Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #300 on: April 19, 2009, 08:32:56 PM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

No one has proved it a certain age. People have shown absolute maximums and minimums, then there are other clues to the exact age. Something creationists don't understand. They started with an age calculated by some nutjob, then they search for evidence of this age.

Warrdog, there may be no exact known age for the universe, but it is certainly greater than a billion years old.

Certainly?  Interesting word.  Lets look at the number billion shall we?

1 billion is 1,000,000,000
    is 1 thousand, thousand, thousands = 2 x 103 x 103 x 103
    = 1 x 10^9
    or
    is 1 million thousands
    = 1 x 10^6 x 10^3
    = is 1 x 10^9

And now you are saying that it might not be 4 of these billions but its at least 1 of these billions.  Thats a pretty big fucking gap.  Big enough to leave me doubt to its validity.  I think my number while absurd to you, is no more or less plausible.



It's not a huge gap. As the size of a number increases, the gaps can increase, but they remain relatively small.

It certainly should not cause you to doubt it's validity. Your argument is completely ridiculous.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #301 on: April 19, 2009, 08:38:15 PM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

No one has proved it a certain age. People have shown absolute maximums and minimums, then there are other clues to the exact age. Something creationists don't understand. They started with an age calculated by some nutjob, then they search for evidence of this age.

Warrdog, there may be no exact known age for the universe, but it is certainly greater than a billion years old.

Certainly?  Interesting word.  Lets look at the number billion shall we?

1 billion is 1,000,000,000
    is 1 thousand, thousand, thousands = 2 x 103 x 103 x 103
    = 1 x 10^9
    or
    is 1 million thousands
    = 1 x 10^6 x 10^3
    = is 1 x 10^9

And now you are saying that it might not be 4 of these billions but its at least 1 of these billions.  Thats a pretty big fucking gap.  Big enough to leave me doubt to its validity.  I think my number while absurd to you, is no more or less plausible.



It's not a huge gap. As the size of a number increases, the gaps can increase, but they remain relatively small.

It certainly should not cause you to doubt it's validity. Your argument is completely ridiculous.


Greater than 1 billion but less than 4.5 billion YEARS is not that big of gap to you?  Lets put it into seconds for perspective.  The second you were born until you were 1 billiion seconds old would be 31 years 6 months.  Now at your 4.5 billion second mark you would be 142 years 5 months. 

Yeah, a pretty insignificant gap if you ask me. (do i need to put that in blue?)

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #302 on: April 19, 2009, 08:44:54 PM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

No one has proved it a certain age. People have shown absolute maximums and minimums, then there are other clues to the exact age. Something creationists don't understand. They started with an age calculated by some nutjob, then they search for evidence of this age.

Warrdog, there may be no exact known age for the universe, but it is certainly greater than a billion years old.

Certainly?  Interesting word.  Lets look at the number billion shall we?

1 billion is 1,000,000,000
    is 1 thousand, thousand, thousands = 2 x 103 x 103 x 103
    = 1 x 10^9
    or
    is 1 million thousands
    = 1 x 10^6 x 10^3
    = is 1 x 10^9

And now you are saying that it might not be 4 of these billions but its at least 1 of these billions.  Thats a pretty big fucking gap.  Big enough to leave me doubt to its validity.  I think my number while absurd to you, is no more or less plausible.



It's not a huge gap. As the size of a number increases, the gaps can increase, but they remain relatively small.

It certainly should not cause you to doubt it's validity. Your argument is completely ridiculous.


Greater than 1 billion but less than 4.5 billion YEARS is not that big of gap to you?  Lets put it into seconds for perspective.  The second you were born until you were 1 billiion seconds old would be 31 years 6 months.  Now at your 4.5 billion second mark you would be 142 years 5 months. 

Yeah, a pretty insignificant gap if you ask me. (do i need to put that in blue?)

If the gap was say between 4,000 and 20,000 years, that means the maximum is 5x greater than the minimum.

4billion is only 4 times larger than 1 billion.

The max and the min were found using different systems, meaning that it has to be within that range but neither number claims to be the actual age of the universe.

If you knew that a basketball player had scored 4 points in the first quarter, and the team finished with 60 points, you know he scored between 4 and 60 points, a huge gap, but still 100% accurate. Am I correct?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #303 on: April 19, 2009, 08:57:33 PM »

If the gap was say between 4,000 and 20,000 years, that means the maximum is 5x greater than the minimum.

4billion is only 4 times larger than 1 billion.

The max and the min were found using different systems, meaning that it has to be within that range but neither number claims to be the actual age of the universe.

If you knew that a basketball player had scored 4 points in the first quarter, and the team finished with 60 points, you know he scored between 4 and 60 points, a huge gap, but still 100% accurate. Am I correct?

Nope. Those two numbers are verifiable by looking at the scoreboard only.  But you didn't watch the game so how can you be sure that an error wasn't made when posting the scores to the board?  For all you know the score ending up only being 10.  What if two people came up to you and presented evidence that 10 was the correct score and two people came up to you with evidence for 60?  Now what do you do?

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #304 on: April 19, 2009, 09:12:48 PM »
Faith brings hope.
So you admit that your reason for believing in god is only for emotional comfort, and not rational investigation?
I don't know if I have a "why".  Rational investigation of what?  And how do you investigate something that happened 4.5 BILLION years ago?
1. There is always a why buried somewhere. I'd start looking in the subconscious for a comfort mechanism.  :P
It should occur to you that not having a reason for a belief in something, is a good reason to not to belief in that something.

