1

Flat Earth Debate / Lunar Parallax Experiment

« on: March 17, 2010, 12:33:42 PM »

I will be testing Lunar parallax to determine its distance from the earth to prove that it is further than 3,000 miles away.

Me and my brother are both located in the USA I am in Washington, He is in Ohio.

Here is a list of moon rise and set times for Fremont, Ohio

            o  ,    o  ,                                    FREMONT, OHIO                             Astronomical Applications Dept.
Location: W083 07, N41 21                         Rise and Set for the Moon for 2010                  U. S. Naval Observatory   (guess that makes me part of the conspiracy)
                                                         Eastern Standard Time                                                       
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                       
          Jan.          Feb.          Mar.          Apr.          May           June          July          Aug.          Sept.         Oct.         Nov.         Dec. 
Day Rise   Set   Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set
      h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m    h m  h m    h m  h m    h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m   h m    h m  h m
01  1833 0843  2117 0851  2004 0715  2233 0717  2316 0726  2338 0915  2252 1004  2230 1154  2307 1355         1423  0136 1438  0302 1407
02  1953 0923  2231 0918  2120 0744  2339 0758         0824          1016  2313 1103  2300 1256         1452  0010 1503  0249 1507  0415 1440
03  2111 0956  2344 0946  2234 0813         0845  0002 0924  0003 1116  2336 1202  2337 1401  0006 1544  0123 1538  0403 1536  0528 1519
04  2226 1025         1015  2345 0846  0037 0939  0039 1026  0026 1215         1303          1505  0114 1629  0238 1609  0519 1608  0639 1605
05  2338 1051  0054 1048         0923  0126 1037  0111 1127  0048 1314  0001 1406  0023 1608  0228 1708  0354 1639  0634 1645  0744 1658
06         1117  0202 1125  0053 1005  0208 1137  0138 1228  0110 1415  0029 1511  0118 1705  0345 1742  0511 1709  0749 1728  0842 1758
07  0048 1144  0305 1209  0154 1054  0242 1238  0202 1327  0134 1517  0103 1618  0224 1756  0504 1813  0628 1740  0859 1818  0930 1901
08  0157 1213  0402 1259  0247 1148  0311 1339  0224 1427  0200 1622  0144 1723  0337 1838  0622 1843  0745 1815  1001 1914  1011 2005
09  0305 1247  0452 1354  0333 1246  0336 1439  0246 1527  0232 1730  0235 1825  0455 1915  0740 1913  0901 1854  1055 2015  1044 2108
10  0411 1326  0534 1453  0410 1347  0359 1539  0309 1629  0309 1837  0337 1920  0615 1947  0857 1945  1013 1939  1139 2118  1112 2209
11  0512 1411  0610 1554  0442 1447  0422 1639  0334 1734  0356 1942  0449 2007  0733 2017  1012 2021  1119 2031  1215 2221  1138 2309
