Next Generation Identification

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/10/fbi-ramps-its-next-generation-identification-roll-out-winter-will-your-image-end

NextGov.com is reporting that the FBI will begin rolling out its Next Generation Identification (NGI) facial recognition service as early as this January.  Once NGI is fully deployed and once each of its approximately 100 million records also includes photographs, it will become trivially easy to find and track Americans.

As we detailed in an earlier post, NGI expands the FBI’s IAFIS criminal and civil fingerprint database to include multimodal biometric identifiers such as iris scans, palm prints, photos, and voice data. The Bureau is planning to introduce each of these capabilities in phases (pdf, p.4) over the next two and a half years, starting with facial recognition in four states—Michigan, Washington, Florida, and North Carolina—this winter.

Scary or not scary?

Also, you can read about it here as well  http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/ngi

Scary as fuck.

Awesome! It's getting all Minority Report up in hurr.

Awesome! It's getting all Minority Report up in hurr.

Minority Report was complete bullshit.

Why is this bad?

Facial recognition on Children: Done.  Lost children found faster than ever.

People seem to think that because the government can track you that not only are they tracking you but that they'll be framing you for some crime you didn't commit.  I never understood that level of paranoia.  If the police wanted to frame you, it doesn't matter if they can track you.  All that matters is that someone says they saw you.  Or they have a copy of your DNA (See blood tests from your Doctor).  Or they have a copy of your finger prints (See your trash).

Hell, you can already track a lot of people just by their cell phone.


But go on and resist it.  I'm sure it'll be as accepted as DNA evidence is soon enough.

Why is this bad?

Facial recognition on Children: Done.  Lost children found faster than ever.

People seem to think that because the government can track you that not only are they tracking you but that they'll be framing you for some crime you didn't commit.  I never understood that level of paranoia.  If the police wanted to frame you, it doesn't matter if they can track you.  All that matters is that someone says they saw you.  Or they have a copy of your DNA (See blood tests from your Doctor).  Or they have a copy of your finger prints (See your trash).

Hell, you can already track a lot of people just by their cell phone.


But go on and resist it.  I'm sure it'll be as accepted as DNA evidence is soon enough.

Srsly. Unless you're a highly wanted criminal, who cares? This technology would be nothing but helpful.

Minority Report was complete bullshit.

Like, as in fiction? Or as in the movie was completely different than the short story?

The only thing I can see with this is that you might get mis-identified, but that seems like it would end up being little more than a pain in the ass.

The only thing I can see with this is that you might get mis-identified, but that seems like it would end up being little more than a pain in the ass.

Unless you have an identical twin.

So, if a CCTV camera saw and recognised your face, could a nearby billboard change to an advert specifically targeted at you? If you were spotted on camera bungee jumping or even frequenting McDonalds, would your life insurance premiums go up? If you were caught late one night kissing someone you shouldn't be on the way home from a bar, could a PI blackmail you?

Its not what the technology does, its where it could lead and what potential applications it could spawn. Once out there, its harder to control and monitor who gets to use it. Most of the time you wouldn't even know who just bought into it. Do not for one second think it would not be sold to private companies.

I'm not concerned with the government framing people for crimes or whatever. I'm really not quite sure what I find so alarming about it.

So, if a CCTV camera saw and recognised your face, could a nearby billboard change to an advert specifically targeted at you? If you were spotted on camera bungee jumping or even frequenting McDonalds, would your life insurance premiums go up? If you were caught late one night kissing someone you shouldn't be on the way home from a bar, could a PI blackmail you?

Its not what the technology does, its where it could lead and what potential applications it could spawn. Once out there, its harder to control and monitor who gets to use it. Most of the time you wouldn't even know who just bought into it. Do not for one second think it would not be sold to private companies.

Uh, no.  Just no.  Of all the reasonable concerns that people ought to have with this, the idea that the government is going to be selling access to law enforcement databases to private companies is not one of them.  To begin with, it would be illegal as hell, and from a purely practical perspective, it would compromise the entire purpose of the database if they were farming out access to it to private parties.

But how do you stop people looking at the information by filing public access suits?  This is how people get your driver's license information which in some cases has stuff on it like vision and hearing information.  I guess they could also look at your photo and decide if you're ugly enough to need unsolicited coupons from a plastic surgeon.

Quote from: Thork on October 20, 2011, 03:02:47 AM

So, if a CCTV camera saw and recognised your face, could a nearby billboard change to an advert specifically targeted at you? If you were spotted on camera bungee jumping or even frequenting McDonalds, would your life insurance premiums go up? If you were caught late one night kissing someone you shouldn't be on the way home from a bar, could a PI blackmail you?

