Re: Space Travel, the Firmament & God

No, the rockets are real, and are really below the blue waters of the Firmament.

You keep asserting this, but you are yet to present to anything to justify it.

At no point are they ever going up through the blue ‘skies’ at all.

Really?
So just after launch, when they are quite literally going straight up, they are not going up?

They are clearly in air, which is also entirely clear as well.

You have already had that shown to be pure BS.

The blue is high above them the whole time.

Prove it.
Prove it isn't below or around them.

We see the blue high above them, so where would ‘space’ be seen?

That is a question for YOU.
How would you expect to see it given your complete lack of understanding of this?

There is no blue lower than them, it’s all high above them.

Based on what?
How are you measuring the height of the blue?

What IS faked is their ‘black space’ shots supposedly taken from the rockets!

Again, you have no basis for this?

Why would it be black across from the rockets but blue above them?

I isn't blue above them.
That is your baseless claim you are yet to justify.

Why don’t they show what it looks like above them, it should be black also!

They do, but rarely because it doesn't show anything useful normally. It is black.

It’s utterly ridiculous.

Your argument certainly is.
You fail to comprehend how seeing things work, so you repeatedly claim they are below the blue with no basis at all, and act like we should somehow see the "black" (which is really just an absence of light) coming through.

If you want to claim they are below the blue, then prove it.
If you can't, stop repeating the same BS.

Quote from: Username on April 17, 2025, 04:58:23 AM

No - he didn't destroy it. He is there to fulfill it. It is completed. He is the result of it, and accomplished its goals.

And just what is meant by "fulfill"?
Does that mean render all the old laws, allegedly perfect commandments from a perfect being, suddenly no longer valid?
That homosexuality was only an abomination worthy of death then and no longer is now?
What changed to make that the case?
Or did God just screw up with the old one and need to fix it?

Or is the appropriate interpretation that it is still bad, but you no longer need to punish people at all for anything, and Jesus can save people who repent?

Quote from: Username on April 17, 2025, 04:58:23 AM

Its not me trying to use these excuses to "discard" the old testament.

Yes, I know that loads of "Christians" use excuses to discard parts of the Bible they don't like, and ignore the logical implications of it.
The child like view is picking and choosing which parts you want to follow, yet still pretending to follow it.

Quote from: Username on April 17, 2025, 04:58:23 AM

Not religious, but also not ignorant of what I'm talking of.

Yet you seem to wilfully ignore parts I pointed out.
I am not ignorant of what I'm talking about.

I used to be a Christian, and then I looked into it more, and rejected it for the pile of garbage it is.

Quote from: Username on April 17, 2025, 04:58:23 AM

You've been here long enough to learn about the flat earth

And I have repeatedly demonstrated faults with it that FEers are unable to address.

Quote from: Username on April 17, 2025, 04:58:23 AM

I often say read a book. Its literally almost everywhere. Just pick the fucker up.

Try telling that to the "Christians". They are the ones typically not reading it.

Sorry for the late reply, had to get some Miles in.

It was wrong of me to assume your reasoning behind disagreeing with Christianity. And religion. There are a lot of real reasons that are really fucking valid people hate religion. I'm in that camp as well as this one.

There are a lot of reasons to not throw away a whole bushel when one potato is rotten too. Especially when the rest of the bushel was responsible for keeping science alive during the Dark Ages. And really most of medicine. And morality. And a good bit of philosophy. Oh there's some math in there too. And the round earth - pythagoras had quite the cult. And geneology with mendel. And the mystic of the atom. And there's Penrose. Newton held his universe together by the will of god, else it collapse. The list goes on and on. Tesla saw his wonderful motor in a dream while walking the park on[e sic] day as a vision of fiery rings in the sky.

I am ignoring those points rightfully. We are talking of what the fundamentalists believe and how they act. They (Christian fundamentalists) theoretically believe that the new testament supersedes the old. And yet ignore that not because of a regression but because of a refusal of acceptance -- yet only when its convenient. This doesn't point to it being blamed on the book itself but on the people holding onto old ideas.

And yeah its a lot more complex than that, I agree.

Oh and Yes, other sects exist and have their issues. And you are right to point them out. Its a bit aside the point though.

You might as well blame folks for coming here and arguing for Newton when I argue Relativity, to draw a thin parallel.

It was wrong of me to assume your reasoning behind disagreeing with Christianity. And religion. There are a lot of real reasons that are really fucking valid people hate religion. I'm in that camp as well as this one.

There are a lot of reasons to not throw away a whole bushel when one potato is rotten too. Especially when the rest of the bushel was responsible for keeping science alive during the Dark Ages. And really most of medicine. And morality. And a good bit of philosophy. Oh there's some math in there too. And the round earth - pythagoras had quite the cult. And geneology with mendel. And the mystic of the atom. And there's Penrose. Newton held his universe together by the will of god, else it collapse. The list goes on and on. Tesla saw his wonderful motor in a dream while walking the park on[e sic] day as a vision of fiery rings in the sky.

