War

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: War
« Reply #900 on: March 03, 2022, 07:27:45 AM »


Pez is largely right here, if you take out Russia from most of your statements and replace with NATO or Western alliance/proxy, Ukraine for Iraq, Yemen or almost any desert, middle eastern country, the difference is in degrees.

That doesn’t make him or me apologists for Putin, he’s a dick and what he has done and doing is wrong, but we do not have the moral high ground.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: War
« Reply #901 on: March 03, 2022, 07:34:30 AM »
It's so strange that anyone who has a slightly different view of the situation is instantly accused of supporting Putin and the invasion.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #902 on: March 03, 2022, 07:40:19 AM »


Pez is largely right here, if you take out Russia from most of your statements and replace with NATO or Western alliance/proxy, Ukraine for Iraq, Yemen or almost any desert, middle eastern country, the difference is in degrees.

That doesn’t make him or me apologists for Putin, he’s a dick and what he has done and doing is wrong, but we do not have the moral high ground.

No shit... 

One battle for human rights and liberal values at a time,  we can tackle the others later (as we have done in the past). 

Being against Russia's invasion of Ukraine does not imply I would support the US invasion of Afghanistan.  Not sure where you got that idea.


Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #903 on: March 03, 2022, 07:41:00 AM »
I would agree that America has violated international law and human rights on many different occasions.  It's when people use this as a whataboutism to justify Russia that I think they're a Putin apologist.

On this conflict the West absolutely does have the moral high round.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #904 on: March 03, 2022, 07:43:34 AM »
It's so strange that anyone who has a slightly different view of the situation is instantly accused of supporting Putin and the invasion.

LOL,  you forget it's Pez we are talking about, that should explain it all.  He's a professional contrarian.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #905 on: March 03, 2022, 07:52:58 AM »
Shifter, yes, Europe (I'm not sure who "we" is supposed to be here) dropped the ball on Crimea, not for the reason you seem to think.

Media has just decided that "the world" is the west and that there are worthy and unworthy victims, that's all. You're also talking about it as if it is a personal thing. It's not personal, it's not YOU being unable to follow all the news. It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the approach states have taken here. And the war in Ukraine doesn't affect YOU in Australia either. If the west wasn't competing with Russia this would have been a footnote and no one would have paid attention.

How is 'the west' competing with Russia? No one gives a fuck about taking on Russia.

This is just obviously not true. Again, under Yeltsin Russia was largely controlled by the US in many ways. However it had been promised that in exchange for breaking up the Warsaw pact and handing over east Germany, NATO would not expand eastward. Then it did. Putin becomes president and he tries to join NATO. NATO doesn't want that. They increasingly took Russia less and less seriously, like they're just pushovers now. Then Russia actually started becoming somewhat more important in the sense that their natural gas fueled Europe but also China. They also provide other important materials to China, such as oil, uranium etc. So the rhetoric against them grew harsher.

The entire issue started when the west, post USSR collapse, basically told Russia "it's our way or the highway" and despite Russia initially wanting to get closer to Europe and NATO, it was made clear to them that it wouldn't be on their terms. Then NATO agrees to let Ukraine and Georgia join in 2008 again in violation to the promises made to Russia. So Russia sends troops to Abkhazia, making it clear this would not be tolerated. Did they not know something like this would happen? They did, because George Keenan among many others was screaming about it, and intelligence services had published reports that such moves would destabilize the region and possibly result in Russia reacting violently. After a while, the EU started courting Ukraine. They offered a deal to Yanukovych, Putin saw it and offered a better deal because he wanted Ukraine to remain close to Russia. Yanukovych dropped the EU deal and accepted Putin's deal. That's how Euromaidan started, which ended up with Yanukovych getting couped, and the heavily west supported nationalists coming in power. This practically sparked a civil war in some regions, and gave Putin an excuse to invade and annex Crimea (which was autonomous from Ukraine and following recent events largely consented to being annexed). You are right that Europe and the US dropped the ball on Crimea, but it wasn't because they didn't sanction Russia enough or anything like that. It was because they knew what their attempts at expansion would lead to and did it anyways. Again there had been warnings that were ignored due to arrogance.

