FE is a sad little world.

You flat earth folks are a sad bunch.
You live in a round flat terrarium with a plastic lid? No outer space to wonder at. No universe filled with amazing stars and planets and boundless numbers of galaxies.
A thing saw awesome it's difficult to even try to comprehend.

I prefer reality to living on a pie plate with a plastic dome.
Feeling sorry for you who are that disillusioned.
I suggest a drive into the desert and stare at the night sky until the sun comes up over the horizon.

That's where you're wrong. A flat Earth can have an outward expanding Earth with multiple sections extending from the "South Pole" arctic rim. That is, if spaceships work there's a reason why they also seem to veer east or west. You don't go straight up unless you want to deal with rapid depressurization taking you to see God extra quick, to say nothing of the brick wall-like firmament.

What the Flat Earth is like is more of a neighborhood. You have Earth in the center, then Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto all lining the block like a suburb.

Yours is depressing. Rather than a tight-knit community of connected planes, you have wide masses of empty space where no God watches after the life and death of sentient species, where the sun could explode tomorrow and nobody would care. God appoints a sun for each plane, and God appoints a Son for each plane. This is right, Jesus died for the sins of Mars and Venus.

That's where you're wrong.

How does “south” work on a FE? 

Considering navigation and celestial observation points to this…



And not this..

Hint.  It doesn’t.  So you’ll spout BS and try to lay flack and try to derail the thread.

That is, if spaceships work there's a reason why they also seem to veer east or west.

Yes, to go into orbit, as explained to you repeatedly.
With the vast majority going to the east.

What the Flat Earth is like is more of a neighborhood. You have Earth in the center, then Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto all lining the block like a suburb.

How?
In the FE fantasy, they are above us, and tiny.

Yours is depressing. Rather than a tight-knit community of connected planes

How is it a tight knit community?

Even just looking at Earth, you have massive oceans disconnecting lands, with the majority of Earth's surface being water.

you have wide masses of empty space where no God watches after the life and death of sentient species, where the sun could explode tomorrow and nobody would care.

i.e. you find reality too depressing so you cling to a fantasy?

In the FE fantasy, they are above us, and tiny.

In the RE delusion of how FE works, that may be the case. FE ppl can't even agree among themselves.

This is what I'm describing. Concentric domes.

Because any habitable (and they are indeed habitable) plane is upright.

Green is crust, blue is sky, brown is shared land underground.

It's helpful to think of these as houses in a suburb as (unless we are talking about a communism) each house has heating and cooling system, as each plane within the larger firmament has its own sun and moon. Yes. It is literally impossible for every planet to be lit by the sun as per RE, as some of them are so distant as to get virtually no heat or light. 

"But I can see Venus in my telescope! I can see Jupiter!" Not hardly. You shouldn't be able to see either of these. Both are solid non-reflective obects, and Jupiter is in the opposite direction from the sun! You are seeing distant stars at a distance where they barely cast light. Or you are seeing holograms from NASA. In the original Oz books, they had people wear goggles so they'd believe that Oz was incredibly green. Your glasses, monsieur.

Yes, to go into orbit, as explained to you repeatedly.

No. They veer before they achieve significant altitude. They are far too heavy to go straight up (and air gains less density the more you ascend), but they have a firm pointed tip, remarkably similar to AP bullet rounds, perfect for puncturing into frozen oxygen domes. They are literally and quite noticeably turning far before they reach any altitude where "orbiting" would be possible. They only way we can support your solar system idea is consistent with how shuttles head to the side.

My 9-layer terrarium (I'm also not sure the bottom is rounded, it's just easier to draw) is much better than your miles and miles of empty space.

A multi expanding enclosed flat area seems still less than good. Oh and theres no proof other than some ancient drawing of a map. So yeah ( might not referance to that concept anyway)

The ancients often knew more than we do today.

We still don't have the exact formula for Greek fire, and Roman concrete used to built the pantheon has held up for centuries (I think at least twelve centuries), compared to ours today that falls apart in a major storm.

