In the begining

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Drdevice

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In the begining
« on: February 13, 2010, 11:51:38 PM »
In the beginning the world was void and with out form. Then a bunch of dirt got together and exploded. Or so the last theory I read about the beginning of the universe said.

I'm a round earth believing, protestant christian who has read the gate-less gate and the zen koans, well versed in the mythologies of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Norse mythologies. I plan to read the Koran and some of the Veda texts if I can locate them.

I put all this forth to show that I start this topic with as neutral a ground as possible. I don't know what I hope to accomplish with this topic, nor do I plan to direct it in a particular direction. All I ask is for there to be no insults or name calling. Put forth your Ideas and let us see where they lead us.

In the beginning earth was void and without form. All religions agree to this point more or less.

According to the old testament,

the sky and the earth were created first, all the world was covered in ocean. Then came light, and night and day. Then god separated the sky from the oceans. The last step was gather the water so that dry land would appear.

According to the Egyptians,

In the beggining there was only water. They called this Nu or Nun. It was out of Nu that everything began. Then Ra emerged out of primeval chaos, he came out of a giant blue lotus flower that appeared on the surface of the water. Ra gave light to the universe. Ra created the air god Shu and his wife Tefnut the goddess of moisture. Shu and Tefnut gave birth to the sky goddess Nut and the earth god Geb, and so the physical universe was created.

Against Ra's orders Geb and Nut married. Ra was incensed and ordered Shu to seperate them, which he did. (shu (the air) holds Nut (the sky) up above Geb (the earth) out of Gebs reach) But Nut was already pregnant, although unable to give birth as Ra had decreed she could not give birth in any month of any year.

Thoth, the god of learning, desided to help her and gambling with the moon for extra light, was able to add five extra days to the 360-day calender. On those five days Nut gave birth to Osiris , Horus the elder, Seth, Isis, and Nephthys successively.

According to the Greeks,

In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.

Uranus and Gaia had many children together and eventually they had grandchildren. Some of their children become afraid of the power of their children. Kronus, in an effort to protect himself, swallowed his children when they were still infants. However, his wife Rhea hid their youngest child. She gave him a rock wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he swallowed, thinking it was his son.

Once the child, Zeus, had reached manhood his mother instructed him on how to trick his father to give up his brothers and sisters. Once this was accomplished the children fought a mighty war against their father. After much fighting the younger generation won. With Zeus as their leader, they began to furnish Gaia with life and Uranus with stars.

According to the Aztecs,


in the beginning of the world, there was nothing but darkness. On great god named Ometeotl watched over this darkness in complete solitude. However, one day, Ometeotl gave birth to four other gods. These gods created the world, filling it with giants.

The god named Tezcatlipoca the Jaguar made himself into the sun. He ruled the world. But then, the god Quetzalcoatl knocked Tezcatlipoca into the ocean with a club. Quetzalcoatl turned himself into the sun. He appointed himself ruler of the world and created people with which to populate the earth. Tezcatlipoca returned and knocked Quetzalcoatl out of the sky. A great wind tore across the world, destroying everything except for a few people, who were turned into monkey.

Next, the god Tlaloc became the sun. He repopulated the earth with another group of people. However, in an attempt to regain his throne, Quetzalcoatl sent a rain of fire down upon the earth, killing all of Tlaloc’s people except the few that became birds. Then, the goddess Chalchiuhtlicue became the sun. However, during this war between the gods Tezcatlipoca caused great floods to cover the earth. All of the people drowned except for those who turned into fish.

Due to Tezcatlipoca’s actions, the entire earth was covered with water, with no land in sight. Finally, Tezcatlopoca and Quetzalcoatl stopped their quarrel and lifted the waters off of the earth. Then, Quetzalcoatl went to the land of the dead where the bones of the people lay. He tricked the god of the underworld, Mictlantechutli, into letting him take back the bones of the people back into the world. Quetzalcoatl then dripped his own blood onto the bones. The bones transformed into living, breathing people, the Aztecs.

In order to show their gratitude towards Quetzalcoatl for giving them life, the Aztecs sacrificed people on special holidays.

According to the Vedic (the Hindu),

Who really knows, and who can swear,
How creation came, when or where!
Even gods came after creation’s day,
Who really knows, who can truly say
When and how did creation start?
Did He do it? Or did He not?
Only He, up there, knows, maybe;
Or perhaps, not even He.

