Columbus Was A Flatist

Do you want me to cite that he was a flatist, or that Johnson believed he was?

Do you want me to cite that he was a flatist, or that Johnson believed he was?

The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back

Quote from: John Davis on November 10, 2017, 10:08:46 AM

The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back

I feel like I must be mis-reading this somehow.  They believed they were on a globe...with an edge?

Quote from: John Davis on November 10, 2017, 10:23:19 AM

Do you want me to cite that he was a flatist, or that Johnson believed he was?

Proof there was a dispute.

Charles Johnson, former President of our society, knew that Moses, Washington, and Columbus were flatists. In 1980 he talks to this:

"There was a dispute on the ship, but it was because Columbus was a flat-earther... The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back. ... Columbus had to put them in irons and beat them until he convinced them they weren’t going over any curve, and they could return.”

Do any flatist's here agree with Johnson's view?

As early as the sixth century B.C., Pythagoras — and later Aristotle and Euclid — wrote about the Earth as a sphere. Ptolemy wrote “Geography” at the height of the Roman Empire, 1,300 years before Columbus sailed, and considered the idea of a round planet as fact.

“Geography” became a standard reference, and Columbus himself owned a copy. For him, the big question was not the shape of the Earth but the size of the ocean he wanted to cross.

Quote from: deadsirius on November 10, 2017, 11:12:57 AM

Quote from: John Davis on November 10, 2017, 10:08:46 AM

The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back

I feel like I must be mis-reading this somehow.  They believed they were on a globe...with an edge?

Yes, I believe the argument dates back to Thomas Aquinas (though since he believed in a globe, I'd have to dig up the argument). The idea is that if the earth is a globe, the water would run off the curve of a globe. Think about pouring water on top of a beach ball.

I have no idea what he was referencing exactly. However, its well known that there were mutinies on his ship.

http://blog.yalebooks.com/2013/05/07/mutiny-profiles-christopher-columbus/


"Three days after leaving port, crew on the Pinta, reluctant to keep sailing away from familiar territory, sabotaged its rudder. "

This seems to corroborate his story.

Charles Johnson, former President of our society, knew that Moses, Washington, and Columbus were flatists. In 1980 he talks to this:

"There was a dispute on the ship, but it was because Columbus was a flat-earther... The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back. ... Columbus had to put them in irons and beat them until he convinced them they weren’t going over any curve, and they could return.”

Do any flatist's here agree with Johnson's view?

• Hellenic world: Archimedes, etc.
  
• Hellenistic world: Eratosthenes (276 BC – 195 BC).
  
• Ancient India: Aryabhata (476–550)
  
• Islamic world: Iraqi Caliph al-Ma'mun (786-833), Persian Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973–1048)
  
• Early and Medieval Europe: English Venerable Bede (673–735), French John of Sacrobosco (c. 1195–c. 1256), French John Buridan (1301–1358) and French Nicholas Oresme (1320–1382).

BEHAIM, MARTIN
Martin Behaim (1459-1537) was a German mapmaker, navigator, and merchant. Behaim made the earliest globe, called the "Nürnberg Terrestrial Globe". It was made during the years 1490-1492; the painter Georg Glockendon helped in the project. Behaim had previously sailed to Portugal as a merchant (in 1480). He had advised King John II on matters concerning navigation. He accompanied the Portuguese explorer Diogo Cam (Cão) on a 1485-1486 voyage to the coast of West Africa; during this trip, the mouth of the Congo River was discovered.
After returning to Nürnberg in 1490, Behaim began construction of his globe (which was very inaccurate as compared to other maps from that time, even in the areas in which Behaim had sailed).

It was once thought that Behaim's might may have influenced Columbus and Magellan; this is now discounted. Behaim may have also developed an astrolabe. Behaim's globe is now in the German National Museum in Nürnberg.

From: Explorers from the 1400's - the Fifteenth Century

Charles Johnson, former President of our society, knew that Moses, Washington, and Columbus were flatists. In 1980 he talks to this:

"There was a dispute on the ship, but it was because Columbus was a flat-earther... The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back. ... Columbus had to put them in irons and beat them until he convinced them they weren’t going over any curve, and they could return.”

Do any flatist's here agree with Johnson's view?

The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back.

Quote from: John Davis on November 10, 2017, 10:08:46 AM

Charles Johnson, former President of our society, knew that Moses, Washington, and Columbus were flatists. In 1980 he talks to this:

"There was a dispute on the ship, but it was because Columbus was a flat-earther... The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back. ... Columbus had to put them in irons and beat them until he convinced them they weren’t going over any curve, and they could return.”

Do any flatist's here agree with Johnson's view?

Obviously I'm no flatularist, but that claim is totally illogical: Balls do not have edges.

But, by the time of Columbus the earth's being a Globe was totally entrenched in Western and probably even Middle Eastern society that the whole idea seems totally implausible.

If Charles Johnson really did claim that, it says more about his powers of logic, or the lack thereof, than the shape of the earth.
It's you modern neo-Flat Earthism Cult adherents that have tried to change things.

I think I'd believe these folk before anything Charles Johnson said!

• Hellenic world: Archimedes, etc.
  
• Hellenistic world: Eratosthenes (276 BC – 195 BC).
  
• Ancient India: Aryabhata (476–550)
  
• Islamic world: Iraqi Caliph al-Ma'mun (786-833), Persian Abu Rayhan al-Biruni (973–1048)
  
• Early and Medieval Europe: English Venerable Bede (673–735), French John of Sacrobosco (c. 1195–c. 1256), French John Buridan (1301–1358) and French Nicholas Oresme (1320–1382).

Or are they all too Big Science for you?

