Foucault pendulums

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

Nobody is saying that there's no tension on the wire, nobody is saying the tension doesn't change. Care to tell us all where that kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.

If I thought for a second that you would be capable of following the explanation, I'd give it, but given your apparent inability to comprehend fairly simple physics, I'm not going to bother. Your best bet would probably be some remedial classes of some kind to at least get you up to a high-school level of understanding.

More insults  lol .I'm only asking you to show me where the kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.  Here's an example so you can get your head around what a torque is & how it has a relationship with pivot point's
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Quote from: Scintific Method on June 09, 2014, 09:30:44 PM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

Nobody is saying that there's no tension on the wire, nobody is saying the tension doesn't change. Care to tell us all where that kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.

If I thought for a second that you would be capable of following the explanation, I'd give it, but given your apparent inability to comprehend fairly simple physics, I'm not going to bother. Your best bet would probably be some remedial classes of some kind to at least get you up to a high-school level of understanding.

More insults  lol .I'm only asking you to show me where the kinetic energy generated is

The only motion caused by tension in the wire is going to be along the length of the wire. It's not going to produce any lateral motion of the bob.

How many strikes are you going to get before you're finally called out?

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 10:03:50 PM

Quote from: Scintific Method on June 09, 2014, 09:30:44 PM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

Nobody is saying that there's no tension on the wire, nobody is saying the tension doesn't change. Care to tell us all where that kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.

If I thought for a second that you would be capable of following the explanation, I'd give it, but given your apparent inability to comprehend fairly simple physics, I'm not going to bother. Your best bet would probably be some remedial classes of some kind to at least get you up to a high-school level of understanding.

More insults  lol .I'm only asking you to show me where the kinetic energy generated is

The only motion caused by tension in the wire is going to be along the length of the wire. It's not going to produce any lateral motion of the bob.

How many strikes are you going to get before you're finally called out?

Says Who ? You ?. Have you never "heard" a rope or cable creak under tension. If it emits a sound wave, then the kinetic energy is not being isolated with in the cable. its emitting a wave frequency.
to pretend its non existence or trivialise its existence is to distort the truth & LIE. 

     I have just spent a bit over two hours on 28 pages of this snot. Get a plastic bucket, some rope a tree and some water. Go play have a beer and a think. I might get into selling physics books to flat earthers, I can see the smoking ears already. You know how easy it is to sit on your balls if you got no duds on, is that maybe why Scotchmen get so fucking angry?.

Quote from: Scintific Method on June 09, 2014, 09:30:44 PM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

Nobody is saying that there's no tension on the wire, nobody is saying the tension doesn't change. Care to tell us all where that kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.

If I thought for a second that you would be capable of following the explanation, I'd give it, but given your apparent inability to comprehend fairly simple physics, I'm not going to bother. Your best bet would probably be some remedial classes of some kind to at least get you up to a high-school level of understanding.

More insults  lol .I'm only asking you to show me where the kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.  Here's an example so you can get your head around what a torque is & how it has a relationship with pivot point's
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Oh, nice, a video on gyroscopic precession! Well, that's close enough to being on-topic I suppose...

Ok, some pendulum basics, since it seems the bleedingly obvious needs to be pointed out: at it's starting position, a pendulum has no kinetic energy, but a certain amount of potential energy (depending on how high it is above it's "rest" position, and how much it weighs). As it swings down to the lowest point of it's swing, all this potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. As it is swinging up again to the other high point, the kinetic energy it had is converted back into potential energy, with a small amount having been lost along the way as heat and sound.

And a little more in-depth: the tension in the wire at the top of the swing is equal to the weight of the bob multiplied by the cosine of the angle the wire makes with the vertical (mg.cosθ). At the lowest point of the swing, the tension is equal to the weight of the bob, plus the mass of the bob multiplied by it's tangential velocity squared and divided by the length of the wire (mg+mv²/r).

The tension always acts along the wire, as does the centripetal force. There is no torque in the system.

