my job too annoying.

Ok, there's alot to unpack here.

So first off, the idea of sales tax for funding the government SOUNDS good on paper, until you realize that poor and rich people exist.
Now, I'd personally pick the 30% sales tax because food and medical care should NOT be taxed.
For me, that would basically end up being the same as what I pay now.  So it wouldn't change anything.  I'd still have the same buying power as I did before.  Maybe a small amount more but probably not.

For the poor, life would be harder.  Suddenly everything except food and medical care (which they don't usually get anyway) would be 30% more expensive.  That could easily mean life or death for some families.

The rich would have the opposite effect.  Without income tax, they'd hord money as they'd have no tax writeoffs and no reason to invest.  Giving money to charity would be a waste.  They'd be more frugal with their spending.  And even if they didn't, they wouldn't spend even half of their yearly income.  The amount of tax they'd pay would be fairly low.  OR they just buy overseas and have it shipped if its cheaper.  Why not?  So they'd have all this money that would be stagnant.  And stagnant money is what kills economies.

You also need to adjust the percentage for the price increase.  Goods sold would go down when prices go up due to a sales tax.


Next, your understanding of tax percentages is ... wrong.  America has a progressive tax system.  And 100,000/year salary would never hit that 90% tax level.  (that's insane)
Lets put it at a more reasonable number.
$100,000,000/year.

In a progressive system(marginal tax rate), you have a percentage for each amount you get.  SO...
the first $10,000 are not taxed.
The $10,001 - $20,000 is taxed at 10%
$20,001 - $50,000 is taxed at 20%
$50,001 - $100,000 is taxed at 30%
$100,001 - $500,000 is taxed at 50%
$500,001 - $100,000,000 is taxed at 90%

So lets do this math.
$1,000
$6,000
$15,000
$250,000
$450,000
------------
$722,000

So at 100million dollars a year income, with a maximum of 90% tax rate, you're total tax bill would be less than $1 million.  Or about 7% of your income.



Now, your $100,000/year person... lets see how much they pay shall we?

https://smartasset.com/taxes/current-federal-income-tax-brackets

$0 – $11,000 - 10%
$11,001 – $44,725 - 12%
$44,726 – $95,375 - 22%
$95,376 – $182,100 - 24%
------
1,100
4,046.88
11,142.78
1,109.76
---------
$17,399.42

So their total tax is about 17% of their income.  Which... huh... is exactly what you thought was a good tax number.  Weird, right?

Its a good idea and it CAN work but you need to help the poor, keep the rich from sitting on money, and have other incomes like Florida (tourism sales tax) and Texas (oil and agriculture).

You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2023, 05:21:55 PM »
I think you screwed up your 450,000

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2023, 03:24:26 AM »
I think you screwed up your 450,000

How so?  What did I miss/make a mistake on?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2023, 04:24:13 AM »
100,000,000 - 500,000 = 99,500,000


99,500,000 x 90% = 89,550,000

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2023, 04:26:45 AM »
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Tarrifs pulled in most of the income.  Now, do you want to go back to that, but with increased tarrifs to offset the income tax loss?

Do you even know what tariffs are? They are duties on foreign goods and services. You only pay them when you simply must get some imported good. Tariffs encourage us to make our own goods and stop depending on foreign trade. So that PlayStation (Latest Number) or Steam Deck or whatever manga or anime you want is suddenly more expensive now. But because you can work and save up for it, it truly wouldn't  matter if that was an 100% tariff tax.
Soo... this is a very "born with a silver spoon in the mouth" way of thinking.  A great deal of Americans are working and living paycheck to paycheck.  Savings are an afterthought.  Making goods more expensive is just not gonna help.
You think like my dad. He's wrong too (sorry, Dad). I have actually BEEN poor, and probably will be again, when my parents are gone. And do you know WHY Americans live paycheck to paycheck? It's because taxes raise prices on all goods. When businesses are heavily taxed, they inflate their prices to get more buying power. I, a business owner, never inflated price, though I was sorely tempted to after COVID. Why? Because if I went to places, and they rejected me because I was masked or not vaccined or didn't have enough this or that precaution, then I'd wasted a trip. The same is true of taxes. Two things cause inflation: (1) scarcity of goods as we saw in Zimbabwe after they screwed with farming, (2) and cost of business. The more you screw with people's livelihood, the higher they charge. So in actuality, you have a sales tax of sorts when you raise income taxes. It's just frontended. If you raise sales tax, but lower the income tax, a business can pass its savings on to you. Let's do the math. A business owner makes $100,000 and needs to set aside $30,000 of it, they have a net yearly profit of $70,000. However, business expenses like you know paying employees bring this down to lower. If they want to actually make that $100,000 they might raise prices of say cheap bread from $1 to $2, and maybe a buck or so more for everything else. This is a quick and dirty way to double their income. They pay everyone like they did before, but now they get to be hundred-thousandaires. The customer doesn't notice the increase of goods that much, but picture this. The taxpayer wants to stick it to those greedy capitalists (even though it's not like they get their money). Let's set up a hyperbole tax bracket. Suppose people making "$100,000 or more" pay 90% exactly as this "fair share" was mentioned in reddit, while those making greater than $5,000 (who pay nothing here, since $500 is a dear chunk of change for such people) but less than $25,000 pay 10%. Okay, that guy back when he was making $100,000 would have made $10k come tax time, while the typical $20k employee makes $18,000 after taxes. When grunt workers and casual ppl make more than someone who works 100 hours or so, someone hasn't worked out the system. Obviously, if he wants people to help run his shop, and in order to pay them the fair wages he intended, bread has to go up to maybe even $7.00. So now, let's compare rapacious income taxes with a low 0.5% sales to a zero percent income and 17% sales. High Income, Low Sales: $7.03 for Wonder Bread. No Income, 17% Sales: $1.17 for Wonder Bread. Still think how income taxes save the customer? And it's not just bread! Wanna stay in a hotel? More expensive! Income tax creates hand to mouth living. This is also why liberals who tried to throw money at poverty or homelessness, starting in the 1970s? It's gone up since then. The more "charity" government does, the more they charge income taxes. The more income taxes they charge, and the higher they raise minimum wage (if businesses want to charge competitive salaries, that ought to be on them), the higher the cost of business and the less people can be employed. If businesses don't have to pay the tax (such as sales tax), they pass their savings on. There's a saying, if you want to discourage something, tax it. So, why do you some people spend before it can be put in the bank? Because bank records show up, while impulse purchases made in cash kinda don't. Basically they quoting Gol D Roger.
Quote
My fortune is yours for the taking, but you'll have to find it first!
Both spending outside one's means, and overpricing goods is contributed to by raised income taxes.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 04:28:26 AM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2023, 04:27:40 AM »
Also

Ita not theft.


The billionaire thefted it himself away from society by under paying his employees, skirting environmental obligations, or obtaining a monopoly.



Its"not his fault" according to bulnba.
Ita the govt.
I agree!
The feckless govt who was bribed by the billionaire is the problem.


Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2023, 04:34:54 AM »
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The billionaire thefted it himself away from society by under paying his employees, skirting environmental obligations, or obtaining a monopoly.
Straight from Marx's (I think it was cotton) factory analogy. But Marx actually refused to work, and his friend basically supported him. Where did his friend's money come from? Working at the factory.