Its not what the technology does, its where it could lead and what potential applications it could spawn. Once out there, its harder to control and monitor who gets to use it. Most of the time you wouldn't even know who just bought into it. Do not for one second think it would not be sold to private companies.

Uh, no.  Just no.  Of all the reasonable concerns that people ought to have with this, the idea that the government is going to be selling access to law enforcement databases to private companies is not one of them.  To begin with, it would be illegal as hell, and from a purely practical perspective, it would compromise the entire purpose of the database if they were farming out access to it to private parties.

Because a government would never sell the private information of its citizens to a private company?
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-01-02/business/fi-113_1_census-information
Mmmm, census info.

Surely not medical records?
http://www.hcpro.com/HIM-242642-866/Hospitals-patient-information-sold.html

GPS data?
http://www2.canada.com/technology/info+sold+help+police+speeders/4697656/story.html?id=4697656

Police data?
http://claimscouncil.org/news/2011/06/28/police-cash-in-on-car-crashes-it-s-not-just-insurance-firms-making-millions-selling-drivers-details

Why wouldn't they sell data on where you have been? Yes the idea is abhorrent, but very likely. And there will be nothing citizens can do about it once its up and running.

Pro tip: Buy a burka.

Because a government would never sell the private information of its citizens to a private company?
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-01-02/business/fi-113_1_census-information
Mmmm, census info.

Lol, that article is deliberately misleading.  The official census sent out every ten years is absolutely confidential, and is only published after 72 years have passed.  Not even other government agencies have access to it, and certainly not private companies.  The sleight of hand in the article is shown by the way he begins by talking about how everyone is filling out the census that comes every ten years, and then only uses the vague label of "census information" to refer to what businesses are looking at.  They only get to see what is already public record, the less specific, less detailed surveys that the bureau sends out occasionally.

Surely not medical records?
http://www.hcpro.com/HIM-242642-866/Hospitals-patient-information-sold.html

That was a crooked employee of a hospital.

GPS data?
http://www2.canada.com/technology/info+sold+help+police+speeders/4697656/story.html?id=4697656

That was a private company selling to the police, and it happened in the Netherlands.

Police data?
http://claimscouncil.org/news/2011/06/28/police-cash-in-on-car-crashes-it-s-not-just-insurance-firms-making-millions-selling-drivers-details

If this article is correct, then what's going on is a racketeering scam where the police are being bribed to drum up business for garages.  The only members of the conspiracy selling any details would be the insurance companies.

Why wouldn't they sell data on where you have been? Yes the idea is abhorrent, but very likely. And there will be nothing citizens can do about it once its up and running.

Because this will be a gigantic database, constantly being updated, and it's main use will be of the real-time (or close to it) monitoring of the footage.  It's not a matter of sticking a thumb drive into a computer, downloading it all, and passing it off to some executive.  They would actually have to be a part of the whole thing, plugged into the system and all, which, like I said, is illegal and couldn't possibly be kept a secret.

And besides, what would companies have to gain from this, realistically?  The scenarios you gave me all involve one person being targeted.  Companies don't make money from individuals, they make it from lots of people.  Do you really think they're going to be making dossiers on millions of people and hiring enough people to successfully monitor them all?

If a computer can recognise your face from a camera, and log the location, then yes, that is of interest. Its even more interesting to them than tracking your internet browsing. Which companies love to do.
Would insurance companies offering life cover like to know how many times you went to the pub this week? Would Walmart be interested you went to K-Mart instead this week and issue you vouchers to get you back? Would a company selling golf clubs be interested that you played golf at your local club this week and send you a catalogue?
I don't think there is any doubt people would buy this info if a computer could just note your face, place and time and then add that to a nice database for them to use.

Would they sell it? I think they would. UK Census info gets sold all the time. After the 2001 census people received a huge amount of junk mail. The UK government denied selling the info in the ensuing shit-storm.

As for Private companies knowing about census info, Lockheed Martin have all ours, yours and Canada's info.

If a computer can recognise your face from a camera, and log the location, then yes, that is of interest. Its even more interesting to them than tracking your internet browsing. Which companies love to do.
Would insurance companies offering life cover like to know how many times you went to the pub this week? Would Walmart be interested you went to K-Mart instead this week and issue you vouchers to get you back? Would a company selling golf clubs be interested that you played golf at your local club this week and send you a catalogue?
I don't think there is any doubt people would buy this info if a computer could just note your face, place and time and then add that to a nice database for them to use.