We surpass ancient cultures only in our arrogance. "Look, we have lasers and computers and..." yes, but their entire culture ran without needing electricity, and unlike our wind and water mills, they were designed with the actual surrounding wildlife in mind.

This is what I'm describing. Concentric domes.

Which there is zero proof of.  Or you would get multiple reflections from the sun.


https://www.amazon.com/DuvinDD-Cloche-Antique-Display-H5-11D3-94/dp/B08WWTSMXW#immersive-view_1678467441871







Inside dome looking up

"But I can see Venus in my telescope! I can see Jupiter!" Not hardly. You shouldn't be able to see either of these. Both are solid non-reflective obects, and Jupiter is in the opposite direction from the sun!

Why would they not reflect light like any other object to be seen?

I can place a lamp in the center of my room and still see the far wall. 

And Jupiter isn’t always on the opposite side of the sun. 

No. They veer before they achieve significant altitude.

Which is a false statement. Everything from tracked by radar, objects placed in orbit changing the night sky, to satellites actively retuning data and broadcasting.  And you have documented, recorded, witnessed blue origin flights that have entered space that you can only lie about. 

Quote

In the FE fantasy, they are above us, and tiny.

In the RE delusion of how FE works, that may be the case. FE ppl can't even agree among themselves.

This is what I'm describing. Concentric domes.

Because any habitable (and they are indeed habitable) plane is upright.

Green is crust, blue is sky, brown is shared land underground.

It's helpful to think of these as houses in a suburb as (unless we are talking about a communism) each house has heating and cooling system, as each plane within the larger firmament has its own sun and moon. Yes. It is literally impossible for every planet to be lit by the sun as per RE, as some of them are so distant as to get virtually no heat or light. 

"But I can see Venus in my telescope! I can see Jupiter!" Not hardly. You shouldn't be able to see either of these. Both are solid non-reflective obects, and Jupiter is in the opposite direction from the sun! You are seeing distant stars at a distance where they barely cast light. Or you are seeing holograms from NASA. In the original Oz books, they had people wear goggles so they'd believe that Oz was incredibly green. Your glasses, monsieur.

Quote

Yes, to go into orbit, as explained to you repeatedly.

No. They veer before they achieve significant altitude. They are far too heavy to go straight up (and air gains less density the more you ascend), but they have a firm pointed tip, remarkably similar to AP bullet rounds, perfect for puncturing into frozen oxygen domes. They are literally and quite noticeably turning far before they reach any altitude where "orbiting" would be possible. They only way we can support your solar system idea is consistent with how shuttles head to the side.

My 9-layer terrarium (I'm also not sure the bottom is rounded, it's just easier to draw) is much better than your miles and miles of empty space.

What epistemological process was used to reach that advanced natural philosophy?

In the RE delusion of how FE works, that may be the case. FE ppl can't even agree among themselves.

Which FEers are claiming they are magical extra continents?
How would that allow us to see them in the sky?

It is literally impossible for every planet to be lit by the sun as per RE, as some of them are so distant as to get virtually no heat or light.

And some get virtually no heat or light.
So what is impossible?

You shouldn't be able to see either of these.

Why? Because you say so?
Are you talking about the RE model, the FE model that they are like this?
Because we do see them, so if your fantasy says you can't, your fantasy is wrong.

Both are solid non-reflective obects

Are you saying they are pitch black?

You are seeing distant stars at a distance where they barely cast light. Or you are seeing holograms from NASA.

Or, we are seeing small planets.

No. They veer before they achieve significant altitude.

That is your claim you are yet to substiantiate.

They are far too heavy to go straight up

Yet they do when they launch. And the just get lighter after that.
The effect of buoyancy is negligible, so they could continue to go up, but that wouldn't put them in orbit.

My 9-layer terrarium (I'm also not sure the bottom is rounded, it's just easier to draw) is much better than your miles and miles of empty space.

In what way?
It has absolutely no evidence supporting it in favour of reality. It doesn't explain what is observed any better (and it does far worse in most cases), it still has large voids, just not as big, and less space overall.