2. Rational investigation of god. (Faith is not a rational investigation for anything, let alone something that cannot be investigated)
3. Who's talking about something that happened 4.5 billion years ago? We are talking about having faith in the here and now.


1. So you don't question the same things things now, that you are acknowledging you were once brainwashed to believe?

I acknowledge that i was taught to believe in something and I have no evidence to reject that teaching now.
Do you consider it to be unbiased to favor a teaching that could only be revoked on a universal negative? Why accept it in the first place?
The teapot example was a straight forward question. If that was what you were taught, and you had no evidence to reject the teaching now, would you still cling to that belief?

At what age is my point.  And for what reasons.  Were you mad at mommy and daddy? :-\  Hell I still don't go to church.  Haven't since I was probably 14.  But the belief is still there.
I can't know your point or your reasons.
I wasn't upset at anyone at the time. Emotions actually clouded my thoughts. But when I came to these conclusions, I became terribly upset. I cried and ran to my parents disturbed that my foundations for life weren't as solid as I once believed. It took me awhile to cope with the new dismal perspective, before I began to appreciate the new one for what it really was. If anything, I'm happy that it happened, and that it happened when I was young. The longer it becomes a part of your life, the harder it is to accept. For all I know, it could be 5 times harder for you than it was for me.

3. I only give credit to things that are written, peer reviewed, reproduced by the scientific community, and make logical sense.
So propaganda in a different form then, got it, thanx.
You know that's not fair assessment. You are discrediting an entire process and all of its benefits without examining a single example. Propaganda also has motivation behind it. Scientists make money and progress by tearing each others' theories apart, where ever they can find problems and then improving upon them as best they can making their own contribution. They all question each other and test each other. When they can narrow down a theory to the point that they can't disagree with rational arguments, the move on the the theories build upon them. The scientific community agrees only on what they cannot disagree on. I witness this remarkable system rather often.

Dismissing it as propaganda to change my beliefs is an unverified claim, and I suspect that you are reciting your own prejudices rather than coming to the conclusion that it (whatever 'it' is) is propaganda as you typed.


A vague story passed down orally for generations, before being written by men, edited by men, and rewritten by men, with no actual factual verification, filled with obvious contradictions and absurdities has little sway over me. I filter my sources only to ensure that the messages I would be relying on are factual.

Yeah like ancient Egypt.  Good to know those fuckers never existed either.
I'm not sure I follow. I have every reason to believe Egyptians existed. It seems you are replacing my argument with a flawed analogy to suit your own purpose in convincing yourself that my argument is also flawed. It seems to carry the essence of any strawman, but I don't think it's intentional.

If something is not peer reviewed, I am skeptical. Even if the message makes sense to me.
If something has not been reproduced in a controlled environment, I am still skeptical.
If something doesn't make logical sense to me, I question it and pursue it further in case I have a conflicting misconception about it, or something that it fits with.

Yet you perform none of the experiments or do any investigating yourself.  Only taking the word of 5 scientists that told you they did, and agreed on a conclusion.  Interesting.

What experiments do you expect me to conduct myself?
And 5? Seriously? The scientific community includes all voices from all scientists from all countries. Once again, you are altering your perspective of what I am suggesting in order to make it appear nonsensical. When they are all in agreement to a vast majority after rigorous testing, it is much harder to deny. Once again, there is no ultimate motivation for all of them to just simply agree. A career is made new findings, not in replicating someone else's findings. The motivation actually only exists when you are trying to convert people. See any religion.

I have already mentioned that proof of almost anything is impossible. All I have is evidence.
The difference between us that you are overlooking, is our scrutinization of the source.  If you don't consider the validity of what you read, you might start believing Harry Potter is a real person, who uses magic wands to fight evil wizards at Hogwarts.

There very well may be people that think Harry exists.  And who are we to tell them otherwise?
They are entitled to hold there beliefs, though I feel as though I wouldn't be doing my part if I didn't point out the flaws behind the reasons for their beliefs. If I can demonstrate that believing in Harry is an irrational emotional defense mechanism and they agree, I would have no problem if they still choose to continue to believe in Harry Potter.

Quote
The point being just because you can't see it or measure it doesn't always mean it doesn't exist.
You're right here. I am not telling you god doesn't exist, because I cannot know.
Quote
IE Aliens, most people think they exist.  I am one of them.  That kind of goes against the bible doesn't it?  But we can't prove it, there is no evidence for it.  That's what a belief is.  Faith.
I do not know what goes against your interpretation of the bible, but we cannot "see or measure" them simply because they are far away, not because they don't adhere to basic laws of reality. I too believe in aliens, but not because of faith. I believe in aliens because of basic probability. The size of the visible universe and the amount of planets that would likely fit the requirements of supporting life comes out very favorably.

Why is it that religion is exempt from the scientific method in your mind?
Its not.  Hence all the links I posted.  All evidence for the earth being created by something other than an accident.
The scientific method requires skeptics to review the work and attempt to find problems with it. I skimmed a few of your sources, and they don't even include references to how they reached there conclusions, so I can't reproduce the math, nor can anyone else. However, people can make their own experiments do their own math, and come to their own conclusions. They can then be peer reviewed, tested, retested, and altered and tested again. Carbon dating testing by the scientific community has already done that independently from your biblical sources, so I favor them over yours. I think you have this impression that the scientific community is a group of close friends that all want to guide people's beliefs, rather than a competitive global free-for-all.