The distinction is in the justiifications.
People use the Bible as a source of "moral truth" to say we should do or not do things, because they Bible says so.
This is based upon the idea that the Bible is the divine word of God or divinely inspired by God.

It is based upon that authority of God.

Once you recognise any step in that process is wrong, and that the Bible is not a moral authority, you can no longer use it to justify what is in the Bible, making the Bible entirely useless for that purpose.
Sure you can read it and get some idea from it, but any attempt to justify needs to be outside the Bible.

And likewise, the idea of redemption by following it is also put into question when there is nothing outside the Bible to justify it.

This is fundamentally different to science.
Religion is built upon authority. Science is not.
Science is built upon evidence and reason.
So even if some scientist was a crackpot, we can still look at what they have done, looking for evidence and reason, to accept what is supported by evidence and reason while rejecting the rest.
We can also recognise limitations in the evidence, and expand on it with more evidence to see if it still holds under different conditions.

I am ignoring those points rightfully. We are talking of what the fundamentalists believe and how they act. They (Christian fundamentalists) theoretically believe that the new testament supersedes the old. And yet ignore that not because of a regression but because of a refusal of acceptance -- yet only when its convenient. This doesn't point to it being blamed on the book itself but on the people holding onto old ideas.

And again, it comes down to the question of in what way does it supersede it?

Does it mean all those allegedly perfect laws of God were wrong? Or just that you don't need to perform animal sacrifices to repent?

And for a simple example: The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination worthy of death.
With Jesus, the one without sin is to cast the first stone, but that doesn't mean that homosexuality is no longer worthy of death, just that sinful humans shouldn't be carrying out the sentence.

So the question is how should that command from the OT be interpreted?
That God was correct then and homosexuality is an abomination worthy of death should be opposed, but people not sentenced to death for it?
That God was wrong, and homosexuality is not an abomination and not worthy of death, so it should not be opposed?
That it was an abomination back then, but isn't now; meaning these allegedly perfect laws are subject to time which then raises the question of how we know what ones apply now vs what ones just applied back then?
That it wasn't from God, at which point how do we trust any of it?


The only way to remain remotely consistent is to either reject the Bible, or believe homosexuality is wrong and oppose it, without actually killing people for it.

Christians would say that in sending Jesus, God amended the old laws, repealing some and ordaining others. Of course, since God does not exist, what really happened was that a bunch of old farts some three thousand years ago made up a bunch of rules, and a thousand or so years later Paul didn't like those rules and he threw out some of them and made up some different ones.

Alternatively, the Marcionites believed there were two Gods. One, who made the material world, made a bunch of rules (the Mosaic Law), and another, who sent Jesus, made different rules (the rules of the N.T.)

Either way, Christians feel justified in discarding any of the O.T. rules they don't like, while keeping the ones they do. Of course, they also ignore most of the rules in the N.T., such as "Give away everything you own to the poor."

Bottom line, if you own more than the shirt on your back and a begging bowl for food and you call yourself a Christian, you're a pretty shitty one, and if Jesus were actually the Son of God you'd wind up in the lake of fire when you die. Fortunately for all of us, the whole Bible is bullshit, with some poetry and some porn mixed in. But Shakespeare wrote better poetry, and the internet has better porn, so the Bible is pretty much useless.

Caveat: The Bible is useful for one thing: If you burn pages from a Bible, the ash can be used as ink for jailhouse tattoos.

Christians would say that in sending Jesus, God amended the old laws, repealing some and ordaining others. Of course, since God does not exist, what really happened was that a bunch of old farts some three thousand years ago made up a bunch of rules, and a thousand or so years later Paul didn't like those rules and he threw out some of them and made up some different ones.

The apostle's and Paul that were assaulted and executed because they wouldn’t not renege on that Jesus rose from the dead.  Con men I know change their tune to avoid death.

Genesis 15:6
New International Version
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:1-22
New International Version
Abraham Justified by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
    whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

I can quote Jesus or quote Jesus on the prodigal son.

But I think this hints how God always wanted use to live despite giving humanity free will…

1 Samuel 8:10-22
English Standard Version
Samuel's Warning Against Kings

10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him. 11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

The Lord Grants Israel's Request

19 But the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel. And they said, “No! But there shall be a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” 21 And when Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the ears of the Lord. 22 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey their voice and make them a king.” Samuel then said to the men of Israel, “Go every man to his city.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%208%3A10-22&version=ESV

God, or no God.  People’s hearts are hard, and don’t live by faith and love. They would rather live by rule of kings and authority. 


Covid showed that.  All people with a fever had to do is stay home.  But the world tuned into mask and forced closure Nazis. Because people chose to live in fear.  For an act of nature.  So many stories of high school kids having their high school years ruined.  Especially seniors. 

Caveat: The Bible is useful for one thing: If you burn pages from a Bible, the ash can be used as ink for jailhouse tattoos.

Without faith the Bible is useless to a person. 


I know many suffering from addictions found salvation by faith based addiction programs.  I think those slobber individuals now living a slobber live would give a different testimony.  Maybe be thankful and celibate the blessing that is living slobber no matter your belief.

