The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2024, 02:48:38 AM »


You are talking about a different community than this one,

No.  I was referring to a large segment of flat earth believers that have the largest presence online. 

Anyway.  It highlights how the flat earth community can’t come up with a coherent model. It’s an ad hoc reaction to do anything to ignore the true accuracy of the heliocentric model.  Where you yourself can only make “flat earth work” by trying to bring it closer and closer to the heliocentric model.  But then really kill your own model by ignoring stuff like there are differences in the acceleration rates of gravity across the globe.

Quote
The Weird And Wild Story Behind The Mason-Dixon Line

https://www.iflscience.com/the-weird-and-wild-story-behind-the-mason-dixon-line-76032


See, to find the vertical axis, the pair had been using what’s known as a “plumb bob” – basically a weight on a string. The problem, though, is that variations in the landscape – mountains, valleys, and even long-lost ancient glacial sheets – can change how strong or weak gravity is in an area.

It’s not by enough for you or us to feel it, but it was enough to affect the plumb bob.




Flat earth suffers from the same things as cryptozoology, ufology, the 9/11 truth movement.  The inability to police themselves, with people claiming any outrages things to gain fortune and fame to a target audience that only believe reality is fake.  And they are only the special ones special enough to see that. 

And that’s the problem.  It’s not about “community than this one”.  It’s about coming to a consensus with a model which more accurately predicts our reality.  Flat earth fails. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 02:52:10 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2024, 05:05:50 AM »

Is any other Flat Earth group so known that mainstream bands are making songs dedicated to their name?

It’s more than that.

Answer two simple questions. 

What’s the exact distance to the sun.  Something that should now be easily triangulated in a manner of hours.

What’s the most accurate map of the world .  One that represents and accurately shows distances and travel times. 

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Smoke Machine

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2024, 09:44:30 AM »
You are talking about a different community than this one, so it's irrelevant to us that a different community thinks that it is impossible. Most of the FE'ers here are familiar with the Bi-Polar model and would not say that it is impossible on a FE.
I hate to break it to you Tom, but that "different community" is much larger and more influential than this one, so maybe you should familiarize them with your bi-polar model and see if it gets any better traction out there then it has here.

They are not more influential. Every time they talk to the media they preface that they are not the Flat Earth Society, because the Flat Earth Society is the default group the public would assume they are part of. Thus, the Flat Earth Society is far more known than they are.

We don't talk to the media much, but in such an interview would TFES John Davis have to disclaim that he is not part of a different group? No.

Is any other Flat Earth group so known that mainstream bands are making songs dedicated to their name? No.

Do other groups have sections in school books dedicated to their group by name? No.

It's not even a contest. TFES far and away wins in name recognition, even if recent leaderships have chosen not to engage the media much. We are in the public and academic foundation of knowledge, whereas others are essentially unknown in that space. I think last year we saw that this website and the tfes.org wiki were getting about 10K visitors a month combined. Few of the visitors actually create a forum account and most prefer to be site or forum observers. A magnitude more of the public prefers to just read about the TFES from articles and books, which they assume to be authoritative sources, rather than come and find us.

I'm sure a lot of people are curious if they could live their lives in the flat earth headspace, and so check it out.

My argument ofcourse, is mostly everybody already does in their immediate surroundings. The difference being they don't all get obsessed and sucked into the cult of needing to argue the entire world is an ill defined flat surface and definitely not a globe.

The final experiment aims to prove Antarctica cannot be an ice ring wall around a Gleesons map of the world.

That only leaves the Arctic circle being the ice ring around the dinner plate world, with Antarctica in the centre. Yet, planes fly over the Arctic circle every day of the week and the distance does not equal the required massive distance for it to be the ice ring wall of ice.

Two popular flat earth alternative models destroyed.

Do you have a third flat earth alternative ready to dispatch to the flat earth masses?
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Username

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2024, 10:03:11 AM »


You are talking about a different community than this one,

No.  I was referring to a large segment of flat earth believers that have the largest presence online. 
That would be us. Unless of course your are talking about a different community than this one. Which would be us.

Quote
Anyway.  It highlights how the flat earth community can’t come up with a coherent model. It’s an ad hoc reaction to do anything to ignore the true accuracy of the heliocentric model.  Where you yourself can only make “flat earth work” by trying to bring it closer and closer to the heliocentric model.  But then really kill your own model by ignoring stuff like there are differences in the acceleration rates of gravity across the globe.
How do you reconcile your hatred for ad hoc hypotheses with the fact that round earth science would not exist without use of them constantly?


