Four cases together show beyond a reasonable doubt the earth is curved

Skyline Skepticism: The Lake Michigan Mirage

https://www.abc57.com/news/mirage-of-chicago-skyline-seen-from-michigan-shoreline

To those that doubt affects of refraction. The full Chicago skyline should be visible all the time if it weren't the case, barring clouds, rain or fog. However that’s not the case, it is always changing. I encourage anyone to go look for themselves.

The distance from Warren Dunes state park is about 53 miles across the lake to Chicago. Someone that’s six feet tall standing on the lake shore can only see about three miles to the horizon. If you climb to the top of Tower Hill (250ft) you can see almost 20 miles to the horizon

https://www.abc57.com/news/skyline-skepticism-the-lake-michigan-mirage

On a normal sunny day, say in summer you can only see a dozen or so of Chicago’s tallest buildings from southwest Michigan. Yes, you can see Chicago, just not all of it.
“Anything more than that, especially when you get above 10 or 12, something's happening, because that's not usually there," Nowicki said.
That something is a strong temperature inversion, warmer air above colder air, that causes light to bend.
“A mirage is just a case of atmospheric refraction, it’s caused by the fact you have temperature variations in the atmosphere and these cause density variations.”  says Doctor Mark Rennie, an associate professor in areo-optics at the University of Notre Dame. “So literally the speed of light varies within the air. And this variation of the speed of light has the effect of bending light rays."

https://www.abc57.com/news/skyline-skepticism-the-lake-michigan-mirage

In 1901, Henry Yule Oldham, a reader in geography at King's College, Cambridge, reproduced Wallace's results using three poles fixed at equal height above water level. When viewed through a theodolite, the middle pole was found to be about 6 feet (1.8 m) higher than the poles at each end.[10][11] This version of the experiment was taught in schools in England until photographs of the Earth from space became available, and it remains in the syllabus for the Indian Certificate of Secondary Education for 2023.[12][13][14][15]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment

Turning Torso (190m tall) - seen from 25km - 50km

Sun over Spitsbergen : the flat Earth Sun orbit!

Jos Leys

The distance from Warren Dunes state park is about 53 miles across the lake to Chicago. Someone that’s six feet tall standing on the lake shore can only see about three miles to the horizon. If you climb to the top of Tower Hill (250ft) you can see almost 20 miles to the horizon

If you're standing on a supposed globe and looking out to sea, let's say 5 feet eye line and absolute level vision, you would expect the sea to curve down and away from your sight.

The only way you could bring the sea and the atmosphere into level view would be to have only a theoretical line of the horizon at that level point and to do that would mean you have to be looking over a level sea against a distant atmosphere/sky.

It becomes worse for the global idealists when you start to use elevation because elevation and level sight offers a pinpoint view of the sky only and not the sea as a denser background to create a theoretical line.

It's impossible for us to be living on a globe. Impossible.

It's impossible for us to be living on a globe. Impossible.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 02, 2023, 05:35:00 AM

The distance from Warren Dunes state park is about 53 miles across the lake to Chicago. Someone that’s six feet tall standing on the lake shore can only see about three miles to the horizon. If you climb to the top of Tower Hill (250ft) you can see almost 20 miles to the horizon

Let's deal with this first.
Let's use some logic.

If you're standing on a supposed globe and looking out to sea, let's say 5 feet eye line and absolute level vision, you would expect the sea to curve down and away from your sight.
The only way you could bring the sea and the atmosphere into level view would be to have only a theoretical line of the horizon at that level point and to do that would mean you have to be looking over a level sea against a distant atmosphere/sky.

It becomes worse for the global idealists when you start to use elevation because elevation and level sight offers a pinpoint view of the sky only and not the sea as a denser background to create a theoretical line.

It's impossible for us to be living on a globe. Impossible.

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 13, 2023, 12:00:08 AM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 02, 2023, 05:35:00 AM

The distance from Warren Dunes state park is about 53 miles across the lake to Chicago. Someone that’s six feet tall standing on the lake shore can only see about three miles to the horizon. If you climb to the top of Tower Hill (250ft) you can see almost 20 miles to the horizon

Let's deal with this first.
Let's use some logic.

If you're standing on a supposed globe and looking out to sea, let's say 5 feet eye line and absolute level vision, you would expect the sea to curve down and away from your sight.
The only way you could bring the sea and the atmosphere into level view would be to have only a theoretical line of the horizon at that level point and to do that would mean you have to be looking over a level sea against a distant atmosphere/sky.