We still don't have the exact formula for Greek fire

Which is due to it being historical so we can't know exactly what was used, but we can produce things with a similar effect.

Roman concrete used to built the pantheon has held up for centuries (I think at least twelve centuries), compared to ours today that falls apart in a major storm.

Survivorship bias, where structures which remain remained, as opposed to today where you are looking at all, and a difference in intent, where we don't plan for structures to remain up forever.

We surpass ancient cultures only in our arrogance.

And technology, life expectancy, free time, and plenty of other things.
Nothing is stopping you from living like them.

, and Roman concrete used to built the pantheon has held up for centuries

Rome doesn’t have severe freezing and thawing.

Anyway.  Lots of effort has gone into preserving the structure.

Restoration and Preservation
1747 onwards

In 1747, the Pantheon faced another calamity when lightning struck its dome. The impact caused severe damage to the interior, including the collapse of a large section of the ceiling. Subsequent restoration efforts were carried out to repair the damage and preserve the historical significance of the Pantheon. These restoration projects aimed to maintain the structural integrity of the building while also ensuring the preservation of its iconic architectural elements, such as the dome, portico, and interior artwork.

https://www.tickets-rome.com/roman-pantheon-tickets/history/#

Added

PANTHEON DOME'S LEAD PLATING
Seventy-two years after the bronze tiles were removed, the dome was covered in lead plating by Pope Gregory III in 735 AD. Moreover, to this day, the dome is still covered in lead plates thanks to maintenance financed by many Popes over the centuries, such as Martin V, Eugene IV, Nicholas V, Pius II, and Clement VII.

https://www.atouchofrome.com/pantheon-explained-page-1.html

Lead protects the dome concrete.

So nine concentric domes is still a little terrarium your world consists of. And who are you to tell God what he's capable of creating.
An infinite universe seems more likely for an all powerful creator, if you're going to bring mythology into the topic.

I'm not. For all I know, he may be juggling 100,000 different terrariums.

What I do know is that the RE depiction is incredibly unsatisfying. Let me explain...

1. Human beings are not allowed to stand upright on level ground but instead consigned to standing on the side or even underside of a sphere. I'm sorry but even if gravity makes us stick, that sounds uncomfortable.
2. Not only that, as a fan of being in one place, thanks to frequent moves during childhood, the idea that the Earth constants rotates and orbits is not only depressing, but gives me motion sickness by proxy.
3. The nearest planet is impossibly distant, and we have yet to find one with life on it. Endless wandering is what the Jewish people did. Ask them how that idea looks.
4. Speaking of Judeo-Christian tradition, outer space? Sounds an awful lot like this.

Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Indeed the depictions of outer space are incredibly depressing. They are apparently not able to wash or shower or use the bathroom properly.
In comparison, flying through some kind of barrier to another part of a larger firmament, you set down, there is normal air and water, you can poop, there are just Venusians or Martians there, and they more or less look like us with some minor differences.
5. The incredibly cold lifeless and uncaring universe depicted, that literally all life could end on this Earth if we happen to orbit the galaxy in such a way that we cross into the path of a star. Why hasn't this happened in millions of years? Probably because it can't happen. Earth is not orbiting, rotating, or tilting. The stars move around Earth.

There could be infinite area, but what doesn't seem right is a big empty universe mostly devoid of life. Hell, you can go out on a road trip and see that trees and grass seems to outnumber lifeless desert or bare mountains. The reason I pick nine areas is that this is established as our solar system.

There's also this model. Midgard being Earth, I'd say there's more than enough breathing space, and probably multiple Yggdrasils.


The Norse are badasses.

I'm not.

Your babbling.

Just the fact the sun doesn’t turn relative north after passing California to circle above kills flat earth delusion.

Quote from: wboyScQuest on March 17, 2024, 05:49:06 AM

A multi expanding enclosed flat area seems still less than good. Oh and theres no proof other than some ancient drawing of a map. So yeah ( might not referance to that concept anyway)

The ancients often knew more than we do today.

We still don't have the exact formula for Greek fire, and Roman concrete used to built the pantheon has held up for centuries (I think at least twelve centuries), compared to ours today that falls apart in a major storm.

