Red Bull Stratos

Quote from: Puttah on May 21, 2013, 10:18:28 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:11:39 AM

but it's actually reinforcing my stance on it all being exactly what I thought it was. FAKE!

You knew full well that you were never going to accept that it wasn't fake, even if the answer to every query you had made perfect sense.

It takes a lot more than big explanations to sway me, you should know this by now. You see, the answers appear nice and tidy for explanations and I give you and others credit for that but it's fanciful and relies on far too much near knuckle happenings, which somehow seem to work, time and time and time again, as if going to space was as easy as making a cup of tea and the same goes for coming back from space.

I'll stick my neck out here and say that, anyone reading all of this, more people will find it too fanciful to work than those that believe it's genuine.

If your neck were on the chopping block for that statement,  you'd be a foot shorter.  The space agencies make it look easy in much the same way a professional of any sort makes their craft look easy.   That practice at it and continue to try to perfect it.   Space travel doesn't happen on a whim,  they plan the trips extensively.  Otherwise you'd see flights daily or weekly if not monthly which transport humans.

And space travel really is fanciful.   What inspires more awe than traveling outside of the habitat of the entirety of the human race?   Those on board the ISS a literally the most isolated people at this moment.

Sceptimatic. I made you a diagram with a full explanation. Even I make mistakes sometimes, where I said previously the earth would not be scorched, I now came across two pictures in which you do see a scorched earth/grass. However I also had seen pictures of unburnt grass/earth. However I have seen pictures where the Soyuz has landed in snow. The pictures which do not show snow and no burnt grass/earth could tell you the temperature at that particular landing, when the picture was taken, was cold. Not everytime when it is freezing, there has to be snow.

Anyway, here is a simplified diagram of the force acting on the spacecraft. The forces act on every part of the soyuz, even the ropes, even the parachute. It would take a lot of work to draw all the forces. The simplified version shows you the forces as they act on the entire spacecraft and parachute.

http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img849/3095/soyuz.jpg&sa=0

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 21, 2013, 10:39:08 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:31:24 AM

Quote from: Puttah on May 21, 2013, 10:18:28 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:11:39 AM

but it's actually reinforcing my stance on it all being exactly what I thought it was. FAKE!

You knew full well that you were never going to accept that it wasn't fake, even if the answer to every query you had made perfect sense.

It takes a lot more than big explanations to sway me, you should know this by now. You see, the answers appear nice and tidy for explanations and I give you and others credit for that but it's fanciful and relies on far too much near knuckle happenings, which somehow seem to work, time and time and time again, as if going to space was as easy as making a cup of tea and the same goes for coming back from space.

I'll stick my neck out here and say that, anyone reading all of this, more people will find it too fanciful to work than those that believe it's genuine.

If your neck were on the chopping block for that statement,  you'd be a foot shorter.  The space agencies make it look easy in much the same way a professional of any sort makes their craft look easy.   That practice at it and continue to try to perfect it.   Space travel doesn't happen on a whim,  they plan the trips extensively.  Otherwise you'd see flights daily or weekly if not monthly which transport humans.

And space travel really is fanciful.   What inspires more awe than traveling outside of the habitat of the entirety of the human race?   Those on board the ISS a literally the most isolated people at this moment.

Correct. Those on board the ISS will feel isolated. I don't think I would enjoy being under water inside a capsule for days at a time but at least I'd have the comfort of knowing that rescue divers will be close by in case anything goes wrong.

Which is why it was the crew that did the space walk last week to fix the ammonia leak for the solar panels right?   Because they were submerged with their neutral buoyancy tools and suits which also appeared to have almost no resistance from the water and them acting on their motions.

Correct. Those on board the ISS will feel isolated. I don't think I would enjoy being under water inside a capsule for days at a time but at least I'd have the comfort of knowing that rescue divers will be close by in case anything goes wrong.

That is correct. Therefore astronauts need to have lots of competences. They go through rigorous selection and training. Only the very best may go into space. In case there is a disaster onboard the ISS, there are always Soyuz capsules to retreat to. If a rapid decompression were to occur, there is only very little time to get yourself to safety. If it happens at a blow, the astronauts will be killed instantly. There is always imminent threat. Luckily they take all kinds of measurments to reduce the risk and if risks start to get bigger, they take precautions. When one of my fellow country-man went up into space, he experienced this.

There was threat of a piece of debris hitting the ISS. They closed all hatches inside the ISS and retreated to safety. Only when the threat was no longer evident, the ISS resumed to normal operations.

