South Africa

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Tutsi and Hutu people.  Or the Nazis and the Slavs. 

Racism will find a way.

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Nazis

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:26:29 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Nazis

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Really?  One group of white people feels they should exterminate a different group of white people who are barely distinguishable?

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:31:55 AM

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:26:29 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Nazis

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Really?  One group of white people feels they should exterminate a different group of white people who are barely distinguishable?

I'm not sure, but if antisemitism was the same as racism, why would they have invented the word antisemitism in the first place? But yeah, with jews it's a bit a special case, so I'm quite sure you won't find that in africa.

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:41:12 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:31:55 AM

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:26:29 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Nazis

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Really?  One group of white people feels they should exterminate a different group of white people who are barely distinguishable?

I'm not sure, but if antisemitism was the same as racism, why would they have invented the word antisemitism in the first place? But yeah, with jews it's a bit a special case, so I'm quite sure you won't find that in africa.

They also hated the Slavs on a racial basis

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:48:11 AM

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:41:12 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:31:55 AM

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:26:29 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Nazis

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Really?  One group of white people feels they should exterminate a different group of white people who are barely distinguishable?

I'm not sure, but if antisemitism was the same as racism, why would they have invented the word antisemitism in the first place? But yeah, with jews it's a bit a special case, so I'm quite sure you won't find that in africa.

They also hated the Slavs on a racial basis

I don't think slav is a race. The nazis basically hated everyone that wasn't a german plus some germans, too.

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

I didn't say it ever wasn't in recent history, just that it still is.

I don't think slav is a race.

The nazis very much thought they were, so this is what counts.   Hitler considered the slavic people to be Untermenschen incapable of ruling themselves and controlled by the jews.  The plan was to directly kill or starve or sterilize  the majority of the "slavic race" and turn the rest into slaves.  Eventually, like the Jews, they would be wiped from the earth, to ensure that their tainted blood wouldn't infect the "master race" . See the Generalplan Ost.

The nazis basically hated everyone that wasn't a german plus some germans, too.

They hated plenty of Germans, but actually respected plenty of other countries - if they were of the "correct" race.  Most of Northern Europe for example.  I don't think you really grasp how much this was about race to Hitler.

The nazis very much thought they were, so this is what counts.

Yeah I disagree, I don't think what nazis think matters in any case.

Apparently Greeks were sort of Hitler approved, because the nazis thought we had something to do with the ancient ones (joke's on him, we don't).

Apparently Greeks were sort of Hitler approved, because the nazis thought we had something to do with the ancient ones (joke's on him, we don't).

Yeah, modern greeks are a joke (not a funny one though).

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 12, 2018, 12:45:09 PM

The nazis very much thought they were, so this is what counts.

Yeah I disagree, I don't think what nazis think matters in any case.

You would be wrong then.  The Western Front was a war.  The Eastern Front was genocide.

But the point I was trying to make is that we're a species prone to tribalism.  Racism is just one manifestation of that.  We'll always find a way to identify "us" and "them".

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 12, 2018, 12:45:09 PM

The nazis very much thought they were, so this is what counts.

Yeah I disagree, I don't think what nazis think matters in any case.

If racism is discrimination based on perceived racial identities, and nazis discriminated against slavics and jews because they believed those people belonged to an inferior race, then how were nazis not racists?

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 12:11:32 PM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:48:11 AM

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:41:12 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:31:55 AM

Quote from: crutonius on March 12, 2018, 11:26:29 AM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 11:24:33 AM

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

Technically, before there were white people/different races in africa it would have been hard for them to be racist.

Tell that to the Nazis

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Really?  One group of white people feels they should exterminate a different group of white people who are barely distinguishable?

I'm not sure, but if antisemitism was the same as racism, why would they have invented the word antisemitism in the first place? But yeah, with jews it's a bit a special case, so I'm quite sure you won't find that in africa.

They also hated the Slavs on a racial basis

I don't think slav is a race. The nazis basically hated everyone that wasn't a german plus some germans, too.

The nazis certainly considered it a race.

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 01:06:56 PM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 12, 2018, 12:45:09 PM

The nazis very much thought they were, so this is what counts.

Yeah I disagree, I don't think what nazis think matters in any case.

If racism is discrimination based on perceived racial identities, and nazis discriminated against slavics and jews because they believed those people belonged to an inferior race, then how were nazis not racists?

If I think your mom is her own race and also I think she's ugly as hell, am I a racist? Or just a stupid retard?

Anway, since apparently everyone missed it, I guess my point here wasn't quite as obvious as I thought it to be:

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Point was, africans back in the days didn't know any other race so they couldn't be racist. (Disliking a nearby tribe cannot really be considered as racist, since it's not two races.)

And the nazi comparison doesn't work because the nazis knew and hated other races which makes it a completely different matter.

Anway, since apparently everyone missed it, I guess my point here wasn't quite as obvious as I thought it to be:

Quote from: User324

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Point was, africans back in the days didn't know any other race so they couldn't be racist. (Disliking a nearby tribe cannot really be considered as racist, since it's not two races.)

And the nazi comparison doesn't work because the nazis knew and hated other races which makes it a completely different matter.

Africans didn't know other races so they can't be racists.  Nazis did know them and hated them so they can't be racists?
Sorry I'm really not following you.
I think scientists say there is no real scientific basis for race at all so I guess you could say technically there is no such thing as racism.
But hating, hurting, killing, and descriminating against people buy category is certainly a thing.
I think it's more important what the people involved think, in terms of race.

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 02:24:25 PM

Anway, since apparently everyone missed it, I guess my point here wasn't quite as obvious as I thought it to be:

Quote from: User324

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Point was, africans back in the days didn't know any other race so they couldn't be racist. (Disliking a nearby tribe cannot really be considered as racist, since it's not two races.)

