VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!

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cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« on: February 26, 2018, 07:19:12 AM »
What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2018, 07:43:38 AM »
Strange you ask. Scientists are still working on it. An article posted just yesterday.
https://futurism.com/universes-expansion-new-physics/

The article contains the current accepted rate along with information about new groups of people trying to get a better number.
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It's no slur if it's fact.

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cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2018, 08:30:35 AM »
Strange you ask. Scientists are still working on it. An article posted just yesterday.
https://futurism.com/universes-expansion-new-physics/

The article contains the current accepted rate along with information about new groups of people trying to get a better number.

QUOTE 1 :
"According to the theory of inflation, the Universe grew by a factor of 10 to the sixtieth power in less than 10 to the negative thirty seconds, so the "edges" of the Universe were expanding away from each other faster than the speed of light; however, as long as those edges can't see each other (which is what we always assume), there is no physical law that forbids it." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/109-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/inflation/664-how-can-the-universe-expand-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-during-inflation-advanced

No physical law that forbids it??? As long as edges of the Universe can't see each other, every physical law can be violeted.
Such logic reminds me to this :

ACCOMPANYING VIDEO : How can NASA recover from this, *EVER*??? - part 2 :

*2.* VAN ALLEN BELT ISSUE :

Alen Bean says his mission had no problem with Van Allen Belt (radiation) because it hadn't been discovered yet (at the time)....lol...lol...lol...lol...lol...
----------------------------------------
Cozmik funk rabbitt
5 days ago
So all you have to do is close your eyes while going thru the Van Allen belt and you're protected from radiation WOW!!!!!! Amazing?
----------------------------------------------
Chante Moody
3 days ago
So, the Van Allen Belt didn't cause them problems because they hadn't discovered it yet? Who knew life really was like a Wily Coyote cartoon and you could do things like walk straight off of cliffs without falling as long as you didn't realize you were in danger??!! Well, I'm going to change my parenting style based off of this knowledge. I won't teach my baby about bad strangers, accidental burns, or anything else dangerous, because what she doesn't know can't hurt her. I won't have to waste money on medicine, child car seats, babysitters, etc., because as long as I keep her ignorant of danger she can't get hurt. why teach her not to rub with scissors when I could just keep her safe my keeping her ignorant of the possible dangers associated with it? ;)?

QUOTE 2 :
"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be seen again." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/104-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/expansion-of-the-universe/616-is-the-universe-expanding-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate

NOW, THIS IS THE QUESTION :

If the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate from the very first moment of it's creation (big bang), then what is the speed at which the universe is expanding this very moment (after 13,8 billion LONG years have passed)???

How utterly stupid this theories could be is quite visible in this example, also :
Q : What is a singularity?
A : A singularity means a point where some property is infinite. For example, at the center of a black hole, according to classical theory, the density is infinite (because a finite mass is compressed to a zero volume). Hence it is a singularity. Similarly, if you extrapolate the properties of the universe to the instant of the Big Bang, you will find that both the density and the temperature go to infinity, and so that also is a singularity. It must be stated that these come due to the breaking down of the classical theory.

IT MUST BE STATED THAT THESE COME DUE TO THE BREAKING DOWN LAST BIT OF SANITY OF HUMAN MIND!
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2018, 08:36:25 AM »
Strange you ask. Scientists are still working on it. An article posted just yesterday.
https://futurism.com/universes-expansion-new-physics/

The article contains the current accepted rate along with information about new groups of people trying to get a better number.

QUOTE 1 :
"According to the theory of inflation, the Universe grew by a factor of 10 to the sixtieth power in less than 10 to the negative thirty seconds, so the "edges" of the Universe were expanding away from each other faster than the speed of light; however, as long as those edges can't see each other (which is what we always assume), there is no physical law that forbids it." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/109-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/inflation/664-how-can-the-universe-expand-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-during-inflation-advanced

No physical law that forbids it??? As long as edges of the Universe can't see each other, every physical law can be violeted.
Such logic reminds me to this :

ACCOMPANYING VIDEO : How can NASA recover from this, *EVER*??? - part 2 :

*2.* VAN ALLEN BELT ISSUE :

Alen Bean says his mission had no problem with Van Allen Belt (radiation) because it hadn't been discovered yet (at the time)....lol...lol...lol...lol...lol...
----------------------------------------
Cozmik funk rabbitt
5 days ago
So all you have to do is close your eyes while going thru the Van Allen belt and you're protected from radiation WOW!!!!!! Amazing?
----------------------------------------------
Chante Moody
3 days ago
So, the Van Allen Belt didn't cause them problems because they hadn't discovered it yet? Who knew life really was like a Wily Coyote cartoon and you could do things like walk straight off of cliffs without falling as long as you didn't realize you were in danger??!! Well, I'm going to change my parenting style based off of this knowledge. I won't teach my baby about bad strangers, accidental burns, or anything else dangerous, because what she doesn't know can't hurt her. I won't have to waste money on medicine, child car seats, babysitters, etc., because as long as I keep her ignorant of danger she can't get hurt. why teach her not to rub with scissors when I could just keep her safe my keeping her ignorant of the possible dangers associated with it? ;)?

QUOTE 2 :
"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be seen again." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/104-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/expansion-of-the-universe/616-is-the-universe-expanding-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate

NOW, THIS IS THE QUESTION :

If the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate from the very first moment of it's creation (big bang), then what is the speed at which the universe is expanding this very moment (after 13,8 billion LONG years have passed)???

How utterly stupid this theories could be is quite visible in this example, also :
Q : What is a singularity?
A : A singularity means a point where some property is infinite. For example, at the center of a black hole, according to classical theory, the density is infinite (because a finite mass is compressed to a zero volume). Hence it is a singularity. Similarly, if you extrapolate the properties of the universe to the instant of the Big Bang, you will find that both the density and the temperature go to infinity, and so that also is a singularity. It must be stated that these come due to the breaking down of the classical theory.

IT MUST BE STATED THAT THESE COME DUE TO THE BREAKING DOWN LAST BIT OF SANITY OF HUMAN MIND!

Cool story.

/thread

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 10:00:15 AM »
Alen Bean says his mission had no problem with Van Allen Belt (radiation) because it hadn't been discovered yet (at the time)...

If Alan Bean actually said that, he was mistaken. It happens. Since he wasn't in charge of designing the trajectory which avoided the stronger parts of the VA belts, this lapse, if it even happened, doesn't matter. 

Quote
How utterly stupid this theories could be is quite visible in this example, also :
Q : What is a singularity?
A : A singularity means a point where some property is infinite. For example, at the center of a black hole, according to classical theory, the density is infinite (because a finite mass is compressed to a zero volume). Hence it is a singularity. Similarly, if you extrapolate the properties of the universe to the instant of the Big Bang, you will find that both the density and the temperature go to infinity, and so that also is a singularity. It must be stated that these come due to the breaking down of the classical theory.

There is no new insight here. Physicists already know that the principles of classical physics don't apply in the center of a black hole, nor it the first few moments after the Big Bang. Classical physics provides good approximations of the behavior of the physical universe in circumstances where relativistic and quantum effects are not significant.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 10:27:07 AM »
1. What is the Universe Expanding Into?

This is the answer that you can get from those lunatics who believe in heliocentric theory and everything that comes with this ultimate insult to a human common sense :
--The short answer is that this is a nonsense question, the Universe isn’t expanding into anything, it’s just expanding. HAHAHHAHAHHAHA....

2. Can a Singularity Be Described as “Nothing?”

According to the Standard Big Bang model, the universe began in the form of a singularity – a point of infinite density and infinitesimal (zero) volume. IT DOES MAKE SENSE, DOESN'T IT? HAHAHAHHAHAHAH...