This is not the complete view as they have many views, the reason for this is the following from the Rig Veda
“Truth is One; the sages call it by different names” (Rig Veda 1:164:46)
It means that every creation myth, or any myth for that matter, is part of the greater truth.

That is all I feel like posting at the moment.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:56:26 PM by Drdevice »

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Pongo

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 02:14:40 AM »
In the beginning the world was void and with out form. Then a bunch of dirt got together and exploded. Or so the last theory I read about the beginning of the universe said.

Exactly which theory about the beginning of the universe states that the world, while void and formless, was created first?  Also, a quick google search concludes that you are less well versed in mythology as you are apt at copy/pastes.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 03:38:25 AM »
I like a lot of Hinduism, it's a lot less dogmatic than other religions (Caste system notwithstanding)

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 12:46:00 PM »
Do you know how much to these mythologies there are? It was simpler just to copy past the basics. If the internet has it then why not use it? If you will notice I started to write the stuff out manually then just gave up and went looking for it because I was tired and wanted to go to bed. Now If we can refrain from this type of discussion I would be most appreciate or I could simply find a different forum.

For instance I didn't talk about the Titans in the greek mythology very much and how that Cronus was afraid that his offspring would come to defeat him and usurp his thrown like he did to his Father Uranus, this was based off a prophecy he heard. So in order to prevent this he ate all of his children. Being gods however this did not kill them, instead they grew up inside of Cronus's stomach. Then His wife Rhea tricked Cronus into swallowing a rock to save their youngest child Zeus.

When Zeus Grew he went to Cronus and tore open his stomach and freed his siblings. Then he went to free his Fathers Siblings and together they all over threw the Titans. Cronus had imprisoned his siblings because he was the youngest and if he wanted to rule all the universe he would have to remove every one who would come before him. After defeating the titans they where imprisoned under ground and the three sons of Cronus (Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus) Drew lots to decide who would take on what role in this new order. Zeus got the heavens and thus was made Lord of all the gods, Poseidon got the seas, and Hades the oldest got the Underworld.

I could go on but I have other things to do.

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 07:42:38 PM »
Ok continue, another thing all religions contain in common is the flood that occurred after the ice age ended. Two sources that come to mind are the religion that was the predecessor to Islamic, and the old testament. The bible talks of Noah and his arc. The other talks of a king who took three of every animal and brought them up into his castle.

What if every nation and culture on earth received a warning at the same time and saved all of the creatures of the world. It would explain why animals Noah could not get to, or even know about, survived.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 01:59:06 AM by Drdevice »

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Parsifal

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 07:44:46 PM »
In the beginning the world was void and with out form. Then a bunch of dirt got together and exploded. Or so the last theory I read about the beginning of the universe said.

I, like Pongo, would be interested to know which theory this refers to.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 01:52:09 AM »
It started out as a Civ 4 quote then went into a science quote. It was miss represented on my part. Really what I was trying to get across is that the world (universe) was empty and had no shape. Then a bunch of dirt got together and blew up. Can't remember where I saw it but it was funny (it may have been a joke dunno). For the most part the explanation for creation seems to have been know even to our ancestor even if it was exaggerated and turned into earth centric stories due to mans deep need for self grandeur.

What I would like to discus is mythology and points where it matches history and points where it does not and why that might be. Or where religions have very close similarity, with out the normal "drift" of cultures. Such as with the Romans and how they basically took the Greek gods and renamed them. Or how Buddhism is closely related to Hinduism because of their close borders each influenced the other.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 01:57:21 AM by Drdevice »

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Pongo

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 08:34:05 PM »
Ok continue, another thing all religions contain in common is the flood that occurred after the ice age ended.

...Are you suggesting that the recession of glaciers caused the entire world to flood?  Moreover, have you actually checked to see if all religions have a flood story before asserting that they do?  And even if that were true, what about religions newer than 10k years? 

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 09:44:58 PM »
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Yes I am claiming that glacier melt caused the waters to rise and since most people of the time lived near lakes, oceans, river and the like they where flooded out.

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Pongo

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 12:53:20 AM »
Sooooooo, all the glaciers melted in like a day?  A few days time perhaps?