... slobber individuals ...
...be thankful and celibate the blessing ...

Sometimes I wonder if people are posting in a language other than their own, perhaps using an on-line translator, or if they just don't bother to read what they've written before posting. The typos can be pretty funny. If you tend to make mistakes while typing it's a good idea to use the Preview button before hitting Post.

As for the argument over works vs. faith, I would say that a person's TRUE faith will show in their actions. If you don't ACT in accord with Jesus's injunctions (e.g., give away all your wealth, truly love your enemies, refrain from judging others, etc.) then you don't TRULY have faith in him. If you have money in the bank rather than trusting God to provide, then you don't TRULY have faith in Jesus.

Of course, since there is no God it would be foolish to believe that he will provide. So I don't fault Christians for discarding all of Jesus's commandments. I just point out that they're not REALLY Christians, and if Jesus really were the Son of God they'd wind up in hell with the rest of us. Because Paul says that by faith are you saved, but it's by your ACTIONS that your TRUE faith is shown.

The apostle's and Paul that were assaulted and executed because they wouldn’t not renege on that Jesus rose from the dead.

Based on what?

But I think this hints how God always wanted use to live despite giving humanity free will…
God, or no God.  People’s hearts are hard, and don’t live by faith and love. They would rather live by rule of kings and authority. 

So your god created us wanting us to live to harm each other?
Sounds like your god is an evil POS creating sentient beings as play things.

Covid showed that.  All people with a fever had to do is stay home.  But the world tuned into mask and forced closure Nazis.

Congrats on showing a complete lack of understanding.
People are contagious before they start showing symptoms.

Without faith the Bible is useless to a person.

I would say with or without it is useless. You could use almost any book to replace it.

I know many suffering from addictions found salvation by faith based addiction programs.

You mean you found many suffering from addictions who replaced one addiction with another?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 20, 2025, 04:03:44 AM

Without faith the Bible is useless to a person.

I would say with or without it is useless. You could use almost any book to replace it.

Except for jailhouse tattoos. Only the Bible is universally printed on paper so thin that when burned it produces ash with a high enough ink content to be suitable for use in tattoos.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 20, 2025, 04:03:44 AM

I know many suffering from addictions found salvation by faith based addiction programs.

You mean you found many suffering from addictions who replaced one addiction with another?

Faith-based addiction programs have indeed helped some people to kick their drug habit. However, such programs have an extremely low long-term success rate. The confusion comes because at any given time there are a lot of people in such programs who have been clean for a few weeks or months who will enthusiastically testify to the success of the program. Once they fall off the wagon they seldom return to correct the record.

Sometimes I wonder

Which has nothing to do with faith based recovery actually helps and  rescues people from addiction where individuals fine value the Bible.

So your god created us wanting us to live to harm each other?

Now. God gave free will.  God or just creation, it’s still up to prove yourself….

Wait, no God your morality is useless. 

Anyway.  If you lock an innocent person 19 years old away in room so they stay “safe” I would call that “evil”.  But jack, it seems you are bitter because nobody locked you in a room and fed your every need to keep you safe.   I guess some people need a nanny to keep them happy. 


Sorry.  You have free will and life is a type of boot camp if you believe in “evil” God or no God.   

Faith-based addiction programs have indeed helped some people to kick their drug habit. However, such programs have an extremely low long-term success rate.

I know a number of people through faith programs that have been clean for decades.

People are contagious before they start showing symptoms.

Shrugs.  I was around people that had Covid.  No mask.  Normal social interactions.  Never caught COVID by blood antibody test. 

Sounds like your god is an evil POS creating sentient beings as play things.

Giving free will is evil?  If there is no God, the only evil is not surviving at all costs. 

And what is it with you and this piece of shit fetish?

Totally give into your anger and go original and try to be truly offensive.  You can try to claim you aren’t angry all you want Jack.  But you having to resort to calling everyone a piece of shit is truly dull and tedious. It’s a literal shit fit.  If you think God isn’t real, why insult like God was an actual being.  🤔

Quote from: magellanclavichord on April 20, 2025, 02:17:10 PM

Faith-based addiction programs have indeed helped some people to kick their drug habit. However, such programs have an extremely low long-term success rate.

I know a number of people through faith programs that have been clean for decades.

Yes, there are some. Just a very small percentage of those who enter such programs. Faith-based programs, twelve-step programs, and secular programs all have some success in getting people off of drugs. The faith-based ones are no better than the ones that do not demand faith. What it really comes down to is peer support, and it doesn't much matter what the "system" is or whether faith or religion are involved. Just the close support of others in the same struggle.

Which has nothing to do with faith based recovery actually helps and  rescues people from addiction where individuals fine value the Bible.

So the imaginary fiend helps them replace one addiction with another?
With no value from the Bible itself except the imaginary value they put into it?

God gave free will.

We have been over this before. Free will is no excuse.

If your god actually gave a damn about free will (and existed), it would protect the free will of the victims.