This all relies on the assumption that no matter where you are, a government camera is always taking a picture of you.  I know that over in London you've got cameras on all street corners so that the government can watch everybody (my condolences, by the way), but we don't.  A picture of a random person going into a bar isn't going to be on the database, because the government doesn't give a shit about who's going to bars.

Would they sell it? I think they would. UK Census info gets sold all the time. After the 2001 census people received a huge amount of junk mail. The UK government denied selling the info in the ensuing shit-storm.

As for Private companies knowing about census info, Lockheed Martin have all ours, yours and Canada's info.

Yeah, I've heard about that, and again, I'm sorry that your government has such a low opinion of people's privacy.  But, quite frankly, that's not a problem in America.  We have very strict laws and oversight governing the confidentiality of the decennial census.  It's not going to happen here.

So, if a CCTV camera saw and recognised your face, could a nearby billboard change to an advert specifically targeted at you? If you were spotted on camera bungee jumping or even frequenting McDonalds, would your life insurance premiums go up? If you were caught late one night kissing someone you shouldn't be on the way home from a bar, could a PI blackmail you?

Its not what the technology does, its where it could lead and what potential applications it could spawn. Once out there, its harder to control and monitor who gets to use it. Most of the time you wouldn't even know who just bought into it. Do not for one second think it would not be sold to private companies.

Banks can sell your credit/debit information as to where you spend money thus linking you to locations. 
Websites can sell your e-mail address as well as provide ads specifically tailored to your website viewing habits.
Hell, Facebook has more information about your habits than any database I know of.  I'm sure Insurance companies look at that information.

And it's not like it matters who is the first to develop and use it.  Take Atomic Weapons.  Do you honestly think that if America didn't develop them that no one would have them? 
Same with this technology.  Do you really think that if the Police don't use it that someone else won't?  Odds are whoever developed it is a private business and they will sell the technology to whoever wants it.  So instead of having a police database you've got insurance companies paying McDonalds for their security camera footage.

Quote from: Thork on October 20, 2011, 03:02:47 AM

So, if a CCTV camera saw and recognised your face, could a nearby billboard change to an advert specifically targeted at you? If you were spotted on camera bungee jumping or even frequenting McDonalds, would your life insurance premiums go up? If you were caught late one night kissing someone you shouldn't be on the way home from a bar, could a PI blackmail you?

Its not what the technology does, its where it could lead and what potential applications it could spawn. Once out there, its harder to control and monitor who gets to use it. Most of the time you wouldn't even know who just bought into it. Do not for one second think it would not be sold to private companies.

Banks can sell your credit/debit information as to where you spend money thus linking you to locations. 

Banks have to notify you of your security options and you can always opt out of having them share your information with third parties.

 

Websites can sell your e-mail address as well as provide ads specifically tailored to your website viewing habits.
Hell, Facebook has more information about your habits than any database I know of.  I'm sure Insurance companies look at that information.

These are optional things. You don't have to give your email address to websites and you don't have to be a part of facebook. Hell, my gmail detects junk mail perfectly so I never have to even deal with unwanted spam.

As far as I can tell, some of you are just paranoid that you'll get some more junk mail. Again, this technology seems more helpful (finding lost children, tracking highly wanted criminals) than harmful.

Paranoid about junk mail? silly

Of course the technology will be helpful to the people using it. Otherwise they wouldn't bother with it. The paranoia has nothing to do with junk mail, and mostly to do with the changes brought about by The Patriot Act. I don't know how many lost children will be found with the technology, but I'm sure Homeland Security will appreciate the ability to track terrorists.

Quote from: Lorddave on October 20, 2011, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Thork on October 20, 2011, 03:02:47 AM

So, if a CCTV camera saw and recognised your face, could a nearby billboard change to an advert specifically targeted at you? If you were spotted on camera bungee jumping or even frequenting McDonalds, would your life insurance premiums go up? If you were caught late one night kissing someone you shouldn't be on the way home from a bar, could a PI blackmail you?

Its not what the technology does, its where it could lead and what potential applications it could spawn. Once out there, its harder to control and monitor who gets to use it. Most of the time you wouldn't even know who just bought into it. Do not for one second think it would not be sold to private companies.

Banks can sell your credit/debit information as to where you spend money thus linking you to locations. 

Banks have to notify you of your security options and you can always opt out of having them share your information with third parties.

Sure.  They also give you a 5 page, small print, legal talk document explaining that.