Is any other Flat Earth group so known that mainstream bands are making songs dedicated to their name?

It’s more than that.

Answer two simple questions. 

What’s the exact distance to the sun.  Something that should now be easily triangulated in a manner of hours.

What’s the most accurate map of the world .  One that represents and accurately shows distances and travel times. 
ITs more than that.

What shape are life savers? What time is it?


Look I can ask irrelevant re-questions as well. You are just mad you are rightfully being pointed out for constantly supplying strawmen because you are too lazy to learn what those you are supposedly arguing with actually believe because you are a...


Survey says....

If you can't argue both sidess, you undrstand neither

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Username

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2024, 10:10:24 AM »
You are talking about a different community than this one, so it's irrelevant to us that a different community thinks that it is impossible. Most of the FE'ers here are familiar with the Bi-Polar model and would not say that it is impossible on a FE.
I hate to break it to you Tom, but that "different community" is much larger and more influential than this one, so maybe you should familiarize them with your bi-polar model and see if it gets any better traction out there then it has here.

They are not more influential. Every time they talk to the media they preface that they are not the Flat Earth Society, because the Flat Earth Society is the default group the public would assume they are part of. Thus, the Flat Earth Society is far more known than they are.

We don't talk to the media much, but in such an interview would TFES John Davis have to disclaim that he is not part of a different group? No.

Is any other Flat Earth group so known that mainstream bands are making songs dedicated to their name? No.

Do other groups have sections in school books dedicated to their group by name? No.

It's not even a contest. TFES far and away wins in name recognition, even if recent leaderships have chosen not to engage the media much. We are in the public and academic foundation of knowledge, whereas others are essentially unknown in that space. I think last year we saw that this website and the tfes.org wiki were getting about 10K visitors a month combined. Few of the visitors actually create a forum account and most prefer to be site or forum observers. A magnitude more of the public prefers to just read about the TFES from articles and books, which they assume to be authoritative sources, rather than come and find us.

I'm sure a lot of people are curious if they could live their lives in the flat earth headspace, and so check it out.

My argument ofcourse, is mostly everybody already does in their immediate surroundings. The difference being they don't all get obsessed and sucked into the cult of needing to argue the entire world is an ill defined flat surface and definitely not a globe.

The final experiment aims to prove Antarctica cannot be an ice ring wall around a Gleesons map of the world.

That only leaves the Arctic circle being the ice ring around the dinner plate world, with Antarctica in the centre. Yet, planes fly over the Arctic circle every day of the week and the distance does not equal the required massive distance for it to be the ice ring wall of ice.

Two popular flat earth alternative models destroyed.

Do you have a third flat earth alternative ready to dispatch to the flat earth masses?

Not only would that not prove what you claim it does, you know there are plenty of other models that explain the situation equally or better.

Theoretically, there is of course infinite.
If you can't argue both sidess, you undrstand neither

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2024, 10:30:46 AM »


They are not more influential. Every time they talk to the media they preface that they are not the Flat Earth Society, because the Flat Earth Society is the default group the public would assume they are part of. Thus, the Flat Earth Society is far more known than they are.

We don't talk to the media much, but in such an interview would TFES John Davis have to disclaim that he is not part of a different group? No.

Is any other Flat Earth group so known that mainstream bands are making songs dedicated to their name? No.

Do other groups have sections in school books dedicated to their group by name? No.

It's not even a contest. TFES far and away wins in name recognition, even if recent leaderships have chosen not to engage the media much. We are in the public and academic foundation of knowledge, whereas others are essentially unknown in that space. I think last year we saw that this website and the tfes.org wiki were getting about 10K visitors a month combined. Few of the visitors actually create a forum account and most prefer to be site or forum observers. A magnitude more of the public prefers to just read about the TFES from articles and books, which they assume to be authoritative sources, rather than come and find us.

I have a backlog of questions. First, the following:

The Rim Earth Model as I call it, is far and away the best known FE model. The overwhelming majority of people who are somewhat familiar with FE believe all FEers adhere to the Rim Earth. These people are going to believe that FE as a whole has been debunked by the Final Experiment.