And one more story about an astronaut who had a kind of jetpack, without any lines connecting him with the space shuttle. He had the idea to spin around, but he said that when he got out, he did not dare to do so and he kept an eye on the space shuttle the entire time.

Oh by the way, talking about ocean floors. Did you know more people went up in space then there went down to the ocean floor? You don't dispute the fact there is an ocean floor, right? Yet you have no way of checking there is an ocean floor at great depths. You can however see the ISS pass by in space and if you have a telescope or go to an observatory, you are able to even see it in detail

This picture is intriguing, when you consider the actual fireball coming from the capsule. I mean come on.



Now where is the shadow of the parachute?

You mean in terms of height above the ground? The soyuz capsule is about 2m. Looks like another capsule could fit underneath, so I guess 2m.

Now where is the shadow of the parachute?

The shadows can be seen, the shadow of the parachute is off the image...can't be seen. Here I pointed out the shadows for you.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/shadowsu.jpg/

Would anyone like to explain why there is a shadow of the parachute in one picture and none in the other please.

These are pictures of two different landings.

As you can see the ground and the lighting is different too...I will try to locate the sources. I got one...
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110523-soyuz-jc-03.photoblog900.jpg

With the link to the website which is hosting it
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/05/24/6705280-soyuz-capsule-landed-safely-in-kazakhstan?lite

This was the landing on the 24th of May 2011...

In the meantime I will try to find the other picture...

And here is the other picture.

http://impendingtech.com/here/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/4ff03ccae5b10.preview-620.jpg

This is the full source.
http://impendingtech.com/soyuz-spacecraft-lands-safely-in-kazakhstan/4ff03ccae5b10-preview-620/

That picture is from the landing on the 1st of July 2012.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 21, 2013, 11:03:10 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:55:36 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on May 21, 2013, 10:39:08 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:31:24 AM

Quote from: Puttah on May 21, 2013, 10:18:28 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:11:39 AM

but it's actually reinforcing my stance on it all being exactly what I thought it was. FAKE!

You knew full well that you were never going to accept that it wasn't fake, even if the answer to every query you had made perfect sense.

It takes a lot more than big explanations to sway me, you should know this by now. You see, the answers appear nice and tidy for explanations and I give you and others credit for that but it's fanciful and relies on far too much near knuckle happenings, which somehow seem to work, time and time and time again, as if going to space was as easy as making a cup of tea and the same goes for coming back from space.

I'll stick my neck out here and say that, anyone reading all of this, more people will find it too fanciful to work than those that believe it's genuine.

If your neck were on the chopping block for that statement,  you'd be a foot shorter.  The space agencies make it look easy in much the same way a professional of any sort makes their craft look easy.   That practice at it and continue to try to perfect it.   Space travel doesn't happen on a whim,  they plan the trips extensively.  Otherwise you'd see flights daily or weekly if not monthly which transport humans.

And space travel really is fanciful.   What inspires more awe than traveling outside of the habitat of the entirety of the human race?   Those on board the ISS a literally the most isolated people at this moment.

Correct. Those on board the ISS will feel isolated. I don't think I would enjoy being under water inside a capsule for days at a time but at least I'd have the comfort of knowing that rescue divers will be close by in case anything goes wrong.

Which is why it was the crew that did the space walk last week to fix the ammonia leak for the solar panels right?   Because they were submerged with their neutral buoyancy tools and suits which also appeared to have almost no resistance from the water and them acting on their motions.

The ammonia ruse was a great way to pull of a space walk and not having to worry about water bubbles. They can just says it's an ammonia leak.

Did you watch any of that feed?   I did And the movements of the astronauts and tools and the storage containers did not match what an underwater operation would look like.   The movement was too unrestrained.

Oh ok, 2 different pictures. Fair enough.

I wonder why they wrap them in blankets, whilst still in their expensive fight the cold space suits, especially after being mildly cooked on atmosphere mark 7 on re-entry. You would think they would say, " hold on Joe, I'm boiling hot here, leave the quilts out of it will you, it won't help us whilst wearing these space suits.

I also like how the helicopters and cars race to the scene, exactly on landing and somehow manage to set up a big Anderson type shelter tent and decide to set it up a decent distance from the capsule so it's harder for them to carry the astroliars lol
What's even funnier, is, the white coated doctor types are the ones carrying them, all the rest as just saying, "sod that for a game of astronauts."

Things to do on a soyuz re-entry.

1. observe it coming in.
2. Race to the scene in cars that are as fast as the helicopters.
3. Be there for them seconds after touchdown.
4. Drag then from space cone as if they were crippled.
5. Keep shouting to the tent builders to hurry it up, by using a loud speaker so they can hear you for the hundred metre distance where they set it up.

