Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase
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Gun Control

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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #810 on: December 14, 2012, 10:50:29 AM »
Quote from: hoppy on December 14, 2012, 10:43:24 AM
More guns in the hands of law abiding people could have ended this sooner. This goon new there would not be anyone to stop him.

This has been proven false over and over again.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #811 on: December 14, 2012, 10:53:28 AM »
I wonder how long it will take Fox News to claim that we shouldn't have a gun control discussion right now because it's TOO SOOON.
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Sean

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #812 on: December 14, 2012, 10:54:24 AM »
Liberals are always trying to politicize tragedy.
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #813 on: December 14, 2012, 10:54:53 AM »
With this kind of thing happening so often I can't understand how people can keep their stand on those ridiculous gun laws after all these disasters.
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #814 on: December 14, 2012, 11:10:07 AM »
I don't think the two gentlemen responsible for this would have surrendered their weapons and gone on to lead productive lives in the face of a sudden gun ban.
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #815 on: December 14, 2012, 11:13:25 AM »
They shouldn't have had guns in the first place.
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rooster

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #816 on: December 14, 2012, 11:14:01 AM »
Quote from: Saddam Hussein on December 14, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
I don't think the two gentlemen responsible for this would have surrendered their weapons and gone on to lead productive lives in the face of a sudden gun ban.
Yeah, we always come back to this argument and it is a good one. There's no way Americans would hand over their guns at this point. BUT, maybe we should get rid of the NRA and make it illegal to purchase guns at a gun show without a permit at the very least.
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Thork

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #817 on: December 14, 2012, 11:14:17 AM »
It doesn't matter how much I enjoyed hunting and shooting, I'd happily give it up because you can't trust everyone to be rational and you can do so much damage so quickly with a gun.

Surely a hobby isn't worth this?
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rooster

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #818 on: December 14, 2012, 11:20:15 AM »
Quote from: Thork on December 14, 2012, 11:14:17 AM
It doesn't matter how much I enjoyed hunting and shooting, I'd happily give it up because you can't trust everyone to be rational and you can do so much damage so quickly with a gun.

Surely a hobby isn't worth this?
I don't think so, but many people carry for protection too. You'd never be able to convince my dad to give up his multiple guns.
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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #819 on: December 14, 2012, 11:24:50 AM »
I always blame the person, never the tool. For every one person that buys a gun and murders, there are thousands that buy a gun and do no such thing. Clearly the problem is the person and not the gun. You can't remove the problem without removing the person.

Furthermore, even if one were to ban guns, it would not work. Bans do not work on a large scale. A small insignificant European country may be able to somewhat enforce a total ban, however no such thing would ever work for a larger and more industrious country.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:27:13 AM by Rushy »
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #820 on: December 14, 2012, 11:25:27 AM »
Quote from: rooster on December 14, 2012, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: Thork on December 14, 2012, 11:14:17 AM
It doesn't matter how much I enjoyed hunting and shooting, I'd happily give it up because you can't trust everyone to be rational and you can do so much damage so quickly with a gun.

Surely a hobby isn't worth this?
I don't think so, but many people carry for protection too. You'd never be able to convince my dad to give up his multiple guns.

Please do try some more, before accidents happen  :-\
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #821 on: December 14, 2012, 12:34:57 PM »
Its always tragic when something like this happens...   we need to better restrict who has guns and we should ban assault rifles.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #822 on: December 14, 2012, 01:05:46 PM »
Quote from: Rushy on December 14, 2012, 11:24:50 AM
I always blame the person, never the tool. For every one person that buys a gun and murders, there are thousands that buy a gun and do no such thing. Clearly the problem is the person and not the gun. You can't remove the problem without removing the person.

Furthermore, even if one were to ban guns, it would not work. Bans do not work on a large scale. A small insignificant European country may be able to somewhat enforce a total ban, however no such thing would ever work for a larger and more industrious country.

I don't think we should ban guns, but talking about gun control is a good idea. The people out there who don't want any controls on guns need to get a grip. There's nothing wrong with owning a gun for hunting, or self protection, or a hobby, but people need to be checked out first. We won't catch every nut, and a determined person can still get a gun, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people.
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #823 on: December 14, 2012, 01:13:48 PM »
Gun as self protection is a myth that has been countered numerous times. You are more likely to get hurt or hurt someone you know if you have a gun laying around vs if you don't have a gun laying around. Stop spreading these falsehoods.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #824 on: December 14, 2012, 01:26:41 PM »
We have guns here for all the reasons I listed, but none of them are lying around.
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #825 on: December 14, 2012, 01:27:58 PM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on December 14, 2012, 01:26:41 PM
We have guns here for all the reasons I listed, but none of them are lying around.