It is as worthwhile as anything else to demonstrate that Rim Earth isn't the correct model. Any society that wants to be taken seriously has a duty to put the record straight when their area of interest is at risk of misunderstanding. Why didn't FES participate in the Experiment?

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2024, 10:35:35 AM »
If you read the journal Earth Not a Globe Review, you will find that flat earthers already sent people down there to Antarctica in the 1920's, who reported a 24 hour sun. This is why the flat earth society at the time, the Universal Zetetic Society, switched to the Bi-Polar model.



What do you say to people who claim to have flown from South America to Australia?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2024, 11:10:54 AM »
No.  I was referring to a large segment of flat earth believers that have the largest presence online.

You would be wrong about "largest presence online". I welcome you to perform a Google search for Flat Earth Society and compare the number of results you get to the number of results for the name of any other Flat Earth group.

I will even allow you to gather as many Flat Earth group names as you can and compare the combined number of all of them to Flat Earth Society.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Anyway.  It highlights how the flat earth community can’t come up with a coherent model. It’s an ad hoc reaction to do anything to ignore the true accuracy of the heliocentric model.  Where you yourself can only make “flat earth work” by trying to bring it closer and closer to the heliocentric model.  But then really kill your own model by ignoring stuff like there are differences in the acceleration rates of gravity across the globe.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The Weird And Wild Story Behind The Mason-Dixon Line

https://www.iflscience.com/the-weird-and-wild-story-behind-the-mason-dixon-line-76032


See, to find the vertical axis, the pair had been using what’s known as a “plumb bob” – basically a weight on a string. The problem, though, is that variations in the landscape – mountains, valleys, and even long-lost ancient glacial sheets – can change how strong or weak gravity is in an area.

It’s not by enough for you or us to feel it, but it was enough to affect the plumb bob.


This is addressed here: https://wiki.tfes.org/Isostasy

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Flat earth suffers from the same things as cryptozoology, ufology, the 9/11 truth movement.  The inability to police themselves, with people claiming any outrages things to gain fortune and fame to a target audience that only believe reality is fake.  And they are only the special ones special enough to see that. 

And that’s the problem.  It’s not about “community than this one”.  It’s about coming to a consensus with a model which more accurately predicts our reality.  Flat earth fails.

Considering that no one has been able to combat the tfes wiki with comparable information which contradicts its sources, it really looks like we are winning to me.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 11:25:14 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Smoke Machine

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2024, 11:29:50 AM »
You are talking about a different community than this one, so it's irrelevant to us that a different community thinks that it is impossible. Most of the FE'ers here are familiar with the Bi-Polar model and would not say that it is impossible on a FE.
I hate to break it to you Tom, but that "different community" is much larger and more influential than this one, so maybe you should familiarize them with your bi-polar model and see if it gets any better traction out there then it has here.

They are not more influential. Every time they talk to the media they preface that they are not the Flat Earth Society, because the Flat Earth Society is the default group the public would assume they are part of. Thus, the Flat Earth Society is far more known than they are.

We don't talk to the media much, but in such an interview would TFES John Davis have to disclaim that he is not part of a different group? No.

Is any other Flat Earth group so known that mainstream bands are making songs dedicated to their name? No.

Do other groups have sections in school books dedicated to their group by name? No.

It's not even a contest. TFES far and away wins in name recognition, even if recent leaderships have chosen not to engage the media much. We are in the public and academic foundation of knowledge, whereas others are essentially unknown in that space. I think last year we saw that this website and the tfes.org wiki were getting about 10K visitors a month combined. Few of the visitors actually create a forum account and most prefer to be site or forum observers. A magnitude more of the public prefers to just read about the TFES from articles and books, which they assume to be authoritative sources, rather than come and find us.

I'm sure a lot of people are curious if they could live their lives in the flat earth headspace, and so check it out.

My argument ofcourse, is mostly everybody already does in their immediate surroundings. The difference being they don't all get obsessed and sucked into the cult of needing to argue the entire world is an ill defined flat surface and definitely not a globe.

The final experiment aims to prove Antarctica cannot be an ice ring wall around a Gleesons map of the world.

That only leaves the Arctic circle being the ice ring around the dinner plate world, with Antarctica in the centre. Yet, planes fly over the Arctic circle every day of the week and the distance does not equal the required massive distance for it to be the ice ring wall of ice.

Two popular flat earth alternative models destroyed.

Do you have a third flat earth alternative ready to dispatch to the flat earth masses?