But, now you have to see following hilarious exchange of thoughts on this subject :

Mr A says :
--This event that marked the beginning of the universe becomes all the more amazing when one reflects on the fact that a state of “infinite density” is synonymous to “nothing.” There can be no object that possesses infinite density, for if it had any size at all it could still be even more dense.

Mr B replies :
-If  you’re finding yourself thinking, “…uh …what!?” after reading that then you’re not alone.  This is an extremely sloppy piece of work, and it’s hard to imagine that Mr A, a man with two PhDs, could have seriously written such a thing. Here are three problems with this argument:

#1: Mr A writes, “…if [the singularity] had any size at all…” but the singularity predicted by the Standard model doesn’t have any size at all. So to put it bluntly, this means that Mr A’s justification doesn’t even apply to the proper situation. HAHAHAHAHHAHA... (Mr B obviously doesn't understand irony, does he?)

#2: Mr A writes “There can be no object that possesses infinite density,” but the singularity is defined as a state of infinite density. So, even if his justification for this claim made sense, all it proves is that singularities, as they are defined by physics and mathematics, cannot exist. And because the Standard model predicts this singularity, it only means that the standard model is incorrect in this regard (which is probably true). BRAVO, GREAT INFERENCE SINCE IF IT IS WRONG IN THIS REGARD THEN IT IS ENTIRELY WRONG BECAUSE IF YOU BUILD SOMETHING ON THE BASIS OF "NOTHING" THEN EVERYTHING YOU PUT ON "IT" WILL ALSO BE "NOTHING" (OF NO VALUE AND WITHOUT SENSE)...HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA....

#3: Mr A is claiming that “‘infinite density’ is synonymous with ‘nothing,”” but he only attempts to demonstrate that a state of “infinite density” is impossible. It simply doesn’t follow. As the philosopher Wes Morriston pointed out :

>>>No one would suppose that it follows from the fact that there can be no round squares, that “round square” is synonymous with “nothing.” But neither should anyone suppose it follows from the fact (assuming it is a fact) that there can be no infinitely dense objects, that “infinite density” is synonymous with “nothing.”<<<
DO YOU FEEL A HEADACHE??? HAHAHAHHAHAHA....

Mr B concludes :
---To compound the confusion, Craig goes on to quote Fred Hoyle saying that the universe, according to the Standard Big Bang model, was shrunk down to “nothing at all.”  But as I’ve elaborated upon in a previous post, Hoyle was only talking in terms of volume – he didn’t even mention density.

Furthermore, in the glossary to The Inflationary Universe (amazon), theoretical physicist Alan Guth notes that a singularity should also have an infinite pressure and an infinite temperature.  How does Craig explain these properties as being “synonymous with nothing?”  As far as I’ve looked, he never does, but I can assume that his explanation would be as ridiculous as the one he gives for infinite density.
I AM DYING OF LAUGHTER...HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.....

3. If the Big Bang singularity possessed infinite density before the event, how did the density become less than infinite after the event?

 Infinite density divided by any spacial volume remains infinite mathematically, so what happened to stop the density being infinite?
 
I have heard some describe the density as 'nearly infinite' to get around this issue. But what does nearly infinite mean? Does it even make any sense?
 
If the singularity was not infinite in density, but instead very, very dense, then this implies that there was something there to begin with and suddenly we have lost our ultimate free lunch?


IN ADDITION :

AD HOC THEORIES BEGIN WITH A BIG BANG

"...Such a condition would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe, analoguus, in a sense, to the ancient conception of a central Earth...This hypothesis cannot be disproved, but it is unwelcome and would only be accepted as a last resort in order to save the phenomena. Therefore we disregard this possibility...the unwelcome position of a favored location must be avoided at all costs...such a favored position is intolerable...Therefore, in order to restore homogeneity, and to escape the horror of a unique position....must be compensated by spatial curvature. There seems to be no other escape."
- Edwin Hubble (The Observational Approach to Cosmology 193, pp 40,41,48-49)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 10:33:27 AM by cikljamas »
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2018, 10:42:41 AM »
3. If the Big Bang singularity possessed infinite density before the event, how did the density become less than infinite after the event?

 Infinite density divided by any spacial volume remains infinite mathematically, so what happened to stop the density being infinite?
Why are you dividing density by volume?
Density is mass divided by volume. To find mass you multiply by volume. If the volume's zero, you get zero times infinity which is undefined. And of course, any mass over zero is infinite.
You get finite density from infinite density, int his case, by increasing the volume.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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frenat

  • 3752
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2018, 11:42:18 AM »

*2.* VAN ALLEN BELT ISSUE :

Alen Bean says his mission had no problem with Van Allen Belt (radiation) because it hadn't been discovered yet (at the time)....lol...lol...lol...lol...lol...

Alan Bean never said that.  why do you lie?

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 12:20:39 PM »
Notice the distribution of the HH typo and the unequal length of all strings. You typed every one of them out. No copy/paste. Maybe even a little foam at the mouth for appearances sake.
The source of your comment is from a creationism book that took me less than 2 minutes to find and obviously not relevant here. And you outright lied and attributed it to someone else. An astronaut no less. One that walked on the Moon. You need to seek help elsewhere. I'm sure your questions can be dealt with in a more reassuring manner by someone else. Stay strong x

--

Since I'm not buying into this guys bullshit, can I have my second warning now?

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2018, 12:38:43 PM »
What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?
Who cares? It's totally irrelevant.
The Heliocentric Globe does not depend in any way on an allegedly expanding Universe.

Heliocentric Globe model of the solar system was developed centuries before Hubble came along.

But, if you insist on an answer, then
                  the universe is (allegedly) expanding from the sun out to say the planet Pluto is about 0.13 mm/s in a distance of about 5.9 billion km - big deal!

Next question.

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JackBlack

  • 21890
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2018, 01:49:12 PM »
First of all, your title and question together makes no sense.

The HC model of the universe has the sun stationary at the centre. It isn't expanding, and it is incorrect.
The HC model of the solar system has no rest of the universe for expansion.

What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?
It isn't a simple speed.
It expands at a rate of ~ 2.3E-18 per second.

No physical law that forbids it??? As long as edges of the Universe can't see each other, every physical law can be violeted.
What law needs to be violated?

Such logic reminds me to this :
Wow, second post and you are already trying to change the topic.

NOW, THIS IS THE QUESTION :
If the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate from the very first moment of it's creation (big bang), then what is the speed at which the universe is expanding this very moment (after 13,8 billion LONG years have passed)???
Again, not a simple question as it isn't a simple speed, and we don't know how large the universe is.
It is currently expanding at a rate of roughly 2.3 E-18/s

IT MUST BE STATED THAT THESE COME DUE TO THE BREAKING DOWN LAST BIT OF SANITY OF HUMAN MIND!
Not in the slightest.
If you think it is, feel free to explain why.

I'll just skip over your insults and pretend non-answers.

1. What is the Universe Expanding Into?
There are 2 options.
Either empty space around the universe, or the space itself is expanding.
The latter is like asking what the surface of the balloon expands into.
It is the surface itself which is expanding.

2. Can a Singularity Be Described as “Nothing?”
No. Who cares?
No one is saying the singularity is nothing, except perhaps you.

There can be no object that possesses infinite density, for if it had any size at all it could still be even more dense.
Yet if it has no size, i.e. is a singularity, then it doesn't matter how much mass it has as it would be infinite density.
Infinite does not mean maximal.

3. If the Big Bang singularity possessed infinite density before the event, how did the density become less than infinite after the event?
It didn't.
The singularity didn't exist after the event.
It expanded. It began to to have a spatial extent.
This means its density is finite.