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 12:31:17 PM »
Do you understand how mythology's are formed or what the world was like when the glaciers melted? Mythologies tend to be spread around by word of mouth and are kept alive as tribal knowledge. It is part of the reason some of the events in the bible are strange, its that it was one person writing down the verbal history from some one else often hundreds of years after the event actual occurred.

The glaciers melted at the rate (or close to) the rate science believes they did. But to the generation after they had melted and the one following that and so on the time got shorter and shorter. A primitive form of the fishing story if you will. These get bogged down with the personal beliefs and religions of the people that they soon become one and the same.

Ah I see what you are saying. No, the people would not have drowned from the flood (though some groups did, like some tribes here in Washington) It was still a quick melt compared to what the people where used to. It would have destroyed all the farm lands and settlements that people had (which where near water) and many people would have starved to death or died of diseases due to unclean conditions out side of there home lands.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 12:36:01 PM by Drdevice »

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Sadistic

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 05:07:52 PM »
Ah the flood story, the golden nugget of retards.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 06:30:20 PM »
I want to talk about religions not cross examine religion in general. Religion, true or false, is the core of why many people do what they do. Why countries follow tyrants despite seeing the evil things he does. Why people go to war, why people die off, why they leave their home lands, etc.

I also want to talk about the sources of certain beliefs. The source makes them no less important to a religion as the source could easily have been caused by their deity.

Such an example is the caves underneath Greece, they match perfectly with what their idea of the underworld was. While we know now that no evil or dead souls (as far as we know) lay there, it doesn't mean that Hades realm does not exist, just that the description matches the caves.

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Pongo

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 12:43:31 AM »
The point I was trying to make was that the ice would have melted so slow that no one would have noticed. Everyone on the planet has been experencing the most rapid decay of ice the world has ever known. You're trying to find facts to support something that is completly untrue. The reason that most cultures have flood myths is the same reason that flood damage isn't covered in home-owners insurance. Flooding is fairly common and causes more damage than any other natural dissaster.  In modern times earthquakes may be worse when looked at on an individual scale, but the tipping over of a hut (if even possible from an earthquake) is far far less devistating than flash floods.

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 09:09:21 AM »
Then why are there tribes here in Washington that are beneath the water of the sound? You would think that if they had a lot of warning these tribes would have moved out of the way.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 09:29:54 AM »
Then why are there tribes here in Washington that are beneath the water of the sound? You would think that if they had a lot of warning these tribes would have moved out of the way.

Mermaids have more right to their lands than you do.

Racist...

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Drdevice

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Pongo

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 03:51:03 AM »
Then why are there tribes here in Washington that are beneath the water of the sound? You would think that if they had a lot of warning these tribes would have moved out of the way.

Are you saying that someone found the remains of Native American tribes under water?  If so, how do you know they were flooded in haste?  If they were flooded quickly, how do you know it was a global flood that caused it?  Look at the literal mountains of geological evidence that disproves a biblical flood. 

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babsinva

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 08:06:27 PM »
...Are you suggesting that the recession of glaciers caused the entire world to flood?  Moreover, have you actually checked to see if all religions have a flood story before asserting that they do?  And even if that were true, what about religions newer than 10k years? 

Ah the flood story, the golden nugget of retards.

Are you saying that someone found the remains of Native American tribes under water?  If so, how do you know they were flooded in haste?  If they were flooded quickly, how do you know it was a global flood that caused it?  Look at the literal mountains of geological evidence that disproves a biblical flood.

I can not speak for Dr. Device, but as for me my comments on this flood story were discussed recently in the thread "Random Religious and Philosophical" here in R&P.  Mykael, myself, Eire Engineer and It's a Sphere were discussing the global flood, Noah and the Ark, and what other religions believe.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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Drdevice

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 10:20:26 PM »
Ah cool, thank u I will check that out and do further posts there.

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babsinva

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 11:14:51 PM »
SOME OF YOU do not listen.  He said he was starting on neutral ground, and he also said he didn't know what he wanted to accomplish so put out ideas and see where it goes.  Later he kindly described that he would like to discuss mythologies and where it matches history and where it does not.  He was not authoritative, nor was he pushing his religion on you people; it was simply to engage in discussion.  If you don't want to discuss then don't discuss, but don't just attack him with nasty comments.  If you have nothing to add of value because you are not knowledgeable on the subject - then fine, but don't crucify someone who is being gentle and more than willing to entertain many ideas.  That is SO FES.