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 10:03:50 PM

Quote from: Scintific Method on June 09, 2014, 09:30:44 PM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

Nobody is saying that there's no tension on the wire, nobody is saying the tension doesn't change. Care to tell us all where that kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.

If I thought for a second that you would be capable of following the explanation, I'd give it, but given your apparent inability to comprehend fairly simple physics, I'm not going to bother. Your best bet would probably be some remedial classes of some kind to at least get you up to a high-school level of understanding.

More insults  lol .I'm only asking you to show me where the kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.  Here's an example so you can get your head around what a torque is & how it has a relationship with pivot point's
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Oh, nice, a video on gyroscopic precession! Well, that's close enough to being on-topic I suppose...

Ok, some pendulum basics, since it seems the bleedingly obvious needs to be pointed out: at it's starting position, a pendulum has no kinetic energy, but a certain amount of potential energy (depending on how high it is above it's "rest" position, and how much it weighs). As it swings down to the lowest point of it's swing, all this potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. As it is swinging up again to the other high point, the kinetic energy it had is converted back into potential energy, with a small amount having been lost along the way as heat and sound.

And a little more in-depth: the tension in the wire at the top of the swing is equal to the weight of the bob multiplied by the cosine of the angle the wire makes with the vertical (mg.cosθ). At the lowest point of the swing, the tension is equal to the weight of the bob, plus the mass of the bob multiplied by it's tangential velocity squared and divided by the length of the wire (mg+mv²/r).

The tension always acts along the wire, as does the centripetal force. There is no torque in the system.

Fantasy land.
What happen to the force of momentum. go on holidays did it ? 

     I have just spent a bit over two hours on 28 pages of this snot. Get a plastic bucket, some rope a tree and some water. Go play have a beer and a think. I might get into selling physics books to flat earthers, I can see the smoking ears already. You know how easy it is to sit on your balls if you got no duds on, is that maybe why Scotchmen get so fucking angry?.

Well at lest we have balls ya piss ant.
Lets take your bucket of water hang it from a branch that just manages to hold its weight. now swing it. What happens to the branch ? ya dick head.

Quote from: markjo on June 09, 2014, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 06:05:17 PM

Well if they can underhandedly & deceptively own your ass with out your consent...

  Whoa there!!  Are you saying that a birth certificate is a document of ownership?  If this wasn't way off topic, I'd tell you to get a second opinion on your meds.

Are you saying that a birth certificate is a document of ownership?Sure is buddy. They own your incorporated ass & you hold a copy of that legal binding document. Every thing you do regarding commerce is attached to that document. Until the debt is paid back in full, by the corporation that held  the rights to borrow on its stock.

Wow.  Just...  wow.

Now can I have the  answer please ,on where that kinetic energy generated in the suspension cable is being transferred to.             

The kinetic energy being transferred to potential energy on the up swing and the potential energy is being converted to kinetic energy on the down swing.  Thanks to the wonderful principle of conservation of energy, the total energy in the system (give or take friction) stays constant.

I like how he conveniently ignores my question. He knows the answer will destroy his ridiculous argument.

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 09, 2014, 02:33:54 AM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 08, 2014, 10:26:40 PM

You have conveniently negated the angular momentum torque. It minuscule but its still there.

I'm not familiar with the term "angular momentum torque".  Could you please explain it?  As far as I knew, angular momentum produced no torque at all, as the momentum is 100% conserved within the closed system of the bob and its suspension string.

The torque is developed by the building & realising of tension in the suspension cable. Caused by gravitational resistance to the centripetal momentum. A resonating wave is produced  by the change in torque & tension on the suspension cable every swing .     

There is NO torque "developed" due the angular momentum of any body.  Tension in the suspension string is zero at the maximum point of the bob's swing—when its velocity is zero.  The tension force in the string is at its maximum when the bob is exactly vertical.  All applied forces on the bob are coplanar, and therefore are unable to produce ANY torque in the bob.