It becomes worse for the global idealists when you start to use elevation because elevation and level sight offers a pinpoint view of the sky only and not the sea as a denser background to create a theoretical line.

It's impossible for us to be living on a globe. Impossible.

Unlike JackBlack, I concede that in your case, seeing is believing, and you simply can't see the curve.

Alternatively, you have seen the curve, on the horizontal plane, as slight as it is at 5 feet above sea level out to the horizon at sea, but your eyes are not powerful enough to perceive that curve.

But, as demonstrated, you could perceive the the earth "curve down and away from your sight", if you stand on the shoreline and are patient enough to observe a large cargo ship or cuise ship travelling away towards the horizon, disappearing hull first.

I'm not sure how your flat Earth wired brain would explain that as a flat Earth proof and not a globe Earth proof? That's a pretty solid globe Earth proof to me. Check mate, flat earther!

As a flat earther, how do you twist that globe Earth proof into a flat Earth proof?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 13, 2023, 02:14:46 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 13, 2023, 12:00:08 AM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 02, 2023, 05:35:00 AM

The distance from Warren Dunes state park is about 53 miles across the lake to Chicago. Someone that’s six feet tall standing on the lake shore can only see about three miles to the horizon. If you climb to the top of Tower Hill (250ft) you can see almost 20 miles to the horizon

Let's deal with this first.
Let's use some logic.

If you're standing on a supposed globe and looking out to sea, let's say 5 feet eye line and absolute level vision, you would expect the sea to curve down and away from your sight.
The only way you could bring the sea and the atmosphere into level view would be to have only a theoretical line of the horizon at that level point and to do that would mean you have to be looking over a level sea against a distant atmosphere/sky.

It becomes worse for the global idealists when you start to use elevation because elevation and level sight offers a pinpoint view of the sky only and not the sea as a denser background to create a theoretical line.

It's impossible for us to be living on a globe. Impossible.

Unlike JackBlack, I concede that in your case, seeing is believing, and you simply can't see the curve.

Alternatively, you have seen the curve, on the horizontal plane, as slight as it is at 5 feet above sea level out to the horizon at sea, but your eyes are not powerful enough to perceive that curve.

But, as demonstrated, you could perceive the the earth "curve down and away from your sight", if you stand on the shoreline and are patient enough to observe a large cargo ship or cuise ship travelling away towards the horizon, disappearing hull first.

I'm not sure how your flat Earth wired brain would explain that as a flat Earth proof and not a globe Earth proof? That's a pretty solid globe Earth proof to me. Check mate, flat earther!

As a flat earther, how do you twist that globe Earth proof into a flat Earth proof?

Probably blatant FE falsehoods like this…



https://www.pinterest.com/bigal8141957/round-earth/

Notice the whole camera view isn’t a good distance above the table.   But the camera view is positioned below the table top.

So taking the typical route of refusing to provide any explanation for how this would work on a FE, and instead throwing out the same refuted BS against the RE?

Unlike JackBlack, I concede that in your case, seeing is believing, and you simply can't see the curve.

Alternatively, you have seen the curve, on the horizontal plane, as slight as it is at 5 feet above sea level out to the horizon at sea, but your eyes are not powerful enough to perceive that curve.

But, as demonstrated, you could perceive the the earth "curve down and away from your sight", if you stand on the shoreline and are patient enough to observe a large cargo ship or cuise ship travelling away towards the horizon, disappearing hull first.

I'm not sure how your flat Earth wired brain would explain that as a flat Earth proof and not a globe Earth proof? That's a pretty solid globe Earth proof to me. Check mate, flat earther!

As a flat earther, how do you twist that globe Earth proof into a flat Earth proof?

 That's because there is no curve.

 It works on a level over distance because our eyes lose the distant light back to them which creates a narrow view top to bottom just as the eyes do when you reach a pinpoint vanishing point.

Quote from: JackBlack on April 13, 2023, 02:37:00 AM

So taking the typical route of refusing to provide any explanation for how this would work on a FE, and instead throwing out the same refuted BS against the RE?

It works on a level over distance because our eyes lose the distant light back to them which creates a narrow view top to bottom just as the eyes do when you reach a pinpoint vanishing point.

Light to dark creates the illusion of a horizon line.
This would be impossible on a downward curvature no matter how big people pretend their global Earth is.