We surpass ancient cultures only in our arrogance. "Look, we have lasers and computers and..." yes, but their entire culture ran without needing electricity, and unlike our wind and water mills, they were designed with the actual surrounding wildlife in mind.

That's true must ancient civilizations understood the world is spherical. The Maya for example, figured out the Earth's rotational precession to unprecedented precision and based their calendar on that. Still one of the most precise calendars created.
How'd they do that?
Watching where and when certain stars drop below the horizon.
Does your flat plate wobble to account for this too?

Greek fire? Really? Ever see Napalm in action?

What I do know is that the RE depiction is incredibly unsatisfying. Let me explain...

You mean you don't like it so you will continue to lie about it.

1. Human beings are not allowed to stand upright on level ground

Yes they are.
But because you can't show a fault you want to lie and pretend that is on the side or bottom.

2. Not only that, as a fan of being in one place, thanks to frequent moves during childhood, the idea that the Earth constants rotates and orbits is not only depressing, but gives me motion sickness by proxy.

i.e. you don't like it.
Why don't you go ask a prisoner in solitary confinement what it is like being stuck in the one place forever?

3. The nearest planet is impossibly distant, and we have yet to find one with life on it.

The nearest planet is quite close.
In the past, the same could be said about the continents. Without a plane it would take months to travel between.
You could even say the same for cities.
Modern technology allows us to go between them faster.
It remains to be seen if it will be the same for planets.

4. Speaking of Judeo-Christian tradition, outer space? Sounds an awful lot like this.

There is no weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In comparison, flying through some kind of barrier to another part of a larger firmament

Is pure fantasy with no basis of what it should be like.

5. The incredibly cold lifeless and uncaring universe depicted, that literally all life could end on this Earth if we happen to orbit the galaxy in such a way that we cross into the path of a star. Why hasn't this happened in millions of years?

Which is where all that large space comes to help.
But for the most part, why would we cross the path of a star?
For the most part, the stars and moving around in the galaxy together.

The stars move around Earth.

Which allows the same thing to happen, where all life could be wiped out by a star smashing into Earth.

you can go out on a road trip and see that trees and grass seems to outnumber lifeless desert or bare mountains.

You can also do the exact opposite.
Go on a road trip through a desert and see that lifeless desert or bare mountains outnumbers trees and grass.
Or go out on a boat and see a lifeless ocean.

I'll settle for the real world we live in, thanks.
Nine separate planets to explore, 200 billion stars in our galaxy with countless planets around them, many undoubtedly full of life.
Then there's the unknowable numbers of galaxies around us. God only knows, how many different species of life out there.
Truly awe inspiring.
You should visit a local university with an astronomical observatory and check it out. Most have open houses so the public can see what "they" are looking at.
Or maybe that idea is too scary

What epistemological process was used to reach that advanced natural philosophy?

The assertion that there are nine planets is one that both RE and FE has accepted. You can see old models of a geocentric universe being drawn out.

And even newer ones.

Keep in mind that until the heliocentric RE alliance, the idea that Earth was round or flat, and that Earth was the center or not the center were two different theories, as you can see from these pictures. I simply translated this idea into a flat Earth model.

I'll settle for the real world we live in, thanks. Nine separate planets to explore, 200 billion stars in our galaxy with countless planets around them, many undoubtedly full of life.

Try a universe filled with death. Because according to all the scientists who teach astronomy as this, the Earth is a Goldilocks planet. There are very few Earth-like planets (most of these are given the Kepler designation), and many Kepler planets are too far from the sun (hmmmm, almost as though the idea that light extends infinitely is wrong, and distance actually does make a difference...) or are tidally locked, or have some other fatal flaw. This universe as depicted has nowhere to go (because we are the only planet able to support life), fueling the climate change narrative.
https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/news/1658/among-trillions-of-planets-are-we-home-alone/

This is what you claim to prefer. Do you have a problem with hating yourself?

Again.  The simple fact the sun doesn’t turn north / right after passing California debunks a sun circular over a delusional flat earth.  That easy to debunk the FE delusion. 