Europe for some reason shot itself in the foot by becoming entirely dependent on natural gas from Russia while also denouncing Putin left and right. Meanwhile Ukraine and NATO kept trying to figure out how Ukraine would join, and eventually Ukraine decided they would not negotiate with separatist regions any more. Again NATO knew this would push Putin's buttons and kept doing it regardless because they didn't take Russia seriously and had entered a process where they'd aim to weaken Russia entirely as a superpower until they can get a government there which they can control, so that they also have control over the gas reserves and uranium, again because the main competitor is China. But they can't really do shit to China, while Russia is an easier target. Did they expect Putin would lash out so violently and invade Ukraine from all sides? Probably not, but that there would be a crisis and continued instability was absolutely known. There's just so many people who had warned something like this would happen if the EU and the US kept doing what they were doing years ago. So really this crisis is not new, it is years in the making, and everyone who tried to warn about it was ignored.

Again it wasn't expected that it would reach that scale, but it's not like it came out of the blue, and it's not like there was nothing that could have been done to avoid it. Again, see intelligence reports in 2013. See what George Keenan said back in the 90s. See what John Mearsheimer and other American international relations academics in the realist school of thought have been saying for years. So yes it is an issue of competition between great powers, even if one is significantly smaller than the others. And you may insist that it was all just reaction to Putin, but prior to 2008 there wasn't any indication of Russia behaving aggressively to eastern Europe etc. The west didn't even have an indication that he wanted to take over Ukraine or any other place in eastern Europe before 2014.

Also you are again talking about it as if it's certain that he wants to conquer the whole of Ukraine. Let him try, maybe at least that way he's gonna fall sooner. If he is still at least somewhat sane, he won't try to annex the entire country. He'll probably trash the place until they let Donbass go, recognize Crimea and yield to his demands.

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Putin is just an authoritatian arsehole.

He is but that never is the point in geopolitics.

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They meddle in international affairs.

So? So does every other major power. Do you think there wasn't any meddling in Russia's affairs? It's only an issue when the other team does it.

Doesn't matter if Russia's economy is small. Yes, their economy is small, but it's literally the largest country in the world in terms of area and controls a lot of important natural resources.
 
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Do you think Australia has no stake in this if the security and peace in the EU collapses? Even you cant be that dense.
It's interesting that you don't think Russia had any valid security concerns at all, but Australia has a security concern because the EU (literally on the other side of the world) has a security concern because of an invasion in a country that is even not part of the EU.

No dude, the EU doesn't currently run any meaningful risk of invasion unless the EU tries to go to war with Russia, and Australia even less.

I don't care if you think all this is "Putin apologia", if there hadn't been so much arrogance we wouldn't be in this spot. I do think it's mostly Putin's fault here but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been avoided.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 07:55:15 AM by Pezevenk »
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #906 on: March 03, 2022, 07:59:08 AM »
I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means.

Ok so you aren't supporting Putin,  good to know.

Since you ducked the "values" question,  let's try another tack,  can you describe for me what you think being civilized means.

? Why am I supposed to explain what I think a concept that I do not subscribe to is? I think the characterization of countries as "civilized" and "uncivilized" is altogether stupid, unhelpful to understand things and just overall propaganda, so I don't know why I am supposed to answer that. It's like me asking you to explain what you think makes Australians subhuman. You (probably) don't believe in that so it would be kinda weird if I asked you to explain why you do.
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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #907 on: March 03, 2022, 08:00:19 AM »

This is just obviously not true. Again, under Yeltsin Russia was largely controlled by the US in many ways. However it had been promised that in exchange for breaking up the Warsaw pact and handing over east Germany, NATO would not expand eastward. Then it did.

I keep hearing Putin defenders say this.  Not saying you're a Putin defender but that's who usually says this.  As far as I can tell this was something someone brought up during negotiations but it never actually made it to any formal agreement.  Am I wrong here?
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #908 on: March 03, 2022, 08:00:45 AM »
The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Being civilized is respecting the rights of others and not invading and killing your neighbours.  But I'm not fully familiar with "greek values"  maybe that's acceptable in your greek world.

Then how is Australia or the US civilized?

That's whataboutism.  You are a smart guy you can do better. 

Why are you supporting Putin's attack on Ukraine,  I'm genuinely curious?

I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means and you don't see why splitting countries into civilized and uncivilized is just propaganda and nothing more.

Can you name a country that Australia is in the middle of trying to violently overthrow and take as it's own territory?

Does it not count if it's not right now or if it is not trying to take over its territory?
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #909 on: March 03, 2022, 08:02:43 AM »
Wow, Pez thinks this action by Russia against a neighbour was caused by the west being "arrogant".. 



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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #910 on: March 03, 2022, 08:02:56 AM »

This is just obviously not true. Again, under Yeltsin Russia was largely controlled by the US in many ways. However it had been promised that in exchange for breaking up the Warsaw pact and handing over east Germany, NATO would not expand eastward. Then it did.