Not only would that not prove what you claim it does, you know there are plenty of other models that explain the situation equally or better.

Theoretically, there is of course infinite.

I'm interested to hear what your standard of proof is?

Planes have a finite amount of fuel, a finite maximum flying distance, fly at a standard cruising speed, have a maximum flying speed, and have minimum finite flight times between destinations including destinations on either side of the Arctic circle. The bi-polar flat earth map is suffering from bi-polar. It's impossible.

Please produce another flat earth model that explains the situation equally or better, and be prepared to defend it.

Are yes, the infinite model existing in "theory". You mean in theory beyond the Antarctic ice ring wall which the final experiment is dispelling as we speak and the Arctic ice ring wall which I have just casually destroyed? Looks like I just dispelled that theory, too, sorry! I thought you flat earthers were skilled debaters in this area?

For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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JackBlack

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2024, 11:44:20 AM »
This is why the flat earth society at the time, the Universal Zetetic Society, switched to the Bi-Polar model
And as has been explained repeatedly, all that does is push the problem elsewhere. Commonly to the Pacific Ocean.
But countless flights between Australia and North America demonstrate that model is not correct either.

There is also no indication of an official switch to that model, rather than you just bringing it up when you need to explain Antarctica and the south celestial pole, only to discard it when it is no longer convenient.

Your maps page (Flat Earth Maps) even says:
Quote
Generally speaking, the main point of contention among Flat Earthers is the several theories concerning the nature and extent of Antarctica, as well as the overall layout of the continents.

Many believe that Antarctica is the Ice Wall encountered by Sir James Clark Ross, whereas some believe that Antarctica is simply a 'rim continent' surrounding the known Earth and that the term Ice Wall is misleading. Others believe that Antarctica is an isolated and distinct continent and that though an Ice Wall exists, it is not Antarctica. The latter model generally assumes that the geography of the Earth is quite different to that outlined in the conventional model.

Below are images of the two Flat Earth geographic models, which convey the different concepts of Antarctica within Flat Earth Theory:

And if we go to the FAQ (Flat Earth - Frequently Asked Questions) we even see it far more clearly:
Quote
What does the Earth look like? How is circumnavigation possible?
As seen in the diagrams above, the Earth is in the form of a disk with the North Pole in the center and Antarctica as a wall surrounding the known continents. This is the generally accepted model among members of the society. In this model, circumnavigation is performed by moving in a great circle around the North Pole.

The Earth is surrounded on all sides by an ice wall that holds the oceans back. This ice wall is what explorers have named Antarctica. Beyond the ice wall is a topic of great interest to the Flat Earth Society. To our knowledge, no one has been very far past the ice wall and returned to tell of their journey. What we do know is that it encircles the earth and serves to hold in our oceans and helps protect us from whatever lies beyond.
So instead of switching to a bi-polar model, you appear to have the monopole model as the main model your society uses, including boldly claiming to know there is an ice wall that surrounds Earth and that is named Antarctica; which would exclude the bipolar model.

So if you want to say you have switched to the bipolar model, perhaps you should update your FAQ to clearly say the monopole model is wrong, that Antarctica is a continent in the south, which contains the south pole?

This "Final Experiment" will merely vindicate what I have been saying for 14 years about which Flat Earth model to use.
And the correct answer to that is none of them.

You can see the suns bunching up in the Analemma at the ends of it. They are not equally spaced
Yes, just like you expect for a RE, and something which has no connection at all to the FE, as you can just arbitrarily have the sun change its speed for no reason as there is no reason for the path of the sun in the FE.
It also has absolutely no connection to the bipolar model.

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2024, 04:02:56 PM »
Livestrream:


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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2024, 07:00:47 PM »
This is why the flat earth society at the time, the Universal Zetetic Society, switched to the Bi-Polar model
And as has been explained repeatedly, all that does is push the problem elsewhere. Commonly to the Pacific Ocean.
But countless flights between Australia and North America demonstrate that model is not correct either.

Commercial flights are not a scientific instrument to measure the earth - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

There are many variables outside of geography which determines flight routes and flight times.

Planes are highly sensitive to the winds along their path. If I stir a bucket of water with a wooden spoon, the velocity of the water at the edges is greater than the center, showing that winds could be traveling faster closer to the edges of a flat earth model. We know that the flights depend on the movement of air for their specific routes, such as jet streams and known optimal paths, so any analysis needs a way to identify the influence of the permanent weather systems.