12  0607 1503  0640 1655  0509 1548  0444 1740  0402 1840  0452 2041  0605 2046  0850 2046  1125 2102  1216 2129  1245 2322  1201     
13  0654 1600  0706 1756  0534 1648  0507 1843  0436 1948  0559 2131  0723 2119  1005 2115  1233 2149  1304 2230  1312         1223 0008
14  0734 1701  0729 1856  0556 1748  0533 1948  0517 2054  0712 2213  0841 2149  1120 2147  1334 2241  1344 2331  1336 0022  1246 0107
15  0808 1802  0751 1956  0618 1848  0603 2054  0607 2156  0827 2248  0956 2217  1232 2224  1426 2339  1417         1358  0121  1311 0206
16  0836 1903  0812 2056  0640 1950  0638 2201  0707 2250  0943 2319  1110 2245  1341 2305  1509         1445  0033  1421 0220  1339 0307
17  0901 2003  0834 2157  0703 2053  0721 2305  0814 2336  1057 2347  1222 2314  1445 2353  1546 0039  1510 0133  1445 0319  1411 0409
18  0923 2103  0858 2301  0730 2158  0813         0926          1209         1333 2346  1541         1616  0140  1533 0233  1511 0420  1450 0513
19  0945 2202  0925         0800 2304  0915 0003  1040 0014  1321 0014  1443          1629 0047  1643 0241  1556 0331  1540 0522  1537 0616
20  1006 2303  0957 0006  0837         1023 0054  1154 0047  1431 0041  1550 0023  1710 0145  1707 0341  1618 0430  1616 0626  1634 0717
21  1028         1036 0112  0922 0009  1135 0137  1306 0116  1542 0111  1651 0106  1744 0246  1729 0440  1643 0530  1658 0729  1738 0811
22  1053 0005  1125 0218  1017 0111  1249 0213  1418 0143  1651 0144  1745 0156  1813 0347  1752 0539  1710 0631  1748 0831  1849 0858
23  1122 0110  1225 0320  1121 0208  1403 0244  1529 0210  1757 0223  1831 0251  1839 0448  1814 0639  1741 0734  1847 0928  2002 0939
24  1158 0217  1334 0415  1232 0256  1516 0313  1641 0238  1856 0309  1909 0351  1902 0548  1839 0739  1818 0837  1953 1019  2116 1013
25  1242 0326  1450 0503  1347 0338  1630 0340  1753 0309  1949 0401  1942 0453  1924 0647  1907 0840  1902 0940  2103 1102  2229 1044
26  1337 0433  1609 0543  1503 0413  1744 0408  1902 0345  2032 0459  2009 0555  1946 0746  1939 0942  1954 1039  2214 1139  2341 1113
27  1444 0535  1729 0617  1620 0444  1858 0438  2007 0426  2109 0600  2034 0655  2009 0845  2017 1045  2054 1134  2326 1211         1141
28  1600 0629  1847 0647  1736 0513  2010 0511  2105 0515  2140 0702  2056 0755  2034 0945  2103 1147  2201 1221         1241   0052 1210
29  1721 0713                  1852 0541  2119 0550  2155 0611  2206 0804  2118 0854  2103 1047  2158 1245  2311 1302  0038 1309  0204 1241
30  1842 0751                  2007 0610  2222 0635  2236 0710  2230 0905  2140 0953  2136 1150  2300 1337          1337  0149 1337  0316 1317
31  2001 0822                  2121 0641                  2310 0812                  2204 1053  2217 1253                 0023 1409                   0426 1359