All in a days work for the soyuz crew. 

In a way they are crippled since they haven't used their leg muscles since they arrived.  I'd imagine the feeling of gravity would be quite a shock on their system after such a prolonged weightless trip.

Would anyone like to explain why there is a shadow of the parachute in one picture and none in the other please.

Can you not see the shadow in the second picture? It stretches to the left. You can clearly see the shadows of the cables, and that the shadow of the parachute itself is out of sight.

Oh ok, 2 different pictures. Fair enough.

I wonder why they wrap them in blankets, whilst still in their expensive fight the cold space suits, especially after being mildly cooked on atmosphere mark 7 on re-entry. You would think they would say, " hold on Joe, I'm boiling hot here, leave the quilts out of it will you, it won't help us whilst wearing these space suits.

Actually, the space suits have cooling systems. It's much more important than any heating system, since out in a space walk, they're completely isolated from anything, and vacuum is a very good insulator, therefore their suits don't freeze. In fact, they heat up very quickly, from light from the sun, and their own body temperature. The most important functions of a space suit are insulation, providing breathable air, and cooling.

Oh ok, 2 different pictures. Fair enough.

I wonder why they wrap them in blankets, whilst still in their expensive fight the cold space suits, especially after being mildly cooked on atmosphere mark 7 on re-entry. You would think they would say, " hold on Joe, I'm boiling hot here, leave the quilts out of it will you, it won't help us whilst wearing these space suits.

I also like how the helicopters and cars race to the scene, exactly on landing and somehow manage to set up a big Anderson type shelter tent and decide to set it up a decent distance from the capsule so it's harder for them to carry the astroliars lol
What's even funnier, is, the white coated doctor types are the ones carrying them, all the rest as just saying, "sod that for a game of astronauts."

Things to do on a soyuz re-entry.

1. observe it coming in.
2. Race to the scene in cars that are as fast as the helicopters.
3. Be there for them seconds after touchdown.
4. Drag then from space cone as if they were crippled.
5. Keep shouting to the tent builders to hurry it up, by using a loud speaker so they can hear you for the hundred metre distance where they set it up.

All in a days work for the soyuz crew. 

Well the heat is not felt by the astronauts, as that is what the heat shield is for. But the ride is bumpy and the astronauts transit from a weightlessness situation/environment to an environment they feel gravity again. Their bodies had adjusted to the weightlessness environment and their hearts do not pump so hard to squeeze all the blood up from their legs.

In gravity environment the blood is pulled down to their legs again. I do not know if you ever experienced it, but if you lay down on the floor for a while and you rapidly stand up, you may feel like fainting. Standing up for too long essentially does the same. Like happend to this poor fella. (See link at the bottom)

Astronauts make a more sudden transition and they may start to feel sick. Also they cannot really look outside, but they are in a bumpy ride. They just get a sort of motion sickness. Some astronauts can handle all of this quite well and they look quite fit when they get out. Others throw up and feel horrible sick. And also everything in between. The astronauts feel like they have a fever, they get headaches and that is why there is a whole team for them to take care of them. Some you will see wipe the astronaut's faces with a wet tissue. This is all to make them more comfortable.

The blankets in the seats are tradition, but as you may also know from whenever you had a fever and felt ill, you will feel like it is really cold. The blankets are to keep the astronauts warm. You will see that on wintery days you see the astronauts have different blankets then on a summer days when the temperatures are much higher.

And yes carrying the astronauts may seem odd, but it is all part of the Russian tradition.   

 #ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Royal Guard faints at the Buckingham Palace London !

You see, the answers appear nice and tidy for explanations...

Would you rather that we give you answers that weren't nice and tidy? 

Quote from: Lolflatdisc on May 21, 2013, 11:09:52 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 21, 2013, 10:55:36 AM

Correct. Those on board the ISS will feel isolated. I don't think I would enjoy being under water inside a capsule for days at a time but at least I'd have the comfort of knowing that rescue divers will be close by in case anything goes wrong.

That is correct. Therefore astronauts need to have lots of competences. They go through rigorous selection and training. Only the very best may go into space. In case there is a disaster onboard the ISS, there are always Soyuz capsules to retreat to. If a rapid decompression were to occur, there is only very little time to get yourself to safety. If it happens at a blow, the astronauts will be killed instantly. There is always imminent threat. Luckily they take all kinds of measurments to reduce the risk and if risks start to get bigger, they take precautions. When one of my fellow country-man went up into space, he experienced this.