Infinite density divided by any spacial volume remains infinite mathematically, so what happened to stop the density being infinite?
And here you go ignoring how the math works.
It doesn't just magically have the property of magic infinite density, especially as expansion (or changing the volume it takes up) would change the density.
Instead it has some mass with 0 spatial extent which results in it having infinite density.
When it expands, it now has some mass with a non-zero spatial extent giving it a finite density.

P.S. You didn't even do this pathetic crap right.
To figure out the density after expansion, you note the mass needs to remain constant, which means p*V=k
So p1*V1=p2*V2.
So p2=p1*V1/V2.
So it isn't simply infinite density divided by a volume.
It is infinite density, multiplied by 0 volume, divided by some finite volume.
So what is infinite times 0?

I have heard some describe the density as 'nearly infinite' to get around this issue. But what does nearly infinite mean? Does it even make any sense?
It means the spatial extend was very very small.

"...Such a condition would imply that we occupy a unique position in the universe
Not in the slightest.
The whole point is that the entire universe is expanding.
That singularity was everywhere. It occupied the entirety of the universe.
If you trace any point back, removing the expansion, it ends up in the same place.
So it requires no space in the universe to be special.

I also notice that is just copy pasted from elsewhere.
Perhaps you can try to provide your own thoughts on the matter?
Rather than just copying and pasting crap (including pure ullshit by a somewhat well known conman, William lame Craig) which has already been refuted.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2018, 01:56:18 PM »
In case it slipped your mind, the OP is: "What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?"

 ;D ;D ;D Have you forgotten the OP of your own thread so soon?  ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: cikljamas
*2.* VAN ALLEN BELT ISSUE :

Alen Bean says his mission had no problem with Van Allen Belt (radiation) because it hadn't been discovered yet (at the time)....lol...lol...lol...lol...lol...
----------------------------------------
Cozmik funk rabbitt
5 days ago
So all you have to do is close your eyes while going thru the Van Allen belt and you're protected from radiation WOW!!!!!! Amazing?
----------------------------------------------
Chante Moody
3 days ago
So, the Van Allen Belt didn't cause them problems because they hadn't discovered it yet? Who knew life really was like a Wily Coyote cartoon and you could do things like walk straight off of cliffs without falling as long as you didn't realize you were in danger??!! Well, I'm going to change my parenting style based off of this knowledge. I won't teach my baby about bad strangers, accidental burns, or anything else dangerous, because what she doesn't know can't hurt her. I won't have to waste money on medicine, child car seats, babysitters, etc., because as long as I keep her ignorant of danger she can't get hurt. why teach her not to rub with scissors when I could just keep her safe my keeping her ignorant of the possible dangers associated with it? ;)?
Yes, I've often said that ignorant small minds ridicule what they are incapable of understanding.

1) Please give the exact source of the statement "Alen(sic) Bean says his mission had no problem with Van Allen Belt (radiation) because it hadn't been discovered yet (at the time)".
For a start, you can't even get Alan Bean's right! And I do not mean from your selectively edited video!

2) Who better to explain the Van Allen belt issue than James Van Allen himself?
Quote from: SpitfireIX, Cosmoquest Forum
Statement from James Van Allen on radiation effects
SpitfireIX
Hello, all.

I recently received the following e-mail from James Van Allen in response to a request for his comments on the radiation effects of the Van Allen belts. I post it here as a possible aid to other debunkers. I have edited out sections of my original e-mail for length; Professor Van Allen's response is reprinted in its entirety.

My request:

My question to you, Professor Van Allen, is this. I have read that you have "denounced" the conspiracy theorists' claims that radiation in the Van Allen belts would have killed the astronauts. I have also seen a quote from you about what utter nonsense the Fox special was. Could you please, if possible, point me to any sources in print or on the web where you have been extensively quoted? If there are none that you know of, and it wouldn't be too much trouble, I would appreciate it if you could reply with a brief statement on the subject. In all my recent studies about the moon-conspiracy theories, the cornerstone of most arguments appears to be that radiation is what makes interplanetary space travel impossible. I feel that there is no person better qualified to debunk this absurd claim (and no one more likely to be taken seriously) than you. Of course, some conspiracists will say that you are in on the conspiracy yourself, but we can never hope actually to convince them.

Professor Van Allen's response:

          Dear Mr. Lambert,

In reply to your e-mail, I send you the following copy of a response that I wrote to another inquiry about 2 months ago --

  • The radiation belts of the Earth do, indeed, pose important constraints on the safety of human space flight.

  • The very energetic (tens to hundreds of MeV) protons in the inner radiation belt are the most dangerous and most difficult to shield against. Specifically, prolonged flights (i.e., ones of many months' duration) of humans or other animals in orbits about the Earth must be conducted at altitudes less than about 250 miles in order to avoid significant radiation exposure.

  • A person in the cabin of a space shuttle in a circular equatorial orbit in the most intense region of the inner radiation belt, at an altitude of about 1000 miles, would be subjected to a fatal dosage of radiation in about one week.

  • However, the outbound and inbound trajectories of the Apollo spacecraft cut through the outer portions of the inner belt and because of their high speed spent only about 15 minutes in traversing the region and less than 2 hours in traversing the much less penetrating radiation in the outer radiation belt. The resulting radiation exposure for the round trip was less than 1% of a fatal dosage - a very minor risk among the far greater other risks of such flights. I made such estimates in the early 1960s and so informed NASA engineers who were planning the Apollo flights. These estimates are still reliable.

  • The recent Fox TV show, which I saw, is an ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense. The claim that radiation exposure during the Apollo missions would have been fatal to the astronauts is only one example of such nonsense.

James A. Van Allen
--Doug

See: Cosmoquest Forum > The Proving Grounds > Conspiracy Theories > Statement from James Van Allen on radiation effects

It is just possible that James Van Allen knows a lot more about the Van Allen Belts than you do Mr Cikljamas.

In closing, you might read: Re: Definite proof - Moon Landing A Hoax « Reply #9 on: September 20, 2016, 07:55:27 PM ».
Here's a little bit from it:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
All from CLAVIUS ENVIRONMENT, Radiation and the Van Allen Belts
and while you are at it learn a bit about types of radiation, because you are clearly quite ignorant, see CLAVIUS ENVIRONMENT, Radiation Primer.

Put simply:
1) NASA had done much study of the Van Allen Belts before the mission. All the information we have on the comes from NASA!

2) The radiation is mainly charged particles, which unlike gamma radiation, require relatively little lightweight shielding.

3) Whatever you might claim, the trajectories were chosen to minimise the time in the VABs.

And I stress, ALL you know of the Van Allen Belts comes from NASA (and possibly other space agencies), so stop pretending that you know more than they do.

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sokarul

  • 19303
  • Extra Racist
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2018, 04:07:30 PM »
cikljamas as others pointed out, you have to lie to make a point. I'm not even sure what the point of your video was but it's full of lies, just like your post.
Your youtube video stole video from  another youtube video and edited it to make it look like the footage was fake. But if you watch the original youtube video you will see that the real footage matches human movements and your youtube video was edited to dupe people like you.
I suggest you start at the beginning if you have time. Other wise the video will start at the stolen footage part.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 02:27:53 AM »
cikljamas as others pointed out, you have to lie to make a point. I'm not even sure what the point of your video was but it's full of lies, just like your post.
Your youtube video stole video from  another youtube video and edited it to make it look like the footage was fake. But if you watch the original youtube video you will see that the real footage matches human movements and your youtube video was edited to dupe people like you.
I suggest you start at the beginning if you have time. Other wise the video will start at the stolen footage part.

