South Africa

Quote from: Rayzor on March 19, 2018, 02:36:32 AM

It doesn't support your conclusions.

But it does support my data. We are using the same source material after all.

I haven't made conclusions merely posted this.

Quote from: hard data

1.6% of Americans in total owned slaves.
31% of Americans in confederate states owned slaves.
40% of Jewish Americans owned slaves.

The fact is Jewish Americans were overrepresented in the slave trade.

One source is myjewishlearning.com that sure sounds like a biased anti-semitic source to me.

One source is myjewishlearning.com that sure sounds like a biased anti-semitic source to me.

Link?

The citations are written at the bottom of the picture. Type them into your browser.

The citations are written at the bottom of the picture. Type them into your browser.

You type it, it's too small I can't read it.

I'll hold your hand then. My god man, sometimes it's like you can't use a computer.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-african-slave-trade/

Jacob Rader Marcus, a historian and Reform rabbi, wrote in his four-volume history of Americans Jews that over 75 percent of Jewish families in Charleston, South Carolina; Richmond, Virginia; and Savannah, Georgia, owned slaves, and nearly 40 percent of Jewish households across the country did.

Honestly.

I'll hold your hand then. My god man, sometimes it's like you can't use a computer.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-african-slave-trade/

Quote

Jacob Rader Marcus, a historian and Reform rabbi, wrote in his four-volume history of Americans Jews that over 75 percent of Jewish families in Charleston, South Carolina; Richmond, Virginia; and Savannah, Georgia, owned slaves, and nearly 40 percent of Jewish households across the country did.

Honestly.

Really?


Anyway.  You screwed up again.

Jews acted much like other white Charlestonians, including owning slaves. Jewish auctioneers like Abraham Mendes Seixas sold slaves along with other commodities. According to one study, 83% of Jewish households in Charleston owned at least one slave; this figure was slightly lower than the 87% of all white households in the city that owned slaves.

So Jews were actually less likely to own slaves that others.

The other sources cite the same data it's inconsequential, I have read Rader Marcus' book so I knew the 40% number is accurate.

In Charleston Jewish Americans were under-represented. I'll pay that, not gonna argue with hard data and look like a moron.

Lol.

However in total in America it is 40% of Jewish Americans that owned slaves and 1.6% of All Americans.

If you want to go by the confederate states then on average it is around 75% of Jewish Americans that owned slaves and around 31% of all Americans.

Source.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-african-slave-trade/

Just using the numbers.

A=40% B=1.6%
A=75% B=31%

40 > 1.6 therefore A > B
75 > 31 therefore A > B

Therefore A > B

Group A is over represented in this case.

I have read Rader Marcus' book so I knew the 40% number is accurate.

Cough...   prove it.

40% is accurate whether I have read the books or not. Your opinion means little to me.

I've said this to you enough now but you'd be surprised what I've read. Well, full disclosure I often wear earphones at work and listen to Audiobooks so some of it isn't "read" in a strict sense.

Anyway this is what you are trying to avoid engaging.

In Charleston Jewish Americans were under-represented. I'll pay that, not gonna argue with hard data and look like a moron.

Lol.

However in total in America it is 40% of Jewish Americans that owned slaves and 1.6% of All Americans.

If you want to go by the confederate states then on average it is around 75% of Jewish Americans that owned slaves and around 31% of all Americans.

Source.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-african-slave-trade/

40% is accurate whether I have read the books or not. Your opinion means little to me.

I've said this to you enough now but you'd be surprised what I've read. Well, full disclosure I often wear earphones at work and listen to Audiobooks so some of it isn't "read" in a strict sense.

Anyway this is what you are trying to avoid engaging.

Quote from: disputeone on March 19, 2018, 03:24:05 AM

In Charleston Jewish Americans were under-represented. I'll pay that, not gonna argue with hard data and look like a moron.

Lol.

However in total in America it is 40% of Jewish Americans that owned slaves and 1.6% of All Americans.

If you want to go by the confederate states then on average it is around 75% of Jewish Americans that owned slaves and around 31% of all Americans.