It works on a level over distance because our eyes lose the distant light back to them which creates a narrow view top to bottom just as the eyes do when you reach a pinpoint vanishing point.

Light to dark creates the illusion of a horizon line.

This would be impossible on a downward curvature no matter how big people pretend their global Earth is.

They only disappear hull first because the light above counteracts the lesser light below back to our vision, omitting the lower part of the ship.

When objects first appear to be rising upward, while on a surface, which ALSO appears to be rising upward, when in full view, before the horizon, which appears even HIGHER than the objects appear to be, at that point.

The object appears higher, on a surface that also appears higher, before it's not seen, beyond those horizons which appear so much higher, at a distance.   

When we see the oceans, and see objects that are ON the oceans, appear to be rising up, appear to be higher up, when seen at a greater distance, it is due to perspective, of course.

It is also perspective which makes horizons form, over the Earth's surface, and why we cannot see objects past the horizons, of course. When we see the oceans rising up higher and higher with more distance away, but not when objects aren't seen past the horizons, which appear much higher, of course, due to perspective, but they really DO curve down after that! Nice one!

Except perspective, distance, and depth, are always drawn with straight lines, and flat surfaces, which depict the REAL world, as the Earth DOES have a flat surface.

All our instruments measure the surface as flat, depict horizons as straight, horizontal lines across the Earth's surface, which is the case.


If you say 'curvature' has measurement of 8 inches per mile, squared per every additional mile,
what is it based on? Not any measurement, supposedly, because it's 'too slight to measure', or some crap like that.


Levels measure for flat, straight, horizontal surfaces, and level flight in air, and so forth,

And we also know all surveyors assume surfaces are flat, and work from that assumption, in their projects, which somehow don't need to account for your 'curvature' at all!

If there WAS 'curvature', and it was measured to be 8 inches per mile, squared every mile, why would they not assume all surfaces have such 'curvature', and work from that premise? They certainly WOULD assume that, if they thought it WAS curved at all.

All our instruments measure the surface as flat,

Rainy Lake Experiment: Conclusion

http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Rainy+Lake+Experiment%3A+Conclusion

Observations
All observations agree very well with the predictions of the Globe Model, but contradict the Flat Earth Model.

Refraction
The Terrestrial Refraction has an influence on the observations. But distorted images reveal strong refraction. The signs of low standard refraction are clear and stable images. Under these conditions the observations agree very well with the Globe Model.

To get the same observations on a Flat Earth, the Refraction in the whole atmosphere would have to be physically impossible strongly negative. See Refraktion in the Flat Earth Model.

GPS/GNSS

The cm-accurate measurement of positions in space using Differential GPS enables us to measure the radius of the earth and earth's curvature without optical detours.

Summary
All data and observations agree with the predictions of the Globe Model, which includes Terrestrial Refraction. The predictions for the Flat Earth Model, however, contradict the observations.

The Rainy Lake Experiment shows even better than the Bedford Level Experiment that the earth is a globe, since we also have GPS measurements that are not influenced by Refraction or Perspective, but are of a pure geometric nature. GPS measurements directly provide the radius of the earth.

Only one conclusion remains:

The earth cannot be flat, but is a globe with a mean radius of 6371 km!

This thread “Horizon did not block duck from view” shows there is no way a flat surface can physically block an object sitting on that surface from view while viewed from above that surface.

Again…

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on April 15, 2023, 05:12:28 AM

This thread “Horizon did not block duck from view” shows there is no way a flat surface can physically block an object sitting on that surface from view while viewed from above that surface.

Again…

When the surface appears to be rising up in the distance, it is not physically rising at all, but that's what it looks like to us.

Physically true doesn't matter, sometimes, as in this case.

They are visually blocked out,

Quote from: turbonium2 on October 22, 2022, 06:39:51 AM

Your stupid duck isn't nearly far enough to work.

Noticed you ignored the flashlight that was visible at 360 steps



25” per step times 360 steps comes to an estimate of 750 feet.  Or 9000 inches.  With the light bulb about .5 inches off the track.   If you divide .5 inches height by 9000 inches length , you get a height to length ratio of 0.000055555555556.

Again.  For a 300 mile height for a flat earth sun, at 12,000 miles length maximum viewing distance.  300 miles divided by 12,000 miles equals 0.025.