Your god is as loving as a parent who sits idly by while their eldest child beats, rapes and kills their younger children; even though they could intervene and stop it.
That is not a loving being.
That is an evil POS that is not worth worshipping at all.
A being so evil it would only ever be worshipped out of extreme stupidity/ignorance/brainwashing/cowardice/mallice or some combination of them.
Intelligent, rational, decent people, would never worship such a being.

And if a being knows what something will do, and still creates it, it is responsible for what it does.
So if God knows someone will be an abuser, a rapist, a murderer, a thief, and so on; and still creates them, then God is responsible for their actions.

Wait, no God your morality is useless.

We have been over this before as well.
Your evil POS does absolutely nothing for morality.
Obedience to your evil POS is no better than obedience to Hitler.

The best you get is saying all morality is useless/subjective.

If you lock an innocent person 19 years old away in room so they stay “safe” I would call that “evil”.

Just like FEers, because you can't defend your delusional BS you resort to strawmen and insults.

No one ever suggested that, or anything like that.

And no, I'm no bitter.
I'm just calling out your delusional BS, just like I do for FEers.

Shrugs.  I was around people that had Covid.  No mask.  Normal social interactions.  Never caught COVID by blood antibody test.

And just because they are contagious doesn't mean you will definitely get it.
I was around people with no symptoms at all, and still got it from them (they developed symptoms the next day).

Giving free will is evil?

No, giving free will, and then not intervening when a being that you gave free will is violating the free will of another, is evil; especially if you do so knowingly.

And again, that doesn't address all the natural suffering which isn't from free will.

If there is no God, the only evil

Again, you don't need to invoke your evil POS.
Your evil POS does NOTHING for morality.

If you think without god, the only evil is not surviving at all costs, then that means to you the only evil is not surviving at all costs.
An evil POS doesn't change this.

You can try to claim you aren’t angry all you want Jack.

And you can lie about me all you want, it wont change reality.
I'm not angry.
I don't need to be angry to calling things an evil POS.

It is to emphasise just how low in value it is.

If you think God isn’t real, why insult like God was an actual being.  🤔

I'm just honestly describing a fictional being, because crazy people have come here and pretending that fictional being is real.
I would do the same with Tom Marvella Riddle or Anakin Skywalker if people came here and started proclaiming they were great.
The only way in which your evil POS is special compared to these is that crazy people like yourself think your evil POS is real; but I'm yet to meet anyone who thinks those other fictional POS are real.

So the imaginary fiend helps them replace one addiction with another?

A physical body has to eat to survive.

A soul needs to be nourished the same way the physical body needs nourished.

What do you feed your spirit. 

Your god is as loving as a parent who sits idly by while their eldest child beats, rapes and kills their younger children; even though they could intervene and stop it.
That is not a loving being.
That is an evil POS that is not worth worshipping at all.

If you know about “such” evil, then why don’t you stop it? 


Freewill is a curse and a blessing.

And there are also many good parents that walk with Jesus. 

Now.  If the if there is only survival.  None of what you listed is evil.

Either way life is still a test defined by your heart. 





 

L but I'm yet to meet anyone who thinks those other fictional POS are real.

What’s with you and this shit fetish.

Well.  I served in the military.  I’m glad you enjoy the freedoms many swore to protect.  But it seems to make you more angry with no sense of respect for others.

Again Jack.  I’m sorry that life is a test of the soul and its endurance.  God or no God.  Maybe you should try nourishing your soul more than hating on other people for exercising freedoms that are a blessing than just keep spouting pieces of shit, pieces of shit , pieces of shit , like a broken record. 

The only person you’re hurting is yourself. 

The only way in which your evil POS is special compared to these is that crazy people like yourself think your evil POS is real;

Seeing there is something good, understanding there is a source of goodness that is something other than acts of survival, and wanting to serve that good because it feeds the spirit like food is needed to nourish our bodies (or understand that our spirit needs exercise like our bodies) is fake? 

Quote from: JackBlack on April 21, 2025, 01:56:46 PM

The only way in which your evil POS is special compared to these is that crazy people like yourself think your evil POS is real;

Seeing there is something good, understanding there is a source of goodness that is something other than acts of survival, and wanting to serve that good because it feeds the spirit like food is needed to nourish our bodies (or understand that our spirit needs exercise like our bodies) is fake? 

Goodness isn't fake (at least usually)

A physical body has to eat to survive.

Why?
Because the being you worship allegedly made it that way?

A soul needs to be nourished the same way the physical body needs nourished.

No, in a vastly different way, such as through friendship or companionship, and activities.

Quote from: JackBlack on April 21, 2025, 01:56:46 PM

Your god is as loving as a parent who sits idly by while their eldest child beats, rapes and kills their younger children; even though they could intervene and stop it.
That is not a loving being.
That is an evil POS that is not worth worshipping at all.

If you know about “such” evil, then why don’t you stop it?

You seem to have ignored a key part there.
I'm not capable of stopping it. Especially not all of it.
But your god (if it actually existed) can, the parent in that example can.
And at no significant cost to them.