The force of gravity acting on the bob can be resolved into two components. One component is directed tangentially to the circular arc along which the bob moves.  The other component is directed perpendicular to the circular arc—IE along the string.  The perpendicular component of gravity is in the opposite direction of the tension force in the string. This tension force is always larger than or equal to the perpendicular component of gravity.  The tangential component is known as the restoring force, and is obviously responsible for the bob's displacement.

   Have a go at this and sit carefully.


http://www.abc.net.au/surf/pendulum/pendulum.htm

In 1848 Leon Foucault was setting up a long, skinny metal rod in his lathe. He "twanged" it, and the end of the piece of metal proceeded to go up-and-down. If you treat the chuck of the lathe like a clock, the end vibrated from 12 o'clock down to 6 o'clock, and back to 12 o'clock, and so on. He slowly rotated the chuck by 90 degrees. But the end of the metal rod steadfastly vibrated back-and-forth between 12 and 6 o'clock!

This set Leon Foucault thinking. He set up a small pendulum in his drill press. He set the pendulum oscillating, and then started the drill press. Once again, the pendulum kept swinging in its original plane, and ignored the fact that its mounting point was rotating.

He then constructed a 2 metre-long pendulum with a 5 kilogram ball in his workshop in his cellar. Before the amplitude of the swing died away totally, he saw that the weight on the end of the pendulum appeared to rotate clockwise . Now that he was convinced of the principle, he built a second pendulum with an 11-metre wire in the Paris Observatory, and it too rotated clockwise.(5)

He was asked to construct something "big" for the 1850 Paris Exhibition, and he constructed a 67-metre tall Foucault Pendulum in the PanthŽon - a Parisian church also known as the church of Saint GeneviŹve. He went to a great deal of trouble to make sure that the wire was perfectly symmetrical in its metallurgy. He used a 28 kilogram cannon ball. A stylus was placed under the ball, and sand was scattered under the potential path of the ball, so that the stylus would cut a trace in the sand.

The ball was pulled to one side, and held in place with a string. With much ceremony, the string was set alight, and the ball began to describe a beautiful, straight (non-elliptical) path in the sand. Within a few minutes, the pendulum had begun to swing a little clockwise - and the previous, narrow straight-line in the sand had widened to look like a twin-bladed propeller. The experiment was a success! The Earth rotated "under" his pendulum.

So it was possible, way back in 1850, to set up an experiment inside a room which had no view of the outside world, and prove that the Earth rotated! (6)


   And you don't have to look out the window.

I'd like to see this pendulum be tested in an evacuated chamber.

I'd like to see this pendulum be tested in an evacuated chamber.

Get on it then!

Quote from: Scintific Method on June 10, 2014, 02:55:04 AM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 10:03:50 PM

Quote from: Scintific Method on June 09, 2014, 09:30:44 PM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

Nobody is saying that there's no tension on the wire, nobody is saying the tension doesn't change. Care to tell us all where that kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.

If I thought for a second that you would be capable of following the explanation, I'd give it, but given your apparent inability to comprehend fairly simple physics, I'm not going to bother. Your best bet would probably be some remedial classes of some kind to at least get you up to a high-school level of understanding.

More insults  lol .I'm only asking you to show me where the kinetic energy generated is being transferred to.  Here's an example so you can get your head around what a torque is & how it has a relationship with pivot point's
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Oh, nice, a video on gyroscopic precession! Well, that's close enough to being on-topic I suppose...

Ok, some pendulum basics, since it seems the bleedingly obvious needs to be pointed out: at it's starting position, a pendulum has no kinetic energy, but a certain amount of potential energy (depending on how high it is above it's "rest" position, and how much it weighs). As it swings down to the lowest point of it's swing, all this potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. As it is swinging up again to the other high point, the kinetic energy it had is converted back into potential energy, with a small amount having been lost along the way as heat and sound.