Quote

Websites can sell your e-mail address as well as provide ads specifically tailored to your website viewing habits.
Hell, Facebook has more information about your habits than any database I know of.  I'm sure Insurance companies look at that information.

These are optional things. You don't have to give your email address to websites and you don't have to be a part of facebook. Hell, my gmail detects junk mail perfectly so I never have to even deal with unwanted spam.

So is going out in public.  That's optional.  It's all about what optional things you would like to not be recorded.  But anyone who is really concerned can simply wear a mask.  A ski-mask would likely work fine to screw the system up.

As far as I can tell, some of you are just paranoid that you'll get some more junk mail. Again, this technology seems more helpful (finding lost children, tracking highly wanted criminals) than harmful.

Agreed.

So is going out in public.  That's optional.  It's all about what optional things you would like to not be recorded.  But anyone who is really concerned can simply wear a mask.  A ski-mask would likely work fine to screw the system up.

They are way ahead of you. You won't be able to 'opt out'.
http://logicalobservations.com/2011/09/13/hiding-your-face-in-public-is-a-felony/

Paranoid about junk mail? silly

Of course the technology will be helpful to the people using it. Otherwise they wouldn't bother with it. The paranoia has nothing to do with junk mail, and mostly to do with the changes brought about by The Patriot Act. I don't know how many lost children will be found with the technology, but I'm sure Homeland Security will appreciate the ability to track terrorists.

Lost children? They want to record children's faces? Also children grow and their faces change rapidly. they are the least likely to be added. As for terrorists, you can bet your bottom dollar that wearing Burkas will still be fine. Wouldn't want to infringe the rights of Muslims. White people you can push about. But do it to a muslim and they will moan and moan and moan until you give them some money to shut the f*ck up.

No, there's no mention of recording children's faces. That's what rooster thinks the technology will be used for, or it could be used for.

Lorddave, where do you get the idea people are paranoid about junk mail?

Quote from: Lorddave on October 21, 2011, 01:58:02 PM

So is going out in public.  That's optional.  It's all about what optional things you would like to not be recorded.  But anyone who is really concerned can simply wear a mask.  A ski-mask would likely work fine to screw the system up.

They are way ahead of you. You won't be able to 'opt out'.
http://logicalobservations.com/2011/09/13/hiding-your-face-in-public-is-a-felony/

It's Virginia.  But that's prior to the technology and without round the clock CCT in public.  So it's likely for other reasons.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on October 21, 2011, 09:36:25 AM

Paranoid about junk mail? silly

Of course the technology will be helpful to the people using it. Otherwise they wouldn't bother with it. The paranoia has nothing to do with junk mail, and mostly to do with the changes brought about by The Patriot Act. I don't know how many lost children will be found with the technology, but I'm sure Homeland Security will appreciate the ability to track terrorists.

Lost children? They want to record children's faces? Also children grow and their faces change rapidly. they are the least likely to be added. As for terrorists, you can bet your bottom dollar that wearing Burkas will still be fine. Wouldn't want to infringe the rights of Muslims. White people you can push about. But do it to a muslim and they will moan and moan and moan until you give them some money to shut the f*ck up.

Children's faces do grow but there are algorithms to predict how they will look when older.
Also:
The hope, I would imagine, is to find the child within 6 months.  The changes in facial features would be negligible. 

Lorddave, where do you get the idea people are paranoid about junk mail?

Do you delete your junk mail or read it?

I open my junk mail and then delete it, why? What does that have to do with this Next Generation stuff?

I open my junk mail and then delete it, why? What does that have to do with this Next Generation stuff?

You open junk mail?  Even known spam?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on October 21, 2011, 03:32:24 PM

I open my junk mail and then delete it, why? What does that have to do with this Next Generation stuff?

You open junk mail?  Even known spam?

She's hoping someday that herbal viagra will be for women too.

I just want to see what it is. I don't get much, sometimes it's funny like the Nigerian prince shit. If it's a phishing scam I report it, otherwise I just delete it. I don't know what reporting phishing does, but I'd like to hope it does some good. (after reading back over the thread I am now confused about the type of mail rooster was talking about, I had assumed email...)

I'm still wondering what it is about this technology that would make people paranoid about getting more junk mail. I guess that's from Thork's post about advertisers using it to track customers at stores? That is the last thing I'm worried about. I don't care if Walmart sends me coupons or whatever. I'm more concerned with something less tangible, I guess. It seems like excessive state power over citizens. The US seems more concerned with controlling citizens these days.