And even the conclusions that your sources spell out are only conclusions for that issue. If you believe that the moon was really behaving that way over that course of time, how can you expand that as evidence of an all powerful entity?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 09:18:00 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #305 on: April 19, 2009, 09:13:19 PM »

If the gap was say between 4,000 and 20,000 years, that means the maximum is 5x greater than the minimum.

4billion is only 4 times larger than 1 billion.

The max and the min were found using different systems, meaning that it has to be within that range but neither number claims to be the actual age of the universe.

If you knew that a basketball player had scored 4 points in the first quarter, and the team finished with 60 points, you know he scored between 4 and 60 points, a huge gap, but still 100% accurate. Am I correct?

Nope. Those two numbers are verifiable by looking at the scoreboard only.  But you didn't watch the game so how can you be sure that an error wasn't made when posting the scores to the board?  For all you know the score ending up only being 10.  What if two people came up to you and presented evidence that 10 was the correct score and two people came up to you with evidence for 60?  Now what do you do?

That would be the first basketballgame I've ever seen that they didn't notice someone sinking baskets. I'd demand the game was thrown out because those refs really were blind.

Also, wow way to take an analogy WAY too far.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #306 on: April 19, 2009, 09:17:22 PM »

Also, wow way to take an analogy WAY too far.

You started it.



@singularity,  Ill get back to you just not tonite.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #307 on: April 19, 2009, 09:18:55 PM »

Also, wow way to take an analogy WAY too far.

You started it.



@singularity,  Ill get back to you just not tonite.

Ok, what is the symbolism of someone showing that the scoreboard is wrong? What does that represent at all? Can you seriously justify that nonsense?

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Pongo

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #308 on: April 20, 2009, 12:33:48 AM »
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

Let me put this into perspective for you.  What was the person's name that invented an antimalarial drug saving millions of lives?  What was the person's name that pioneered cardiac bypass operations?  Who was it that first timed the speed of light, calculated the mass of carbon, or invented an internal combustible engine?  I'm not testing your Google skills here, I'm trying to show you that these accomplishments are all worthy of acknowledgment yet very few people could pull a name off the top of their head for any of them.  I can't.  What you are trying to do is belittle my points by saying that the person (it's really persons) that used data derived from science to calculate the age of the earth aren't worth remembering (or possibly, that the feat itself isn't note worthy). 

Allow me to let you in on a little secret; a secret that if you comprehended, you would not post these posts.  If you could prove the age of the earth to be young, it would effectively disprove the vast majority of the geological, astronomical, evolutionary, and anthropological sciences.  These are broad fields of science that you can find a 101 class for at any university, the amount of sub fields that you would also be dislodging is mind staggering.  So when I tell you that if you can prove a young earth, I want you to understand the full meaning.  You would dethrone the cornerstones of so many fields of science that your name would be the title of every first chapter of every new science book written about these topics.  You would have campus buildings named after you, library wings dedicated to you, and busts sculpted in your likeness.  You would be given honorary doctorates by the hand full, multimillion dollar grants, and teams of scholastic people to do your bidding.  Your name would truly survive the ages laying shame to Einstein and Newton.  This is because, to do what I am proposing, would be to single-handedly rewrite over three hundred years of tested, repeatable, reviewed, retested, rerepeatable, and rereviewed works of science.  It would be making the life-works of thousands of the greatest minds that have graced this lonely rock obsolete. 

This is what you fight against.  This is why, if you comprehended it, you wouldn't post your posts.  This is why you will never disprove the age of the earth.  This is why you will die without anyone remembering you.  And finally, this is why are wrong; the collective minds of scores of thousands of scientists toiling and triumphing is greater than the false hopes and misguided morals of your archaic tome.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #309 on: April 20, 2009, 05:57:25 PM »

Also, wow way to take an analogy WAY too far.

You started it.



@singularity,  Ill get back to you just not tonite.

Ok, what is the symbolism of someone showing that the scoreboard is wrong? What does that represent at all? Can you seriously justify that nonsense?

Nonsense?  It was your analogy!  I was just expounding on it.  The symbolism is evidence of two different outcomes.  And evidence to support each.  Considering you did none of the investigating yourself you now have to believe, or to put it another way, have faith, one of them is correct based on the evidence.




OK lets get this one out of the way.
SPOILER:  You will not find one.  If you can however debunk the age of the earth, your name will survive the ages along with Newton and Einstein.

And what was the guys name that proved 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of the earth again?  Newton and Einstein I know.  But this guy seems to have slipped my mind.

Let me put this into perspective for you.  What was the person's name that invented an antimalarial drug saving millions of lives?

No idea but Ive taken his medicine.


  What was the person's name that pioneered cardiac bypass operations?

Dunno.


  Who was it that first timed the speed of light, calculated the mass of carbon, or invented an internal combustible engine? 

Dunno, not sure, and Gottlieb Daimler invented the prototype for what combustible engines are based off of today.


I'm not testing your Google skills here,

I didn't use them.