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2023, 04:47:24 AM »
Funding the govt through sales tax is so stupid.

You yourself already agree profits are moved out of state to the parent companies.
So the local economy is already being drained slowly unless they importing new money some how.



2nd
The idea was present, first i learned, from sen rick scott!
An evil pos who apready scammed peiple out of their much needed health.
People died because of his greed.
So when this pos says we should switch the system - belive him?



As of late 2022, according to Snopes, 735 billionaires collectively possessed more wealth than the bottom half of U.S. households ($4.5 trillion and $4.1 trillion respectively). The top 1% held a total of $43.45 trillion.[41]

735 rich folk vs 150M janitors.

At 1:2,000,000 ratio, a billionaire would have to buy 1,000,000$ sandwiches, wipe his ass with 1,000$silk toilet paper, and buy new 200$shoes ever hour.
A person can only consume so much and purchase so much.


How much sales tax do you think would balance out the govt cost-to-function considering the biological daily needs?


Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2023, 04:54:24 AM »
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The billionaire thefted it himself away from society by under paying his employees, skirting environmental obligations, or obtaining a monopoly.
Straight from Marx's (I think it was cotton) factory analogy. But Marx actually refused to work, and his friend basically supported him. Where did his friend's money come from? Working at the factory.


Not quite.
The rational is the billionaire is accessing the labor market, at a rate THEY set by bribing govt.
That rate just happens to be unsustainable because it is below the cost of living
Resting in both parents working 2jobs amd still not being able to pay rent or buy food.
Nor paying proper healthcare to keep said labor alive.
Nor payinh proper edcation to not have to import next gen workers.


They accessing the local infrastructuret but not paying a cent towards maintaing it (unlike disney).
They skirting environmental law by bribing govt.
The cost of which gets dumped back onto the local community.



This isnt marxist.
This is resource managment.



Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2023, 05:13:07 AM »
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"pastors are expected to pay..."
cool
like a tax
hey guess what - congress reps also have to pay taxes on their salaries.

I literally showed a link earlier where it talks about how Congress members often weasel out of taxes. Also, these tithes are more like dues. You don't pay as a priest, the company itself (the church) kinda knows, since plate collection is public.

Quote
if a millionaire/ billionaire makes their money by sucking water out of a public lake, running it through its processor and spits out black water onto a public park, then the peolpe of the land have to pay to clean it up, or they have to pay extra to bring in more water - well then, TAX THAT MOTHERFUCKER.

This was already discussed in a 2019 movie Dark Waters. The water was literally killing cattle, and causing birth deformities. Guess what? Lawyers are a hell of a lot more effective. But bureaucrats can also do the job and you don't even have to make taxes to pay their wages. A single fine on a business can do that. And they can fine for every infraction, and every time they visit. And btw, these fines are for every single day you are not in compliance.

No wonder Willy Wonka was handing over ownership to a kid.

Quote
"90%"
look up tax brackets.
fucksakes.

Yeah, I know about tax brackets. I also know they are nonsense. A person like me, who makes $200 to $400 a year (from gifts), might pay 10% as a flat tax or like $40. Whereas my older brother might pay $10,000 in taxes. Isn't that enough for you? No, his "fair share" is really to try to reduce his income down to your level. But that's hardly fair if he works more hours. Consider a lawyer. Many of them have very long shifts. They work as much as 60 hours overtime. But if we were to look at the $100k yearly wages, it break down to about $20/hr on average. Ditto with doctors. If you really wanted fair income, you would penalize get-rich-quick money by doing 10% flat hourly tax with no overcome taxes. This means a lawyer who works 100 hours (or for that matter, a factory worker with alot of overtime) only is charged for 10% of 40 hours of work. Whereas a politician (most of us would be appalled by how rarely politicians actually do work) is basically fucked up the ass for their low average yearly work.

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"politicians have too much staff"?
one person can't do it alone.
does your dad personally look after each individual in the church?
or are there levels of "staff" that clean, organize parties, run prayer meetings, monitor emails, do the accounting, etc etc etc?

You are literally this gal.



If the church can be compared to a taco truck, the church staff own the taco truck. Very rarely does the priest own the church. Rather, they are paid by the ECW (who does pro-wrestling too) and other groups. These groups pay the operating expenses of the church, and my dad is their employee. They aren't his staff. He works for them. He pays taxes oddly as a self-employed businessman yet is also a member of a non-profit charity. This is why he is tax free, because a priest, he is considered a subcontracted worker for a charity that doesn't name him as a primary beneficiary. Charities that don't have a person primarily benefiting (that is, he only gets paid for his work on Sundays, weddings, funerals, or exorcisms, while the church's money primarily goes to operating expenses, and offering to the poor in various ways) are by definition tax free so long as they aren't political organisations.

Quote
"deep state"
yes
glad we agree
no taxation without representation!
time to get rid of the deep state and get rid of Citizens united vs FEC!
say NO! to dark money!
I don't care whether money is dark or not. If you let billionaires who made money the sketchiest way possible give their money to charities who in turn gave to food companies , who in turn circulated that money, that billionaire does a lot of good with that money every time he spends it. Meanwhile, every charity the government does, they use as an excuse to raise taxes. If the government spent $5 billion on taxes, divide that by 300 million people, or not much actual money per person. And then they they tax to get it back. The most corrupt businessmen don't Indian-give like that.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 05:38:25 AM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2023, 06:00:12 AM »
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You yourself already agree profits are moved out of state to the parent companies.
So the local economy is already being drained slowly unless they importing new money some how.

Yes this is correct. However, money is raided much more quickly by income tax. Everyone who makes income, even if they spend it immediately, is liable to taxes if it shows up on records. This means if you, a hundred-thousandaire, pay ten people $10,000 then each of them with only 10% tax must pay $1000 each, netting itself $10,000 of your business's money as though it were an 11th person. But did the government work 9 to 5 that entire year? Oh wait, no, even more egregious than that businessman, the government suddenly showed up one day and asked for what all of the workers got with their blood, sweat, and toil. By any standard both the owner and the employees get more work out of that money (you get a job, Uncle Sam!). But it gets worse. The government also acts as a twelfth and thirteenth person. Let me explain. The owner must pay a 10% tax on the money as they made it meaning 10% of $100,000 is an extra $10,000 (they now have $20,000). Okay, so where is the thirteenth man come from? Well, as I discovered running my own business, I paid taxes as an employee and an employer, even though I had no employees, because I was listed as self-employed. This is without tax brackets, just 10% taxes. Claiming to take 10%, they actually schemed away 30%. This is $20,000 extra that the owner must come up with after paying everyone as they no longer have that money. But wait, that extra is taxed too!

This is why taxes don't need to be more than 30%. The end result is closer to 90%. Pretty quickly, they need to trade with other towns. When you taxed a town 90% and it has to raise prices to make ends meet, pretty soon, you have everyone in town struggling.

Sales taxes would not reach that point (not for awhile), because lower prices mean lower taxes. Sales raxes not only reduce costs, but they make the government actually work to trace money.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 06:06:09 AM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2023, 01:32:26 PM »
Quote
Tarrifs pulled in most of the income.  Now, do you want to go back to that, but with increased tarrifs to offset the income tax loss?

