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Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.

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Edge_Loop

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Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« on: July 05, 2017, 05:15:12 AM »
Hi

I am a professional CG artist working in film and games production. I'm giving you that background to explain why I have access to and am proficient with 3D modeling and animation software.

If any of you are 3D hobbyists or professionals yourselves I would urge you to try this for yourselves:

- In Autodesk Maya (3D authoring software) I created a globe and a plane with the measurements for a globular and flat earth.

- I created a camera that stands at 6 feet tall at the center 'north pole' of both earths.

- I started testing the various claims from both sides.

Without fail all globe earth assertions regarding the curve of the earth where pretty much replicated.

Without fail all flat earth claims regarding the perceived lack of curvature and assertions that 'perspective' explains certain visual phenomena where shown to be unrepeatable.

By this I mean that in 3D I could get a globe to visually behave pretty much like what we perceive in the physical world simply using the measurements given by mainstream science.

I could NOT get a flat earth to reproduce what we see everyday, in particular the sun WOULD NOT set. At both 3000 miles and 700 miles high the sun never came close to setting no matter where I stood on the disk.

Again, I would urge others to try this for themselves. I can give links to free 1 month demo versions of the software I used.

I don't expect anyone to simply take my word for it, I don't care if people believe me or think I'm lying, so please don't bother trolling me. Just try for yourselves. It would take a couple of days to learn to use the software enough to set this up for yourselves, but surely that's worth it?
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Twerp

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2017, 05:19:23 AM »
That sounds interesting. I won't have time or I would try it.
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deadsirius

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2017, 05:36:31 AM »
I've been meaning to put together something like this in Blender for a while.  My skills are pretty basic so far, but it doesn't seem like too difficult a project.

For anyone interested--it's probably not on the same level as Maya (which I haven't used), but at least for an amateur hobbyist, Blender is close enough to professional-grade CG software, and can be had for the reasonably affordable price of $0.00.

EdgeLoop I'd be interested in seeing some of your RE vs. FE renders if you want to share
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Edge_Loop

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2017, 05:42:36 AM »
Yes, blender should work fine if it can handle the scales involved.

I don't have renders as I was just using the viewport to fly around, and I know if I post renders/images it will just end in a debate as to whether or not I cheated somehow.

Like I said, my statement is not intended as proof in itself, I'm simply offering a way that people can, without the need for exessive resources or time, at least see for themselves how these phenomena CAN be modeled.
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deadsirius

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2017, 05:50:21 AM »
Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 05:42:36 AM

I don't have renders as I was just using the viewport to fly around, and I know if I post renders/images it will just end in a debate as to whether or not I cheated somehow.


At least in this case when they claim it's "CGI" they'll be right for once...
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disputeone

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 05:53:13 AM »
Did did we just have a guy offer to prove the earth is a sphere with cgi?
Where's jroa when you need him...
Honestly.
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Twerp

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2017, 05:59:48 AM »
Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 05:15:12 AM
I don't expect anyone to simply take my word for it, I don't care if people believe me or think I'm lying, so please don't bother trolling me. Just try for yourselves.
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Edge_Loop

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2017, 06:03:41 AM »
No, you had someone say you can us 3D modeling software to view mathematical approximations of the physical phenomena.

It's not proof, but for many people it's visualising the scales we are dealing with that forms a barrier to them grasping the nature of the world, whether flat or spherical.

But by all means take some time and try it for yourself. Surely a tool that can give some more insight into such an important topic is worth a few days of your time?
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disputeone

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2017, 06:54:13 AM »
Quote from: Boots on July 05, 2017, 05:59:48 AM
Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 05:15:12 AM
I don't expect anyone to simply take my word for it, I don't care if people believe me or think I'm lying, so please don't bother trolling me. Just try for yourselves.

Surely you can appreciate the irony of trying to show the earth is a sphere literally with cgi right?