And a little more in-depth: the tension in the wire at the top of the swing is equal to the weight of the bob multiplied by the cosine of the angle the wire makes with the vertical (mg.cosθ). At the lowest point of the swing, the tension is equal to the weight of the bob, plus the mass of the bob multiplied by it's tangential velocity squared and divided by the length of the wire (mg+mv²/r).

The tension always acts along the wire, as does the centripetal force. There is no torque in the system.

Fantasy land.
What happen to the force of momentum. go on holidays did it ?

Like I said, waste of time. Momentum is not a force.

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 09, 2014, 04:54:47 AM

Quote from: ausGeoff on June 09, 2014, 02:33:54 AM

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 08, 2014, 10:26:40 PM

You have conveniently negated the angular momentum torque. It minuscule but its still there.

I'm not familiar with the term "angular momentum torque".  Could you please explain it?  As far as I knew, angular momentum produced no torque at all, as the momentum is 100% conserved within the closed system of the bob and its suspension string.

The torque is developed by the building & realising of tension in the suspension cable. Caused by gravitational resistance to the centripetal momentum. A resonating wave is produced  by the change in torque & tension on the suspension cable every swing .     

There is NO torque "developed" due the angular momentum of any body.  Tension in the suspension string is zero at the maximum point of the bob's swing—when its velocity is zero.  The tension force in the string is at its maximum when the bob is exactly vertical.  All applied forces on the bob are coplanar, and therefore are unable to produce ANY torque in the bob.

The force of gravity acting on the bob can be resolved into two components. One component is directed tangentially to the circular arc along which the bob moves.  The other component is directed perpendicular to the circular arc—IE along the string.  The perpendicular component of gravity is in the opposite direction of the tension force in the string. This tension force is always larger than or equal to the perpendicular component of gravity.  The tangential component is known as the restoring force, and is obviously responsible for the bob's displacement.

Total Garbage ,there's torque on the cable & pivot before the bob is even swung. For there not to be the suspending body holding the pivoting joint would have to be in direct line with the pivot joint its self. Unless your hanging it from an imagery stationary sky hook, then non existence of torque in the suspending cable is a nonsense. If we placed the cable in a stretching device & proceeded to stretch the cable it would stretch uniformed to its molecule structured chemical composition & formation of  bonds. This known fact, then tells us that any energy  change at one end will be transferred in accordance to the other end of the cable & then that will follow on as well to the structural support holding the pivot joint,thats  including the support base of the structure support as well. Unless you can guarantee absolutely that no variation is taking place what so ever during swing of bob. Then the prospect of any pendulum in the real world, swinging back & forth maintaining trajectory is Nonsense. Its only a theoretical  paper fantasy. Its not what happens in reality.               

I'd like to see this pendulum be tested in an evacuated chamber.

The pendulum would act exactly as it does in the earth's atmosphere.  Even a (theoretical) total vacuum wouldn't affect its mechanics—apart from the lack of air resistance increasing its amplitude and periodicity slightly.

Total Garbage, there's torque on the cable & pivot before the bob is even swung.

Nope.  An unrestrained stationary body exhibits zero torque.  Scientific fact.

For there not to be the suspending body holding the pivoting joint would have to be in direct line with the pivot joint its self. Unless your hanging it from an imagery stationary sky hook, then non existence of torque in the suspending cable is a nonsense. If we placed the cable in a stretching device & proceeded to stretch the cable it would stretch uniformed to its molecule structured chemical composition & formation of  bonds. This known fact, then tells us that any energy  change at one end will be transferred in accordance to the other end of the cable & then that will follow on as well to the structural support holding the pivot joint, that's  including the support base of the structure support as well. Unless you can guarantee absolutely that no variation is taking place what so ever during swing of bob. Then the prospect of any pendulum in the real world, swinging back & forth maintaining trajectory is Nonsense. Its only a theoretical  paper fantasy. Its not what happens in reality.

There's so much pseudo-scientific misinformation in this lot Charles I can't even begin to address it.    Sorry.