I'm trying to show you that these accomplishments are all worthy of acknowledgment yet very few people could pull a name off the top of their head for any of them.  I can't.  What you are trying to do is belittle my points by saying that the person (it's really persons) that used data derived from science to calculate the age of the earth aren't worth remembering (or possibly, that the feat itself isn't note worthy). 

Wrong.  What Im saying is no one has proven the age of the earth beyond a shadow of doubt.  Hence no ones name is attached to it.  If it was proven, don't you think Christians would then be trying to explain religion based on the old earth theory?



Allow me to let you in on a little secret; a secret that if you comprehended, you would not post these posts. 

Ok, shoot.  I'm bored.


If you could prove the age of the earth to be young, it would effectively disprove the vast majority of the geological, astronomical, evolutionary, and anthropological sciences.  These are broad fields of science that you can find a 101 class for at any university, the amount of sub fields that you would also be dislodging is mind staggering.  So when I tell you that if you can prove a young earth, I want you to understand the full meaning.  You would dethrone the cornerstones of so many fields of science that your name would be the title of every first chapter of every new science book written about these topics.  You would have campus buildings named after you, library wings dedicated to you, and busts sculpted in your likeness.  You would be given honorary doctorates by the hand full, multimillion dollar grants, and teams of scholastic people to do your bidding.  Your name would truly survive the ages laying shame to Einstein and Newton.  This is because, to do what I am proposing, would be to single-handedly rewrite over three hundred years of tested, repeatable, reviewed, retested, rerepeatable, and rereviewed works of science.  It would be making the life-works of thousands of the greatest minds that have graced this lonely rock obsolete. 

And if you could prove the age of the earth to be old, it would unravel not only Christianity but multiple different religions with a creation story around the world.  Do you know why most creation evidence isn't peer reviewed?  The scientific establishment won't allow creationists to publish.  Both creationists and evolutionists have the same evidence. The difference is in how that evidence is interpreted.  As I've said before, both creation and evolution are faith positions based on different worldviews. Evolutionists exclude God from consideration a priori, not because of the evidence.   Besides, who wants their bust scuplted.  I have alot of chest hair.  It probably wouldn't look good.



This is what you fight against.  This is why, if you comprehended it, you wouldn't post your posts.  This is why you will never disprove the age of the earth. 

And neither will you.


This is why you will die without anyone remembering you. 

Lots of people will remeber me.  Don't lump me in with your sad and lonely excuse for a life.


And finally, this is why are wrong; the collective minds of scores of thousands of scientists toiling and triumphing is greater than the false hopes and misguided morals of your archaic tome.

We shall see, eventually we will all know the truth.






Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #310 on: April 20, 2009, 06:09:15 PM »

We shall see, eventually we will all know the truth.



and technically you are right the fact of the age of the earth has not been decided for certain. We also don't know for certain that the sun will rise tomorrow. it however is the safe bet.
And what would you say if you were wrong.
Second what if the Hinduism or atheist or Buddhist are right we will never know the truth.
You can't outrun death forever
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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #311 on: April 20, 2009, 06:13:13 PM »
No. You are wrong warrdog, you can't simply bring up an unrelated point to prove an analogy wrong. If someone says that the money return at a bank works with pressure like a gun, you can't say, what if there was a gun that didn't work with pressure?

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #312 on: April 20, 2009, 06:15:31 PM »
No. You are wrong warrdog, you can't simply bring up an unrelated point to prove an analogy wrong. If someone says that the money return at a bank works with pressure like a gun, you can't say, what if there was a gun that didn't work with pressure?

Sorry dude, that one made my eyes hurt.

Throw the analogy out then.  What were we talking about?

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #313 on: April 20, 2009, 06:16:55 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #314 on: April 20, 2009, 06:18:47 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #315 on: April 20, 2009, 06:57:38 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.
I have looked at it. I wasn't that impressed. there is a chance that the earth is 10000 years old however again I put it with the same likeliness As me throwing a ball at a wall and having it quantum tunnel through the wall. Technically it is possible however the chance is so minuet it is not even worth considering.
You can't outrun death forever
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #316 on: April 20, 2009, 06:59:18 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.
I have looked at it. I wasn't that impressed. there is a chance that the earth is 10000 years old however again I put it with the same likeliness As me throwing a ball at a wall and having it quantum tunnel through the wall. Technically it is possible however the chance is so minuet it is not even worth considering.

And Im the one thats stubborn.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #317 on: April 20, 2009, 07:08:24 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.

Where is the evidence that it is any younger than 3 billion years old? Show me one bit of evidence that says, "this couldn't have been happening for 3 billion years"

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #318 on: April 20, 2009, 07:20:50 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.

Where is the evidence that it is any younger than 3 billion years old? Show me one bit of evidence that says, "this couldn't have been happening for 3 billion years"

How many do you want.  Lets start with 5.

1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.

The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape. Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. Evolutionists call this "the winding-up dilemma," which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. The same "winding-up" dilemma also applies to other galaxies. For the last few decades the favored attempt to resolve the puzzle has been a complex theory called "density waves." The theory has conceptual problems, has to be arbitrarily and very finely tuned, and has been called into serious question by the Hubble Space Telescope's discovery of very detailed spiral structure in the central hub of the "Whirlpool" galaxy, M51.