To the original poster.

It is in fact much more sad to live in the world of a globularist. For you to think that eventually, everything will cease to exist in the universe due to it's uncontrollable expansion must be immensely depressing.

Everything that you've ever done, that has ever happened, that has ever existed will be gone without any trace. Everything about you and your existence is pointless and heading towards a cold future where nothing happens.

The life of a globularist is therefore meaningless. Take comfort in your false religion while flat earthers live with purpose.

I mean BB, Itchy, you have a very bleak and twisted view of the options; I know you have been talking to Jacky, and that is bound to bring you down, but it is far rosier than you think on our side of this divide.

Let me explain.
If we forget all the other gods vying for your praise and take a generic interpretation of the English god, what you get for your selling your soul for eternity is a pretty mean deal with a lot of compulsion.
Sure, a promise of love but only if you subscribe to a lot of stuff dragged from the minds of some bronze age weirdos with a rum idea of morality, where eating prawns was a capital offense but two girls getting their father drunk so they could fuck him was considered devotional.
For that you get to live your 3 score years and ten (less probably under the US health system) coerced in to forgoing sex, (for the most part), drugs, and rock’n’roll under constant surveillance with Demons in the wings and the promise of eternal boiling should you falter.

We don’t have that, if I find myself coveting my neighbours’ oxen, it’s on my conscience and I will cease.
If I choose to venerate nature on some windswept tor, butt naked under the moon and no one is harmed, I can do so without fear of retribution (barring hypothermia), whereas my christian peers are on their knees begging release from a sin of scrumping committed aeons ago by a woman who talked to snakes.

It is a no brainer, come join me on the moors.


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/scrumping

If I choose to venerate nature on some windswept tor, butt naked under the moon and no one is harmed,

It is a no brainer, come join me on the moors.


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/scrumping

Reads like what if Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell started a cult.  Shrugs. 

The assertion that there are nine planets is one that both RE and FE has accepted.

The fundamental distinction here is we accept that they are planets, which can be viewed with a telescope.
You have tried to say they are extra bits of land on a flat plane.
How would you see them?

Try a universe filled with death.

The universe is filled with death, regardless of if it is flat or round.

There are very few Earth-like planets

Based upon what?
Earth-like planets are hard to detect.
But we have found one orbiting our nearest neighbour.
Chances are that there are plenty of Earth like planets.

This is what you claim to prefer. Do you have a problem with hating yourself?

You certainly seem to.
You hate reality and yourself so much you want to be the play thing of an evil POS.

But the belief in such a being does not require a flat Earth.
Plenty of people believe in a god and accept a round Earth.

It is in fact much more sad to live in the world of a globularist. For you to think that eventually, everything will cease to exist in the universe due to it's uncontrollable expansion must be immensely depressing.

Everything that you've ever done, that has ever happened, that has ever existed will be gone without any trace. Everything about you and your existence is pointless and heading towards a cold future where nothing happens.

The life of a globularist is therefore meaningless. Take comfort in your false religion while flat earthers live with purpose.

Other than expansion, the same can equally be said for the flat Earth.
Especially considering all the people that have come before us which have left basically no trace.
The life of a flat earther is equally meaningless, as if the shape of Earth has no bearing on the meaning of your life.

To the original poster.

It is in fact much more sad to live in the world of a globularist. For you to think that eventually, everything will cease to exist in the universe due to it's uncontrollable expansion must be immensely depressing.

Everything that you've ever done, that has ever happened, that has ever existed will be gone without any trace. Everything about you and your existence is pointless and heading towards a cold future where nothing happens.

The life of a globularist is therefore meaningless. Take comfort in your false religion while flat earthers live with purpose.

The eventual heat death of the universe (if that turns out to be the case) is not depressing at all.  It’s a really long way off and humanity probably won’t be around to see it.

I’m far more concerned with what we are doing to the planet right now.    Tough times ahead for members of my family and friends’ kids.

Not helped by anti science cretins who do everything they can to cast doubt on what’s happening and what needs to be done about it.