Limited humans have an excuse when they are unable to stop things.
Your evil POS has no such excuse.

But notice how you are doing absolutely nothing to try to defend your evil POS now.
Instead you just deflect.
Again, just like FEers.
You can't defend your position, so you deflect.

And there are also many good parents that walk with Jesus.

There are good parents who are "Christians.
There are good parents who are not "Christians.
There are bad parents who are "Christians.
There are bad parents who are not "Christians.

But how many non-religious people hate their children for being gay?

Now.  If the if there is only survival.  None of what you listed is evil.

Again, your evil POS does nothing for morality.
The only way in which the argument you are making is in any way defensible is if you simply say that none of that is evil, and in doing so demonstrate that you are truly morally bankrupt.

But it seems to make you more angry with no sense of respect for others.

I'm not angry at all.
You are now again, acting like a FEer.
Because you can't defend your position, you just insult others.

As for respect, I respect things that are worthy of respect.
I do have a sense of respect, and that comes with sense, which means not respecting things which are not worthy of respect, especially those which promote disrespect of things without cause.

And why should I have any respect for such vile, fictional beings?
Do you respect Voldemort, or Darth Vadar?

Or are you saying I'm not respecting you because I'm being mean to your imaginary fiend?
Do you respect neo-Nazis, but not saying anything bad about Hitler?

Seeing there is something good, understanding there is a source of goodness that is something other than acts of survival, and wanting to serve that good because it feeds the spirit like food is needed to nourish our bodies (or understand that our spirit needs exercise like our bodies) is fake?

Your evil POS is not good.
It is not a source of goodness any more than people are.
Again, your god helps with nothing.

Why can't you see people as that source of goodness as something other than acts of survival?
Why does your evil POS need to be involved at all?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:14:39 PM

A physical body has to eat to survive.

Why?
Because the being you worship allegedly made it that way?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:14:39 PM

A soul needs to be nourished the same way the physical body needs nourished.

No, in a vastly different way, such as through friendship or companionship, and activities.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:14:39 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on April 21, 2025, 01:56:46 PM

Your god is as loving as a parent who sits idly by while their eldest child beats, rapes and kills their younger children; even though they could intervene and stop it.
That is not a loving being.
That is an evil POS that is not worth worshipping at all.

If you know about “such” evil, then why don’t you stop it?

You seem to have ignored a key part there.
I'm not capable of stopping it. Especially not all of it.
But your god (if it actually existed) can, the parent in that example can.
And at no significant cost to them.

Limited humans have an excuse when they are unable to stop things.
Your evil POS has no such excuse.

But notice how you are doing absolutely nothing to try to defend your evil POS now.
Instead you just deflect.
Again, just like FEers.
You can't defend your position, so you deflect.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:14:39 PM

And there are also many good parents that walk with Jesus.

There are good parents who are "Christians.
There are good parents who are not "Christians.
There are bad parents who are "Christians.
There are bad parents who are not "Christians.

But how many non-religious people hate their children for being gay?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:14:39 PM

Now.  If the if there is only survival.  None of what you listed is evil.

Again, your evil POS does nothing for morality.
The only way in which the argument you are making is in any way defensible is if you simply say that none of that is evil, and in doing so demonstrate that you are truly morally bankrupt.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:24:22 PM

But it seems to make you more angry with no sense of respect for others.

I'm not angry at all.
You are now again, acting like a FEer.
Because you can't defend your position, you just insult others.

As for respect, I respect things that are worthy of respect.
I do have a sense of respect, and that comes with sense, which means not respecting things which are not worthy of respect, especially those which promote disrespect of things without cause.

And why should I have any respect for such vile, fictional beings?
Do you respect Voldemort, or Darth Vadar?

Or are you saying I'm not respecting you because I'm being mean to your imaginary fiend?
Do you respect neo-Nazis, but not saying anything bad about Hitler?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 21, 2025, 03:42:18 PM

Seeing there is something good, understanding there is a source of goodness that is something other than acts of survival, and wanting to serve that good because it feeds the spirit like food is needed to nourish our bodies (or understand that our spirit needs exercise like our bodies) is fake?

Your evil POS is not good.
It is not a source of goodness any more than people are.
Again, your god helps with nothing.

Why can't you see people as that source of goodness as something other than acts of survival?
Why does your evil POS need to be involved at all?

Tsk, tsk, tsk Jacky boy.

Doesn't your national anthem include references to God? And this is the way you refer to God? I thought you enjoyed the freedoms, scaled legal system, and customs built from a Christian based society? You need to wash that dirty mouth of yours out, with a cake of soap.

It's like this, Jacky Boy.

If you choose to believe in God, then God is real to you.

It's as simple as that.

Doesn't your national anthem include references to God?

No, it doesn't.

I thought you enjoyed the freedoms, scaled legal system, and customs built from a Christian based society?

No, I enjoy the freedoms, legal system and customs built from rejection of key parts of Christianity.
Christianity gave us the dark ages.
The enlightenment, leading us away from Christian rule and establishing things like religious freedom, is what produced the society we have now.
It certainly isn't based upon Christianity.