Please get rid of those guns. Your safety is of concern to me, I would not like to hear of you or anyone you know getting hurt due to this.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #826 on: December 14, 2012, 01:31:56 PM »
lol, I've had a gun since I was 10yrs old! Santa gave it to me for Christmas. All the guns are locked up in the safe, though. We don't necessarily think about using a gun as protection against an intruder, but it's good to have one if there's a raccoon or some other critter acting weird. There are rabies outbreaks now and then.
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #827 on: December 14, 2012, 01:47:46 PM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on December 14, 2012, 01:31:56 PM
lol, I've had a gun since I was 10yrs old! Santa gave it to me for Christmas. All the guns are locked up in the safe, though. We don't necessarily think about using a gun as protection against an intruder, but it's good to have one if there's a raccoon or some other critter acting weird. There are rabies outbreaks now and then.

SANTA GAVE YOU A GUN WHEN YOU WHERE 10? GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT BACKWARDS COUNTRY!
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sokarul

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #828 on: December 14, 2012, 02:30:25 PM »
This shooting is not about gun control.  Guns weren't the problem.  It is mental health. Look at all the shooters of past shootings.  They aren't normal people who wake up one day and feel the need to mass kill.  They have problems.  Everybody ignores the mental health problems and goes straight to guns.  This is incorrect logic.

As for this shooting, obviously reports are coming in still so I'm not going to make an absolute claim.  But they are saying he killed his dad at home and then went to the school and killed his mom and possible his mom's class. What does that have to do with guns? 

Edit: Story changed
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 02:37:50 PM by sokarul »
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #829 on: December 14, 2012, 02:43:26 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on December 14, 2012, 02:30:25 PM
This shooting is not about gun control.  Guns weren't the problem.  It is mental health. Look at all the shooters of past shootings.  They aren't normal people who wake up one day and feel the need to mass kill.  They have problems.  Everybody ignores the mental health problems and goes straight to guns.  This is incorrect logic.

As for this shooting, obviously reports are coming in still so I'm not going to make an absolute claim.  But they are saying he killed his dad at home and then went to the school and killed his mom and possible his mom's class. What does that have to do with guns? 

Edit: Story changed

What does it have to do with guns? Without it he would have made less casualties.
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sokarul

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #830 on: December 14, 2012, 02:48:19 PM »
Quote from: Beorn on December 14, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
Quote from: sokarul on December 14, 2012, 02:30:25 PM
This shooting is not about gun control.  Guns weren't the problem.  It is mental health. Look at all the shooters of past shootings.  They aren't normal people who wake up one day and feel the need to mass kill.  They have problems.  Everybody ignores the mental health problems and goes straight to guns.  This is incorrect logic.

As for this shooting, obviously reports are coming in still so I'm not going to make an absolute claim.  But they are saying he killed his dad at home and then went to the school and killed his mom and possible his mom's class. What does that have to do with guns? 

Edit: Story changed

What does it have to do with guns? Without it he would have made less casualties.
So 5 dead children is better than 18? Zero dead children is the correct answer.
A random link, cant verify anything.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/live-updates-newtown-ct-school-shooting/

Quote
4:52 p.m:   Neighbors described Adam Lanza  to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with mental illness.

It's not guns.

Look at the Jessica Ridgway case that happened here in Colorado after the movie theater shooting. 
No guns involved, she was just dismembered.
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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #831 on: December 14, 2012, 02:51:06 PM »
It is futile to argue with Beorn about this. It would be like arguing about copyrights with Parsifal.
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #832 on: December 14, 2012, 02:55:57 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on December 14, 2012, 02:48:19 PM
Quote from: Beorn on December 14, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
What does it have to do with guns? Without it he would have made less casualties.
So 5 dead children is better than 18? Zero dead children is the correct answer.
A random link, cant verify anything.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/live-updates-newtown-ct-school-shooting/

Quote
4:52 p.m:   Neighbors described Adam Lanza  to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with mental illness.

It's not guns.

Look at the Jessica Ridgway case that happened here in Colorado after the movie theater shooting. 
No guns involved, she was just dismembered.

Yes, I wish that no kids would have died. I wish that there was no suffering on earth. But since that's not going to happen, what is your problem with limiting it as much as possible?
Today something similar happened in China. Some fucker stabbed 22 children. It's a tragedy but no one died. I agree psychiatric help should be better, but I don't understand why you wouldn't want both better psychiatric help AND better control of guns.