Not all climate change deniers are flat earthers, but are any flat earther not climate change deniers?

How about you?  You speak of purpose, but where do you stand on stuff that actually matters?  Things that will affect the lives of people I care about?

Not all climate change deniers are flat earthers, but are any flat earther not climate change deniers?

Most climate change deniers are angry globularists.

To the original poster.

It is in fact much more sad to live in the world of a globularist. For you to think that eventually, everything will cease to exist in the universe due to it's uncontrollable expansion must be immensely depressing.

Everything that you've ever done, that has ever happened, that has ever existed will be gone without any trace. Everything about you and your existence is pointless and heading towards a cold future where nothing happens.

The life of a globularist is therefore meaningless. Take comfort in your false religion while flat earthers live with purpose.

So, flat earth for you, is all about a meaningful existence? Meaningful to who? There is a big difference between the shapes of a dinner plate and a basketball, isn't there?

News flash: Pretending the Globe you live on is instead a big dinner plate, does not, and will not, give your life new purpose. Afterall, you can't tell me or anyone where your version of heaven exists, can you?

If you choose to live life in your immediate surroundings and ignore scientific knowledge in the field of outer space and the universe, that's totally fine. But the moment you start trying to project your immediate surrounding experience on others to literally be the worldwide truth, that's where you will run into roadblocks.

Life is a mystery. Embrace it and live your best life for you. Don't worry about what the crusty old testament version of God might think. That god was a mega loser and is as fictional as the most popular fictional character you'll ever read!

* I'm weaning myself off this forum. Cold turkey may not be the solution.

To the original poster.

It is in fact much more sad to live in the world of a globularist. For you to think that eventually, everything will cease to exist in the universe due to it's uncontrollable expansion must be immensely depressing.

Everything that you've ever done, that has ever happened, that has ever existed will be gone without any trace. Everything about you and your existence is pointless and heading towards a cold future where nothing happens.

The life of a globularist is therefore meaningless. Take comfort in your false religion while flat earthers live with purpose.

I also find the current Big bang theory quite unsatisfactory, but that doesn't make it wrong. In fact my feelings have no bearing on its veracity.
What I can do is read, study physics, cosmology and mathematics and try to comprehend it and develop more satisfactory ideas based on science and mathematics.
Nothing lasts forever, not even our sun.
So enjoy the day, be nice to someone. Try to help the human race move forward not backwards. Steer your children, grandchildren and friends from anti -reality cults.

Quote from: Ichimaru Gin :] on March 19, 2024, 07:52:10 AM

To the original poster.

It is in fact much more sad to live in the world of a globularist. For you to think that eventually, everything will cease to exist in the universe due to it's uncontrollable expansion must be immensely depressing.

Everything that you've ever done, that has ever happened, that has ever existed will be gone without any trace. Everything about you and your existence is pointless and heading towards a cold future where nothing happens.

The life of a globularist is therefore meaningless. Take comfort in your false religion while flat earthers live with purpose.

The eventual heat death of the universe (if that turns out to be the case) is not depressing at all.  It’s a really long way off and humanity probably won’t be around to see it.

I’m far more concerned with what we are doing to the planet right now.    Tough times ahead for members of my family and friends’ kids.

Not helped by anti science cretins who do everything they can to cast doubt on what’s happening and what needs to be done about it.

Not all climate change deniers are flat earthers, but are any flat earther not climate change deniers?

How about you?  You speak of purpose, but where do you stand on stuff that actually matters?  Things that will affect the lives of people I care about?

Most climate change deniers are globularists as SCG mentions.

I think pollution and emissions are sadly ruining our beloved Earth. The rich don't care as long as they make a profit. At the expense of our ecosystems and even our own health, it doesn't matter. They don't care.

For example, pumping toxins, waste, and byproducts in water sources results in a gentle slap on the wrist and a fine that doesn't affect their business in the slightest.

Ichimaru,
Ah ha, we have found something we absolutely agree on. Flat, round, whatever, we only have this one planet. We better start taking better care of it or it's gonna get really pissed and kill us off.