It's like this, Jacky Boy.
If you choose to believe in God, then God is real to you.

All that does is show just how delusional you are.
Something is either real or not.
Believing in an imaginary fiend doesn't make it real.
It either exists regardless of if you believe in it, or it does not exist regardless of if you believe in it.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 22, 2025, 02:41:20 PM

Doesn't your national anthem include references to God?

No, it doesn't.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 22, 2025, 02:41:20 PM

I thought you enjoyed the freedoms, scaled legal system, and customs built from a Christian based society?

No, I enjoy the freedoms, legal system and customs built from rejection of key parts of Christianity.
Christianity gave us the dark ages.
The enlightenment, leading us away from Christian rule and establishing things like religious freedom, is what produced the society we have now.
It certainly isn't based upon Christianity.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 22, 2025, 02:41:20 PM

It's like this, Jacky Boy.
If you choose to believe in God, then God is real to you.

All that does is show just how delusional you are.
Something is either real or not.
Believing in an imaginary fiend doesn't make it real.
It either exists regardless of if you believe in it, or it does not exist regardless of if you believe in it.

You know what else is real, Jacky boy?

Objective reality and subjective reality. Both are real.

The globe earth is the former while the flat earth is the latter, as you are fully aware.

God is also subjective reality.

In subjective reality, anything can be quite real to the person who believes it.

The fact that a grown adult like you cannot grasp this concept, shows just how delusional you are. You dismiss all religion like you are superior to it, but instead, you're too much of an imbecile to understand it.

"Either something is real or it isn't" - what a fucking crock of shit. You're full of it.

You owe an apology to all your flat earther friends on this site for being such a total prick.

Objective reality and subjective reality. Both are real.

No. Objective reality, or more simply "reality",  is what is real.
"subjective reality" is your subjective interpretation of the world, which has no impact on what is actually real.
You believing something to exist, does not make it part of reality.

The globe earth is the former while the flat earth is the latter, as you are fully aware.

i.e. flat Earth is your own subjective belief and is not part of reality, it is not actually real.
It is just in your mind, your imagination.

The fact that a grown adult like you cannot grasp this concept, shows just how delusional you are.

Wrong again.
I fully understand.
And you are now yet again acting like a FEer.
You act like just because I don't agree with your BS, I must be too stupid or brainwashed or delusional to understand.

I understand people have beliefs about the world.
That does not make those beliefs true.
It does not mean that them believing something exists actually makes it exist.

I understand subjectivism. I understand solipsism. But if I follow that, that means what I believe is real, not what you believe, as you are just part of my subjective experience of the world.
So my perception of someone else believing a god exists does not mean a god exists.
Sure, they can claim otherwise, but that doesn't matter because they aren't mean and in this view the person I know definitely exists is me.

You dismiss all religion like you are superior to it, but instead, you're too much of an imbecile to understand it.

No, I dismiss religion for the crap it is.
And yet again, you act like a FEer, just throwing out insults because you can't defend your position.
Instead of accusing others of being an imbecile, try to explain.

You owe an apology to all your flat earther friends on this site for being such a total prick.

No, I don't.
They owe an apology to everyone for claiming Earth is flat and then refusing to defend it or admit they are wrong.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 23, 2025, 03:28:47 AM

Objective reality and subjective reality. Both are real.

No. Objective reality, or more simply "reality",  is what is real.
"subjective reality" is your subjective interpretation of the world, which has no impact on what is actually real.
You believing something to exist, does not make it part of reality.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 23, 2025, 03:28:47 AM

The globe earth is the former while the flat earth is the latter, as you are fully aware.

i.e. flat Earth is your own subjective belief and is not part of reality, it is not actually real.
It is just in your mind, your imagination.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 23, 2025, 03:28:47 AM

The fact that a grown adult like you cannot grasp this concept, shows just how delusional you are.

Wrong again.
I fully understand.
And you are now yet again acting like a FEer.
You act like just because I don't agree with your BS, I must be too stupid or brainwashed or delusional to understand.

I understand people have beliefs about the world.
That does not make those beliefs true.
It does not mean that them believing something exists actually makes it exist.

I understand subjectivism. I understand solipsism. But if I follow that, that means what I believe is real, not what you believe, as you are just part of my subjective experience of the world.
So my perception of someone else believing a god exists does not mean a god exists.
Sure, they can claim otherwise, but that doesn't matter because they aren't mean and in this view the person I know definitely exists is me.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 23, 2025, 03:28:47 AM

You dismiss all religion like you are superior to it, but instead, you're too much of an imbecile to understand it.

No, I dismiss religion for the crap it is.
And yet again, you act like a FEer, just throwing out insults because you can't defend your position.
Instead of accusing others of being an imbecile, try to explain.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 23, 2025, 03:28:47 AM

You owe an apology to all your flat earther friends on this site for being such a total prick.

No, I don't.
They owe an apology to everyone for claiming Earth is flat and then refusing to defend it or admit they are wrong.