Do you even know what tariffs are? They are duties on foreign goods and services. You only pay them when you simply must get some imported good. Tariffs encourage us to make our own goods and stop depending on foreign trade. So that PlayStation (Latest Number) or Steam Deck or whatever manga or anime you want is suddenly more expensive now. But because you can work and save up for it, it truly wouldn't  matter if that was an 100% tariff tax.
Soo... this is a very "born with a silver spoon in the mouth" way of thinking.  A great deal of Americans are working and living paycheck to paycheck.  Savings are an afterthought.  Making goods more expensive is just not gonna help.
You think like my dad. He's wrong too (sorry, Dad). I have actually BEEN poor, and probably will be again, when my parents are gone. And do you know WHY Americans live paycheck to paycheck? It's because taxes raise prices on all goods. When businesses are heavily taxed, they inflate their prices to get more buying power. I, a business owner, never inflated price, though I was sorely tempted to after COVID. Why? Because if I went to places, and they rejected me because I was masked or not vaccined or didn't have enough this or that precaution, then I'd wasted a trip. The same is true of taxes. Two things cause inflation: (1) scarcity of goods as we saw in Zimbabwe after they screwed with farming, (2) and cost of business. The more you screw with people's livelihood, the higher they charge. So in actuality, you have a sales tax of sorts when you raise income taxes. It's just frontended. If you raise sales tax, but lower the income tax, a business can pass its savings on to you. Let's do the math. A business owner makes $100,000 and needs to set aside $30,000 of it, they have a net yearly profit of $70,000. However, business expenses like you know paying employees bring this down to lower. If they want to actually make that $100,000 they might raise prices of say cheap bread from $1 to $2, and maybe a buck or so more for everything else. This is a quick and dirty way to double their income. They pay everyone like they did before, but now they get to be hundred-thousandaires. The customer doesn't notice the increase of goods that much, but picture this. The taxpayer wants to stick it to those greedy capitalists (even though it's not like they get their money). Let's set up a hyperbole tax bracket. Suppose people making "$100,000 or more" pay 90% exactly as this "fair share" was mentioned in reddit, while those making greater than $5,000 (who pay nothing here, since $500 is a dear chunk of change for such people) but less than $25,000 pay 10%. Okay, that guy back when he was making $100,000 would have made $10k come tax time, while the typical $20k employee makes $18,000 after taxes. When grunt workers and casual ppl make more than someone who works 100 hours or so, someone hasn't worked out the system. Obviously, if he wants people to help run his shop, and in order to pay them the fair wages he intended, bread has to go up to maybe even $7.00. So now, let's compare rapacious income taxes with a low 0.5% sales to a zero percent income and 17% sales. High Income, Low Sales: $7.03 for Wonder Bread. No Income, 17% Sales: $1.17 for Wonder Bread. Still think how income taxes save the customer? And it's not just bread! Wanna stay in a hotel? More expensive! Income tax creates hand to mouth living. This is also why liberals who tried to throw money at poverty or homelessness, starting in the 1970s? It's gone up since then. The more "charity" government does, the more they charge income taxes. The more income taxes they charge, and the higher they raise minimum wage (if businesses want to charge competitive salaries, that ought to be on them), the higher the cost of business and the less people can be employed. If businesses don't have to pay the tax (such as sales tax), they pass their savings on. There's a saying, if you want to discourage something, tax it. So, why do you some people spend before it can be put in the bank? Because bank records show up, while impulse purchases made in cash kinda don't. Basically they quoting Gol D Roger.
Quote
My fortune is yours for the taking, but you'll have to find it first!
Both spending outside one's means, and overpricing goods is contributed to by raised income taxes.

None of this makes any sense.
You arbitrarily claim 90% taxes which is just stupid to say "You pay a flat tax of 90%".  No one is proposing that.  No one intelligent anyway.
Secondly, you make some arbitrary number of  $7 bread without any other numbers to back it up as to why its $7.  You also seem to find the problem with a high flat tax, without realizing that this problem is precisely why it isn't used.


So let me make some simple math for you.

I make $10,000/year.
My taxes are $1,000/year.
With tax breaks and such, I get almost if not all of it back in April.
So my effecitve tax percentage is 0%.  Or 10% if you wanna play it that way.

Now the US government comes in and say "Good news!  You get to keep all $10,000!  Your income goes up 10%!  Bad news, your expenses go up 17%!" because sales tax means everythign you buy (food, rent, clothing, drugs, etc... are now 17% higher in cost). 
This does not work out for you.

You also seem to think that bread will decrease because "savings". 
1. Why would any business go "I can cut my prices and profit by 700% so I will" ? They wouldn't.  Because remember, even IF they stopped having their business income taxed, why would they decide to pass on that massive savings to you?  Why not keep the same price and get more profit?

2. The smaller you price your goods, the less money you get unless you're able to increase your sales.

3. Bread is gonna become more expensive to buy(before the sales tax of the seller).  See, the break MAKER needs to pay 17% sales tax on all the ingredients its buys to make the bread.  Soemthing they didn't have to before.  And guess what?  The cost of materials or ingredients is the biggest cost they have.  Even bigger than employee wages.  While it won't make their total expnense increase my 17%, it would be a sizable increase in cost.  And they will pass that cost onto the reseller, who will pass that onto the customer who is already paying an extra 17%.

4. Without income tax, a business can pay employees LESS and say "You still get the same amount of money.  What's the problem?"
ex:
I pay you $50,000.  You're taxed so your takehome pay is closer to $30,000/year.  Income tax goes away so I drop your pay to $30,000/year.  I save $20,000 and you have the same takehome pay.  Win for me, and well its the same money for you so whats the problem?  And if you don't think this is realisitc, remember that waitstaff in America are paid with the assumption that tips will make up the difference to make their actual salary.  So its not unreasoable to assume that a lack of income tax would be factored into the salaries offered to employees.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2023, 10:51:58 PM »
Quote
None of this makes any sense.
You arbitrarily claim 90% taxes which is just stupid to say "You pay a flat tax of 90%".  No one is proposing that.

Let's explain. Slowly.

As a (mostly former) business owner, I figured out rather quickly that I couldn't afford to employ people to help me.  But supposing I had made it. Let us suppose I wanted to employ assistants, and not just one, ten of them.  I would quickly realize that I had bit off more than I could chew, paying all of them 10% of my salary (shit, if I am a business owner, shouldn't I pay my workers fairly?) as I now have no money. For the sake of argument, I am assuming that whatever percent in taxes I pay, I also pay that percent to employees.

Case 1: I am stupid, as it is my first year in business, employing people. In this example, taxes are a flat 10%. But I give this 10% to each employee (I don't want to be a cheapskate boss), resulting in 100% expenses. As a business owner, I would be expected to owe 10% flat tax.
But, speaking from experience as a business designated as self-employed vs LLC or some other designation, come tax time, I discovered I had to pay (in my case 6%) tax twice. First because am an employer, and second because I am an employee.
So if things stood as they do now, when all is said and done, I owe 120% between taxes and paychecks.  I'd be ruined on the first year. Charitable yes, but total dumbass move. However, I have records of payments to the employees. They look at this, laugh, and tell me that I don't owe money. It's a rather sizable loss, and they write it off (maybe). My business barely survives another year.
Case 2: Election year comes, the flat tax is abolished because Democrats want a progressive tax. I now have more experience, and when paychecks come out, I pay 30% in paychecks, divided between just three employees. I also pay 30% in tax as an employer (this is a little different from the brackets here).
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets
But like I said, business owners get fucked up the ass by the government. There's a third 30%.
https://smartasset.com/taxes/self-employment-tax
Quote
In 1935, the federal government passed the Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA), which established taxes to help fund Social Security and Medicare. The FICA tax is 15.3%, paid by employers and employees, who split the burden by each paying half. Employers pay 7.65% and their employees pay 7.65%.