PROBLEM No. 1 :
 Heine ken thomsen 10 hours ago
Notice how the falcon "feather" jump up from the rock when it hits the rock (about 5cm), just like a fork would do, when you drop it on a rock, a real feather would not do that, was the feather made of metal ???
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odiupicku replied :
Yes, it was : METAL FEATHER BOUNCES OF THE "MOON'S" SURFACE :

PROBLEM No 2 :
Alastair Andrew 25 minutes ago
I bet not many people can jump vertically 18" from standing. I tried it with my 170lb son on my back and managed about 3"! On the moon with 1/6th gravity that should equal 18" which looked about right. By the way I am a non believer, but for other reasons.?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

odiupicku replies :

Young himself and his crewmate Charlie Duke engaged in a high-jump contest at the end Apollo 16's third moonwalk; Duke estimated that Young had jumped “about four feet [120 centimeters]”. Duke made an equally high jump, but fell backwards onto his backpack. In his book Moonwalker, he reported that it was “the only time in our whole lunar stay that I had a real moment of panic and thought I had killed myself. The suit and backpack weren't designed to support a four-foot fall. Had the backpack broken or the suit split open, I would have lost my air. A rapid decompression, or as one friend calls it, a high-altitude hiss-out, and I would have been dead instantly. Fortunately, everything held together.”

Neil Armstrong reported that he jumped up to the third rung of Apollo 11's LM ladder, which was “easily five or six feet [150-180 centimeters] above the ground”. His leaps are visible in the recordings of the TV transmission of his moonwalk. However, Armstrong refrained from further experimentation, because he noted that “there was a tendency to tip over backward on a high jump. One time I came close to falling and decided that was enough of that.”*

* Apollo 11 Technical Crew Debriefing, 31 July 1969, Section 10, pages 61 and 28. -- *ROFLMAO* --
----------------------------------------------------------------
PROBLEM No 3 :
MAGA 6 hours ago
I think it is hilarious that the astronauts fall and drag their suits in the moon surface without being worried about ripping the material. 

"If they put a hole in their suits they would die. After around 10 seconds max, you would have used up all of the oxygen in your body and you’d lose consciousness.  You may argue, saying “But I can hold my breath for minutes!”  The situation in space is a little different than here on Earth due to the lack of outside pressure. In fact, if you hold your breath for any reason, you will be in big trouble because the air in your lungs will rapidly expand and rupture your lungs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROBLEM No 4 :
Tony Hind 4 hours ago
I know someone who spoke to person who was directly involved with medical care for the astronauts on one of the Apollo missions. I had only a few weeks ago said to my friend about the moon landings being fake.  So they asked this person out of the blue "So did they really go to the moon" ? This person just stopped and became flustered embarrassed and immediately changed the subject. My friend who was not a believer in fake moon lands after seeing that reaction now feels that they are indeed fake.?

IT WILL BE CONTINUED (AT YOUR REQUEST)...
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

*

JackBlack

  • 21890
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 02:34:15 AM »
PROBLEM No. 1 :
Completely irrelevant for the thread.

If you wish to discuss your ignorance on the moon landing, do so in another thread.

This one is about the expanding universe.

Do you accept the answers given? Did you have anything more to ask about it?

*

cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2018, 02:44:41 AM »
PROBLEM No. 1 :
Completely irrelevant for the thread.

If you wish to discuss your ignorance on the moon landing, do so in another thread.

This one is about the expanding universe.

Do you accept the answers given? Did you have anything more to ask about it?

--I was asking :
   
Quote
What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?

   
Quote
If the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate from the very first moment of it's creation (big bang), then what is the speed at which the universe is expanding this very moment (after 13,8 billion LONG years have passed)

--You answered :
Quote
It isn't a simple speed.
It expands at a rate of ~ 2.3E-18 per second.

Maybe you can give us your estimation in a form of km per second, or miles per second, what do you think?
If the speed of light is 300 000 km per second, then the speed of the expansion of the universe at this very moment is let's say : speed of light times how much exactly (or at least approximately), according to you???

EDIT :

--- At which speed one edge of the universe is moving away from another (which is on the opposite side) edge of the universe?

--- At which speed some 10 ly distant (from us) galaxy is moving away from us right now?

« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 02:52:41 AM by cikljamas »
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

?

Ising

  • 125
  • I can't hear you over the sound of my awesomeness
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2018, 03:38:56 AM »
PROBLEM No. 1 :
Completely irrelevant for the thread.

If you wish to discuss your ignorance on the moon landing, do so in another thread.

This one is about the expanding universe.

Do you accept the answers given? Did you have anything more to ask about it?

--I was asking :
   
Quote
What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?

   
Quote
If the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate from the very first moment of it's creation (big bang), then what is the speed at which the universe is expanding this very moment (after 13,8 billion LONG years have passed)

--You answered :
Quote
It isn't a simple speed.
It expands at a rate of ~ 2.3E-18 per second.

Maybe you can give us your estimation in a form of km per second, or miles per second, what do you think?
If the speed of light is 300 000 km per second, then the speed of the expansion of the universe at this very moment is let's say : speed of light times how much exactly (or at least approximately), according to you???

EDIT :

--- At which speed one edge of the universe is moving away from another (which is on the opposite side) edge of the universe?

--- At which speed some 10 ly distant (from us) galaxy is moving away from us right now?

You can't measure space expansion in km/s since the relative velocity between two objects due to expansion depends proportionally on the distance between them. Usually, people measure them in km/s/Mpc, but one could, as JackBlack did, express it in /s. As for your two questions :
- The diameter of the observable Universe is approximately 28.5 Gpc, which means both "edges" have a relative velocity of 70*28500  = 2 000 000 km/s, or 6.65 times the speed of light.
- A 10 ly (or 3 pc) away galaxy moves away from us with a speed of 70*0.000003 = 0.00021 km/s, or 0.76 km/h

*

JackBlack

  • 21890
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 04:24:49 AM »
Maybe you can give us your estimation in a form of km per second, or miles per second, what do you think?
If the speed of light is 300 000 km per second, then the speed of the expansion of the universe at this very moment is let's say : speed of light times how much exactly (or at least approximately), according to you???

EDIT :

--- At which speed one edge of the universe is moving away from another (which is on the opposite side) edge of the universe?

--- At which speed some 10 ly distant (from us) galaxy is moving away from us right now?
All you need to do is multiple the distance by the expansion rate.
So a hypothetical 10 ly away galaxy is moving away at a rate of ~2.3E-17 ly/second, which is 0.000221 km/s (0.2 m/s), which is ~ 3.4E-10 times the speed of light.

However, 10 ly is very close astronomically speaking.
The nearest star excluding Sol is only 4.2 ly away. The Milky way is ~ 100 000 ly across.

The nearest major galaxy is 2.5 million ly away.
That brings it up to 55 km/s, or 0.00018 times the speed of light.
However, at this scale there are complications due to the gravitational interactions of nearby galaxies.

As for the universe, the observable universe is ~ 93 billion light years wide.
This puts the expansion at 2053037 km/s, or ~ 6.8 times the speed of light.
However that is based upon projecting the already visible universe to what its size and expansion rate would currently be.
The universe we see is a lot smaller as the more distant places are being observed very far in the past.

As for the universe,

*

rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2018, 04:33:58 AM »
<< Off topic material deleted >>
Your OP was
What is the speed at which the universe is (allegedly) expanding?
And that was totally irrelevant to the HelioCentric Solar System.

1) If you want a topic about modern Cosmology, say so in the title.
2) If you want a thread on the moon landing conspiracy, be honest and make another thread on the "Moon Landing Conspiracy".