He's also completely oblivious to the fact that you can apply a torque to the cable or the suspension point and this does not affect the swinging of the pendulum. I have tried this myself with a plumb bob on a string. The bob will happily spin while continuing to swing straight back and forth. Torque on the cable does not cause precession, charles. So even if your mystery torque caused by tension were real (which it isn't) it would not account for the action of the Foucault pendulum.

    Looks like the bloke that sat on his balls and rectum has taken FE debating technique to the limit. Just deny anything that proves Fe is bull. Use big words that sound right, in some home brew fairy tale. Get a red herring going any chance. Bring no evidence to the table.  Tell the same bullshit story until people think I heard that before so there must be some truth in it. And then forget that more than 3 people debating is a mass debate!!.
    Foucault also invented the gyroscope it does not swing back and forth but follows the earths rotation so all this bullshit about torque and kinetic energy is just piss in the wind. A ring laser gyroscope cant be affected by either torque or kinetic energy. 
   MGH = 1/2 MV*2   

Maybe he has me on ignore, can someone ask him why the total swing time of an unassisted pendulum changes with latitude?

If his torque theory had any truth to it, this wouldn't be the case.  I mean unless there's magic involved, this pretty much renders his arguments completely meaningless.

Maybe he has me on ignore, can someone ask him why the total swing time of an unassisted pendulum changes with latitude?

If his torque theory had any truth to it, this wouldn't be the case.  I mean unless there's magic involved, this pretty much renders his arguments completely meaningless.

Are you mentally challenged ? a 137km off in that you tube vid is a 137km off. which makes it way off accurate. Your pendulum is reliant on the structure holding the pivot perpendicular the whole time. The earth under it remaining perpendicular the whole time. The smallest of shift in centres during bob motion & you will get rotation occur. Its obvious you have never had to machine anything to extreme tolerances.             

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 10, 2014, 04:33:40 PM

Total Garbage, there's torque on the cable & pivot before the bob is even swung.

Nope.  An unrestrained stationary body exhibits zero torque.  Scientific fact.

Quote

For there not to be the suspending body holding the pivoting joint would have to be in direct line with the pivot joint its self. Unless your hanging it from an imagery stationary sky hook, then non existence of torque in the suspending cable is a nonsense. If we placed the cable in a stretching device & proceeded to stretch the cable it would stretch uniformed to its molecule structured chemical composition & formation of  bonds. This known fact, then tells us that any energy  change at one end will be transferred in accordance to the other end of the cable & then that will follow on as well to the structural support holding the pivot joint, that's  including the support base of the structure support as well. Unless you can guarantee absolutely that no variation is taking place what so ever during swing of bob. Then the prospect of any pendulum in the real world, swinging back & forth maintaining trajectory is Nonsense. Its only a theoretical  paper fantasy. Its not what happens in reality.

There's so much pseudo-scientific misinformation in this lot Charles I can't even begin to address it.    Sorry.

Its not unrestrained ya dumb ass its hanging. 

Quote from: evildylan on June 10, 2014, 06:12:25 PM

Maybe he has me on ignore, can someone ask him why the total swing time of an unassisted pendulum changes with latitude?

If his torque theory had any truth to it, this wouldn't be the case.  I mean unless there's magic involved, this pretty much renders his arguments completely meaningless.

Are you mentally challenged ? a 137km off in that you tube vid is a 137km off. which makes it way off accurate. Your pendulum is reliant on the structure holding the pivot perpendicular the whole time. The earth under it remaining perpendicular the whole time. The smallest of shift in centres during bob motion & you will get rotation occur. Its obvious you have never had to machine anything to extreme tolerances.           

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

No wonder you keep dodging the question, you don't even understand your own ideas.

I've figured out what Charles is referring to with his assertion of "torque" being induced in the bob and its supporting string.  He's claiming that the suspension point, which is (possibly) resistant to free axial motion, applies a negative torquing force to the string (and hence the bob).

I'd like to offer this easy solution to that alleged difficulty;  the frictionless magnetic bearing...