There was threat of a piece of debris hitting the ISS. They closed all hatches inside the ISS and retreated to safety. Only when the threat was no longer evident, the ISS resumed to normal operations.

And one more story about an astronaut who had a kind of jetpack, without any lines connecting him with the space shuttle. He had the idea to spin around, but he said that when he got out, he did not dare to do so and he kept an eye on the space shuttle the entire time.

Oh by the way, talking about ocean floors. Did you know more people went up in space then there went down to the ocean floor? You don't dispute the fact there is an ocean floor, right? Yet you have no way of checking there is an ocean floor at great depths. You can however see the ISS pass by in space and if you have a telescope or go to an observatory, you are able to even see it in detail

Have you seen the ISS with a telescope and saw it's shape to be exactly what it appears like in pictures?

Yes, the contours were visible to me. Much like this picture http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4247/issjpg.jpg
And although to you it may seem blurry and you can't tell for sure it is a spacecraft it does tell me there is a spacecraft like object out there in space, which much ressembles the shape which you see on other pictures take from spacecraft near the ISS, like this one.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/1003/iss_sts130.jpg

Furthermore the fact that the ISS tracker and tools tells me that the ISS would be visible from my location and I saw an obect in the direction the trackers told me to look, which looks very similar to the better quality pictures I am confident that what I saw was a real space station and the photos on the internet are real. But inlike you I am not that skeptic. I was not born yet to see the Challenger explode myself, yet I am confident that these pictures and videos are genuine, because so many people did witness it. Also no one has ever stepped forward which proved to me that these were fake images.

For some strange reason the Soyuz capsule video has been terminated due to copyright something or another. You must have struck a nerve with them Scepti.

For some strange reason the Soyuz capsule video has been terminated due to copyright something or another. You must have struck a nerve with them Scepti.

Yeah, they need to go back and do a re-take and this time, they need to have the shadow in view, else it confuses scepti and we certainly don't want that.

Quote from: hoppy on May 21, 2013, 06:40:15 PM

For some strange reason the Soyuz capsule video has been terminated due to copyright something or another. You must have struck a nerve with them Scepti.

Yeah, they need to go back and do a re-take and this time, they need to have the shadow in view, else it confuses scepti and we certainly don't want that.

Don't worry, there will be a new one up by tomorrow morning which shows the parachute shadow and scorched grass.  On top of the astronauts having broken backs and such from the fall.

Quote from: Puttah on May 21, 2013, 08:34:27 PM

Quote from: hoppy on May 21, 2013, 06:40:15 PM

For some strange reason the Soyuz capsule video has been terminated due to copyright something or another. You must have struck a nerve with them Scepti.

Yeah, they need to go back and do a re-take and this time, they need to have the shadow in view, else it confuses scepti and we certainly don't want that.

Don't worry, there will be a new one up by tomorrow morning which shows the parachute shadow and scorched grass.  On top of the astronauts having broken backs and such from the fall.

They'll also be expected to receive no help whatsoever, and the tent shall be built right on top of the landing site.

Can you not see the shadow in the second picture? It stretches to the left. You can clearly see the shadows of the cables, and that the shadow of the parachute itself is out of sight.

Something you should know about scepti; he has absolutely zero image/video analytical abilities or understanding of how cameras work.  I have seen evidence of this in the past.  You and I and everyone else can plainly see that the sunlight is coming from two different directions, and that the ground isn't even the same, but not scepti. 

Well fella's, I appreciate all your explanations for this but in your heart of hearts, I think even you lot are now casting a little bit more doubt on this carry on, I would guess.
If you're not then fair enough but it's actually reinforcing my stance on it all being exactly what I thought it was. FAKE!

So basically nitpick every detail, asking questions that should be obvious, getting others to go to great lengths explaining these concepts and even making diagrams, only to basically say , "thanks for explaining, but it's all FAKE!"

Trolls everywhere would be proud.

Quote from: icanbeanything on May 21, 2013, 12:09:56 PM

Can you not see the shadow in the second picture? It stretches to the left. You can clearly see the shadows of the cables, and that the shadow of the parachute itself is out of sight.

Something you should know about scepti; he has absolutely zero image/video analytical abilities or understanding of how cameras work.  I have seen evidence of this in the past.  You and I and everyone else can plainly see that the sunlight is coming from two different directions, and that the ground isn't even the same, but not scepti. 

Yes, I can see there's little point in explaining something to him, he basically ignored my retro energy calculation. But it's okay, I didn't really post it for him, I did it for all the other potential readers who might bother with it.