Edit: On your
Quote
It's not guns.
I never said guns caused anything, just that they make it worse.
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Vindictus

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #833 on: December 14, 2012, 03:05:19 PM »
I don't see the point in trying to ban guns in America, it would be like trying to ban stupidity on Facebook. Guns are just too prevalent among the populace.

Even when you talk about banning the use of high powered rifles and assault rifles, I still fail to see how it will help. Australia has a total ban on these deadlier rifles (even bans on airsoft guns that look exactly like their real counterparts, for fear of being used in burglaries), but that didn't stop people from obtaining hand guns and murdering people with those (until those were restricted/banned too). Even so, our bans only worked (as in the reclamation being realistic; gun crime is falling, but was falling before the bans anyway) because we had such low gun ownership.
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #834 on: December 14, 2012, 03:09:08 PM »
Quote from: sokarul on December 14, 2012, 02:48:19 PM
So 5 dead children is better than 18?

Is this a real question? Yes 5 dead children is better than 18.

Quote from: sokarul on December 14, 2012, 02:48:19 PM
Zero dead children is the correct answer.

I agree, but what you are talking about is the crime never happening, which is a different discussion. The crime has happened, the presence of a gun directly correlates to an increase in deaths.



Quote from: sokarul on December 14, 2012, 02:48:19 PM
It's not guns.

Look at the Jessica Ridgway case that happened here in Colorado after the movie theater shooting. 
No guns involved, she was just dismembered.

What point are you trying to make here? That it is possible to harm a single person without a gun? Nobody denies this. You would have more of a case if it said that the man ran into a room with nothing but a hachet and dismembered a dozen people.
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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #835 on: December 14, 2012, 03:47:02 PM »
Quote from: EnglshGentleman on December 14, 2012, 03:09:08 PM
What point are you trying to make here? That it is possible to harm a single person without a gun? Nobody denies this. You would have more of a case if it said that the man ran into a room with nothing but a hachet and dismembered a dozen people.

http://www.whatsonjinan.com/news-3296-horrific-killing-spree-chinese-teen-kills-9-in-knife-attack-in-liaoning.html
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Beorn

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #836 on: December 14, 2012, 04:02:07 PM »
Quote from: Rushy on December 14, 2012, 03:47:02 PM
Quote from: EnglshGentleman on December 14, 2012, 03:09:08 PM
What point are you trying to make here? That it is possible to harm a single person without a gun? Nobody denies this. You would have more of a case if it said that the man ran into a room with nothing but a hachet and dismembered a dozen people.

http://www.whatsonjinan.com/news-3296-horrific-killing-spree-chinese-teen-kills-9-in-knife-attack-in-liaoning.html

Imagine how many it would have been if he had a gun.
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hoppy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #837 on: December 14, 2012, 04:29:35 PM »
Quote from: Beorn on December 14, 2012, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Rushy on December 14, 2012, 03:47:02 PM
Quote from: EnglshGentleman on December 14, 2012, 03:09:08 PM
What point are you trying to make here? That it is possible to harm a single person without a gun? Nobody denies this. You would have more of a case if it said that the man ran into a room with nothing but a hachet and dismembered a dozen people.

http://www.whatsonjinan.com/news-3296-horrific-killing-spree-chinese-teen-kills-9-in-knife-attack-in-liaoning.html
How many would he have killed if the nine had guns on them?

I wonder what kind of psychotropic drugs the Connecticut shooter was on?

Imagine how many it would have been if he had a gun.
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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #838 on: December 14, 2012, 04:29:49 PM »
Quote from: Vindictus on December 14, 2012, 03:05:19 PM
I don't see the point in trying to ban guns in America, it would be like trying to ban stupidity on Facebook. Guns are just too prevalent among the populace.

Even when you talk about banning the use of high powered rifles and assault rifles, I still fail to see how it will help. Australia has a total ban on these deadlier rifles (even bans on airsoft guns that look exactly like their real counterparts, for fear of being used in burglaries), but that didn't stop people from obtaining hand guns and murdering people with those (until those were restricted/banned too). Even so, our bans only worked (as in the reclamation being realistic; gun crime is falling, but was falling before the bans anyway) because we had such low gun ownership.
You're right. America is so full of stupid that banning guns would never work. Australia is smarter and therefore it worked here.

I feel sorry for the innocents though. Really messed up.
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Rushy

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #839 on: December 14, 2012, 04:31:25 PM »
Quote from: Beorn on December 14, 2012, 04:02:07 PM
Imagine how many it would have been if he had a gun.

Actually a teenager never would have been able to purchase a weapon in any country that allows the sale of guns. Imagine how many lives would have been saved if we banned knives?
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