To ensure that self-employed individuals still contribute toward Social Security and Medicare, the federal government passed the Self-Employed Contributions Act (SECA) in 1954. SECA established that self-employed individuals would be responsible to pay the whole 15.3% FICA.
When you are self-employed, the tax "burden" (which is a made up load of crap to get you to pay someone else's debt) gets paid twice. In the 30% bracket? You pay 60%.

60% + 30% = 90%

That's what I would get helping three people out financially as a person making hundreds of thousands. Or, as many business owners do, I could sorta help out 30 people.

As you've no doubt guessed, real business owners are pissed about this SECA rule, as the real maximum tax bracket for business owners is not 37% but 72% after SECA. And they cannot pay employees like they want, even if they are feeling generous, as Uncle Sam just took a nasty bite out of their expense account.

Oh and btw, I have not accounted for any business expenses. Some of these are recouped by taxes, while others are not. Nor have I mentioned Social Security and Medicare (if I remember, that might have been doubled too!)

You, who have probably studied college economics but probably never worked for yourself, have been taught some crap about how businesses are hoarding money. Yet the truth is, if there are hoarders to be had, it's probably the guys who just took a huge chunk of the money of someone trying to make a living.

  • Abolish double-charging for business owners. They are either employers or employees, they shouldn't be both.
  • Set taxes at a flat 10%. Trust me, it adjusts to higher salaries, and reasonable amounts can sustainably be paid. Otherwise, it's like a bad loan you have to collect on. You cannot get blood from a turnip.
  • Change overtime laws. The "time and a half" rule not only erases any benefit if it pushes you into a higher bracket, but overtime is taxed as income. This creates a situation where there is potentially no benefit to overtime, if for instance you are a lawyer working 60 hours overtime (you get bumped from around $40k tax bracket to an around $100k bracket, plus 50% extra). Instead of all this crap, the government ought to be legally allowed to tax 40 hours. If you work longer hours, the idea of that money that is overtime being taxed is just awful. Anyone who works 60 extra hours probably has health problems. Shouldn't they get to keep more of their money? To say nothing of student loans needing to be paid off. Meanwhile, lazy assholes in Congress ought to get taxed (as their staff can easily be paid without them). Time and a half doesn't cut it. Just time, but that time is yours.
  • I'd prefer no income tax, and to switch to sales tax. But if nobody can see reason in this, I'd be okay with the above.


The purpose of government is public good. When the government instead engages in public theft, and people make excuses for them, it's time to start asking the government why it isn't working for public good and the shills how they can defend this.

Income doesn't necessarily reflect the real story. There is a current suicide problem among medical personnel (particularly vets), as they are drowning in student loan debt. This is why I'm talking about abolishing overtime tax at the very least. You can be struggling even if you are rich, yet not fully understand why, and get taxed on top of that, as though you get to keep your earnings.
https://time.com/5485552/veterinarians-suicide/
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 11:10:18 PM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2023, 01:11:03 AM »
Agreed - you are stupid.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2023, 02:17:07 AM »
Haha while funny and i kmow someonelike this

No
Not me

Actually reverse uno
Because everything ive pointed out is your projectionist antiwoke anti lib nonsense as you hopskotch your way from one debunked argument to anotger debased argument.

You cant coherently defend any of your positions so you immediately jump to another in an endless attempt to find one where you "own the lib" or in her attempt to SJW white hero.


B:  Taxes is theft!
K:  actually taxes pay for socialized infrastructure
B:  socialims is marxism ans youre a commie marxist!
K:   actually im not,  the boss should be paid a lot, but if the boss wants access to a labor market he should pay for it at a sustainable rate.
B:  but its not sustainable because 90%tax is wrong!
K:  but its not, its part of a bracket...
B:  well the govt should work for free!
K:  thats absurd and basically communism as youre suggesting govt workers should rheb get a base living allowance.   Whos the commie now?


See?
Youre the crazy karen in this sitaution.





« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 02:37:16 AM by Themightykabool »

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2023, 06:11:16 AM »
Agreed - I am stupid.
I am so glad we agree on something. You know, most people don't have enough self-awareness to admit their own failings. But you, you handled it admirably.



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2023, 06:57:39 AM »
Like with the othe one, we're gonna change your quote.

B:  Taxes is theft!
K:  actually taxes pay for socialized infrastructure
B:  You're a commie marxist! And an idiot. Do you understand why socialized infrastructure is bad? Lemme give you a quick peek. You know how you said monopolies are bad and liberals broke up monopolies? That's not quite true. Socialized infrastructure is paying into a statewide monopoly so they can make your water or electricity. But bit by bit, they own more of this business and own more "public" property (public does not mean owned by state, it means owned by PEOPLE). You could camp on public property, then I think Obama banned it. These monopolies, if government decides they want to kill you, can easily try, by pouring high amounts of toxic chlorine and fluoride into the water, where they combine and weaken your bones. Or any number chemical into the water. Likewise, with electricity, a sufficiently evil government could blast you with frequencies that induce cardiac arrest on those on heart devices (EMP wavelengths of 5G is no fun). Socialist infrastructure is toxic to the American way of life, and we don't need them. We have our choice of broadband company, why can't we have our choice of power compamy or plumber?
K:   actually im not,  the boss should be paid a lot, but if the boss wants access to a labor market he should pay for it at a sustainable rate.
B:  But its not sustainable because 90% tax is wrong! Also haven't you figured out that even a 30% tax bracket is wrong?
K:  but its not, its part of a bracket...
B:  It's the theoretical bracket you have in your head as you are firmly thinking the rich ought to pay more. This 90% hasn't been tried, but you are convinced if the rich just pay more, the poor will be less poor. No, when income taxes take salary, everyone stays poor. Especially since most people don't have the restraint to wait a year so that income is gone significantly by the time taxes are there. 90% is also (potentially) what the rich, despite everything, wind up paying thanks to the double tax rule and the own good of their heart to their employees (up to 72% in taxes, and up to 30% in paychecks). If they were not income taxed, they could actually afford to keep 30% and give 70% to their employees. The govt should work for free! Or at least not have well-paid jobbers who use government as a means of securing even more wealth through schemes and lobby connections. As speaker, Pelosi was slated for only $224,000. This is more than I have every made in a single year, by about twenty times. Government representatives are servants of the people (quotes a scene from Dragon Prince here), but just from regular salary they are behaving more like the "lords" Jesus described. And it gets worse. Her actual money is closer to $30.5 million. If I was on a fixed income, even a good one, even tax free and never spending on anything, I should hope to save up ten times my current salary of tens years, and adjust for how ever many years I'm in power. But let's see... $30.5 million, that would take just over 100 years, if she was working the entire time honestly at that wage. Of course, if she wasn't working honestly, she could make that money quickly!
K:  thats absurd and basically communism as youre suggesting govt workers should rheb get a base living allowance.   Whos the commie now?
B: You are! You support exactly as Marx proposed, an economic system to forcibly "redistribute" wealth. In China and Russia, this always winds up with gross inflation, and with the head honcho and his oligarch living in palaces, while the public uses a cart to buy bread and waots in line for eight hours to by turnips, as all the farmers have been killed for being property owners by the state or "the people" (in this case referring to a bunch of thugs), then those who can't farm take the job. I'm leaning anarchist, actually. But I'm suggesting that only government staff (the guy who makes the coffee, etc.) ought to be paid, by allocation. The Congress and Senate should be drafted like jury members. One gig (government says "we need about 200 or so people in our Congressional meeting to vote for X days", paid only when it's done) and when Congress goes on break (these breaks are enforced!), they should be sent home. We don't need career politicians. We need accountable people who want to go home as they are given a non-fun job as drafted temps. Actually, you know, jury should be paid volunteers, Congress should be drafted and not paid until afterwards. The staff gives them cheap food like pizza and a hotel, but they are not here to make money or have sweet vacations on taxpayer dime. They are here to vote for public good, and when their job is done, a new Congress is picked. The old ex-Congress get a perk of a better resume.
K: ...You're stupid.
You should do that "You mean it's made from corn and fine in moderation" thing.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 07:16:25 AM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2023, 02:43:55 PM »
1. I KNOW most small businesses struggle.
2. I am also aware of the "double" tax.  Yes it sucks but that's how it works: Businesses pay half the cost of welfare taxes, employees pay the other half.  As someone who is self employed, you gotta pay both.
3. Employees are expensive as hell.  I know, I did the math once when looking to hire a nanny.  Not that we could hire one, mind you, but I was curious.
4. Your problem is that you're equating business profits with personal income.  This is, in fact, a bad thing to do and why you found yourself with such a high tax burden.