You asked JackBlack:
--- At which speed one edge of the universe is moving away from another (which is on the opposite side) edge of the universe?
JackBlack gave you the expansion rate as
It isn't a simple speed.
It expands at a rate of ~ 2.3E-18 per second.
If you can't work that out for yourself you are totally unqualified for even entering into a debate on the expansion of the Universe,

You can do sums

Quote from: cikljamas
--- At which speed some 10 ly distant (from us) galaxy is moving away from us right now?
There no galaxies other than ours within 10 ly. The closest galaxy is
Quote
Andromeda galaxy.
At a distance of about 2.5 million light years, the Andromeda galaxy (also known as NGC 224 and M31) is the nearest galaxy to the Earth apart from smaller companion galaxies such as the Magellanic Clouds. Like the Milky Way, Andromeda is a spiral galaxy.
The faint star, Ross 154, is about 9.6 ly from earth and is approaching us at about –10.7 km/s. Looks like the expanding Universe is affecting it much!

Any expansion of the Universe becomes significant far far from our Galaxy.

As I said at the outset. Whether the Universe is expanding or not is totally irrelevant to the HelioCentric Solar System.

*

cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2018, 04:52:47 AM »
You can't measure space expansion in km/s since the relative velocity between two objects due to expansion depends proportionally on the distance between them. Usually, people measure them in km/s/Mpc, but one could, as JackBlack did, express it in /s. As for your two questions :
- The diameter of the observable Universe is approximately 28.5 Gpc, which means both "edges" have a relative velocity of 70*28500  = 2 000 000 km/s, or 6.65 times the speed of light.
- A 10 ly (or 3 pc) away galaxy moves away from us with a speed of 70*0.000003 = 0.00021 km/s, or 0.76 km/h

Having in mind this quote...
Quote
QUOTE 2 :
"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be seen again." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/104-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/expansion-of-the-universe/616-is-the-universe-expanding-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate
...how far from us are those galaxies which right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light?

QUOTE No 2a
:

One frequent question I get is whether we can break the light barrier—because unless we can break the light barrier, the distant stars will always be unreachable.

Most textbooks say that nothing can go faster than light, but that statement actually should be qualified: The answer is yes, you can break the light barrier, but not in the way we see in the movies.

The Big Bang itself expanded much faster than the speed of light. But this only means that "nothing can go faster than light." Since nothing is just empty space or vacuum, it can expand faster than light speed since no material object is breaking the light barrier. Therefore, empty space can certainly expand faster than light.


So nothing can go faster than light since nothing is just empty space??? Really now? Something has to be nothing to be able to go faster than light??? Are those galaxies which right now are moving from us faster than the speed of light, also nothing???

Now, something really interesting about "empty space of vacuum" :

"It is ironic that Einstein’s most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise was that no such medium existed…. Einstein… utterly rejected the idea of ether and inferred from its nonexistence that the equations of electromagnetism had to be relative. But this same thought process led in the end to the very ether he had first rejected, albeit one with some special properties that ordinary elastic matter does not have. The word “ether” has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum.

In the early days of relativity the conviction that light must be waves of something ran so strong that Einstein was widely dismissed. Even when Michelson and Morley demonstrated that the earth’s orbital motion through the ether could not be detected, opponents argued that the earth must be dragging an envelope of ether along with it because relativity was lunacy and could not possibly be right…. Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that such matter must have relativistic symmetry.

It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with “stuff” that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo."

- Robert B. Laughlin (1993 Nobel laureate in physics), "A Different Universe: Reinventing Physics from the Bottom Down", 2005, pp. 120-121).
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2018, 05:14:41 AM »
You can't measure space expansion in km/s since the relative velocity between two objects due to expansion depends proportionally on the distance between them. Usually, people measure them in km/s/Mpc, but one could, as JackBlack did, express it in /s. As for your two questions :
- The diameter of the observable Universe is approximately 28.5 Gpc, which means both "edges" have a relative velocity of 70*28500  = 2 000 000 km/s, or 6.65 times the speed of light.
- A 10 ly (or 3 pc) away galaxy moves away from us with a speed of 70*0.000003 = 0.00021 km/s, or 0.76 km/h

Having in mind this quote...
Quote
QUOTE 2 :
"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be seen again." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/104-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/expansion-of-the-universe/616-is-the-universe-expanding-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate
...how far from us are those galaxies which right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light?

QUOTE No 2a
:

One frequent question I get is whether we can break the light barrier—because unless we can break the light barrier, the distant stars will always be unreachable.

Most textbooks say that nothing can go faster than light, but that statement actually should be qualified: The answer is yes, you can break the light barrier, but not in the way we see in the movies.

The Big Bang itself expanded much faster than the speed of light. But this only means that "nothing can go faster than light." Since nothing is just empty space or vacuum, it can expand faster than light speed since no material object is breaking the light barrier. Therefore, empty space can certainly expand faster than light.


So nothing can go faster than light since nothing is just empty space??? Really now? Something has to be nothing to be able to go faster than light??? Are those galaxies which right now are moving from us faster than the speed of light, also nothing???

Now, something really interesting about "empty space of vacuum" :

"It is ironic that Einstein’s most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise was that no such medium existed…. Einstein… utterly rejected the idea of ether and inferred from its nonexistence that the equations of electromagnetism had to be relative. But this same thought process led in the end to the very ether he had first rejected, albeit one with some special properties that ordinary elastic matter does not have. The word “ether” has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum.

In the early days of relativity the conviction that light must be waves of something ran so strong that Einstein was widely dismissed. Even when Michelson and Morley demonstrated that the earth’s orbital motion through the ether could not be detected, opponents argued that the earth must be dragging an envelope of ether along with it because relativity was lunacy and could not possibly be right…. Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that such matter must have relativistic symmetry.

It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with “stuff” that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo."

- Robert B. Laughlin (1993 Nobel laureate in physics), "A Different Universe: Reinventing Physics from the Bottom Down", 2005, pp. 120-121).

Fortunately your comments can be dismissed just as easily as you dismiss those from other people. The difference is that they have actually put forth the time and effort to produce results.

*

JackBlack

  • 21890
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2018, 12:09:15 PM »
...how far from us are those galaxies which right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light?
Again, simple math.
1.3E+23 km away, or 4.3 GPc.

But again, we are not seeing them now.
We are seeing them in the distant past.

Are those galaxies which right now are moving from us faster than the speed of light, also nothing???
Again, it isn't a case of those objects moving away.
It is a case of the space between us and the object expanding.

As it deals with space itself expanding, it is not dealing with an object traveling through space.

Now, something really interesting about
Are you capable of providing your own thoughts?

?

Ising

  • 125
  • I can't hear you over the sound of my awesomeness
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 02:20:00 PM »
You can't measure space expansion in km/s since the relative velocity between two objects due to expansion depends proportionally on the distance between them. Usually, people measure them in km/s/Mpc, but one could, as JackBlack did, express it in /s. As for your two questions :
- The diameter of the observable Universe is approximately 28.5 Gpc, which means both "edges" have a relative velocity of 70*28500  = 2 000 000 km/s, or 6.65 times the speed of light.
- A 10 ly (or 3 pc) away galaxy moves away from us with a speed of 70*0.000003 = 0.00021 km/s, or 0.76 km/h

Having in mind this quote...
Quote
QUOTE 2 :
"Some of the misunderstandings surrounding this topic might come from confusion over what is meant by the universe "expanding faster than the speed of light." However, for the simplest interpretation of your question, the answer is that the universe does expand faster than the speed of light, and, perhaps more surprisingly, some of the galaxies we can see right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light! As a consequence of their great speeds, these galaxies will likely not be visible to us forever; some of them are right now emitting their last bit of light that will ever be able to make it all the way across space and reach us (billions of years from now). After that, we will observe them to freeze and fade, never to be seen again." READ MORE : http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/104-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/expansion-of-the-universe/616-is-the-universe-expanding-faster-than-the-speed-of-light-intermediate
...how far from us are those galaxies which right now are currently moving away from us faster than the speed of light?