If subjective reality has no impact on what is real, can you explain why people the world over attend church on Sundays? Did you know churches are real places in our real world where people really go to sing praises to a higher being and think about that higher being?

Can you explain why the flat earth society is a place on the internet where you can really visit? Again, real people who really think the earth is fucking flat and they have been lied to their entire lives about the shape of the earth. Do you think that doesn't have an impact on the real world around them, with all those delusional thoughts?

You wouldn't even be here if you didn't think the backward thinking of believing earth were flat, offered some danger to the real world if the idea were accepted by too many people.

Religion being crap is your subjective reality. I'm sure you are quite happy to objectively celebrate Christmas and Easter which are a result of religion.  I know you simultaneously call religion crap and God a piece of shit at every opportunity. That makes you a hypocrite on top of every other name I've already called you, doesn't it?

But, you want to know the real kicker? The objectively real kicker?

I use my belief in a higher being to great effect in my everyday work. My subjective reality intersects often with objective reality.

Your next sentence will be, "Prove it." Unfortunately, no example I can provide will ever prove it to you.

Maybe you can devise a way?

can you explain why people the world over attend church on Sundays

Do you mean in objective reality, or just in their head?

Perhaps impact wasn't the best wording.
Yes, people's beliefs and feeling can impact what they do in the real world.
But them believing something is real does not make it real.

Religion being crap is your subjective reality.

I would say it is quite objective.
Religions are not based upon reliable evidence, directly contradict reality and have caused so much harm to people.

I'm sure you are quite happy to objectively celebrate Christmas and Easter

Which are a result of the seasons.
Christmas being a celebration about the ending of winter.
Easter being about spring and fertility and birth.

And before you try to play that game, just ask what people celebrate then. Especially people like me.

For Easter it would be things like chocolate eggs, a few days off and maybe going to the Easter show.
What does that have to do with Christianity? Nothing.
Even hot cross buns aren't from Christianity.

As for Christmas, again, most of what people do aren't about Christianity.

They are not Christian holidays. They are holidays that have been stolen by Christianity to try to convert pagans.
Christianity stealing these and perverting them does not mean they are a result of religion.
The hypocrites are all the Christians who celebrate it, pretending it is a Christian celebration, while going along with so many pagan rituals.

But, you want to know the real kicker? The objectively real kicker?
I use my belief in a higher being to great effect in my everyday work.

No, that isn't objectively real.
That is your belief.

Unless you can demonstrate how your belief itself is causing impact it is really nothing.
And even if you do that, it is still just your belief, not the actual being you believe exists.

Quote from: Username on April 19, 2025, 02:04:51 AM

It was wrong of me to assume your reasoning behind disagreeing with Christianity. And religion. There are a lot of real reasons that are really fucking valid people hate religion. I'm in that camp as well as this one.

There are a lot of reasons to not throw away a whole bushel when one potato is rotten too. Especially when the rest of the bushel was responsible for keeping science alive during the Dark Ages. And really most of medicine. And morality. And a good bit of philosophy. Oh there's some math in there too. And the round earth - pythagoras had quite the cult. And geneology with mendel. And the mystic of the atom. And there's Penrose. Newton held his universe together by the will of god, else it collapse. The list goes on and on. Tesla saw his wonderful motor in a dream while walking the park on[e sic] day as a vision of fiery rings in the sky.

The distinction is in the justiifications.
People use the Bible as a source of "moral truth" to say we should do or not do things, because they Bible says so.
This is based upon the idea that the Bible is the divine word of God or divinely inspired by God.

It is based upon that authority of God.

Once you recognise any step in that process is wrong, and that the Bible is not a moral authority, you can no longer use it to justify what is in the Bible, making the Bible entirely useless for that purpose.
Sure you can read it and get some idea from it, but any attempt to justify needs to be outside the Bible.

When folks use the Bible as such, for example to put down homosexuality or cheating on your wife, they are doing so against what the Bible actually says and against many times what their own sect says they believe.

And likewise, the idea of redemption by following it is also put into question when there is nothing outside the Bible to justify it.

I mean there is plenty of historical example of redemption coming from Christianity over the last 2000 years. Saying there is nothing is a bit silly, and not entirely honest imo. Are there bad examples to? Sure.

This is fundamentally different to science.
Religion is built upon authority. Science is not.

It matters a great deal what you mean by religion here. Do you doubt folks have legitimate religious experiences? Mystical ones?

Science is built upon evidence and reason.
So even if some scientist was a crackpot, we can still look at what they have done, looking for evidence and reason, to accept what is supported by evidence and reason while rejecting the rest.
We can also recognise limitations in the evidence, and expand on it with more evidence to see if it still holds under different conditions.

Yes, its a great tool for a different problem.

Quote from: Username on April 19, 2025, 02:04:51 AM

I am ignoring those points rightfully. We are talking of what the fundamentalists believe and how they act. They (Christian fundamentalists) theoretically believe that the new testament supersedes the old. And yet ignore that not because of a regression but because of a refusal of acceptance -- yet only when its convenient. This doesn't point to it being blamed on the book itself but on the people holding onto old ideas.