2. Too few supernova remnants.

According to astronomical observations, galaxies like our own experience about one supernova (a violently-exploding star) every 25 years. The gas and dust remnants from such explosions (like the Crab Nebula) expand outward rapidly and should remain visible for over a million years. Yet the nearby parts of our galaxy in which we could observe such gas and dust shells contain only about 200 supernova remnants. That number is consistent with only about 7,000 years worth of supernovas.

3. Comets disintegrate too quickly.

According to evolutionary theory, comets are supposed to be the same age as the solar system, about five billion years. Yet each time a comet orbits close to the sun, it loses so much of its material that it could not survive much longer than about 100,000 years. Many comets have typical ages of less than 10,000 years. Evolutionists explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical "Oort cloud" well beyond the orbit of Pluto, (b) improbable gravitational interactions with infrequently passing stars often knock comets into the solar system, and (c) other improbable interactions with planets slow down the incoming comets often enough to account for the hundreds of comets observed.5 So far, none of these assumptions has been substantiated either by observations or realistic calculations. Lately, there has been much talk of the "Kuiper Belt," a disc of supposed comet sources lying in the plane of the solar system just outside the orbit of Pluto. Some asteroid-sized bodies of ice exist in that location, but they do not solve the evolutionists' problem, since according to evolutionary theory, the Kuiper Belt would quickly become exhausted if there were no Oort cloud to supply it.

4. Not enough mud on the sea floor.

Each year, water and winds erode about 20 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the ocean. This material accumulates as loose sediment on the hard basaltic (lava-formed) rock of the ocean floor. The average depth of all the sediment in the whole ocean is less than 400 meters. The main way known to remove the sediment from the ocean floor is by plate tectonic subduction. That is, sea floor slides slowly (a few cm/year) beneath the continents, taking some sediment with it. According to secular scientific literature, that process presently removes only 1 billion tons per year. As far as anyone knows, the other 19 billion tons per year simply accumulate. At that rate, erosion would deposit the present mass of sediment in less than 12 million years. Yet according to evolutionary theory, erosion and plate subduction have been going on as long as the oceans have existed, an alleged three billion years. If that were so, the rates above imply that the oceans would be massively choked with sediment dozens of kilometers deep. An alternative (creationist) explanation is that erosion from the waters of the Genesis flood running off the continents deposited the present amount of sediment within a short time about 5,000 years ago.

5. Not enough sodium in the sea.

Every year, rivers and other sources dump over 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean. Only 27% of this sodium manages to get back out of the sea each year. As far as anyone knows, the remainder simply accumulates in the ocean. If the sea had no sodium to start with, it would have accumulated its present amount in less than 42 million years at today's input and output rates. This is much less than the evolutionary age of the ocean, three billion years. The usual reply to this discrepancy is that past sodium inputs must have been less and outputs greater. However, calculations that are as generous as possible to evolutionary scenarios still give a maximum age of only 62 million years. Calculations for many other seawater elements give much younger ages for the ocean.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 07:22:44 PM by WardoggKC130FE »

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #319 on: April 20, 2009, 07:29:35 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.

Where is the evidence that it is any younger than 3 billion years old? Show me one bit of evidence that says, "this couldn't have been happening for 3 billion years"

How many do you want.  Lets start with 5.

1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.

The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape. Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. Evolutionists call this "the winding-up dilemma," which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. The same "winding-up" dilemma also applies to other galaxies. For the last few decades the favored attempt to resolve the puzzle has been a complex theory called "density waves." The theory has conceptual problems, has to be arbitrarily and very finely tuned, and has been called into serious question by the Hubble Space Telescope's discovery of very detailed spiral structure in the central hub of the "Whirlpool" galaxy, M51.

Actually they should break up much sooner than that Blackholes observed at the center of galaxies could be an explanation for this. Or dark matter. Or we lack understanding of gravity at supermassive distances.

2. Too few supernova remnants.

According to astronomical observations, galaxies like our own experience about one supernova (a violently-exploding star) every 25 years. The gas and dust remnants from such explosions (like the Crab Nebula) expand outward rapidly and should remain visible for over a million years. Yet the nearby parts of our galaxy in which we could observe such gas and dust shells contain only about 200 supernova remnants. That number is consistent with only about 7,000 years worth of supernovas.

3. Comets disintegrate too quickly.

According to evolutionary theory, comets are supposed to be the same age as the solar system, about five billion years. Yet each time a comet orbits close to the sun, it loses so much of its material that it could not survive much longer than about 100,000 years. Many comets have typical ages of less than 10,000 years. Evolutionists explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical "Oort cloud" well beyond the orbit of Pluto, (b) improbable gravitational interactions with infrequently passing stars often knock comets into the solar system, and (c) other improbable interactions with planets slow down the incoming comets often enough to account for the hundreds of comets observed.5 So far, none of these assumptions has been substantiated either by observations or realistic calculations. Lately, there has been much talk of the "Kuiper Belt," a disc of supposed comet sources lying in the plane of the solar system just outside the orbit of Pluto. Some asteroid-sized bodies of ice exist in that location, but they do not solve the evolutionists' problem, since according to evolutionary theory, the Kuiper Belt would quickly become exhausted if there were no Oort cloud to supply it.

our solar system is not as old as the universe. The ort cloud solves this.

4. Not enough mud on the sea floor.
Rivers and dust storms dump mud into the sea much faster than plate tectonic sub-duction can remove it.