QUOTE No 2a
:

One frequent question I get is whether we can break the light barrier—because unless we can break the light barrier, the distant stars will always be unreachable.

Most textbooks say that nothing can go faster than light, but that statement actually should be qualified: The answer is yes, you can break the light barrier, but not in the way we see in the movies.

The Big Bang itself expanded much faster than the speed of light. But this only means that "nothing can go faster than light." Since nothing is just empty space or vacuum, it can expand faster than light speed since no material object is breaking the light barrier. Therefore, empty space can certainly expand faster than light.


So nothing can go faster than light since nothing is just empty space??? Really now? Something has to be nothing to be able to go faster than light??? Are those galaxies which right now are moving from us faster than the speed of light, also nothing???

Now, something really interesting about "empty space of vacuum" :

"It is ironic that Einstein’s most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise was that no such medium existed…. Einstein… utterly rejected the idea of ether and inferred from its nonexistence that the equations of electromagnetism had to be relative. But this same thought process led in the end to the very ether he had first rejected, albeit one with some special properties that ordinary elastic matter does not have. The word “ether” has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum.

In the early days of relativity the conviction that light must be waves of something ran so strong that Einstein was widely dismissed. Even when Michelson and Morley demonstrated that the earth’s orbital motion through the ether could not be detected, opponents argued that the earth must be dragging an envelope of ether along with it because relativity was lunacy and could not possibly be right…. Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that such matter must have relativistic symmetry.

It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with “stuff” that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo."

- Robert B. Laughlin (1993 Nobel laureate in physics), "A Different Universe: Reinventing Physics from the Bottom Down", 2005, pp. 120-121).

I fail to see any valuable input here. All I can see is a little bit of "I don't know the difference between distance and comoving distance" and a whole lot of "sandokhanness". Do you even have an actual question to ask, or are you satisfied with the answers provided above ?

*

cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2018, 04:58:27 AM »

Are those galaxies which right now are moving from us faster than the speed of light, also nothing???
Again, it isn't a case of those objects moving away.
It is a case of the space between us and the object expanding.

As it deals with space itself expanding, it is not dealing with an object traveling through space.

It could be sensible (to a certain degree) to say that with respect to the very edge of the universe, but if we talk about everything else (all the rest of the universe) which is not the very edge of the universe then your objection is utter stupidity, because everything that is farther away from the edge of the universe (a.k.a. closer to the very center of the universe) must move through space of the very universe. On the other hand (dealing with an object which is situated at the very edge of the universe), you have to answer to this question :
1. What is the Universe Expanding Into?

This is the answer that you can get from those lunatics who believe in heliocentric theory and everything that comes with this ultimate insult to a human common sense :
--The short answer is that this is a nonsense question, the Universe isn’t expanding into anything, it’s just expanding. HAHAHHAHAHHAHA....
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2018, 05:10:36 AM »

Are those galaxies which right now are moving from us faster than the speed of light, also nothing???
Again, it isn't a case of those objects moving away.
It is a case of the space between us and the object expanding.

As it deals with space itself expanding, it is not dealing with an object traveling through space.

It could be sensible (to a certain degree) to say that with respect to the very edge of the universe, but if we talk about everything else (all the rest of the universe) which is not the very edge of the universe then your objection is utter stupidity, because everything that is farther away from the edge of the universe (a.k.a. closer to the very center of the universe) must move through space of the very universe. On the other hand (dealing with an object which is situated at the very edge of the universe), you have to answer to this question :
1. What is the Universe Expanding Into?

This is the answer that you can get from those lunatics who believe in heliocentric theory and everything that comes with this ultimate insult to a human common sense :
--The short answer is that this is a nonsense question, the Universe isn’t expanding into anything, it’s just expanding. HAHAHHAHAHHAHA....

E pur si muove.

And again with all the HAHAHs. I imagine you hammer your keyboard for every single letter whilst muttering "that'll show them how smart I am"

*

cikljamas

  • 2432
  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2018, 05:17:39 AM »
E pur si muove.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71225.msg1931338#msg1931338

And again with all the HAHAHs. I imagine you hammer your keyboard for every single letter whilst muttering "that'll show them how smart I am"

No, it is not about "that'll show them how smart I am", it is about "that'll show them how stupid they are"

I've just finished (below one of my youtube videos) one interesting conversation with my countryman, with these words :

There is no difference between average heliocentrist and average flat-earther, both of them are hardcore religious fanatics.
Had there been any way to prove that the Earth is submitted to any kind of motion, scientists would have supplied us with these proofs up until now, and by doing this they would have provided immortal fame for themselves. On the contrary : they provided immortal fame for the geocentric truth since every single attempt that had been made in order to prove heliocentric paradigm has failed, so far. Every failure of that sort is nothing else than the proof of the veracity of an opposite (geocentric) paradigm. I am going to end this conversation with this strong protest against the delusions of Modern Astronomy :

"It may be boldly asked where can the man be found, possessing the extraordinary gifts of Newton, who could suffer himself to be deluded by such a hocus-pocus, if he had not in the first instance willfully deceived himself; Only those who know the strength of self-deception, and the extent to which it sometimes trenches on dishonesty, are in a condition to explain the conduct of Newton and of Newton’s school. To support his unnatural theory Newton heaps fiction upon fiction, seeking to dazzle where he cannot convince. In whatever way or manner may have occurred this business, I must still say that I curse this modern history theory of Cosmology, and hope that perchance there may appear, in due time, some young scientists of genius, who will pick up courage enough to upset this universally disseminated DELIRIUM OF LUNATICS."
 ~ Goethe

Goodbye and good luck!

P. S. I daj si truda pažljivo procitati ovaj clanak koji sam ti linkao na samom pocetku prvog odgovora na tvoj prvi komentar : http://worldnpa.org/abstracts/abstracts_5969.pdf
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2018, 05:38:32 AM »
E pur si muove.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71225.msg1931338#msg1931338

And again with all the HAHAHs. I imagine you hammer your keyboard for every single letter whilst muttering "that'll show them how smart I am"

No, it is not about "that'll show them how smart I am", it is about "that'll show them how stupid they are"

I've just finished (below one of my youtube videos) one interesting conversation with my countryman, with these words :

There is no difference between average heliocentrist and average flat-earther, both of them are hardcore religious fanatics.
Had there been any way to prove that the Earth is submitted to any kind of motion, scientists would have supplied us with these proofs up until now, and by doing this they would have provided immortal fame for themselves. On the contrary : they provided immortal fame for the geocentric truth since every single attempt that had been made in order to prove heliocentric paradigm has failed, so far. Every failure of that sort is nothing else than the proof of the veracity of an opposite (geocentric) paradigm. I am going to end this conversation with this strong protest against the delusions of Modern Astronomy :

"It may be boldly asked where can the man be found, possessing the extraordinary gifts of Newton, who could suffer himself to be deluded by such a hocus-pocus, if he had not in the first instance willfully deceived himself; Only those who know the strength of self-deception, and the extent to which it sometimes trenches on dishonesty, are in a condition to explain the conduct of Newton and of Newton’s school. To support his unnatural theory Newton heaps fiction upon fiction, seeking to dazzle where he cannot convince. In whatever way or manner may have occurred this business, I must still say that I curse this modern history theory of Cosmology, and hope that perchance there may appear, in due time, some young scientists of genius, who will pick up courage enough to upset this universally disseminated DELIRIUM OF LUNATICS."
 ~ Goethe

Goodbye and good luck!

