Free will?

Quote from: ogeitla on September 02, 2008, 04:53:43 AM

Fate is  a stupid romantisist idea. Youy think there is fate for people to rape other people? Fate for a 4 year old to get hit by a bus? All those people 9/11 to who got wiped out? etc. If you believe in fate, then you sir are insane and must see a mental institute.
It's human nature to look for patterns in things, on tv where i live they did a mini experiment where they had a fish in a tank controlling a door by passing a sensor in it's tank. They put people in a room full of balls, paper and stuff and they had to figure out how to open the door using those items. By the end of the experiment they were saying it had something to do with the colour they draw and what they singing, when it fact they didn't work out that the door was opening randomly whenever the fish moved.
Hence thats why so many people believe in fate or karma and the idea that when a good thing happened it was coz life was bad before and god let me earn it eg. Like when someone gets a promotion they are like saying god really liked me and knew me life was shit so he helped me out or whatever, when actually it was because the guy worked well at work and earned it the promotion from that.
We have free will, good stuff sometimes happened, bad stuff sometimes happens. What happens to you = luck, and luck = random.

Never heard these phases?
Shit happens
Lifes a bitch, and then you die.

Oh, I don't think there's any doubting the impact of determinism here. After all, the chemistry of your brain is not particularly special, and there is no reason -- not in my estimation, at least -- to believe that it would behave any different, any less predictably, than any other physical phenomenon. That is to say, I don't see how you could choose to alter the future, except as a direct result of those chemical responses, which are predictable in and of themselves. The fact that you have a conscious sense of self and the ability to acknowledge your options and choose by conscience, does not change the fact that those atoms in your head had no choice but to move and react exactly as they did. Do you have a choice? Well, you can acknowledge choices, but the fact remains that you were going to react exactly as you did. Whether or not you feel that you were doing the choosing.

This. Sentience makes you aware of the chemical processes of your brain, and gives you the illusion that its they transcend beyond simple chemistry and physics. In reality, nothing is random, nothing is the product of choice, everything is just the next step in a series of chemical reactions. For example, if you were to duplicate the current universe precisely, with the exact same chemical composition, an infinite number of times, the history of each universe, from start to end, will be exactly the same as every other one.

This. Sentience makes you aware of the chemical processes of your brain, and gives you the illusion that its they transcend beyond simple chemistry and physics. In reality, nothing is random, nothing is the product of choice, everything is just the next step in a series of chemical reactions. For example, if you were to duplicate the current universe precisely, with the exact same chemical composition, an infinite number of times, the history of each universe, from start to end, will be exactly the same as every other one.

At least until you account for quantum uncertainties.

If there is no free will, does that mean there is no hope?

I personally believe in the chaos theory. The movement of every atom directly or indirectly affects the positions of every other atom, including the particles in our brains. depending on where those particles in our brain go depends what we do or think.

Can we choose to change the flow of particles or are we just there to watch the greatest chain-reaction ever to occur? I'm not sure. I suppose it's all about how we interpret the scene around us chooses our actions and thoughts.

we like to believe there is hope, but how do we know? we live in an illusion where we think we are masters of our own destinys but are we?  we as man believe we are in control of our world and can over come every thing around us.  I believe some day we maybe proven wrong, that we will be put in our place so to speak

If there is no free will, does that mean there is no hope?

Why shouldn't there be hope?

What I mean is, if there is no free will, then is there no control over what happens next?  If there is no control over what happens next, then how can there be hope? 

I have never considered the idea that we as humans may not have free will, because I was raised to believe we have it.  Now that I think about it, it is hard to wrap my brains around the concept. 

What I mean is, if there is no free will, then is there no control over what happens next?  If there is no control over what happens next, then how can there be hope? 

I have never considered the idea that we as humans may not have free will, because I was raised to believe we have it.  Now that I think about it, it is hard to wrap my brains around the concept. 

It is hard to, yes. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be hope. You've lived your entire life up until this moment believing there is hope; if you now accept the idea that we do not have free will, why should that change?

I don't know.. it makes it feel hopeless.  If I feel this way and there is no free will, then there is nothing I can do about it, lol.  It's the chemicals in my confused brain. 

I don't know.. it makes it feel hopeless.  If I feel this way and there is no free will, then there is nothing I can do about it, lol.  It's the chemicals in my confused brain. 

I felt that way for the longest time after I first came across the idea. And then suddenly I realised that dwelling on it was what made me feel like that, and not the possibility of having no free will itself. Since then, it hasn't really bothered me.

Don't worry, Cowgirl. Since we have free will, there's nothing to be sad about! Yay!

but if we dont have free will then we have no control over our emotions right?

I think I have to believe there is free will.  Otherwise, there is no point in fighting these terrible urges to do things that are harmful to myself. 

i would never do any thing to harm my self   though i  have thought of it a time or two, I keep telling my self there are still so many people to piss off still I cant end it, i would be doing them a favor

Oh, I'm not talking about suicide.  I'm talking about drugs, and other fun things like that.  Passive-aggressive suicide maybe. 

random drug test at work prevent that for me, and my daughter

I don't know.. it makes it feel hopeless.  If I feel this way and there is no free will, then there is nothing I can do about it, lol.  It's the chemicals in my confused brain. 

There is still hope.  We may not have control over the future, but we still have hope that things will turn out for the better.  If you are raised believing in this hope, it will help predetermine your future decisions for the better.  Get my drift?

I think you can't really answer this question without defining what is meant by free will.