Quote
There is also no indication of an official switch to that model, rather than you just bringing it up when you need to explain Antarctica and the south celestial pole, only to discard it when it is no longer convenient.

Your maps page (Flat Earth Maps) even says:

Quote
Generally speaking, the main point of contention among Flat Earthers is the several theories concerning the nature and extent of Antarctica, as well as the overall layout of the continents.

Many believe that Antarctica is the Ice Wall encountered by Sir James Clark Ross, whereas some believe that Antarctica is simply a 'rim continent' surrounding the known Earth and that the term Ice Wall is misleading. Others believe that Antarctica is an isolated and distinct continent and that though an Ice Wall exists, it is not Antarctica. The latter model generally assumes that the geography of the Earth is quite different to that outlined in the conventional model.

Below are images of the two Flat Earth geographic models, which convey the different concepts of Antarctica within Flat Earth Theory:

At the bottom of that page in the bipolar section it says that many flat earthers diverged from Rowbotham's work. This means that it's your fault if you use an old model that others have moved on from.

Quote
So if you want to say you have switched to the bipolar model, perhaps you should update your FAQ to clearly say the monopole model is wrong, that Antarctica is a continent in the south, which contains the south pole?

The monopole model is the main and classical model, wrong or not. You are the child who came to me wanting to learn about this. In Physics, you need to teach children the classical Newtonian model before you get to Relativity. Relativity still has not replaced classical Newtonian physics as the "main" model that is taught in schools, even though the school's academics agree that Einstein discredited a lot of what Newton said.

Quote
Yes, just like you expect for a RE, and something which has no connection at all to the FE, as you can just arbitrarily have the sun change its speed for no reason as there is no reason for the path of the sun in the FE.
It also has absolutely no connection to the bipolar model.

The displaced nature of the sun images in the Analemma proves that the sun does change speed.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 07:07:07 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Smoke Machine

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2024, 08:07:01 PM »
This is why the flat earth society at the time, the Universal Zetetic Society, switched to the Bi-Polar model
And as has been explained repeatedly, all that does is push the problem elsewhere. Commonly to the Pacific Ocean.
But countless flights between Australia and North America demonstrate that model is not correct either.

Commercial flights are not a scientific instrument to measure the earth - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

There are many variables outside of geography which determines flight routes and flight times.

Planes are highly sensitive to the winds along their path. If I stir a bucket of water with a wooden spoon, the velocity of the water at the edges is greater than the center, showing that winds could be traveling faster closer to the edges of a flat earth model. We know that the flights depend on the movement of air for their specific routes, such as jet streams and known optimal paths, so any analysis needs a way to identify the influence of the permanent weather systems.

Quote
There is also no indication of an official switch to that model, rather than you just bringing it up when you need to explain Antarctica and the south celestial pole, only to discard it when it is no longer convenient.

Your maps page (Flat Earth Maps) even says:

Quote
Generally speaking, the main point of contention among Flat Earthers is the several theories concerning the nature and extent of Antarctica, as well as the overall layout of the continents.

Many believe that Antarctica is the Ice Wall encountered by Sir James Clark Ross, whereas some believe that Antarctica is simply a 'rim continent' surrounding the known Earth and that the term Ice Wall is misleading. Others believe that Antarctica is an isolated and distinct continent and that though an Ice Wall exists, it is not Antarctica. The latter model generally assumes that the geography of the Earth is quite different to that outlined in the conventional model.

Below are images of the two Flat Earth geographic models, which convey the different concepts of Antarctica within Flat Earth Theory:

At the bottom of that page in the bipolar section it says that many flat earthers diverged from Rowbotham's work. This means that it's your fault if you use an old model that others have moved on from.

Quote
So if you want to say you have switched to the bipolar model, perhaps you should update your FAQ to clearly say the monopole model is wrong, that Antarctica is a continent in the south, which contains the south pole?

The monopole model is the main and classical model, wrong or not. You are the child who came to me wanting to learn about this. In Physics, you need to teach children the classical Newtonian model before you get to Relativity. Relativity still has not replaced classical Newtonian physics as the "main" model that is taught in schools, even though the school's academics agree that Einstein discredited a lot of what Newton said.