I put all this forth to show that I start this topic with as neutral a ground as possible. I don't know what I hope to accomplish with this topic, nor do I plan to direct it in a particular direction. All I ask is for there to be no insults or name calling. Put forth your Ideas and let us see where they lead us.

What I would like to discus is mythology and points where it matches history and points where it does not and why that might be. Or where religions have very close similarity, with out the normal "drift" of cultures.

Do you understand how mythology's are formed or what the world was like when the glaciers melted? Mythologies tend to be spread around by word of mouth and are kept alive as tribal knowledge. It is part of the reason some of the events in the bible are strange, its that it was one person writing down the verbal history from some one else often hundreds of years after the event actual occurred.

I also want to talk about the sources of certain beliefs. The source makes them no less important to a religion as the source could easily have been caused by their deity.

Such an example is the caves underneath Greece, they match perfectly with what their idea of the underworld was. While we know now that no evil or dead souls (as far as we know) lay there, it doesn't mean that Hades realm does not exist, just that the description matches the caves.

Flood discussed in last (previous) post.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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babsinva

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Re: In the begining
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2010, 08:05:56 PM »
According to the Egyptians,

In the beggining there was only water. They called this Nu or Nun. It was out of Nu that everything began. Then Ra emerged out of primeval chaos, he came out of a giant blue lotus flower that appeared on the surface of the water. Ra gave light to the universe. Ra created the air god Shu and his wife Tefnut the goddess of moisture. Shu and Tefnut gave birth to the sky goddess Nut and the earth god Geb, and so the physical universe was created.

Against Ra's orders Geb and Nut married. Ra was incensed and ordered Shu to seperate them, which he did. (shu (the air) holds Nut (the sky) up above Geb (the earth) out of Gebs reach) But Nut was already pregnant, although unable to give birth as Ra had decreed she could not give birth in any month of any year.

Thoth, the god of learning, desided to help her and gambling with the moon for extra light, was able to add five extra days to the 360-day calender. On those five days Nut gave birth to Osiris , Horus the elder, Seth, Isis, and Nephthys successively.

You mentioned 4, i.e. Egyptians, Greeks, Aztecs, & 1 other and I will respond to Egyptians.
As far as each having their stories as to "in the beginning," that is true, but there are a few corrections and some additions.

The lack of unity of belief ran rampant with the Egyptians, since they had regional differences that continued through out their history and resulted in a maze of legends and myths, often contradictory.  The god Ra you mentioned, was actually known under 75 different names and forms.  Only a few of the Egyptian deities (out of hundreds) seemed to receive worship on a national basis. 

Most popular among these (on national basis), was the trinity or triad of Osiris, with Isis (his wife) and Horus (his son).  It is important to note that many triads often did not put the father as the chief, but in actuality was considered as having the role of prince consort, and the female (mother) remained the goddess.  (New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, 1968, p 10)  Then there was also the "cosmic" gods headed by Ra, the sun-god, and including gods of the moon, sky, air, earth, the river Nile, and so forth.  At Thebes the god Amon was most prominent and in time was accorded the title "king of the gods" under the name Amon Ra. (Jeremiah 46:25) 

Additionally not all Egyptian gods were supposed to have been creators from the PAST, for Egyptians also worshipped animals, and in some cases the god was considered to be actually incarnate in the body of the animal as in the case of Apis bulls.  Also they had LIVING gods, for Pharoah was believed to be a god himself, the son of the god Ra.  And there was a statue symbolizing Amon's protection (Amon Ra's protection) of Pharoah. (statue was a Ram - statue found and pictures exist)

Because as I said earlier their was lack of unity of belief and regional differences, there WAS a local deity in every city or town, bearing the title "Lord of the City."  A list found in the tomb of Thutmose III contains the names of some 740 gods.

Lastly much of the understanding of the nature of Egyptian gods and practices is based on data provided by Greek writers such as Herodotus and Plutarch.  Also there are numerous correspondencies (not writings) between the principal gods of Egypt, and those of Babylon, the evidence favoring Babylon as the source, and Egypt as the receiver or perpetuator.  Additionally there is Babylonian influence on Greek gods too.  One ancient Greek fable is nearly a literal translation of an Akkadian original.  So I would suggest some reading on Babylonian gods as well to better understand the correlation.

I've cited a few places, and the ones I did not cite can be easily found, but I am tired of looking things up today.     
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."