Source.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-african-slave-trade/

Did you even bother to read your own source,  which directly contradicts your conclusions.

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?


Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”

What’s the origin of the Jewish domination claim?


The claim of Jewish domination first came to wide attention with the Nation of Islam’s 1991 book, The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, Volume One. (Two other volumes would follow, addressing different aspects of black-Jewish relations.) The heavily footnoted and seemingly scholarly book, which lists no individual author and was self-published by the Nation of Islam, purports to present “irrefutable evidence” that Jews owned slaves “disproportionately more than any other ethnic or religious group in New World history.” The book makes a point of basing its findings on Jewish sources, including Encyclopaedia Judaica and multiple works by Marcus, though it includes no data on non-Jewish slave owners and traders from which to establish whether the Jewish role was in fact disproportionate. It also routinely ignores claims from the Jewish sources it relies on that undermine its thesis. (Marcus, for example, asserts that Jews “were always on the periphery” of the slave trade and that “sales of all Jewish traders lumped together did not equal that of the one Gentile firm dominant in the business” — an observation The Secret Relationship ignores.)

Nonetheless, the notion of Jewish domination of slaving was embraced by, among others, David Duke, who has promoted it on Twitter and on his website, and by the City College of New York professor Leonard Jeffries, whose 1991 speech echoing the claim of Jewish domination provoked a public controversy that led to his ouster as chair of the college’s black studies department. (A federal judge later reinstated him.) Tony Martin, a tenured professor of Africana Studies at Wellesley College drew criticism in 1993 for assigning The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews in his courses. Soon after, Martin published a book entitled The Jewish Onslaught: Despatches from the Wellesley Battlefront. Although the book was condemned by Wellesley’s president and many of Martin’s colleagues, Martin remained on the faculty until his retirement in 2007.

More recently, Jackie Walker, a British activist and major supporter of Labor Party leader Jeremy Corbyn, drew criticism in 2016 for claiming in a Facebook post that Jews were the “chief financiers” of the African slave trade. Walker, who also made other public comments offensive to Jews, was briefly suspended from the party because of her claim, but remained unapologetic and was reinstated within a month. (She was later suspended again for publicly bemoaning Jewish centrality in Holocaust commemorations.)

Busted for failing to read and comprehend. 

The memes quite literally write themselves.

For those playing along at home, one of us is using hard data, the other is using emotive language.

Can you tell who is using what?

For bonus points is hard data more credible than emotive language?

It's fine not to play if it upsets you.

Also this.

Just using the numbers.

A=40% B=1.6%
A=75% B=31%

40 > 1.6 therefore A > B
75 > 31 therefore A > B

Therefore A > B

Group A is over represented in this case.

The memes quite literally write themselves.

Thank god for that,  I thought an crazed idiot was writing them.

Oh,  and you got busted again for not reading and comprehending your own sources.   LOL

It just went on to imply anyone that claimed Jews were over-represented in the slave trade is an anti semite, yawn.

That works on most people but not me.

https://writingexplained.org/grammar-dictionary/emotive-language

You can't debunk the data.

Just using the numbers.

A=40% B=1.6%
A=75% B=31%

40 > 1.6 therefore A > B
75 > 31 therefore A > B

Therefore A > B

Group A is over represented in this case.

Show us where I am wrong and why
B > A in this situation.

I'm sure you can, you seem confident.

It just went on to imply anyone that claimed Jews were over-represented in the slave trade is an anti semite, yawn.

That works on most people but not me.

https://writingexplained.org/grammar-dictionary/emotive-language

You can't debunk the data.

Quote from: disputeone on March 19, 2018, 03:29:59 AM

Just using the numbers.

A=40% B=1.6%
A=75% B=31%

40 > 1.6 therefore A > B
75 > 31 therefore A > B

Therefore A > B

Group A is over represented in this case.

Show us where I am wrong and why
B > A in this situation.

I'm sure you can, you seem confident.

The 1.6% doesn't refer to households the 40% does, and in any case the Jews didn't dominate the slave trade,  your own source debunks that notion.

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?

Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”

10 is a bigger number than 5

Yes it is, you're so close.

https://writingexplained.org/grammar-dictionary/emotive-language

http://www.objectivity.com/hard-data-vs-soft-data/

40% > 1.6%
75% > 31%

When you have debunked that please debunk this, if you can debunk the first claim then this one will be easy.

2+2=4

https://writingexplained.org/grammar-dictionary/emotive-language

http://www.objectivity.com/hard-data-vs-soft-data/

40% > 1.6%
75% > 31%

When you have debunked that please debunk this, if you can debunk the first claim then this one will be easy.

2+2=4

Ok,  lets' play your game,  is 120 out of 45,000 a significant majority?    Given your outstanding arithmetic ability,  it should be easy.

Yes or No.

What about 20 out of 12,000?   

Yes or No.

10 is a bigger number than 5.

No it's not a significant majority.

My claim is that Jewish Americans were over represented in the slave trade.

Here is my evidence.

40% > 1.6%
75% > 31%
2+2=4

You need to show this to be incorrect.

One more time.

If group A of 10 people have 5 people profiting off slavery.

And group B of 100 000 have 10 people profiting off slavery.

Is it fair to say that group B was over represented because 10 is a larger number than 5?

Or would we compare 50% to 0.001%?

Silly me, 10 is a bigger number than 5, lol, damn math challenged anti-semites...

Wait...

No it's not a significant majority.

My claim is that Jewish Americans were over represented in the slave trade.

Here is my evidence.  I'm a numerically challenged moron.

40%  of jewish families is not > 1.6% of all Americans

You need to show this to be incorrect.  Duh... it is incorrect.

FTFY

Ok lets be very, very generous and say 10 family members lived in each home on average. I would wager it would be only the man of the house who owned slaves in any case.

40% > 16%
75% > 31%
2+2=4

And...

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?

Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”

Nice appeal to emotion, however.

Ok lets be very, very generous and say 10 family members lived in each home on average. I would wager it would be only the man of the house who owned slaves in any case.

40% > 16%
75% > 31%
2+2=4

Furthermore....
And...

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?

Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”

Yes numerically Jews didn't own a majority of slaves. Percentage wise they were over represented.

See.
40% > 16%
75% > 31%
2+2=4

If group A of 10 people have 5 people profiting off slavery.

And group B of 100 000 have 10 people profiting off slavery.

Is it fair to say that group B was over represented because 10 is a larger number than 5?

Or would we compare 50% to 0.001%?

Silly me, 10 is a bigger number than 5, lol, damn math challenged anti-semites...

Wait...

This has you so worked up lol.

Meanwhile, in the real world away from the trolls.

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?

Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”

Yes numerically Jews didn't own a majority of slaves. Percentage wise they were over represented.

People will see how dumb you are playing. Even if they are too scared to admit it.

Yes numerically Jews didn't own a majority of slaves. Percentage wise they were over represented.

Not true.   

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?

Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”

You have conclusively proven that numerically Jewish Americans didn't own a majoriry of slaves.

I will now conclusively prove they were over-represented in slave ownership percentage wise.

See.
40% > 16%
75% > 31%
2+2=4

We're done now.

We're done now.

Yes you are.

Did Jews dominate the slave trade?

Not according to scholars that have closely examined the question. Several studies of the Jewish role in the slave trade were conducted in the 1990s. One of them, by John Jay’s Faber, compared available data on Jewish slave ownership and trading activity in British territories in the 18th century to that of the wider population. Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations  and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them.

Other studies, by Harold Brackman and Saul Friedman, reached similar conclusions. In a 1994 article in the New York Review of Books, David Brion Davis, an emeritus professor of history at Yale University and author of an award-winning trilogy of books about slavery, noted that Jews were one of countless religious and ethnic groups around the world to participate in the slave trade:

The participants in the Atlantic slave system included Arabs, Berbers, scores of African ethnic groups, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch, Jews, Germans, Swedes, French, English, Danes, white Americans, Native Americans, and even thousands of New World blacks who had been emancipated or were descended from freed slaves but who then became slaveholding farmers or planters themselves.
Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves.”