I keep hearing Putin defenders say this.  Not saying you're a Putin defender but that's who usually says this.  As far as I can tell this was something someone brought up during negotiations but it never actually made it to any formal agreement.  Am I wrong here?
It was a verbal agreement, not a formal one, but it's very well documented that there was this promise. They fucked up that they didn't request a written formal agreement though I don't think it would have changed that much, it would simply have been declared void like other similar accords.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #911 on: March 03, 2022, 08:04:54 AM »
Wow, Pez thinks this action by Russia against a neighbour was caused by the west being "arrogant".. 



I don't know how photos of bombed builldings change what I said, but yes, there was incredible arrogance demonstrated in the 90s and 00s. It was the time when the US thought it could be the only significant world power forever and create a unipolar world. It failed, obviously.
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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: War
« Reply #912 on: March 03, 2022, 08:07:07 AM »
I would agree that America has violated international law and human rights on many different occasions.  It's when people use this as a whataboutism to justify Russia that I think they're a Putin apologist.

On this conflict the West absolutely does have the moral high round.


No, it doesn’t in the slightest. I’m not pointing out that the west went into Iraq using a complete lie to justify what they were doing, using “shock and awe” as their MO, gleefully showing endless cam’ footage of remote destruction of bridges and other essential infrastructure, that the upshot of this wrecking of a country was the rise of ISIS and their subsequent atrocities, all predictable to anyone with the least interested in history, to say that Putin’s action is defensible.

But to point out that the above is one amongst many precedents that has normalised the might is right narrative. that just might have lead him to believe he would get away with doing the same.
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Re: War
« Reply #913 on: March 03, 2022, 08:09:12 AM »
It's so strange that anyone who has a slightly different view of the situation is instantly accused of supporting Putin and the invasion.

Remeber that time someonencondoned israel for appartuedjng the palestibains?

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #914 on: March 03, 2022, 08:11:10 AM »
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that just might have lead him to believe he would get away with doing the same.

I mean the entire justification and approach of Putin is very similar to the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999: we need to support the oppressed separatist minority, and take down the oppressive government. I don't know if he thought he could get away with it the same way, that would be very dumb of him.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #915 on: March 03, 2022, 08:15:29 AM »
Quote
that just might have lead him to believe he would get away with doing the same.

I mean the entire justification and approach of Putin is very similar to the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999: we need to support the oppressed separatist minority, and take down the oppressive government. I don't know if he thought he could get away with it the same way, that would be very dumb of him.

Nobody ever called it Yugoslavia when you had Serbian friends.  And Kosovo was all about Serbian ethnic cleansing.  Intervention was justified.
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #916 on: March 03, 2022, 08:20:38 AM »
Wow, Pez thinks this action by Russia against a neighbour was caused by the west being "arrogant".. 



I don't know how photos of bombed builldings change what I said, but yes, there was incredible arrogance demonstrated in the 90s and 00s. It was the time when the US thought it could be the only significant world power forever and create a unipolar world. It failed, obviously.

Not sure why you would think it would change something you already said.  I'm attempting ( and failing apparently) to point out that this is not a civilized response to perceived "arrogance" despite what people like John Mearsheimer might pontificate about.

This is a power play by Putin,  that takes Europe to the brink.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #917 on: March 03, 2022, 08:23:37 AM »
Nobody ever called it Yugoslavia when you had Serbian friends.
?

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And Kosovo was all about Serbian ethnic cleansing.  Intervention was justified.
Ah there you go. Oppression of kosovar albanians justified NATO bombing cities in a country that isn't part of NATO and never attacked a NATO country (therefore NATO isn't even supposed to be able to intervene) just like oppression of east Ukrainian ethnic russians justifies Putin bombing Kyiv, right? What was it he said was going on, genocide wasn't it?
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Rayzor

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Re: War
« Reply #918 on: March 03, 2022, 08:28:08 AM »

Yugoslavia was a made up country.  No Serbian would ever call themselves Yugoslav.   ( Except maybe a few die hard Serb communist party hacks )

I would have thought someone with your extensive knowledge would know this.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #919 on: March 03, 2022, 08:28:32 AM »
It's interesting that you don't think Russia had any valid security concerns at all, but Australia has a security concern because the EU (literally on the other side of the world) has a security concern because of an invasion in a country that is even not part of the EU.