Each year, water and winds erode about 20 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the ocean. This material accumulates as loose sediment on the hard basaltic (lava-formed) rock of the ocean floor. The average depth of all the sediment in the whole ocean is less than 400 meters. The main way known to remove the sediment from the ocean floor is by plate tectonic subduction. That is, sea floor slides slowly (a few cm/year) beneath the continents, taking some sediment with it. According to secular scientific literature, that process presently removes only 1 billion tons per year. As far as anyone knows, the other 19 billion tons per year simply accumulate. At that rate, erosion would deposit the present mass of sediment in less than 12 million years. Yet according to evolutionary theory, erosion and plate subduction have been going on as long as the oceans have existed, an alleged three billion years. If that were so, the rates above imply that the oceans would be massively choked with sediment dozens of kilometers deep. An alternative (creationist) explanation is that erosion from the waters of the Genesis flood running off the continents deposited the present amount of sediment within a short time about 5,000 years ago.

5. Not enough sodium in the sea.

Every year, rivers and other sources dump over 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean. Only 27% of this sodium manages to get back out of the sea each year. As far as anyone knows, the remainder simply accumulates in the ocean. If the sea had no sodium to start with, it would have accumulated its present amount in less than 42 million years at today's input and output rates. This is much less than the evolutionary age of the ocean, three billion years. The usual reply to this discrepancy is that past sodium inputs must have been less and outputs greater. However, calculations that are as generous as possible to evolutionary scenarios still give a maximum age of only 62 million years. Calculations for many other seawater elements give much younger ages for the ocean.


Most of these are about the Earth itself and do not in any way date the universe.

Many of them are just blatant attempts at claiming they don't know enough about a subject to answer it.


My google search on the age of the ocean and salinity showed this. A researcher used things that are not removed from the ocean over the years to estimate it's age. (calcium is formed into sea shells, various things like that) He came up with 1.1 * 10^8. this is 110,000,000.


So the age of the ocean is at least higher than what you claim.

This means all your other predictions can not predict the earth any younger than 100 million years. Thank you for disproving creationism.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #320 on: April 20, 2009, 07:33:35 PM »
Covering 3 out of 5, not bad.  And one of those came up with way less than even 1 billion.  So by your own confession we are now at a range of 110,000,000 and 4.5 billion.  Thanx for disproving your own theory.  Great Job

I have more if you want.

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Raist

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #321 on: April 20, 2009, 07:35:54 PM »
Covering 3 out of 5, not bad.  And one of those came up with way less than even 1 billion.  So by your own confession we are now at a range of 110,000,000 and 4.5 billion.  Thanx for disproving your own theory.  Great Job

I have more if you want.

My range still fits. My minimum age was 110,000,000. Also, that figure was for how long the ocean has been around. The ocean is not the age of the universe.

So my age is at minimum greater than 110,000,000. This figure does not mean when the earth was created either. It means when the current ocean we have now happened. It also is a minimum.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #322 on: April 20, 2009, 07:38:21 PM »
Covering 3 out of 5, not bad.  And one of those came up with way less than even 1 billion.  So by your own confession we are now at a range of 110,000,000 and 4.5 billion.  Thanx for disproving your own theory.  Great Job

I have more if you want.

My range still fits. My minimum age was 110,000,000. Also, that figure was for how long the ocean has been around. The ocean is not the age of the universe.

Not in your theory anyway.

Do you want 5 more?

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #323 on: April 20, 2009, 08:04:35 PM »
That the age of the Universe was narrowed down to two extremes. We can tell for sure it has to be older than a certain date, and younger than another date.

Ahhh yes, 'cept there is evidence that you refuse to look at.  So in actuality, the range is about 10,000 years to 4,500,000,000 years.

Where is the evidence that it is any younger than 3 billion years old? Show me one bit of evidence that says, "this couldn't have been happening for 3 billion years"

How many do you want.  Lets start with 5.

1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.

The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape. Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. Evolutionists call this "the winding-up dilemma," which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. The same "winding-up" dilemma also applies to other galaxies. For the last few decades the favored attempt to resolve the puzzle has been a complex theory called "density waves." The theory has conceptual problems, has to be arbitrarily and very finely tuned, and has been called into serious question by the Hubble Space Telescope's discovery of very detailed spiral structure in the central hub of the "Whirlpool" galaxy, M51.

Creationist Claim: Spiral Galaxies ?Wind Up? Too Fast for an Old Universe
Filed under: creationism, galaxies ? astrostu206265 @ 6:06 pm
Tags: creationism, institute for creation research, answers in genesis, Russ Humphreys, young-earth creationism, galaxies, spiral galaxies, formation of spiral arms, russel humphreys, spiral galaxies wind up too fast, creation wiki, creationwiki
Introduction

In preparation for a few public lectures I?ll be doing in the next 6 months, I wanted to address another one of the three main (that I?ve see) straight-forward young-earth Creationist claims about astronomy that ?prove? we live in a young universe: Spiral galaxies ?wind themselves up too fast.?

This is actually the #1 claim in Russ Humphrey?s treatise on ?Evidence for a Young World? that you can find on sites such as Answers in Genesis or the Institute for Creation Research (e.g., this link).

Note that the #2 reason presented is that comets would disintegrate too quickly (which I?ve addressed here) and the #5 claim (#3 astronomy claim) is that the Earth?s magnetic field is decaying too quickly, which I will address in a future blog post.
About Spiral Galaxies

Spiral galaxies, such as the one above (M101), are generally medium- to large-sized congregations of stars. They have either a bulge in the center or a bar in the center. The bulk of the galaxy is a disk (much wider than it is thick) that contains spiral arms. For more basic information on galaxies, see this link.