Well, then don't feel offended when I say that you must have serious problems to think that mathematics is invalid and can be disregarded.

By the way... what you meant to say is that "I went through a lot of trouble to demonstrate that the grass wouldn't burn." When you demonstrate something, it means you show that it's true. And it wasn't any trouble at all, I did it all by myself in a few minutes... it actually took longer to write it down into the post.

Well, if you were smart, knew some physics and math, you'd know by yourself how those calculations work, and you'd understand. Math is not my subjective opinion.

Again, yes, what I showed is that something like that wouldn't scorch grass. The blast is way to short to heat up its surroundings. If it lasted a couple seconds, sure, it'd burn the hell out of the grass. But at 0.16 seconds, it just doesn't deliver enough heat. This is, essentially, what I precisely calculated, and you'd already know this if you hadn't slept in school during math classes.

Quote from: icanbeanything on May 22, 2013, 01:19:59 AM

Well, if you were smart, knew some physics and math, you'd know by yourself how those calculations work, and you'd understand. Math is not my subjective opinion.

Again, yes, what I showed is that something like that wouldn't scorch grass. The blast is way to short to heat up its surroundings. If it lasted a couple seconds, sure, it'd burn the hell out of the grass. But at 0.16 seconds, it just doesn't deliver enough heat. This is, essentially, what I precisely calculated, and you'd already know this if you hadn't slept in school during math classes.

So it's not hot enough to scorch grass, yet under the capsule we see? Scorched grass. Now what caused this?
Obviously it wasn't the fireball, because you said it was too quick, so what happened then?
It's your reliance on calculations that cloud your head from what should be obvious in fakery but then again, I'm sure you know it's all fake.

It was yourself that said there wasn't scorched grass under the capsule, and that it proved the retros don't exist. Now there suddenly is scorched grass under the capsule? At least make up your mind.

Yes, it must give me great pleasure to mislead people through the devil's work that is mathematics. 

I don't think that picture shows scorch marks on grass. It definitely doesn't look like it. It looks like the crater of disturbed dirt left from the impact and the dragging of the capsule.

Quote from: icanbeanything on May 22, 2013, 01:52:46 AM

I don't think that picture shows scorch marks on grass. It definitely doesn't look like it. It looks like the crater of disturbed dirt left from the impact and the dragging of the capsule.

As long as you're getting paid for this, I can understand your stance.

Oh, man, if only I was getting paid for this...

So don't feel offended if I bypass the equations for something that should be plainly obvious to anyone that it's fake.

The calculations aren't wrong, but then again, a few assumptions were made, such as the volume of air underneath the rockets was heated uniformly and such.
What someone concludes from the results of the calculations however is subjective. There are many variables in play that are unknown, and so a best guess answer would involve taking each of these variables to be the rough average of what you'd expect them to be. For example, you wouldn't assume the grass to be extremely fire resistance, nor extremely prone to catching alight.

Maths is a lot more powerful than you think it is scepti.

Indeed it will be but then again, I don't have a problem with maths. I do, however, have a problem with fakery.

You sure did make it seem like you have a problem with maths:

Making a calculation for a supposed bunch of retro rockets arresting a descent, one second before touchdown, with, supposedly 3 men under it is fantasy stuff.
It's all fantasy and fraudulent bull crap and you know it and so does most of the others that start flinging out equations.

Like I said, the maths works, but whether the maths represents reality is subjective because of the unknown variables involved.

So anyway, what exactly do you believe has been faked? And please don't say all of it, be specific.

The capsule and parachute are real, I think.
The capsule is dropped from a plane and once on the ground, the suited up Astroliars are then placed inside and from there onwards it's a full on video show for the wide eyed public.

Basically it's as simple as that.

Why couldn't they be in the capsule when dropped from the plane? The maths already shows that they wouldn't have suffered such extreme conditions on landing.

Quote from: Puttah on May 22, 2013, 02:49:06 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 22, 2013, 02:47:39 AM

The capsule and parachute are real, I think.
The capsule is dropped from a plane and once on the ground, the suited up Astroliars are then placed inside and from there onwards it's a full on video show for the wide eyed public.

Basically it's as simple as that.

Why couldn't they be in the capsule when dropped from the plane? The maths already shows that they wouldn't have suffered such extreme conditions on landing.

Why risk the lives of actors by dropping them from a plane when it's easy to just deliver them to the capsule when on the ground.

How long do you think it would take to get 3 men in bulky flight suits into the capsule through that small hatch?