P. S. I daj si truda pažljivo procitati ovaj clanak koji sam ti linkao na samom pocetku prvog odgovora na tvoj prvi komentar : http://worldnpa.org/abstracts/abstracts_5969.pdf

If you had a rational argument to make, you wouldn't do it here. You would publish in the same journals used by the stupid people that you are projecting, using a language they can understand.

As far as quotes go, stick with just this - "If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is … If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it." - Richard Feynman.

You haven't read many publications if this is the kind of thing you rely upon.

Dare I even ask how many actual experiments you have performed in pursuit of this superior knowledge?

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cikljamas

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Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2018, 05:59:46 AM »
If you had a rational argument to make, you wouldn't do it here. You would publish in the same journals used by the stupid people that you are projecting, using a language they can understand.

As far as quotes go, stick with just this - "If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is … If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it." - Richard Feynman.

You haven't read many publications if this is the kind of thing you rely upon.

Dare I even ask how many actual experiments you have performed in pursuit of this superior knowledge?

*1.* No experiment has ever been performed with such excruciating persistence and meticulous precision, and in every conceivable manner, than that of trying to detect and measure the motion of the Earth. Yet they have all consistently and continually yielded a velocity for the Earth of exactly ZERO mph.

The toil of thousands of exasperated researchers, in the extremely varied experiments of Arago, De Coudre's induction, Fizeau, Fresnell drag, Hoek, Jaseja's lasers, Jenkins, Klinkerfuess, Michelson-Morley interferometry, Lord Rayleigh's polarimetry, Troughton-Noble torque, and the famous 'Airy's Failure' experiment, all conclusively failed to show any rotational or translational movement for the earth, whatsoever.

*A)* There are too many proofs that the earth is at rest, but i would like to show you one very primitive example which corroborates this already 100 % proven fact :

>>>A strong cast-iron cannon was placed with the muzzle upwards. The barrel was carefully tested with a plumb line, so that its true vertical direction was secured; and the breech of the gun was firmly embedded in sand up to the touch-hole, against which a piece of slow match was placed. The cannon had been loaded with powder and ball, previous to its position being secured. At a given moment the slow match at D was fired, and the operator retired to a shed. The explosion took place, and the ball was discharged in the direction A, B. In thirty seconds the ball fell back to the earth, from B to C; the point of contact, C, was only 8 inches from the gun, A. This experiment has been many times tried, and several times the ball fell back upon the mouth of the cannon; but the greatest deviation was less than 2 feet, and the average time of absence was 28 seconds; from which it is concluded that the earth on which the gun was placed did not move from its position during the 28 seconds the ball was in the atmosphere. Had there been motion in the direction from west to east, and at the rate of 600 miles per hour (the supposed velocity in the latitude of England), the result would have been as shown in fig. 49. The ball, thrown by the powder in the direction A, C, and acted on at the same moment by the earth's motion in the direction A, B, would take the direction A, D; meanwhile the earth and the cannon would have reached the position B, opposite to D. On the ball beginning to descend, and during the time of its descent, the gun would have passed on to the position S, and the ball would have dropped at B, a consider-able distance behind the point S. As the average time of the ball's absence in the atmosphere was 28 seconds--14 going upwards, and 14 in falling--we have only to multiply the time by the supposed velocity of the earth, and we find that instead of the ball coming down to within a few inches of the muzzle of the gun, it should have fallen behind it a distance of 8400 feet, or more than a mile and a half! Such a result is utterly destructive of the idea of the earth's possible rotation.<<<

IMPORTANT CORRECTION : Mr Rowbotham calculated wrong : the ball coming down to within a few inches of the muzzle of the gun should have fallen behind it more than 4.6 miles (not "more than a mile and a half")!!!

*B)* The exact formula for the lateral deflection of a vertically fired projectile:

http://image.ibb.co/hHrJtm/formula3a.jpg

g = 32ft/s^2

TE = period of rotation = 86,400 s

LAMBDA = latitude


Bedford latitude = 52.13 degrees

d = 5.2 ft (far larger than the recorded 8 inches)

This is the best case scenario for the RE, taking into account the Coriolis force (which at the time of the publishing of Earth is not a Globe was not yet fully investigated and accounted for).

If the speed is taken into account:

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/reh10/lectures/ia-dyn-handout14.pdf


One of the easiest experiments which can be done to find out that the Earth is stationary.
-------

Not only that.

Within HC theory (rotating earth), when flying or rolling (black bird) 1000 km/h (which is roughly the alleged speed of the earth at 52 degrees N) WESTBOUND, that is to say : in counter direction of earth's rotation, we counteract (ENTIRELY - 100 % - cancel out) initial inertia (impetus), so that - if we carried out the same kind of an experiment (shooting the ball upwards) from the cannon which is attached to the moving frame of 1000 km/h fast object - we should expect the ball to come down much closer to the muzzle of the gun than in the case when the ball was discharged from a non-moving object (local frame of reference).

Why?

Within HC theory a non-moving object (local FOR) is in fact moving object (inertial FOR).

JackBlack (heliocentrist) could say : "So what?"

Well, Jack, do i really have to explain that to you?

Although our moving object is in motion within local FOR, this very motion - in counter direction of earth's rotation - is the very reason (which makes all the difference) why such discharged ball won't have any impetus in this case (shooting the ball upwards), while shooting the ball from the cannon which is attached to the non-moving (local FOR) frame to which is attached our stationary cannon (sitated at 52 degrees N) assumes 1000 km/h initial inertia (impetus) of our APPARENTLY stationary cannon, hence the ball that would be discharged from our APPARENTLY stationary cannon would have very significant impetus.

How HC believers are going to explain that? All that they can call upon is "air drag", however, Sandokhan provided for us very compelling explanations on which basis we can discard even that last remaining bit of HC hopes since we now know that higher layers of atmpshere can't keep the pace with the rigid earth.

JackBlack's objection :

>>>Not by the amounts you are claiming, and it has nothing to do with cancelling out inertia.
The reason is purely due to removing the Coriolis effect from the situation.
However you then have the competing effect of wind resistance and I don't think a cannonball moving at 1000 km/hr through the air (relative to the air) would still have a negligible effect. I think the wind is more likely to contribute and push it over.<<<

CIKLJAMAS (ODIUPICKU) RESPONDED LIKE THIS :

Now, we have to apply the same method as we did in the case of our decisive thought experiment in which we ensured 4 times greater speed of our runner (inside the 1000 m long train) with respect to the speed of the train.

We have to avoid such enormous speeds (so that nobody can complain about supposed air drag), even very low speeds will suffice, let's say 50 km/h. So, if we shot the bullet in the air from the back side of the train which moves WESTWARD (in counter direction of the alleged spin of the earth), and if HC theory were true we should have canceled out to a certain extent initial inertia (impetus) of our gun, and the ball should fall closer to the gun in accordance to such diminished degree of (non-existent) initial inertia.

Does this happen in reality???

*C)*
How high does a bullet go?

You know I like the MythBusters, right? Well, I have been meaning to look at the shooting bullets in the air myth for quite some time. Now is that time. If you didn't catch that particular episode, the MythBusters wanted to see how dangerous it was to shoot a bullet straight up in the air.

I am not going to shoot any guns, or even drop bullets - that is for the MythBusters. What I will do instead is make a numerical calculation of the motion of a bullet shot into the air. Here is what Adam said about the bullets:

    A .30-06 cartridge will go 10,000 feet (3 000 m) high and take 58 seconds to come back down
    A 9 mm will go 4000 feet and take 37 seconds to come back down.