LLC.  Keep your business income separate from your personal income.  File them separately.  Works out alot better.  That way you don't get taxed twice.  You are taxed once. Your business is taxed once. 

As for your list of things to do:

1. "Abolish double-charging for business owners. They are either employers or employees, they shouldn't be both."
You are both tho.  That's just how it is.  Someone has to be the employer and if you're not an LLC or some other corporation type, that person is the owner of the business.  Because then the business isn't a person (legally)

2. "Set taxes at a flat 10%. Trust me, it adjusts to higher salaries, and reasonable amounts can sustainably be paid. Otherwise, it's like a bad loan you have to collect on. You cannot get blood from a turnip."
A flat 10% sounds fun.  Just curious how that would work out.... *goes to check IRS data*
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/
Going by 2020 data (I know, not the best but its what I got)
Total AGI is 12.5 Trillion
A 10% tax rate (assuming no tax breaks) would give the US government $1.25 Trillion in income from taxes.
The 2020 tax system gave them $1.7 Trillion.

So its Better for the governemnt.  But what about the people?
The bottom 50% averaged 3.1% income tax rate.  You're proposing we tripple that.
The TOP 10% averaged 20% income tax rate.  You're proposing we cut that in half.
Is it really fair to tell the worse off that they have to pay 3x more in taxes while the top 10% get to pay half?  How would that help?

3. Overtime is still income.  Yes it CAN fuck you over.  I've been there with a pay raise.  Got put into a higher tax bracket, ended up paying more in taxes which caused me to have slightly less takehome pay.  But to say "Oh no, its not taxable" would violate the whole idea of income tax.
Plus, overtime laws vary by state.  PLUS.. salaried employees are EXEMPT from federal overtime laws.  So that lawyer you spoke of?  Yeah, he may not get paid overtime.  Depends on the state laws.

Look, it sucks.  Personally, I'd rather have any small business with less than 10 employees and revenue under a certain amount be exempt from income and payroll tax.  But that would be abused so god damn fast. (Hi, I'm Trump and I just made 200 shell companies with 1 employee each to handle all my money tax free)
There SHOULD be a way to make it work with minimal risk for abuse.  But I don't know it.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2023, 04:55:52 AM »
But why should an employer be taxed? They are performing a vital surface by giving others a source of income? If anything ought to be done away with, it is the idea of this. If I pay 72% in taxes, this hamstrings my ability to help others.

If I instead pay 36% in tax, assuming no other expenses, I now can set aside significantly more to pay employees.

Further, I have no employees. I work as a small struggling business who formerly had two employees. If I am self employed, but have no employees, in what way should I pat double? The reasoning behind this is complete nonsense. It talks about fair share and debt, but the truth is that older businesses are grandfathered in to systems where this extra payment didn't exist (laws made to prevent competition), or maybe its shared by the corporation instead of loaded on the back of a single person. For a new business owner, even 12% instead of 6% is financially ruinous.

When you automatically distrust businesses as greedy, when you then punish them, you deserve the fact that government stole money you could have earned, and instead "gives" (loans) it to you. But money you don't get to keep is not really yours. So ultimately, working for a business, you get a smaller cut of your income, and you get a big fake "time and a half" instead of properly getting most or all of what you actually earn. As long as you can't let go of envy of "rich" people, even when I tell you they are rich only because they avoid these pits you have set upon them, and this money instead gets sent to you. Poorer people like me can't afford advice on how to get out of these double taxes, these sudden raises in bracket, these financial traps. So they are ruined by things like winning the lottery.

Overtime should not be taxed. Income should not be taxed, if we're being honest. Gifts, prizes, and inheritance shouldn't be taxed. Property shouldn't be taxed. Whatever you earn, it is unethical for a third party to steal.

Now, what you spend on, yes it is ethical to add more to it. This tax affects both the rich and the poor, but now that the poor aren't being bled by what they earn, they can actually earn without a sick fear that if they earn too much, most of it will be taken. "A worker deserves his wages." When you have to save up until the end of tax season, when you have a legion of IRS agents looking for an excuse to get your money, you never develop a healthy sense of saving money. However, when too much spending is punished, you learn to save money.

 "But sales tax punishes the poor." Yes, but as the rich are convinced by their church to help the poor, they have more to help with. The poor are not as poor, until they are taxed into poverty.
 A man can be poked every time he rises up, or whenever he bends over. Which of these is designed to keep him low to the ground?

And for all of those complaining about how it still punishes the poor, sales tax can be exempted for certain goods. Grocert stores have even automated this process. Taxing cigarettes but not food? Sure, you can do that.

Abolishing income tax and property tax would be the best thing you can do. Failing that, ridding the world of the onerous double tax and taxes on overtime would be a positive step to the overall wealth of communities. When people are wealthier, guess what? They go out and buy that XBox 4 at 20% sales tax. They go out and get a retractable awning. They are able to have a pool, because unlike a renter who never gets to own a roof over their head, a house (in the absence of property taxes) stays bought, leaving them able to focus on other expenses. They are certainly able to feed themselves. You can make an economy like this using cradle to grave government management (China tried this with the Rice Bowl, I think it was called)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_rice_bowl
but the end result is far more expensive than just letting people work at what makes them happy, and leaving them to it. Stress comes from worrying constantly if you have a roof over your head, or whether taxes leave you with enough to eat. With a VAT, you never think about this because the current price is already set.