The feature in question in creationist circles is these subjectively beautiful spiral arms themselves. The trick is that these arms are not ?solid.? It is not the case that stars either always exist within a spiral arm or they always exist outside of an arm. Rather, the arms are constantly picking up stars and losing others. What the arms represent are just density waves.

The common analogy to think of is cars on a highway. You may be driving along with many dozens or hundreds of meters between you and the car in front of you. Then, for no apparent reason, you start to get much closer to the car in front of you. And then, for the next several kilometers, there are only maybe five to ten meters between you and the car ahead of you. Afterwards, traffic seems to thin out again and there?s a large distance between you and the next car.

What you have just experienced is a density wave. You are a star, traveling the road that is an orbit around the galaxy, and every now-and-then you find yourself in a density wave where you have to slow down.

The mechanism that perpetuates the density waves - why they don?t just dissipate - is that as a star approaches a density wave, it will speed up slightly due to the gravity of the stars there. And as a star is about to leave a density wave, it will slow down a little, again because of the higher gravity there. So they won?t just smooth out over time.

How did the spiral arms get there in the first place? The main idea here is that all you need is a disk of stars. Stars closest to the center of the disk will need to rotate around it faster than those near the edge, just like planets in our solar system (Mercury?s velocity around the sun is much faster than Earth?s). This can easily set up the initial differential rotation needed to start them.

In addition to this, stars do not orbit on circular paths, rather on elliptical ones (Kepler?s first law). When farthest from the center, their velocity will be at its slowest (Kepler?s second law). When you have just a few extra stars traveling a little slower in some parts of a differentially rotating disk, then you will get spiral patterns.

I might add this has much more numbers and stuff to compare it to with evidence supporting it. basically it says that the arms form then disappear over time and the fact they are hear right now does not disprove anything
.
2. Too few supernova remnants.

According to astronomical observations, galaxies like our own experience about one supernova (a violently-exploding star) every 25 years. The gas and dust remnants from such explosions (like the Crab Nebula) expand outward rapidly and should remain visible for over a million years. Yet the nearby parts of our galaxy in which we could observe such gas and dust shells contain only about 200 supernova remnants. That number is consistent with only about 7,000 years worth of supernovas.


As for the supernova remnants, Keith Davies (self taught astronomer; his degree is in education) assumes that supernova remnants (SNR) should be visible for millions of years (wrong), that we see all or most of the ones it is possible to see (wrong again), and so derives from these very bad assumptions a very large number of SNRs in various states that we "should see" but don't.

Obviously, Davies never went SNR hunting in a galactic environment, but I have. For one thing, an SNR becomes essentially invisible, even in a non-crowded environment, within 1,000,000 year tops, maybe less, depending on the specifics of the supernova and environment. But in practice they become essentially invisible long before.

3. Comets disintegrate too quickly.

According to evolutionary theory, comets are supposed to be the same age as the solar system, about five billion years. Yet each time a comet orbits close to the sun, it loses so much of its material that it could not survive much longer than about 100,000 years. Many comets have typical ages of less than 10,000 years. Evolutionists explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical "Oort cloud" well beyond the orbit of Pluto, (b) improbable gravitational interactions with infrequently passing stars often knock comets into the solar system, and (c) other improbable interactions with planets slow down the incoming comets often enough to account for the hundreds of comets observed.5 So far, none of these assumptions has been substantiated either by observations or realistic calculations. Lately, there has been much talk of the "Kuiper Belt," a disc of supposed comet sources lying in the plane of the solar system just outside the orbit of Pluto. Some asteroid-sized bodies of ice exist in that location, but they do not solve the evolutionists' problem, since according to evolutionary theory, the Kuiper Belt would quickly become exhausted if there were no Oort cloud to supply it.

4. Not enough mud on the sea floor.

Each year, water and winds erode about 20 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the ocean. This material accumulates as loose sediment on the hard basaltic (lava-formed) rock of the ocean floor. The average depth of all the sediment in the whole ocean is less than 400 meters. The main way known to remove the sediment from the ocean floor is by plate tectonic subduction. That is, sea floor slides slowly (a few cm/year) beneath the continents, taking some sediment with it. According to secular scientific literature, that process presently removes only 1 billion tons per year. As far as anyone knows, the other 19 billion tons per year simply accumulate. At that rate, erosion would deposit the present mass of sediment in less than 12 million years. Yet according to evolutionary theory, erosion and plate subduction have been going on as long as the oceans have existed, an alleged three billion years. If that were so, the rates above imply that the oceans would be massively choked with sediment dozens of kilometers deep. An alternative (creationist) explanation is that erosion from the waters of the Genesis flood running off the continents deposited the present amount of sediment within a short time about 5,000 years ago.


Humphreys claims that not enough mud exists on the sea-floor since after 3 billion years at current levels of erosion the ocean should be 'choked' with kilometres of mud. This argument makes so many geological errors it's hard to know where to start. Firstly, only so much sediment can be eroded into the sea, unless it is replaced somehow. Where new sediment comes from solves Humphrey's supposed puzzle, as we shall see.