Quote
Yes, just like you expect for a RE, and something which has no connection at all to the FE, as you can just arbitrarily have the sun change its speed for no reason as there is no reason for the path of the sun in the FE.
It also has absolutely no connection to the bipolar model.

The displaced nature of the sun images in the Analemma proves that the sun does change speed.

Is a wooden ruler a scientific instrument used when you want to measure a straight line on a piece of paper? Is a motor vehicle a scientific instrument when travelling between two cities at a constant speed? A plane is equally a measuring instrument.

Winds or air movement around the edge of an overturned frisbee can only be in one direction at a time. Flights over the arctic circle are in all directions every day. Plus, if your wind speed is a factor, it would massively affect planes when landing back on the ground.

You can argue merit for Earth being any flat 2 dimensional shape you want, with any combination of arrangement of the continents, and still there is only one Earth shape that works completely.

You should be arguing flat earth is a frame of mind, not a physical reality. I don't know why flat earthers don't? A person's frame of mind of the world around them is equally as important as the physical shape of the world around them.
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2024, 01:34:26 AM »
[/sup]

This is addressed here: https://wiki.tfes.org/Isostasy



It’s wrong with gravity being a better explanation.

Now.
 

What is the distance to the sun.  Flat earth should be a simple manner of triangulation in a few hours with modern technology.

Why is the most accurate FE map that actually accurately predicts travel distances and travel times.


Don’t you find this interesting?

Flat Earth Dave App Uses Globe Geometry Has No Security

The app has a friend finder to find people that have the same app. The app uses globe geometry to accurately calculate distance.  The code uses the haversine formula.


Quote






Evidently the app’s code uses the known tilt of the earth in radians for some functions concerning the sun and Moon. The value was given the variable name Obliquity.

Quote








Again.  Flat earth is a con and is less accurate than the heliocentric reality. 



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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2024, 02:12:29 AM »

What is the distance to the sun.  Flat earth should be a simple manner of triangulation in a few hours with modern technology.



They don't to observations because they "already have the data".

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29silhouette

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2024, 10:38:15 AM »
The final experiment... or observation, has also been a fun social experiment.

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29silhouette

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2024, 11:20:46 AM »
He knows more about Round Earth than you do. So do I
I going to have to disagree with you here.

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JackBlack

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2024, 12:24:57 PM »
Commercial flights are not a scientific instrument to measure the earth
And no one says they are.
However, they are enough to show just how wrong the bipolar model is.
But of course, rather than admit that, you just appeal to more magic to try to save your failed model.

There are many variables outside of geography which determines flight routes and flight times.
And none which exist which allow a plane to travel over twice the distance in roughly half the time, and especially not for that happening in both directions.
For example, if there was a persistent wind, such as the wind from Perth to Sydney, you would expect significantly different flight times and likely different routes. But we don't get that.

At the bottom of that page in the bipolar section it says that many flat earthers diverged from Rowbotham's work. This means that it's your fault if you use an old model that others have moved on from.
No, given the monopole model is in your FAQ, and with such certainty, it is your fault.
Again, you happily use the monopole model, until it falls apart and then you bring out the bipolar model to just push the problems around.
If you want to officially switch, you should discard the monopole model entirely.

The monopole model is the main and classical model, wrong or not. You are the child who came to me wanting to learn about this. In Physics, you need to teach children the classical Newtonian model before you get to Relativity. Relativity still has not replaced classical Newtonian physics as the "main" model that is taught in schools, even though the school's academics agree that Einstein discredited a lot of what Newton said.
No, I'm not a child.
I'm the intelligent adult who called out your fantasy as BS, so you continually switch around between models to pretend your fantasy isn't BS while just pushing the problem around.

Comparing it to how things are taught in science is quite dishonest.
Do you know a big difference? In the low energy limit, the results from relativity and Newtonian mechanics are virtually identical.
Newtonian mechanics is an approximation which works quite well when dealing with low speeds.
And it is still used for lots of things, because it is accurate enough and more importantly, much simpler.
e.g. the math of u+v is much simpler than (u+v)/(1+u*v/c^2)

Einstein didn't discredit what Newton said, he demonstrated it was an approximation.

The monopole vs bipolar model is nothing like that.
That comparison is more comparable to phlogiston vs oxygen.

When students are taught about combustion, they are not first taught the phlogiston theory. It is entirely wrong, not an approximation and not simpler than oxygen theory.
Most students have no idea about phlogiston, and if you asked them what it was they likely wouldn't even recognise the word.