There is a system to stop abusing ppl. But it only starts when you stop thinking of people as automatically richer than you because of what you can see.
Some people have fancy clothes and fancy cars, but have no money left because they spent beyond their means. Other people look like wretches but are actually rich because they like to save up for emergencies, and find the government is always taking the money they set aside for their kids to have a better life. When you yourself can't be sure if someone is rich or poor, how can you expect the government to do so? Owns a business, appears rich? Yes but that $100,000 a year on paper  might go to any number of expenses from charities to business cosrs to therapy to addictions to genuine desire to pay employees a decent wage. Government doesn't care. They want 70% of that, which any newly rich person gets blindsided by. That sort of system abuses people who have a sudden upgrade in salary. If you stop punishing hard workers, the system works as intended. Taxing higher base pay, not taxing those who work long hours past the 40 hour threshold.

When we let go of the busybody covet impulse, and just tax flatly or not at all, everyone thrives.
When you let go of the lie that government debt is yours, it suddenly doesn't make any more sense to abuse people with high taxes. It's their own damned fault.
They ought to declare bankruptcy and start settling their debts like responsible adults. Instead, as I say, they are the child who bought a game system with money they don't have, and when the bill collectors come, are demanding that the town help pay their debts. And when you do, that time, they continue to spend and spend.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2023, 05:14:14 AM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2023, 08:20:59 AM »
"why taz small business?"

Because big corp love their monopolie and ontop of their maassive buying power, now they get to passively squeeze out rhe little guy





"Why tax an employer at all"?

Becuae the business is accessing the resource of both/ either labor or consumer.
People cost money.

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2023, 11:06:47 AM »
But why should an employer be taxed? They are performing a vital surface by giving others a source of income? If anything ought to be done away with, it is the idea of this. If I pay 72% in taxes, this hamstrings my ability to help others.

If I instead pay 36% in tax, assuming no other expenses, I now can set aside significantly more to pay employees.

Further, I have no employees. I work as a small struggling business who formerly had two employees. If I am self employed, but have no employees, in what way should I pat double? The reasoning behind this is complete nonsense. It talks about fair share and debt, but the truth is that older businesses are grandfathered in to systems where this extra payment didn't exist (laws made to prevent competition), or maybe its shared by the corporation instead of loaded on the back of a single person. For a new business owner, even 12% instead of 6% is financially ruinous.

When you automatically distrust businesses as greedy, when you then punish them, you deserve the fact that government stole money you could have earned, and instead "gives" (loans) it to you. But money you don't get to keep is not really yours. So ultimately, working for a business, you get a smaller cut of your income, and you get a big fake "time and a half" instead of properly getting most or all of what you actually earn. As long as you can't let go of envy of "rich" people, even when I tell you they are rich only because they avoid these pits you have set upon them, and this money instead gets sent to you. Poorer people like me can't afford advice on how to get out of these double taxes, these sudden raises in bracket, these financial traps. So they are ruined by things like winning the lottery.

Overtime should not be taxed. Income should not be taxed, if we're being honest. Gifts, prizes, and inheritance shouldn't be taxed. Property shouldn't be taxed. Whatever you earn, it is unethical for a third party to steal.

Now, what you spend on, yes it is ethical to add more to it. This tax affects both the rich and the poor, but now that the poor aren't being bled by what they earn, they can actually earn without a sick fear that if they earn too much, most of it will be taken. "A worker deserves his wages." When you have to save up until the end of tax season, when you have a legion of IRS agents looking for an excuse to get your money, you never develop a healthy sense of saving money. However, when too much spending is punished, you learn to save money.

 "But sales tax punishes the poor." Yes, but as the rich are convinced by their church to help the poor, they have more to help with. The poor are not as poor, until they are taxed into poverty.
 A man can be poked every time he rises up, or whenever he bends over. Which of these is designed to keep him low to the ground?

And for all of those complaining about how it still punishes the poor, sales tax can be exempted for certain goods. Grocert stores have even automated this process. Taxing cigarettes but not food? Sure, you can do that.

Abolishing income tax and property tax would be the best thing you can do. Failing that, ridding the world of the onerous double tax and taxes on overtime would be a positive step to the overall wealth of communities. When people are wealthier, guess what? They go out and buy that XBox 4 at 20% sales tax. They go out and get a retractable awning. They are able to have a pool, because unlike a renter who never gets to own a roof over their head, a house (in the absence of property taxes) stays bought, leaving them able to focus on other expenses. They are certainly able to feed themselves. You can make an economy like this using cradle to grave government management (China tried this with the Rice Bowl, I think it was called)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_rice_bowl
but the end result is far more expensive than just letting people work at what makes them happy, and leaving them to it. Stress comes from worrying constantly if you have a roof over your head, or whether taxes leave you with enough to eat. With a VAT, you never think about this because the current price is already set.

There is a system to stop abusing ppl. But it only starts when you stop thinking of people as automatically richer than you because of what you can see.
Some people have fancy clothes and fancy cars, but have no money left because they spent beyond their means. Other people look like wretches but are actually rich because they like to save up for emergencies, and find the government is always taking the money they set aside for their kids to have a better life. When you yourself can't be sure if someone is rich or poor, how can you expect the government to do so? Owns a business, appears rich? Yes but that $100,000 a year on paper  might go to any number of expenses from charities to business cosrs to therapy to addictions to genuine desire to pay employees a decent wage. Government doesn't care. They want 70% of that, which any newly rich person gets blindsided by. That sort of system abuses people who have a sudden upgrade in salary. If you stop punishing hard workers, the system works as intended. Taxing higher base pay, not taxing those who work long hours past the 40 hour threshold.

When we let go of the busybody covet impulse, and just tax flatly or not at all, everyone thrives.
When you let go of the lie that government debt is yours, it suddenly doesn't make any more sense to abuse people with high taxes. It's their own damned fault.
They ought to declare bankruptcy and start settling their debts like responsible adults. Instead, as I say, they are the child who bought a game system with money they don't have, and when the bill collectors come, are demanding that the town help pay their debts. And when you do, that time, they continue to spend and spend.

I'm gonna just reply thus:
Corporations don't like competition.  Small businesses are competition.  Best to wipe them out.

Also: if you use your extra money to pay people more than you have to, you're a fool of a business owner. 
Rule of Aquiaition #3: Never spend more than you have to.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2023, 08:06:33 AM »
Quote
I'm gonna just reply thus:
Corporations don't like competition.  Small businesses are competition.  Best to wipe them out.

Also: if you use your extra money to pay people more than you have to, you're a fool of a business owner.
Rule of Aquiaition #3: Never spend more than you have to.

As an ex-business owner, I agree with both of these sentiments.

However, I would just like to add that income taxes leads to earning traps. Let's consider the tax bracket system.

On a 10% flat tax, if I earn $10,998 or $11,002 then the $4 difference doesn't make much difference.

$1099.80 or $1100.20 for a difference of $0.40 total.

On a tax bracket, however, you raise 2% in taxes.

Let's do the math.

10% (or, x 0.10) of $11002 =  $1100.20
12% (or, x 0.12) of $11002 = $1320.24

Do you get it? Tax brackets create unnecessary addition of roughly $200 more in taxes, for just $4 difference between over and under the bracket.

The worst one appear to be the jump between $44,725 and $44,726 (10% increase), and between $182,100 and $182,101 (8% increase). If some well-wisher gives you just $1 over what you want to earn, suddenly instead of paying $43,704 then you pay $58,272.32, a full $15,000 more.

Is your envy of the rich really so much that you would punish the sorta rich by being even a dollar over expectation?     