For the flashlight viewed at 9,000 inches,  to get a ratio of 0.025 height to distance.  9,000 inches multiplied by 0.025 comes to the flashlight being a height of 225 inches above the track.  Or 18 feet above the track to keep the same scale as the flat earth scenario. 


My experiments give every advantage to perspective, and more so than the observed world. 

 Perspective never physically blocked an object from view. 

Perspective could not hide an object where the the object could not be brought back into sight with zoom.

 And perspective could not physically block a single light source from view.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on April 13, 2023, 02:14:46 PM

Unlike JackBlack, I concede that in your case, seeing is believing, and you simply can't see the curve.

Alternatively, you have seen the curve, on the horizontal plane, as slight as it is at 5 feet above sea level out to the horizon at sea, but your eyes are not powerful enough to perceive that curve.

That's because there is no curve.

Quote from: Smoke Machine

But, as demonstrated, you could perceive the the earth "curve down and away from your sight", if you stand on the shoreline and are patient enough to observe a large cargo ship or cuise ship travelling away towards the horizon, disappearing hull first.

They only disappear hull first because the light above counteracts the lesser light below back to our vision, omitting the lower part of the ship.

Nothing to do with a ship somehow tipping over some downward curvature, otherwise we would see the stern disappear last, not the mast.

Quote from: Smoke Machine

I'm not sure how your flat Earth wired brain would explain that as a flat Earth proof and not a globe Earth proof? That's a pretty solid globe Earth proof to me. Check mate, flat earther!

For you, it's simply a mere movement of a pawn. For me, It's a massive advancement of my queen to check your king with only one move left for you and that's to tip over your king, global earther.

Quote from: Smoke Machine

As a flat earther, how do you twist that globe Earth proof into a flat Earth proof?

Easy. There never was and never will be global Earth-proof.

They are visually blocked out, not physically blocked out, our vision is limiting what is actually there on the surface, past what we CAN see, with our eyes and instruments, which work as our eyes do, in essence.

Parallel objects appear to be converging in the distance, they are not PHYSICALLY converging, at all. But to our eyes, they look like they are converging.

It is how our eyes, that causes all these 'problems', in essence. Illusions, wjich our eyes 'create'

Except perspective, distance, and depth, are always drawn with straight lines, and flat surfaces

When the surface appears to be rising up in the distance, it is not physically rising at all, but that's what it looks like to us.

Physically true doesn't matter, sometimes, as in this case.

They are visually blocked out, not physically blocked out

A simple way to sum up perspective that you were talking about is that for an object below you, as it gets further away it appears higher.
This continues FOREVER!
It doesn't magically stop and reverse.

Perspective demands that the further away a point on a flat surface is (assuming it is below you) the higher it will appear.
It does not allow any magical horizon.
It CANNOT allow the near ground to block the view to an object above it.

If you wish to assert such delusional nonsense, then you will need to justify it, explaining how perspective magically does this.

Conversely, with a RE, perspective will still exist and make objects appear higher.
But eventually, curvature wins.

This is what allows a horizon to form, the curve.
No curve, no horizon.

Again, this is summed up quite nicely in this graph:


For a flat Earth, the ground keeps on rising at an ever decreasing rate, never stopping.
But for a RE, you have the competing effects of perspective trying to make the ground appear higher, and the curvature making the ground physically lower. At short distances perspective wins making the ground appear higher. At large distances curvature wins, making the ground appear lower.

Again, this is something any more can check just by looking at a basketball (or any other small ball) which is positioned below them. You can even stand on it.
Instead of appearing as a point as you need for your fantasy, it instead appears to rise up, before dropping back down.

The question is how high it will go.
And the math for that is incredibly simple, and already provided in this thread.
The angle of dip is given by arccos(r/(r+h)).
For a round Earth, with a radius of 6371 km, and an observer height of 2 m, that works out to be 0.05 degrees.

Once more, the RE works and your delusional garbage does not.

If you want to pretend this works on a FE, explain how perspective magically stops and reverse, making the ground no longer appear to rise to produce a horizon, and as extrapolated from objects beyond the horizon, instead magically makes it appear to get lower, including making objects beyond the horizon appear to sink, regardless of if they are above or below eye level.

The only way you'll ever understand this, would be if you can imagine being a microscopic speck, on a massive flat table, or floor.

With a floor, it must be completely flat, and at least 1/2 mile long, while we see and film it from a few inches above the floor.

As for your claim about 'curvature' 'winning out' over perspective, that's just nonsense.