Secondly, the more sediment that is eroded, the more water it displaces, not replaces. The ocean can never be ?choked? by mud. That might seem like a minor point, but it shows the carelessness of Humphreys? arguments.

Third, Humphreys ignores the fact that no mainstream geologist claims that the ocean floors are 3 billion years old. Based on plate tectonic theory and direct measurements of seafloor age, the oldest oceanic crust is a mere 180 million years old. Most of it is a lot younger, as new seafloor is continually formed along the mid-oceanic ridges. Older seafloor is subducted into the Earth's mantle, and most of its sediments are scoured off and found in uplifted mountain chains around the world.

Finally Humphreys misrepresents the nature of sea-floor sediments. Out in the deepest oceans, furthermost from land, the sediments are mostly composed of materials formed by plankton, and minerals that precipitate slowly around nodules on the sea-floor. This material does average about 400 metres in thickness and accumulates very slowly. Very little of this sediment is derived directly from river outflow off the land.




Along the edges of the continents, however, are extremely thick layers of sediment derived from river outflows. The actual average amount of sediment in the ocean is about 2,300 metres, some 5.75 times Humphreys' 400 metre average. Hence over 90 million years of erosive sediment exists in the ocean - if erosion was lower in the past it might have taken even longer to accumulate. Subduction is not the main cause of removal of such sediment. Instead it accumulates along what are known as inactive continental margins, until that continent eventually collides with another continental plate and is uplifted, to be eroded into the sea once more. Thus new sediment is created from old sediment that has been solidified and uplifted.

5. Not enough sodium in the sea.

Every year, rivers and other sources dump over 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean. Only 27% of this sodium manages to get back out of the sea each year. As far as anyone knows, the remainder simply accumulates in the ocean. If the sea had no sodium to start with, it would have accumulated its present amount in less than 42 million years at today's input and output rates. This is much less than the evolutionary age of the ocean, three billion years. The usual reply to this discrepancy is that past sodium inputs must have been less and outputs greater. However, calculations that are as generous as possible to evolutionary scenarios still give a maximum age of only 62 million years. Calculations for many other seawater elements give much younger ages for the ocean.
Humphreys takes another process and extrapolates it to an absurd degree. This time it is sodium, the metallic half of the ocean?s most common salt. He claims that only 27% of what flows into the ocean is removed. Does he explain all the sources of removal? And does the sodium need to ?leave? the ocean in order to be removed from solution in the ocean? In all probability he has neglected all the removal processes. Vast amounts of salt are known to be buried beneath sediment along the continental margins. As sea-levels have changed over time, shallow lagoons and land-locked bays ? even seas like the Mediterranean ? have become super-saturated with salt, causing it be precipitated on the sea-floor. Also the various minerals dissolved in sea-water can, in the open ocean, interact with the chemically active mid-ocean ridges and be locked away beneath the seafloor.

Humphreys has assumed that the few processes of removal he has calculated with are the ONLY means for sodium and other dissolved minerals to be removed. But as we have seen from previous 'evidences' he drastically over-simplifies for the sake of a cheap point.


« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 08:15:05 PM by optimisticcynic »
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #324 on: April 20, 2009, 08:06:44 PM »
Can you go through the trouble of separating that somehow so I can tell whats yours and whats mine? 

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #325 on: April 20, 2009, 08:15:35 PM »
there you go. ;D
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But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #326 on: April 20, 2009, 08:49:13 PM »
Great thanx.  So is this one a draw then?  Becuase this is my favorite part of this guys rebuttal.

Quote
As for the supernova remnants, Keith Davies (self taught astronomer; his degree is in education) assumes that supernova remnants (SNR) should be visible for millions of years (wrong), that we see all or most of the ones it is possible to see (wrong again), and so derives from these very bad assumptions a very large number of SNRs in various states that we "should see" but don't.

I think I will just type a rebuttal to his arguments with some "wrongs" typed in there.  That should be good. 

There is plenty more where this came from. 

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #327 on: April 20, 2009, 08:50:59 PM »
Great thanx.  So is this one a draw then?  Becuase this is my favorite part of this guys rebuttal.

Quote
As for the supernova remnants, Keith Davies (self taught astronomer; his degree is in education) assumes that supernova remnants (SNR) should be visible for millions of years (wrong), that we see all or most of the ones it is possible to see (wrong again), and so derives from these very bad assumptions a very large number of SNRs in various states that we "should see" but don't.

I think I will just type a rebuttal to his arguments with some "wrongs" typed in there.  That should be good. 

There is plenty more where this came from. 
what time is it where you are. I notice at this time every night your arguments tend to go down hill.
You can't outrun death forever
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #328 on: April 20, 2009, 08:53:10 PM »
Close to midnight.  And im going here shortly.  LOL. 

Re: Youtube - Foundational Falsehood of Creationism
« Reply #329 on: April 20, 2009, 09:34:34 PM »
anyway it makes sense that yo would not be able to see the remnants after much less then a million years. they were blown away by  a supernova at speeds well above escape velocity. They would not just get to a certain size then stay in a cloud formation. they would keep expanding and getting less dense(and harder to see) at a high speed. the fact we are able to see the remnants after a few thousand years is surprising expecting to be able to see them after 10s of thousands of years is like expecting to see dust in the air from blowing up a stick of explosives after a week.
 
You can't outrun death forever
But you can sure make the old bastard work for it.