"Omg, that man is making $182,101! He's a scoundrel! Not like that guy over there only making $182,100."

To say nothing of the fact that you guys tell me:
(1) Capitalist big businesses are exploiting workers by paying them too little.
(2) You shouldn't as a businessman pay workers generously. That's stupid.

Make up your minds!



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2023, 08:34:12 AM »
As for me, this is my proposal

No Fuss Tax
  • Tax filing is no longer necessary for employees. They simply receive a 10% cut from their paycheck, plus Medicare and Social Security.
  • Only business owners or the self-employed have to file taxes. You can do it, if you want to itemize, but for the most part, it's not needed. Again, 10% tax, no overtime taxes, and no double filing for business owners (the employee/employer thing). Add together any income receipts, multiply by 0.10, and you have your yearly taxes. But most of the public gets paycheck taxes.
  • The self-employed can opt to do quarterly or even monthly taxes if it makes it easier to file. Currently, this too is set on a tax bracket (you must do quarterly taxes if you earn over a certain amount of net profit, not including expenses) rather than on personal choice.
  • Unless itemizing, taxes should be postcard sized.
  • Priests receive a paycheck without the 10% tax.
  • Politicians receive a small stipend (or no money) without the 10% tax. Their staff are not paid by them but using a cut of taxes to create salaries for them.
  • Tax refunds can still be applied for, provided one is either paid less than $10,000 a year, or meets some conditions (serious handicap or large family, for example). Both refunds and itemizing ought to be simplified to use only one sheet of form paper, and less paper to explain instructions.
  • Do away with daylight savings adjustments. Here's another yearly encounter with bureaucrats setting rules about how your time is managed.

Ideally, people ought not to have to show up and deal with bureaucrats. Even more ideally, people ought not to even pay income taxes. But between the two, having 80% of taxpayers never see another 1040 or W-2 again, and just get a bit less than original paycheck would be a massive quality of life improvement.



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2023, 11:00:49 AM »
Quote
I'm gonna just reply thus:
Corporations don't like competition.  Small businesses are competition.  Best to wipe them out.

Also: if you use your extra money to pay people more than you have to, you're a fool of a business owner.
Rule of Aquiaition #3: Never spend more than you have to.

As an ex-business owner, I agree with both of these sentiments.

However, I would just like to add that income taxes leads to earning traps. Let's consider the tax bracket system.

On a 10% flat tax, if I earn $10,998 or $11,002 then the $4 difference doesn't make much difference.

$1099.80 or $1100.20 for a difference of $0.40 total.

On a tax bracket, however, you raise 2% in taxes.

Let's do the math.

10% (or, x 0.10) of $11002 =  $1100.20
12% (or, x 0.12) of $11002 = $1320.24

Do you get it? Tax brackets create unnecessary addition of roughly $200 more in taxes, for just $4 difference between over and under the bracket.

The worst one appear to be the jump between $44,725 and $44,726 (10% increase), and between $182,100 and $182,101 (8% increase). If some well-wisher gives you just $1 over what you want to earn, suddenly instead of paying $43,704 then you pay $58,272.32, a full $15,000 more.

Is your envy of the rich really so much that you would punish the sorta rich by being even a dollar over expectation?     

"Omg, that man is making $182,101! He's a scoundrel! Not like that guy over there only making $182,100."

To say nothing of the fact that you guys tell me:
(1) Capitalist big businesses are exploiting workers by paying them too little.
(2) You shouldn't as a businessman pay workers generously. That's stupid.

Make up your minds!

You are really REALLY bad at math. 
$11,002 x 12% tax bracket...

First we take taxes from $10,000.
Which is $1,000
Now 12% of the rest.
$1,002  x 12% = $120.24

Total tax = $1,120.24

Total tax on a flat 10% tax
$1,100.2

Why did you do yours wrong?  All you did was say that a flat tax of 10% is less than a flat tax of 12%.  Is that your point?
Yes you pay more taxes on a marinal tax than a flat tax.($20)  Is that your point?  Because thats obvious.

I think your problem is that, somehow, you don't understand how taxes work.
A tax bracket doesn't mean you pay a flat tax based on how much you make.  You are taxed only on the income in the bracket.

So that $1 over the bracket is the only thing taxed at the higher rate. 

So lets say you make $44,725
Then get an extra dollar.
Your tax would be....
$11,000 x 10% = $1,100
($11,000-$44,725)x12%= $33,725x%12= $4,047
($44,725-$44,726) x %22= $1x22%=$0.22

Total tax bill?
$5,147.22

Again, its not a flat tax of your whole income.


As for your proposal:
I'll wrie about it later. 
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

*

Lorddave

  • 18171
Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2023, 01:34:55 PM »
As for me, this is my proposal

No Fuss Tax
  • Tax filing is no longer necessary for employees. They simply receive a 10% cut from their paycheck, plus Medicare and Social Security.
  • Only business owners or the self-employed have to file taxes. You can do it, if you want to itemize, but for the most part, it's not needed. Again, 10% tax, no overtime taxes, and no double filing for business owners (the employee/employer thing). Add together any income receipts, multiply by 0.10, and you have your yearly taxes. But most of the public gets paycheck taxes.
  • The self-employed can opt to do quarterly or even monthly taxes if it makes it easier to file. Currently, this too is set on a tax bracket (you must do quarterly taxes if you earn over a certain amount of net profit, not including expenses) rather than on personal choice.
  • Unless itemizing, taxes should be postcard sized.
  • Priests receive a paycheck without the 10% tax.
  • Politicians receive a small stipend (or no money) without the 10% tax. Their staff are not paid by them but using a cut of taxes to create salaries for them.
  • Tax refunds can still be applied for, provided one is either paid less than $10,000 a year, or meets some conditions (serious handicap or large family, for example). Both refunds and itemizing ought to be simplified to use only one sheet of form paper, and less paper to explain instructions.
  • Do away with daylight savings adjustments. Here's another yearly encounter with bureaucrats setting rules about how your time is managed.

Ideally, people ought not to have to show up and deal with bureaucrats. Even more ideally, people ought not to even pay income taxes. But between the two, having 80% of taxpayers never see another 1040 or W-2 again, and just get a bit less than original paycheck would be a massive quality of life improvement.

I'm not gonna shoot all this down becasue you could make it work.  It would require some serious changes to the US spending tho as 10% of all income would be very... small compared to what pays it now.  Curious how much....Huh... actually not much at all, if any. https://www.statista.com/statistics/216756/us-personal-income/
$21.8 trillion in total income. 
If we then use this chart: https://www.heritage.org/taxes/commentary/1-chart-how-much-the-rich-pay-taxes

Which would yield $2.1 trillion in revenue with no tax deductions at 10% flat tax.And if we assume that of the 12% of the bottom 50% that 5% wouldn't pay taxes,
$252,000,000,000.  Lets say 5% qualify for no taxes. 252,000,000,000-(252,000,000,000 *.15) =252,000,000,000-37,800,000,000 = $214,200,000,000
Which when taken from the $2.1 trillion, is $1.88 Trillion in revenue.

2022 income revenue from taxes was $2.6 Trillion.  A sizable drop.



Now, I for one am a big fan of few tax deductions.  Remove payroll tax for anyone making less than X a year where X is 120% of the poverty line.  But its gonna be a big drop in revenue for the federal government.

As for paying politiicans nothing or almost nothing:
Bad idea.
Let me ask you this.