READ MORE : https://www.wired.com/2009/09/how-high-does-a-bullet-go/

Let's consider 58 seconds needed time for a bullet to come back on the surface of the earth :

Using our formula above :

1. If we were at the North Pole our bullet should come back right in the gun muzzle.
2. If we were at the Equator our bullet should fall 75,27 feet (22,5 meters) away from our gun.

DOES THIS HAPPEN IN REALITY???

*2.* In my own words :


*3.* AETHER FIELD IS THERE - THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING :
http://worldnpa.org/abstracts/abstracts_5969.pdf
http://www.theprinciplemovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Albert-Einstein-The-Earth-Mover.pdf

*1.* Since  Einstein  chose  as  his  foundation  that  the  Earth  was  translating around the sun at 30 kms and thus postulated the ether  did  not  exist,  the  results  of  MMX  were  considered  “null”  and  all subsequent theorizing, including Special and General Relativity, was built on the assumption that the Earth was moving. Thus, Einstein  could  safely  develop  his  Special  Relativity  theory  with the accepted premise that space was a vacuum that did not possess any ponderable substance (i.e., ether). That Relativity theory was  the  direct  result  of  MMX  was  admitted  by  Einstein  in  a  speech  honoring  Michelson: 

“I  have  come  among  men  who  for many years have been true comrades with me in my labors. You,
my  honored  Dr.  Michelson,  began  with  this  work  when  I  was  only a little youngster, hardly three feet high. It was you who led the physicists into new paths, and through your marvelous experimental work paved the way for the development of the Theory of  Relativity.  You  uncovered  an  insidious  defect  in  the  ether  theory  of  light,  as  it  then  existed,  and  stimulated  the  ideas  of  H.  A.  Lorentz  and  Fitzgerald,  out  of  which  the  Special  Theory  of  Relativity  developed.  Without  your  work  this  theory  would  today be scarcely more than an interesting speculation; it was your verifications which first set the theory on a real basis.”


The realities of the scientific results, however, are quite different  than  what  was  assumed  by  Einstein  and  his  colleagues.  The  fact is, the MMX did measure an ether drift. It just didn’t measure a  drift  that  would  be  expected  if  the  Earth  were  moving  around  the  sun  at  30kms;  rather,  it  measured  a  drift  that  was  less  than  one-twentieth  of  30kms.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 06:01:24 AM by cikljamas »
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

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cikljamas

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  • Ex nihilo nihil fit
Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 06:06:50 AM »
JustWasted3HoursHere
21 hours ago
Odiupicku, now that you have accepted that the Earth is a ball, that puts the sun and moon far away when using the Eratosthenes of Cyrene method. And if the sun is far away, and is the cause of our daylight, then it must be very large indeed. And if it is far away and very large - larger than the Earth by a large margin - then doesn't it make sense that the smaller thing orbits the larger thing than the other way around? This is what we see all throughout our solar system: Small things orbiting large things. But when we try to keep the Earth at the center of this, it defies this common sense approach, with objects rotating around objects that are not even there. It looks pretty crazy:

If we then realize that the Sun at the center makes more sense, that also means that space exists and objects can travel through it (like planets). Human beings are smart and are very resourceful. Isn't it possible that human beings have worked out the solutions to the many problems inherent in space travel? That we did, in fact, go to the moon? And that simply denying the mountain of evidence in support of it, while accepting the "evidence" from people who do not even have training in those fields they are critiquing, does no one any favors?

The Japanese, Chinese, Indian and Russian space agencies all have sent spacecraft or probes to the moon, and several of them have come back with proof of the Apollo missions (like the 3D scans the Japanese SELENE probe did of the Apollo 15 moon site in 2008, which match the photos taken during the Apollo 15 mission perfectly). Isn't it a bit silly to really think that ALL of these guys are in on some massive conspiracy??
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Odiupicku replied :
+JustWated3HoursHere
-- Ptolemy had made it appear that the sun and stars revolved around a stationary earth, but Copernicus
advanced the theory that it was the earth which revolved around a stationary sun, while the stars
were fixed ; and either of these entirely opposite theories gives an equally satisfactory explanation of
the appearance of the sun by day and the stars by night. Copernicus did not produce any newly-
discovered fact to prove that Ptolemy was wrong, neither did he offer any proof that he himself was
right, but worked out his system to show that he could account for all the appearances of the heavens
quite as well as the Egyptian had done, though working on an entirely different hypothesis ; and offered
his new Heliocentric Theory as an alternative.

He argued that it was more reasonable to conceive the earth to be revolving round the sun than it was
to think of the sun revolving round the earth, because it was more reasonable that the smaller body should move round the greater.

And that is good logic.

We see that Copernicus recognized the physical law that the lesser shall be governed by the greater, and
that is the pivot upon which the whole of his astronomy turns ; but it is perfectly clear that in building up
his theories he assumed the earth to be much smaller than the sun, and also smaller than the stars ; and that
was pure assumption unsupported by any kind of fact. In the absence of any proof as to whether the
earth or the sun was the greater of the two, and having only the evidence of the senses to guide him,
it would have been more reasonable had he left astronomy as it was, seeing that the sun appeared to move
round the earth, while he himself was unconscious of any movement.

When De revolutionibus by Copernicus (1473-1543) was published in May of 1543, it used a text of the protestant theologian Andreas Osiander as an introduction, in which he explained that heliocentrism was a proposal of an astronomical model to facilitate the calculations of celestial motions, but he did not want to draw any realistic conclusions in the field of natural philosophy. In Bellarmine’s letter, the distinction is clear between the astronomer-mathematician who does calculations on one side and, on the other side, the natural philospher who qualitatively describes the real in light of a theologically inspired metaphysics:

«For there is no danger in saying that, by assuming the Earth moves and the sun stands still, one saves all of the appearances better than by postulating eccentrics and epicycles; and that is sufficient for the mathematician. However, it is different to want to affirm that in reality the sun is at the center of the world and only turns on itself, without moving from east to west, and the earth is in the third heaven and revolves with great speed around the sun; this is a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false.».

READ MORE : https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71225.msg1931338#msg1931338

TYCHONIC SYSTEM : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_system

-- If the moon were some 390 000 km away from the earth then the orbital (daily) speed of the moon would be 102 050 km per hour (which is less than alleged orbital speed of the earth). However, who says that the moon is so far away from the earth? I think that from geometrical point of view it would be quite acceptable if we assumed that the moon is "only" 100 000 km away from the earth. In that case the sun could orbit the earth at the distance which is twice that number (200 000). Interestingly, as noted in the book Huainanzi, in the 2nd century BC Chinese astronomers effectively inverted Eratosthenes' calculation of the curvature of the Earth to calculate the height of the sun above the earth. They arrived at a distance of 100,000 li (approximately 200,000 km). The Zhoubi Suanjing also discusses how to determine the distance of the Sun by measuring the length of noontime shadows at different latitudes, a method similar to Eratosthenes' measurement of the circumference of the Earth, but the Zhoubi Suanjing assumes that the Earth is flat. So if the moon were 100 000 km away from the earth then the diameter of the moon would be 875 km, and daily orbital speed of the moon around the earth would be 26 166 km/h...If the sun were 200 000 km away from the earth then the diameter of the sun would be 2000 km, and daily orbital speed of the sun around the stationary earth would be 52 333 km/h. Quite reasonable.
"I can't breathe" George Floyd RIP

Re: VERY SIMPLE QUESTION for HC believers!!!
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 06:48:22 AM »
...

No, you have misunderstood. How many actual experiments have you performed in pursuit of this superior knowledge?