And the nazi comparison doesn't work because the nazis knew and hated other races which makes it a completely different matter.

Africans didn't know other races so they can't be racists.  Nazis did know them and hated them so they can't be racists?
Sorry I'm really not following you.
I think scientists say there is no real scientific basis for race at all so I guess you could say technically there is no such thing as racism.
But hating, hurting, killing, and descriminating against people buy category is certainly a thing.
I think it's more important what the people involved think, in terms of race.

I think for most people, when talking about race, they are using the term as if it is synonymous with ethnicity

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 02:46:30 PM

Quote from: User324 on March 12, 2018, 02:24:25 PM

Anway, since apparently everyone missed it, I guess my point here wasn't quite as obvious as I thought it to be:

Quote from: User324

I don't think this comparison works with nazis lol.

Point was, africans back in the days didn't know any other race so they couldn't be racist. (Disliking a nearby tribe cannot really be considered as racist, since it's not two races.)

And the nazi comparison doesn't work because the nazis knew and hated other races which makes it a completely different matter.

Africans didn't know other races so they can't be racists.  Nazis did know them and hated them so they can't be racists?
Sorry I'm really not following you.
I think scientists say there is no real scientific basis for race at all so I guess you could say technically there is no such thing as racism.
But hating, hurting, killing, and descriminating against people buy category is certainly a thing.
I think it's more important what the people involved think, in terms of race.

I think for most people, when talking about race, they are using the term as if it is synonymous with ethnicity

I agree.  I thinks that's exactly what it is.

Quote from: Badxtoss on March 12, 2018, 11:20:39 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Official on February 21, 2018, 02:52:24 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 21, 2018, 02:31:57 PM

You have Presidents from Nelson Mandela to now singing as if its an anthem for the killing of running 'boer' with a machine gun. Now here is an interesting thing. Boer is a derogatory term for white South African in the same way a nigger is derogatory.

Honestly these things are not really surprising for a country that got out of apartheid a couple of decades back. What really sucks is that it seems like they've got their own populist leaders who are taking advantage of and fueling the rage against the Boers, which is making things worse. So yeah, SA is a pretty racist country right now. Hopefully things will get better over time.

When was it not a racist country?

I didn't say it ever wasn't in recent history, just that it still is.

When you said it's a pretty racist country right now, I took that to mean as opposed to some other time.

I think for most people, when talking about race, they are using the term as if it is synonymous with ethnicity

That's the way racism works,  it's more akin to perception of difference than purely racial genetics.   The same attitudes of discrimination can be applied across the whole spectrum.  We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

Tribalism.

Quote from: Shifter on March 12, 2018, 03:49:58 PM

I think for most people, when talking about race, they are using the term as if it is synonymous with ethnicity

That's the way racism works,  it's more akin to perception of difference than purely racial genetics.   The same attitudes of discrimination can be applied across the whole spectrum.  We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

Tribalism.

That makes sense.

We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

We attach to and identify with the people who raise us. Looks don't matter. Genetics matter even less.

Quote from: Rayzor on March 12, 2018, 05:17:18 PM

We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

We attach to and identify with the people who raise us. Looks don't matter. Genetics matter even less.

Actually looks do matter when it comes to tribalism,  Often it's looks that become a point of difference,  even down to style of clothes and what color your shoelaces are. 

I'm aware that I'm expanding the discussion beyond the original black vs white question,  but I think it runs deeper than just color difference,  it applies more or less to the discrimination based on perception of kinds of differences.  But to varying degrees.

if antisemitism was the same as racism, why would they have invented the word antisemitism in the first place?

Oho.

We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

That's true, can't argue against that. That's why we're seeing such discrimination in South Africa currently.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on March 12, 2018, 05:39:15 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 12, 2018, 05:17:18 PM

We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

We attach to and identify with the people who raise us. Looks don't matter. Genetics matter even less.

Actually looks do matter when it comes to tribalism,  Often it's looks that become a point of difference,  even down to style of clothes and what color your shoelaces are. 

I'm aware that I'm expanding the discussion beyond the original black vs white question,  but I think it runs deeper than just color difference,  it applies more or less to the discrimination based on perception of kinds of differences.  But to varying degrees.

I read about a study, many years ago, about the idea that "they" all look the same to me.  Turns out, it's true.  Whatever race/ethnicity, you are raised with you can see all the subtle differences in faces etc.  but other races are not as easy to see the differences in.

Quote from: Rayzor on March 12, 2018, 05:50:06 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on March 12, 2018, 05:39:15 PM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 12, 2018, 05:17:18 PM

We are programmed genetically to preferentially favor people who are most like us,  we are programmed protect our closest genetic relatives. 

We attach to and identify with the people who raise us. Looks don't matter. Genetics matter even less.

Actually looks do matter when it comes to tribalism,  Often it's looks that become a point of difference,  even down to style of clothes and what color your shoelaces are. 

I'm aware that I'm expanding the discussion beyond the original black vs white question,  but I think it runs deeper than just color difference,  it applies more or less to the discrimination based on perception of kinds of differences.  But to varying degrees.

I read about a study, many years ago, about the idea that "they" all look the same to me.  Turns out, it's true.  Whatever race/ethnicity, you are raised with you can see all the subtle differences in faces etc.  but other races are not as easy to see the differences in.

I'm getting to the point where I can't tell teenagers apart. I might be racist against teenagers.

Whatever race/ethnicity, you are raised with you can see all the subtle differences in faces etc.  but other races are not as easy to see the differences in.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/the-underlying-bias-of-facial-recognition-systems/476991/

It's actually more about how our cameras work on reflected light.