And again, it comes down to the question of in what way does it supersede it?

By fundamentalists own theology. By their own words. We don't have to ask about the general case, we are looking at a very specific case around fundamentalists.

Does it mean all those allegedly perfect laws of God were wrong? Or just that you don't need to perform animal sacrifices to repent?

And for a simple example: The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination worthy of death.
With Jesus, the one without sin is to cast the first stone, but that doesn't mean that homosexuality is no longer worthy of death, just that sinful humans shouldn't be carrying out the sentence.

Does it surprise you certain moral laws would be more useful back then than now? Would be more morally true?

Eating certain meats, for example, or even homosexuality which carried with it a different set of "issues" today than it does then. Your premise hinges on the belief that morality does not and should not change and is absolute. That is an open question and it could very well be relative. I would suspect you might even agree that its relative.

So the question is how should that command from the OT be interpreted?
That God was correct then and homosexuality is an abomination worthy of death should be opposed, but people not sentenced to death for it?
That God was wrong, and homosexuality is not an abomination and not worthy of death, so it should not be opposed?
That it was an abomination back then, but isn't now; meaning these allegedly perfect laws are subject to time which then raises the question of how we know what ones apply now vs what ones just applied back then?
That it wasn't from God, at which point how do we trust any of it?


The only way to remain remotely consistent is to either reject the Bible, or believe homosexuality is wrong and oppose it, without actually killing people for it.

Or you can agree with theology behind the New Covenant which places the old laws "irrelevant" to this time.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 24, 2025, 11:41:45 PM

can you explain why people the world over attend church on Sundays

Do you mean in objective reality, or just in their head?

Perhaps impact wasn't the best wording.
Yes, people's beliefs and feeling can impact what they do in the real world.
But them believing something is real does not make it real.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 24, 2025, 11:41:45 PM

Religion being crap is your subjective reality.

I would say it is quite objective.
Religions are not based upon reliable evidence, directly contradict reality and have caused so much harm to people.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 24, 2025, 11:41:45 PM

I'm sure you are quite happy to objectively celebrate Christmas and Easter

Which are a result of the seasons.
Christmas being a celebration about the ending of winter.
Easter being about spring and fertility and birth.

And before you try to play that game, just ask what people celebrate then. Especially people like me.

For Easter it would be things like chocolate eggs, a few days off and maybe going to the Easter show.
What does that have to do with Christianity? Nothing.
Even hot cross buns aren't from Christianity.

As for Christmas, again, most of what people do aren't about Christianity.

They are not Christian holidays. They are holidays that have been stolen by Christianity to try to convert pagans.
Christianity stealing these and perverting them does not mean they are a result of religion.
The hypocrites are all the Christians who celebrate it, pretending it is a Christian celebration, while going along with so many pagan rituals.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 24, 2025, 11:41:45 PM

But, you want to know the real kicker? The objectively real kicker?
I use my belief in a higher being to great effect in my everyday work.

No, that isn't objectively real.
That is your belief.

Unless you can demonstrate how your belief itself is causing impact it is really nothing.
And even if you do that, it is still just your belief, not the actual being you believe exists.

One of the conundrums with belief in a higher being and belief, is one can never really be sure if it's the higher being believed in, doing any response, or the belief in the higher being and belief in a specific outcome, which is the prime mover. Belief itself, I think, is that powerful. Combined with the concept of a higher being, I think the power of belief, is amplified. Maybe it's amplified by the mere visualisation of an authority figure seated on a throne.

Flat earthers get too caught up in the size of Earth and the universe, and so, never really invest themselves in exploring the power of belief or the power of believing in a higher being. It's unfortunate.

Christmas has the word "Christ" in the very name, and you still argue it has nothing to do with Christianity and Jesus the Christ! Even Easter, you pretend has nothing to do with Christianity and the cruxifuxion of Jesus Christ. You really are just like a flat earther, unable to accept reality, aren't you? For you, how these holidays are totally unrelated to Christianity, is your subjective reality. All you see is presents and chocolate Easter eggs.

Maybe I could employ my subjective belief in a higher being technique with your permission, to demonstrate impact in the real world with you? It might be fun.

I could send you an image by way of thought, or you could invite me to describe the painting on the wall near your computer, as an example.

Again, such a thing requires your permission and cooperation, and being shall we say, a "non-believer" I'm doubtful you'd even say yes. Besides, my technique involves liaising with your higher being. 

But, it's all my subjective reality, right? You or I having a higher being can never be objectively proven, can it? My subjective reality could never affect your objective reality, could it?

Being on this forum is likely an escape from reality for you. The possibility that a person or bot, or words on a screen could objectively affect your real world probably scares the shit out of you and you want no part of it.

But, here's the next kicker. My thoughts and energy go into the words I type here in reply to you, which I know you will read, and vice versa. So, you and I, are already affecting each other's objective reality because reading, and even interacting on a forum in dialogue, generates thoughts. The time it requires to read posts and type posts, also uses up objectively real time, on both sides.