And the Globe seems to have been used as a navigation tool before Columbus

Quote

BEHAIM, MARTIN
Martin Behaim (1459-1537) was a German mapmaker, navigator, and merchant. Behaim made the earliest globe, called the "Nürnberg Terrestrial Globe". It was made during the years 1490-1492; the painter Georg Glockendon helped in the project. Behaim had previously sailed to Portugal as a merchant (in 1480). He had advised King John II on matters concerning navigation. He accompanied the Portuguese explorer Diogo Cam (Cão) on a 1485-1486 voyage to the coast of West Africa; during this trip, the mouth of the Congo River was discovered.
After returning to Nürnberg in 1490, Behaim began construction of his globe (which was very inaccurate as compared to other maps from that time, even in the areas in which Behaim had sailed).

It was once thought that Behaim's might may have influenced Columbus and Magellan; this is now discounted. Behaim may have also developed an astrolabe. Behaim's globe is now in the German National Museum in Nürnberg.

From: Explorers from the 1400's - the Fifteenth Century

Sure looks like the idea of a Globe was well entrenched well before Columbus and nobody seemed too worried about falling over the edge.

Sorry for the length, but I'm trying to catch up with Sandokhan .

Got any flatularist support yet?

Quote from: John Davis on November 10, 2017, 10:08:46 AM

Charles Johnson, former President of our society, knew that Moses, Washington, and Columbus were flatists. In 1980 he talks to this:

"There was a dispute on the ship, but it was because Columbus was a flat-earther... The others believed the Earth to be a ball, and they just knew that they were falling over the edge and couldn't get back. ... Columbus had to put them in irons and beat them until he convinced them they weren’t going over any curve, and they could return.”

Do any flatist's here agree with Johnson's view?

Ummm...  You do realize that the Columbus flat earth story is a myth, don't you?

Quote from: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/busting-a-myth-about-columbus-and-a-flat-earth/2011/10/10/gIQAXszQaL_blog.html

As early as the sixth century B.C., Pythagoras — and later Aristotle and Euclid — wrote about the Earth as a sphere. Ptolemy wrote “Geography” at the height of the Roman Empire, 1,300 years before Columbus sailed, and considered the idea of a round planet as fact.

“Geography” became a standard reference, and Columbus himself owned a copy. For him, the big question was not the shape of the Earth but the size of the ocean he wanted to cross.

Can anyone be so foolish as to believe that there are men whose feet are higher than their heads, or places where things may be hanging downwards, trees growing backwards, or rain falling upwards? Where is the marvel of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon if we are to allow of a hanging world at the Antipodes?

Quote from: John Davis on November 10, 2017, 01:04:37 PM

I have no idea what he was referencing exactly. However, its well known that there were mutinies on his ship.

http://blog.yalebooks.com/2013/05/07/mutiny-profiles-christopher-columbus/


"Three days after leaving port, crew on the Pinta, reluctant to keep sailing away from familiar territory, sabotaged its rudder. "

This seems to corroborate his story.

From your link:

Mutinies were so natural in the Age of Discovery that they could be reliably expected to occur in just about any bold seafaring enterprise. They were a normal part of taking risks together in organized but uncertain settings. Leaders and members abided by an authority structure, but proximity during an enterprise made for a certain sense of equality. All leaders directly experienced mutiny. Great leaders knew how to respond effectively to mutiny, often through means so artful as to transform it into success.

 Three days after leaving port, crew on the Pinta, reluctant to keep sailing away from familiar territory, sabotaged its rudder. Such bothersome matters as sabotage stemmed in part from the royal decree given to Columbus. It prohibited Portuguese from joining the enterprise and authorized exoneration of crimes for those Castilians who did join.

You need to choose your sources better if you want them to back up your stupid ideas.

Quote from: rabinoz on November 10, 2017, 02:08:37 PM

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Sorry for the length, but I'm trying to catch up with Sandokhan .

Got any flatularist support yet?

Give it up, rabinoz............You will never catch up with Sandokhan  !!!!

Quote from: Dinosaur Neil on November 10, 2017, 01:36:37 PM

You need to choose your sources better if you want them to back up your stupid ideas.

Yes, that was the intended citation. It doesn't seem like a far stretch that there was indeed a mutiny. In many textbooks at the time he talked of this, it was written that this mutiny was due to the idea of a flat earth scaring the sailors. Johnson here is turning that around and stating the opposite. And the facts agree - the general consensus was that the earth was round!

Washington Irving’s Columbus and the Flat Earth
For generations now American school children have learned that Christopher Columbus proved the earth was round. They have learned that the Church tried to prevent Columbus from sailing west to Asia, fearing that he and his seamen would sail off the edge of the earth or plunge into a chasm.
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The only problem, as any historian or historian of science will tell you: it’s a myth.

Like any beloved myth, the Columbus story mixes truths and truthiness, something that seems so natural and so obviously true but isn’t. Columbus did face opposition. He did persevere. He did sail west. He did find land (not Asia as he had predicted and continued to believe but the New World). But these truths have nothing to do with the shape of the earth—Columbus and all his detractors knew that the earth was round.
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The seeds of the Columbus myth seem to grow from Washington Irving’s biography of Columbus, A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828) (online here). Alexander Everett, Minister Plenipotentiary to Spain, had invited Irving to Madrid in the hopes that Irving would translate a recently published collection of documents on Columbus. When Irving got there and had a chance to read the collection, he decided

that a history, faithfully digested from these various materials, was a desideratum in literature, and would be a more acceptable work to my country, than the translation [he] had contemplated.

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Read the rest in: Washington Irving’s Columbus and the Flat Earth, by Darin Hayton