This allows the suspension point of the string to rotate without any induced negative torque.  (Note that this is a very simplified illustration.)   The axial and radial direction are represented by z-axis and r-axis respectively. The magnetization direction of the magnets is shown as black arrows.

Quote from: evildylan on June 10, 2014, 06:12:25 PM

Maybe he has me on ignore, can someone ask him why the total swing time of an unassisted pendulum changes with latitude?

If his torque theory had any truth to it, this wouldn't be the case.  I mean unless there's magic involved, this pretty much renders his arguments completely meaningless.

Are you mentally challenged ? a 137km off in that you tube vid is a 137km off. which makes it way off accurate. Your pendulum is reliant on the structure holding the pivot perpendicular the whole time. The earth under it remaining perpendicular the whole time. The smallest of shift in centres during bob motion & you will get rotation occur. Its obvious you have never had to machine anything to extreme tolerances.             

Are you 14yr old with mental disabilities???

Quote from: charles bloomington on June 10, 2014, 08:19:34 PM

Quote from: evildylan on June 10, 2014, 06:12:25 PM

Maybe he has me on ignore, can someone ask him why the total swing time of an unassisted pendulum changes with latitude?

If his torque theory had any truth to it, this wouldn't be the case.  I mean unless there's magic involved, this pretty much renders his arguments completely meaningless.

Are you mentally challenged ? a 137km off in that you tube vid is a 137km off. which makes it way off accurate. Your pendulum is reliant on the structure holding the pivot perpendicular the whole time. The earth under it remaining perpendicular the whole time. The smallest of shift in centres during bob motion & you will get rotation occur. Its obvious you have never had to machine anything to extreme tolerances.             

Are you 14yr old with mental disabilities???

No just someone who lives in reality & not in  fantasy land. You have two problems to over come before making wild assertions. One is torque. extremely difficult if at all to negate .  The other is precise perpendicular the whole time the bob is in motion . Which is imposable to achieve in the real world. So suck it up you fraudsters.         

Charles, do you understand that torque in a pendulum is only relevant when the rod is a rigid body?  A Foucault pendulum uses wire or string as a rod, therefore torque is not really relevant.

Charles, do you understand that torque in a pendulum is only relevant when the rod is a rigid body?  A Foucault pendulum uses wire or string as a rod, therefore torque is not really relevant.

Torque doesn't even matter if it is rigid. Focault first got the idea when he noticed that the oscillation of a metal rod in a lathe didn't change direction even when the lathe was turning. Charles would know this if he read the link I posted about 3 pages ago.

You have two problems to over come before making wild assertions. One is torque. extremely difficult if at all to negate.  The other is precise perpendicular the whole time the bob is in motion. Which is imposable to achieve in the real world. So suck it up you fraudsters.       

I've blown your "torque" theory out of the water Charles—see my simple diagram (above) illustrating the 100% frictionless bearing.

I have no idea—nor I think do you—as to what you mean by "precise perpendicular the whole time".  Of course the bob isn't perpendicular to the tangent at the earth's surface.  Its angle—obviously—varies constantly except when it's at rest.  Also, there are no externally applied forces acting on the bob perpendicular to the arc of its swing.

—And can you please refrain from using repeated crude insults.  Consider this a warning.

LOL you haven't blown anything out of the water other then demonstrating your lack of understanding of physics. The swinging bob develops momentum ,which intern produces torque at the pivot point. That's not theory that's a fact.
What the RE brains trust cant seem to grasp ether . Is their very own  bullshit of the world rotating makes it even more ludicrous.That the starting point of the pivots perpendicular, to the  ground is being exactingly  maintained the whole time ,the pendulum is swinging. 
Like all great magic tricks, you have to convince the audience to believe something to be true when it isn't.
The key to the Foucault pendulum trick. Is to have the audience believe a pendulum will  swings back & forth & not rotate,  if it were not for the earth rotating. a pendulum will rotate regardless. It has to do with torque developed & How far off the pivot point,starting point shifts off perpendicular,when the bob is in motion.