I say this because in my opinion free will clearly exists, but at the same time, theoretically every choice I make could be predicted if you had enough knowledge leading up to the decision being made.  I think the confusion here is caused by the misunderstanding that being able to explain why somebody makes a choice (from a physics/chemistry/biology perspective) means that they weren't free to make that choice.

Are we free to make choices?  Absolutely!

Are there underlying reasons that we may not be conscious of that explain why we make those choices?  Absolutely!

Those two answers are not mutually exclusive.

It's like, if I offer you a choice of $100 or a slap in the face, we can be sure that at least 100.00% of people will choose the money (ie. less than 5 in 100,000), and we can easily explain why they chose the money over the slap in the face.  This doesn't mean that we forced them into choosing the money, or that they didn't have a choice.  It just shows that explaining why people make a particular choice doesn't remove the fact that they were free to make that choice.

what a little to deep of a thought for you? people dont like to think about some thing like this because it can neither be proved nor disproved

Thankfully, with a bit of mathematics and science this can be proven.

Hi Again

Humans do have free will but it's going exactly as the Almighty God accepted. God gave humans the free will to chose the right or the bad path, he showed him the two ways, he guided humans what is write what is wrong. So now Humans can choose whatever they want and Allah because he is the Just he already gave humans what he chose. Allah already knows what every human will chose, everything about him, what he will be eating, drinking...etc and according to this knowledge before the creation of human who wrote it in the fate, according to the decisions of the human. If Allah didn't give the humans the free will he could have changed their decisions the one who created them can change their ways of life but no god wrote whatever they are choosing. For example if I did bad thing and things that angers my god, because of Allah being just he wrote what I would be doing in the future without changing it, the same thing if I did a good thing, Allah wrongs not anyone even so much as the weight of an atom. In conclusion Humans do have free will and its going according to what is written in fate thanks to Allah's knowledge and just.

There is free will.

what would be the point of life if there was no free will?

There is free will.

what would be the point of life if there was no free will?

No point thats why god gave us the free will to pass through this trial called life Does man think that he is to be left alone without purpose!? in my religion my god (Allah) said this: "What ! Did you then think that WE had created you without purpose, and that you would not be brought back to US ?"

^_^

There is free will.

what would be the point of life if there was no free will?

So because you'd like to have free will, it must exist?

There is free will.

what would be the point of life if there was no free will?

That's not logical.  You're starting with the assumption that life has no point without free will, and that life does have a point, and from those two baseless assumptions, concluding that free will exists. 

Dogmatic rubbish

Without objective evidence that any of what you've said is true, your opinion is meaningless to the rest of us, as you can't give us any kind of convincing argument of the truth your statements.  It's just meaningless opinion.

Without objective evidence that any of what you've said is true, your opinion is meaningless to the rest of us, as you can't give us any kind of convincing argument of the truth your statements.  It's just meaningless opinion.

Just because your limited cannot grasp what I was saying it doesn't mean it's rubbish if your Atheist and you denied the existence god with all of his signs how I can give you evidence, if god's clear signs were not enough to prove you his existence it means one of two your mind can't grasp them or your denying them I pray you get cured from both diseases ^_^

Almighty God

It will be said to them, `Were not MY Signs recited unto you, and you treated them as lies?
They will say, `Our Lord, our ill fortune overwhelmed us, and we were an erring people. `Our Lord, take us out of this, then if we revert to disobedience, we shall, indeed, be wrongdoers.'
.ALLAH will say, `Away with you, despised therein, and speak not unto ME; . `There was a party of MY servants who said, `Our Lord, we believe; forgive us therefore our sins, and have mercy on us; for thou art the Best of those who show mercy;
But you ridiculed them so much so that ridicule of them caused you to forget MY remembrance while you continued to laugh at them; `I have rewarded them this day for their patient endurance; they are, indeed, the ones who have achieved bliss.

That's not logical.

We live we die and that's it, that's how you explain logic? my opinion might be meaningless to you or all of you however that logic of some are never meaningless to me for it clearly shows me how god favored me over many of his creations: "Praise To Allah"  ^_^

We live we die and that's it, that's how you explain logic?

Why is it logical to assume otherwise?

Quote from: Jack - Falling duck on September 08, 2008, 02:10:22 PM

There is free will.

what would be the point of life if there was no free will?

That's not logical.  You're starting with the assumption that life has no point without free will, and that life does have a point, and from those two baseless assumptions, concluding that free will exists. 

I think he's trying to say the same thing I was saying.. only not the same way I said it, lol.  Life seems pointless without free will, because you can't effect it.  If everything is determined and predictable then it seems hopeless.  I'm not saying it is hopeless, or pointless.. but to me it just seems that way.  What is the point of trying?  I am still trying to wrap my feeble brain around the concept.

I think he's trying to say the same thing I was saying.. only not the same way I said it, lol.  Life seems pointless without free will, because you can't effect it.  If everything is determined and predictable then it seems hopeless.  I'm not saying it is hopeless, or pointless.. but to me it just seems that way.  What is the point of trying?  I am still trying to wrap my feeble brain around the concept.

I know what you're saying, but the way that we would like the world to be does not influence the way that it is. Saying that life must have purpose because we want it to is like saying that I must be a millionaire because I'd like to be one. If you think that sounds illogical, then so does the argument of saying that life must have a purpose.

Oh, I'm not arguing that life has to have a purpose, beyond procreation.  Free will is more than a religious concept to me, but  I have a very hard time explaining it.   I guess I like to think that I'm making decisions and they are more.. bah! I don't know.  I will think about this some more.  Does anyone have any good links to read on the subject?