Likewise, when students are taught about elements, they are not taught about Earth, fire, wind and water as elements of nature, at least not in science. Because that model is incapable of explanation so much it is effectively useless.

And you are not just introducing the monopole model as an approximation.
The FAQ has text clearly incompatible with the bipolar model:
Quote
The Earth is surrounded on all sides by an ice wall that holds the oceans back. This ice wall is what explorers have named Antarctica. Beyond the ice wall is a topic of great interest to the Flat Earth Society. To our knowledge, no one has been very far past the ice wall and returned to tell of their journey. What we do know is that it encircles the earth and serves to hold in our oceans and helps protect us from whatever lies beyond.
Here you are claiming to know that Antarctica is a wall of ice which circles Earth.
That is not merely putting forward it as a model. That is effectively making a statement that the bipolar model is wrong.

The displaced nature of the sun images in the Analemma proves that the sun does change speed.
Or that Earth is rotating on its axis and orbiting in an ellipse.
The point I was making was that because you have no actual explanation which allows a numerical prediction of where the sun should appear, you can just insert whatever vague magic is needed to get it regardless of what the sun is doing. That it doesn't indicate one FE model over another.

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2024, 12:28:50 PM »


Commercial flights are not a scientific instrument to measure the earth - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

There are many variables outside of geography which determines flight routes and flight times.

Planes are highly sensitive to the winds along their path. If I stir a bucket of water with a wooden spoon, the velocity of the water at the edges is greater than the center, showing that winds could be traveling faster closer to the edges of a flat earth model. We know that the flights depend on the movement of air for their specific routes, such as jet streams and known optimal paths, so any analysis needs a way to identify the influence of the permanent weather systems.


Nonsense.

There is an upper limit on any weather effect on an airplane's performance. Within those limits, air travel is as reliable a yardstick as anything else.

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2024, 03:46:47 PM »
The evidence is in:


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Smoke Machine

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2024, 11:16:44 PM »
[quote au!thor=Torve link=topic=92861.msg2436475#ms2436475 date=1734392807]
The eidence is in:

httpxs://ww.youtube.com/wa,tch?v=in0B1OQG3-M
[/quyote]

The experiment is going well!
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Username

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2024, 11:58:24 PM »
Seems to be going great.
If you can't argue both sidess, you undrstand neither

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2024, 04:50:56 AM »
Shade has started to be thrown from the 24 hour sun:



Pun intended.

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Smoke Machine

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2024, 05:38:39 AM »
Looking frwrd! t seeing te 24hr mon as well!
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2024, 05:41:21 AM »
Looking frwrd! t seeing te 24hr mon as well!

It is available as we speak in the arctic.

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Smoke Machine

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2024, 06:14:23 AM »
[quo?de audh;ow=doowv lik=d.pi,c=92861.mzg2436567#zg2436567 ;Ddade=1734442881]
[quoode !udhow=zmke zmoke Machine link=do!pic=92861.mzg2436566#mzzg2436566 dade=1734442719]
gLonoik fwwwd! d zeeing dee 24hw mn azl weell!
[/quode.]

Id z laleliavba az we peak n ehd awcg?ddic.
[/doufq,ee]
!
Plaze xzee m.yy hzpec mmdipednie. Myy dwink haz ben ipdekzp by JJohn Daviz. I'm hoing id wazn'd ihdw ?medhol.

I dhink dhe mo.on.i ill ozal be available in dhe Andawcdic.
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Torve

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2024, 07:01:39 AM »
It will be available in the Antarctic as well in approximately 6 months' time, but it's a two-drink minimum.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2024, 08:40:45 AM »
And no one says they are.
However, they are enough to show just how wrong the bipolar model is.
But of course, rather than admit that, you just appeal to more magic to try to save your failed model.

Water swirling and circling in a bucket isn't "magic". The atmosphere is a fluid, so it would behave as a fluid. A disk with rotating fluid systems directly predicts that the outer edges of the system travel faster than the center.

We know that there are swirling weather systems at least the size of oceans, with one of them in the below visualization being as wide as a  RE hemisphere



There are both eastwards and westwards movements. The movement of these massive systems cause counter-rotating effects which planes could take advantage of when traveling in different directions.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960148124016719



By the way, in the previous image the seen clockwise and counter-clockwise permanent wind and ocean currents runs contradictory to the Coriolis Effect in those hemispheres, which acts as another proof against the globe.