You can run for senator of... whatever state you live in. BUT you only get $500 a month.
This must cover food, housing in DC and your home state, utilities, travel, etc...
Would you run for senate?

Because remember, you spend half the time in DC, half the time in your home state (because you need to maintain a residency in the state you represent).  And DC apartments are NOT cheap. 

Also, what constitutes income?
Lets say I'm a stock broker.  I buy and sell stocks.  Do I get taxed for every stock sales(which nets me income)?  Do I get taxed for dividends on stocks? Do I get taxed as I sell them or at teh end of the year as a tally of total income? What if I send all my money into a foreign bank instead and, on paper, I have no money in America?  Does that count?  Taxes are complicated.  Flat taxes sound simple until you start looking at the details.

As for easy taxes: Not possible for America.
I have easy taxes.  I get an SMS on my phone saying "Your taxes are ready".  I log into the tax website.  It shows my total income from salary and my bank account.  It says how much I paid in taxes allready and if I owe anything, get anything back, or break even.  If all looks right, I click submit and I'm done.

For Americans, this would be akin to tyranny.  See, to do this, the tax office needs to know every paycheck you get and every bank transation you make.  In Norway, we don't have individual states so the federal law is basically the only law.  But the US is different.  The states have laws that the Federal government can't undo or bypass.  And the government can't read your bank transactions anytime they want for tax purposes.  Not without permission and probably some legal red tape from the state in question.

But this is the same nation that has it be illegal for the federal archives of gun ownership to be allowed a digital search. (and it took decades and a threat of a massive expense increase of a new building to convince them to digitize the paper into unsearchable PDFs)

dunno anything about priests so I'm not gonna comment on that.

I, too, hate daylight savings time.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2023, 02:32:55 PM »
Quote
I'm gonna just reply thus:
Corporations don't like competition.  Small businesses are competition.  Best to wipe them out.

Also: if you use your extra money to pay people more than you have to, you're a fool of a business owner.
Rule of Aquiaition #3: Never spend more than you have to.

As an ex-business owner, I agree with both of these sentiments.

However, I would just like to add that income taxes leads to earning traps. Let's consider the tax bracket system.

On a 10% flat tax, if I earn $10,998 or $11,002 then the $4 difference doesn't make much difference.

$1099.80 or $1100.20 for a difference of $0.40 total.

On a tax bracket, however, you raise 2% in taxes.

Let's do the math.

10% (or, x 0.10) of $11002 =  $1100.20
12% (or, x 0.12) of $11002 = $1320.24

Do you get it? Tax brackets create unnecessary addition of roughly $200 more in taxes, for just $4 difference between over and under the bracket.

The worst one appear to be the jump between $44,725 and $44,726 (10% increase), and between $182,100 and $182,101 (8% increase). If some well-wisher gives you just $1 over what you want to earn, suddenly instead of paying $43,704 then you pay $58,272.32, a full $15,000 more.

Is your envy of the rich really so much that you would punish the sorta rich by being even a dollar over expectation?     

"Omg, that man is making $182,101! He's a scoundrel! Not like that guy over there only making $182,100."

To say nothing of the fact that you guys tell me:
(1) Capitalist big businesses are exploiting workers by paying them too little.
(2) You shouldn't as a businessman pay workers generously. That's stupid.

Make up your minds!



WhaT?!?!

if you're in a 10% tax and it is increased by 2%
that has nothing to do with brackets.
an increased tax rate is an increased tax rate.

are we to understand you don't know 10+2 = 12 adn that 12 is a bigger number than 10?


or as dave points out - you don't understand the brackets?



what are you on about?!

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2023, 05:36:28 AM »
Are you THAT dishonest that you can't understand the reality of tax brackets? Just 2% more was a huge jump in price.

https://www.bankrate.com/taxes/quick-tax-rate-calculator/

This gives a different bracket.

At $40,000 your marginal taxes are 12% or $3000 (that makes no sense as even 10% is $4000, except they further muddy waters by adding in deductions).  At $49,999 the marginal tax rate is still 12%, however by $55,000 it has jumped to 22%. How the tax doesn't seem to have budged here much. What gives? Well thanks to deductions, seems that what matters is what's called the average tax rate (thanks for making everyone's life more complicated IRS, and I'm sure they are glad to take your money if you overpay, but even one cent less and they send thugs to collect) which is still at 8%. So when does it jump? Glad you asked.

Taxes for $55,000 at 8% average (with marginal tax): $4688.00 (to $6600)
Taxes instead with 10% flat tax: $5,500 (with refunds for overtime work, based on hours overtime and hourly salary, if applicable; some jobs are simply a yearly salary nomatter how often you work)
Taxes for $56,000 at 9.09% average (with marginal tax): $5088 (to $12,320)

If any of this seems wrong, refer to the website. They show you exactly how that number got there.

What I'm getting at here is that the average payer can actually pay less due to several random and arbitrary rules but since this is an average, the margin can also make them pay much much more. Not only might you pay more by accident, and lose hairs due to stress, but if you accidentally pay less than you owed, you get harassed. The whole thing is uncivilized. It's nearly 2024. You should not have to in this day and age, spend hours that you aren't being paid dealing with bureaucrats! You should have that money already paid, unless the paycheck person got it wrong, in which case, that should be taken out of the company, not you. At your end, you get a little extra spending money.

A flat tax with a deduction for overtime will only ever be in your favor. And it frees you up for more recreation time. How many people are at home are stuck being unable to figure out their taxes, and thus unable to go anywhere, until finally they break down, and pay money to hire an accountant?  With this tax plan, the accountant doing paycheck just fills out a form for you that says "if hourly wages exceed $150/hr and/or are between 15 and 40 hours weekly, add a 10% tax (divide total income up to 40 hours by 10). Add any income over forty hours here. This is overtime income, and is not taxable. " Not only do embezzlers get caught in rather short order, as both the boss and the government check their work against when the time sheets say, but more people have more spending money to spend on nice things (which are taxed).

Further, you don't have to be sadisticly tortured by A students in math every year. The guy writing the paycheck does the work, sends off the money to tax men, and ultimately liable if they cheat on your income. The only dealings with the IRS you get is if you want to report that they didn't deduct for overtime, and should have. Or if you have a condition that causes more deductions.

So what's the hang up here? Less bureaucracy, the form can be filled out by a nine year old who knows how to follow directions, and people on average have more money in pocket.  Oh yeah, and you never have to fill out another IRS form again, unless you're unlucky enough to be doing paychecks. Taxes can and should be made part of the paycheck itself, except for business owners. And they should have simpler time at taxes too, no longer required to double pay for some imaginary debt that isn't even theirs. Any child who has learned to divide can divide by 10 rather easily, while the majority of Americans don't understand percents.

Unless you have proved that it isn't just jealousy of the rich here, I'm afraid there is no more case for tax brackets.


« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 06:19:28 AM by bulmabriefs144 »



Quote from: Themightykabool
crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Re: taxes don't steal from people, people steal from people
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2023, 06:10:45 AM »
If youre taxed at 1$ for first 10$ you make.

And 3$ for the 2nd 10$ you make

The first bracket is 10.
The 2nd bracket is 11-20.

So
If you make 10$ = 1$tax.
And if you make 18$ = 10%x10 + 30%x8= 3.40$tax

Brackets.