I fail to see why distance matters anymore. Apart from being a major trading partners it takes people less than a day to get there from here and Russia has the capabilities to bomb the fuck out of any country it pleases in less than an hour from Putin giving an order (if he were so deranged)

Distance stopped mattering quite some time ago. Also if the EU plunged into a war with Russia, that would not only screw with the world economy for the average pleb all over the place but also interfere with trade

And like you said before, could start WW3 - of which Australia would be more than happy to supply a token force.

Also have you looked at the demographic of Australia? A lot of us have family in the EU and UK - so a lot of people would give a damn if they ended up in armed conflict with Russia



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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #920 on: March 03, 2022, 08:31:18 AM »

This is just obviously not true. Again, under Yeltsin Russia was largely controlled by the US in many ways. However it had been promised that in exchange for breaking up the Warsaw pact and handing over east Germany, NATO would not expand eastward. Then it did.

I keep hearing Putin defenders say this.  Not saying you're a Putin defender but that's who usually says this.  As far as I can tell this was something someone brought up during negotiations but it never actually made it to any formal agreement.  Am I wrong here?
It was a verbal agreement, not a formal one, but it's very well documented that there was this promise. They fucked up that they didn't request a written formal agreement though I don't think it would have changed that much, it would simply have been declared void like other similar accords.

So it's basically pillow talk then.  It's not nothing but it's not a real agreement.  If I read all of the meeting notes I'm sure I'd read a lot of soft promises that Russia made and then broke when it became inconvenient.

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #921 on: March 03, 2022, 08:33:20 AM »

Yugoslavia was a made up country.  No Serbian would ever call themselves Yugoslav.   ( Except maybe a few die hard Serb communist party hacks )

I would have thought someone with your extensive knowledge would know this.
All countries are "made up". Yugoslavia in particular was made up in 1918, obviously not by communists, and people only started very heavily leaning onto their specific identities as it started to decay pretty late in its history.

I would have thought someone with your extensive knowledge would know this.
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Crouton

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Re: War
« Reply #922 on: March 03, 2022, 08:37:43 AM »
I would agree that America has violated international law and human rights on many different occasions.  It's when people use this as a whataboutism to justify Russia that I think they're a Putin apologist.

On this conflict the West absolutely does have the moral high round.


No, it doesn’t in the slightest. I’m not pointing out that the west went into Iraq using a complete lie to justify what they were doing, using “shock and awe” as their MO, gleefully showing endless cam’ footage of remote destruction of bridges and other essential infrastructure, that the upshot of this wrecking of a country was the rise of ISIS and their subsequent atrocities, all predictable to anyone with the least interested in history, to say that Putin’s action is defensible.

But to point out that the above is one amongst many precedents that has normalised the might is right narrative. that just might have lead him to believe he would get away with doing the same.

You're of the opinion that if the US had never invaded Iraq that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine?

I think the lesson the world learned from that is you better get a nuclear arsenal or the US might invade you.

In my opinion I think looking the other way while Putin nibbled away at a lot of other territories probably had more to do with why he thought he could get away with just grabbing the entire country.
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #923 on: March 03, 2022, 08:40:02 AM »

This is just obviously not true. Again, under Yeltsin Russia was largely controlled by the US in many ways. However it had been promised that in exchange for breaking up the Warsaw pact and handing over east Germany, NATO would not expand eastward. Then it did.

I keep hearing Putin defenders say this.  Not saying you're a Putin defender but that's who usually says this.  As far as I can tell this was something someone brought up during negotiations but it never actually made it to any formal agreement.  Am I wrong here?
It was a verbal agreement, not a formal one, but it's very well documented that there was this promise. They fucked up that they didn't request a written formal agreement though I don't think it would have changed that much, it would simply have been declared void like other similar accords.

So it's basically pillow talk then.  It's not nothing but it's not a real agreement.  If I read all of the meeting notes I'm sure I'd read a lot of soft promises that Russia made and then broke when it became inconvenient.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

There wasn't a formal agreement, but now many are pretending there was never any such assurance at all, and also if you're negotiating with someone, and they (even informally) agree to do something if you don't do something, don't you think you doing that something anyways right after you said you wouldn't would maybe rile them up a bit and be seen as an aggressive move?
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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #924 on: March 03, 2022, 08:41:57 AM »
Also if the EU plunged into a war with Russia, that would not only screw with the world economy for the average pleb all over the place but also interfere with trade
The EU is currently doing a good job screwing up its economy without entering a war. I don't think people have realized how much it depends on Russian gas.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: War
« Reply #925 on: March 03, 2022, 08:42:45 AM »
I would agree that America has violated international law and human rights on many different occasions.  It's when people use this as a whataboutism to justify Russia that I think they're a Putin apologist.