And none which exist which allow a plane to travel over twice the distance in roughly half the time, and especially not for that happening in both directions.

Even in the Round Earth model, the planes fly at 400 or 800 MPH depending on what wind conditions they are in, so this is wrong.

Quote from: JackBlack
For example, if there was a persistent wind, such as the wind from Perth to Sydney, you would expect significantly different flight times and likely different routes. But we don't get that.

Actually the flight paths change every day depending on specific conditions within the systems:

https://issuu.com/canso/docs/airspace_quarterone_2008

  “ Another example of the significant change in aircraft routes offered by more flexible use of airspace are the new nonstop flights between the US and India, which overfly Norway, Sweden and Finland one day, but may appear in Portuguese, Spanish and North African airspace the next day, depending on weather and prevailing jet streams. ”

Quote from: JackBlack
No, given the monopole model is in your FAQ, and with such certainty, it is your fault.
Again, you happily use the monopole model, until it falls apart and then you bring out the bipolar model to just push the problems around.

Yeah, you just quoted the Wiki where it speaks about the Bi-Polar model and how many people switched to it. The Wiki accepts multiple opinions about the Flat Earth, even if others within the community think it is incorrect.

Quote from: JackBlack
Comparing it to how things are taught in science is quite dishonest.
Do you know a big difference? In the low energy limit, the results from relativity and Newtonian mechanics are virtually identical.

Incorrect. The mechanics are not "virtually identical". In Relativity gravity on earth is the upwards acceleration of the earth's surface through spacetime, which is very different than the Newtonian view of gravity.

Quote from: JackBlack
And you are not just introducing the monopole model as an approximation.
The FAQ has text clearly incompatible with the bipolar model:
Quote
The Earth is surrounded on all sides by an ice wall that holds the oceans back. This ice wall is what explorers have named Antarctica. Beyond the ice wall is a topic of great interest to the Flat Earth Society. To our knowledge, no one has been very far past the ice wall and returned to tell of their journey. What we do know is that it encircles the earth and serves to hold in our oceans and helps protect us from whatever lies beyond.
Here you are claiming to know that Antarctica is a wall of ice which circles Earth.
That is not merely putting forward it as a model. That is effectively making a statement that the bipolar model is wrong.

Actually that is merely a frequently asked question, and it is right that it is the frequent answer on the Ice Wall. The Wiki is otherwise quite clear on the Ice Wall, that it may refer to an Ice Wall around the Bi-Polar model as well.

Quote from: FE Wiki
Many believe that Antarctica is the Ice Wall encountered by Sir James Clark Ross, whereas some believe that Antarctica is simply a 'rim continent' surrounding the known Earth and that the term Ice Wall is misleading. Others believe that Antarctica is an isolated and distinct continent and that though an Ice Wall exists, it is not Antarctica. The latter model generally assumes that the geography of the Earth is quite different to that outlined in the conventional model.

You're mad because the conventional model isn't the same as the latest or latter model, which is a pretty weak argument.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2024, 11:34:05 AM by Tom Bishop »

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #118 on: December 17, 2024, 09:16:54 AM »


Again, you happily use the monopole model,


Been trying to make sense of the society wiki.

It’s just ad hoc crap.  It really doesn’t address the 24 hour sun.  The seasons section doesn’t address a 24 hour sun nor the bipolar map.  And you completely ignore why due south in the heliocentric model and why the celestial South Pole and the constellation southern cross help find / determine due south in the southern hemisphere.  Along with the bipolar maps distorts many distances and relative directions to the point to be useless and would get people lost at sea. 

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Username

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Re: The Final Experiment - Antarctic 24 hour sun
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2024, 11:13:42 AM »


Again, you happily use the monopole model,


Been trying to make sense of the society wiki.

It’s just ad hoc crap.  It really doesn’t address the 24 hour sun.  The seasons section doesn’t address a 24 hour sun nor the bipolar map.  And you completely ignore why due south in the heliocentric model and why the celestial South Pole and the constellation southern cross help find / determine due south in the southern hemisphere.  Along with the bipolar maps distorts many distances and relative directions to the point to be useless and would get people lost at sea. 

If you were more aware of the history and philosophy of the science you believe in, you'd be surprised how much of it is actually ad hoc.
If you can't argue both sidess, you undrstand neither