I have absolutely no doubt he's not lying, and my trolling attempt seemed to have snagged an older member instead of OP.

Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 05:15:12 AM
I could NOT get a flat earth to reproduce what we see everyday, in particular the sun WOULD NOT set. At both 3000 miles and 700 miles high the sun never came close to setting no matter where I stood on the disk.

Also, like I mean geometry is your friend, we don't need to make a physics model to show this.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 07:00:07 AM by disputeone »
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Edge_Loop

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2017, 07:21:39 AM »
the point being you can cheat CGI to show what you want, but it's in the hands of the user.

Sure, a flat earther OR a round earther could create a 3D scene to show what they want by animating certain parameters, which is why the point is not creating imagery to help you convince others. The point of this is it's a tool that allows you to visualize for yourself.

If you don't cheat the results will be simply based on perspective acting on the laws of geometry.
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Edge_Loop

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2017, 07:23:53 AM »
I see plenty of people simply drawing 2d images in an attempt to visualize this, using 3D simply allows you to constrain yourself to correct scales and fairly accurate perspective.
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Twerp

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2017, 08:06:54 AM »
Quote from: disputeone on July 05, 2017, 06:54:13 AM
Quote from: Boots on July 05, 2017, 05:59:48 AM
Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 05:15:12 AM
I don't expect anyone to simply take my word for it, I don't care if people believe me or think I'm lying, so please don't bother trolling me. Just try for yourselves.

Surely you can appreciate the irony of trying to show the earth is a sphere literally with cgi right?

I have absolutely no doubt he's not lying, and my trolling attempt seemed to have snagged an older member instead of OP.

LOL. OK.

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JackBlack

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 02:11:57 PM »
Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 07:21:39 AM
If you don't cheat the results will be simply based on perspective acting on the laws of geometry.
The issue is they claim those laws are wrong.

For example, with crap like this from robot ham:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm

Rather than having perspective result in a reduced angular diameter the further away something is, it can also magically make some things disappear before other things, resulting in objects close to the horizon disappearing first.
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Edge_Loop

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2017, 10:42:03 PM »
Well the point is you can use 3D software to fairly accurately match photographs of the real world, it's what 3D artists do all the time in film, so clearly for it to be able to consistently and reliably match reality the maths it uses must be pretty solid?

It's there to see. We have technology in common use that allows us to fairly easily set up all the complex parameters and represent them in a visual form.

I would say a reasonably capable person could learn to use the software enough to set up a test scene for themselves in 2-3 days.

However if people dont want to challenge their beliefs that's another matter.
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JackBlack

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2017, 12:50:13 AM »
Quote from: Edge_Loop on July 05, 2017, 10:42:03 PM
Well the point is you can use 3D software to fairly accurately match photographs of the real world, it's what 3D artists do all the time in film, so clearly for it to be able to consistently and reliably match reality the maths it uses must be pretty solid?
Yes, the math must match reality, but you can have the math match reality by using a false model.
This is because you can apply a transformation from reality to lots of different models and still have the math hold.

For example, they could model Earth as flat but have magic bending light to produce quite similar images.
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disputeone

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2017, 01:00:22 AM »
This is why flat earthers use things like bendy light and non euclidean space to account for observations.

Quote from: JackBlack on July 06, 2017, 12:50:13 AM
Yes, the math must match reality, but you can have the math match reality by using a false model.
This is because you can apply a transformation from reality to lots of different models and still have the math hold.

Great post.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 01:04:03 AM by disputeone »
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Edge_Loop

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Re: Testing FE and RE claims in professional 3D software.
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2017, 02:29:31 AM »
Again, this is not offered as proof, it's simply a tool for visualizing.

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is with that. People use the software to visualize construction and product design, constructions and designs that go on to work in the real world. This is no different, just LOTS bigger.

Like I said, it is a tool available to people that actually want to test their ideas.

If this forum is only about people flexing their debating skills then yes, I can see my post is out of place.
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