On this conflict the West absolutely does have the moral high round.


No, it doesn’t in the slightest. I’m not pointing out that the west went into Iraq using a complete lie to justify what they were doing, using “shock and awe” as their MO, gleefully showing endless cam’ footage of remote destruction of bridges and other essential infrastructure, that the upshot of this wrecking of a country was the rise of ISIS and their subsequent atrocities, all predictable to anyone with the least interested in history, to say that Putin’s action is defensible.

But to point out that the above is one amongst many precedents that has normalised the might is right narrative. that just might have lead him to believe he would get away with doing the same.

You're of the opinion that if the US had never invaded Iraq that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine?

I think the lesson the world learned from that is you better get a nuclear arsenal or the US might invade you.

In my opinion I think looking the other way while Putin nibbled away at a lot of other territories probably had more to do with why he thought he could get away with just grabbing the entire country.


America also never tried to take Iraq and Afghanistan and make the territory as belonging to America. I'll grant that they tried to remove leaders that were objectively major dickwads and that it wasn't really their place and the way they went about it totally destablised the region leading to groups like ISIS but the Russian invasion of Ukraine is different in that the goal is to redraw the map and amalgamate Ukraine as part of Russias territory

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Pezevenk

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Re: War
« Reply #926 on: March 03, 2022, 08:47:35 AM »
I don't understand why people keep talking about actually taking the territory as making some kind of very significant difference. What if Putin in the end decides that he doesn't want to take Ukraine's territory, is it suddenly fine? Actually he has said he doesn't want to annex Ukraine, and he probably really doesn't want to do that, because that would be dumb and fail.
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Wolvaccine

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  • 25833
Re: War
« Reply #927 on: March 03, 2022, 08:51:59 AM »
Also if the EU plunged into a war with Russia, that would not only screw with the world economy for the average pleb all over the place but also interfere with trade
The EU is currently doing a good job screwing up its economy without entering a war. I don't think people have realized how much it depends on Russian gas.

This is just poor forward planning to not have an alternative (seems like renewables would be a good idea about now). I fail to see your point about the EU screwing up its economy

In a way, it's good to have trade with Russia. Russia can see the benefits of being a world partner and a reason to try and keep relationships cordial. And if Russia decides to go full retard, you have something you can take from them. Such as all the sanctions we have done against it.

If we had isolated Russia from the start, how could we punish them? And why would Russia care about the rest of the world? To me, it seems like the problem with Russia mainly stems from one cold hearted ex KGB stuck in the past cold war bastard, Vladimir Putin.

Germany used to be the worlds antagonist. So was Japan. But they changed course and now they are among the strongest countries in the world. Russia could be too. But you seem to argue that Russia would have to 'kowtow' or capitulate and somehow be weaker and be a victim to 'western interests' if they did so. Ever imagine that maybe if Russia did partner up or ally with 'the west' it would actually be a nicer place to live and do business with?

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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Lorddave

  • 18153
Re: War
« Reply #928 on: March 03, 2022, 08:58:42 AM »
I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means.

Ok so you aren't supporting Putin,  good to know.

Since you ducked the "values" question,  let's try another tack,  can you describe for me what you think being civilized means.
Civilized to liberals are the people who agree with you. If you disagree you are uncivilized. Simple.

As a liberal, I disagree with this... Uncivilized person...



In all seriousness, civization is a large group who has a set of agreed upon rules and conduct that is largely followed for the greater good of the group.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Wolvaccine

  • EXTRA SPICY MODE
  • 25833
Re: War
« Reply #929 on: March 03, 2022, 08:59:13 AM »
I don't understand why people keep talking about actually taking the territory as making some kind of very significant difference. What if Putin in the end decides that he doesn't want to take Ukraine's territory, is it suddenly fine? Actually he has said he doesn't want to annex Ukraine, and he probably really doesn't want to do that, because that would be dumb and fail.

You believe Putin? If all he wanted was the Donbass region, he would have just taken it like he did Crimea. Instead he is attacking from all the sides he can and is after the capital and the death or exile of its elected President

Why are you so quick to believe Putin lol

Putin probably thought Ukraine would fold like paper like Afghanistan did and as such wouldn't have the extremely heavy sanctions he has to deal with now. Like half his war chest he's saved for years now unrecoverable. At the time, he probably didn't think it would be 'dumb'. But Ukraine resisted and the world is backing their success

The fact that his soldiers are apparently starving and had no idea they would be going into such fierce resistance kind of gives away they all thought this would be a cakewalk

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place