                                             Add one hour for daylight time, if and when in use.

Which is 3 hours ahead of my home here in Everett, Washington

             o  ,    o  ,                                 EVERETT, WASHINGTON                          Astronomical Applications Dept.
Location: W122 13, N47 58                         Rise and Set for the Moon for 2010                   U. S. Naval Observatory       
                                                                                                       Washington, DC  20392-5420     
                                                         Pacific Standard Time                                                       
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                     
          Jan.          Feb.          Mar.          Apr.          May           June          July          Aug.         Sept.        Oct.           Nov.          Dec. 
Day Rise  Set     Rise  Set   Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set   Rise  Set     Rise  Set    Rise  Set    Rise  Set
      h m  h m     h m  h m    h m  h m    h m  h m    h m  h m    h m  h m    h m  h m    h m  h m    h m  h m     h m  h m    h m   h m   h m   h m
01  1757 0847  2104 0831  1954 0653  2242 0635  2326 0640  2332 0840  2232 0943  2154 1151  2221 1406  2332 1427  0114 1420  0256 1334
02  1924 0919  2224 0852  2116 0715  2350 0712         0739  2352 0946  2249 1047  2220 1259  2322 1503          1501  0234 1443  0415 1403
03  2048 0946  2343 0914  2236 0739         0758  0008 0843         1051  2307 1151  2253 1408          1551  0051 1530  0354 1507  0533 1438
04  2209 1008         0938  2353 0806  0048 0852  0041 0949  0010 1155  2327 1257  2337 1516  0033 1631  0213 1555  0516 1534  0648 1521
05  2327 1029  0059 1006         0839  0135 0952  0107 1055  0027 1300  2351 1405         1619  0153 1704  0335 1619  0637 1606  0755 1613
06         1049  0211 1040  0104 0918  0213 1057  0129 1200  0044 1406          1516  0032 1715  0317 1732  0458 1643  0756 1645  0851 1714
07  0043 1110  0317 1121  0206 1006  0242 1202  0148 1305  0103 1514  0021 1627  0141 1801  0442 1756  0622 1708  0909 1732  0936 1820
08  0158 1135  0415 1211  0258 1102  0306 1308  0206 1409  0125 1624  0059 1735  0300 1837  0606 1820  0745 1738  1012 1829  1012 1929
09  0311 1204  0503 1308  0340 1203  0326 1413  0223 1515  0152 1737  0149 1836  0424 1907  0731 1844  0907 1812  1102 1932  1040 2036
10  0421 1239  0541 1411  0414 1307  0344 1518  0241 1622  0226 1848  0253 1928  0550 1933  0854 1910  1023 1855  1142 2039  1103 2143
11  0524 1323  0612 1517  0440 1413  0401 1623  0301 1732  0310 1954  0408 2009  0714 1956  1015 1941  1130 1946  1214 2146  1123 2247
12  0619 1416  0636 1623  0502 1519  0419 1730  0325 1844  0407 2051  0531 2041  0838 2019  1133 2018  1226 2044  1239 2253  1142 2351
13  0703 1515  0657 1728  0521 1624  0437 1838  0354 1957  0516 2136  0655 2108  0959 2043  1244 2103  1311 2148  1301 2357  1200     
14  0739 1620  0715 1833  0539 1729  0458 1949  0432 2106  0634 2212  0818 2132  1120 2110  1345 2155  1346 2254  1320         1218 0054
15  0808 1726  0732 1938  0556 1835  0523 2100  0521 2207  0755 2241  0940 2154  1237 2142  1435 2255  1414         1338 0101  1238 0159
16  0831 1832  0748 2044  0613 1942  0555 2211  0622 2258  0917 2305  1100 2216  1350 2220  1514 2359  1437 0000  1356 0205  1302 0305
17  0850 1937  0805 2151  0632 2050  0636 2317  0733 2339  1037 2327  1218 2240  1456 2306  1546         1457 0105  1415 0309  1331 0412
18  0908 2042  0825 2300  0653 2201  0727         0850          1155 2349  1335 2307  1552         1612 0104  1515 0209  1437 0414  1406 0520
19  0924 2147  0847         0720 2312  0830 0014  1010 0011  1312          1450 2340  1637 0001  1633 0210  1533 0313  1502 0522  1452 0626
20  0941 2253  0915 0010  0753         0942 0101  1129 0038  1429 0010  1600          1714 0102  1652 0315  1552 0417  1534 0630  1549 0727
21  0958         0951 0122  0836 0020  1100 0138  1248 0100  1545 0035  1702 0020  1743 0206  1710 0419  1611 0522  1613 0738  1657 0819
22  1018 0001  1038 0230  0930 0124  1220 0208  1405 0122  1659 0104  1755 0109  1807 0312  1728 0523  1634 0628  1703 0841  1812 0901
23  1043 0111  1139 0332  1037 0218  1340 0233  1523 0143  1807 0139  1838 0206  1827 0418  1746 0627  1701 0736  1804 0937  1931 0936
24  1114 0224  1252 0425  1153 0302  1500 0256  1641 0206  1908 0222  1912 0309  1846 0523  1806 0732  1735 0844  1913 1025  2051 1005
25  1155 0337  1414 0507  1314 0338  1620 0317  1758 0232  1958 0314  1939 0415  1903 0627  1829 0838  1817 0949  2028 1103  2209 1030
26  1250 0447  1540 0540  1437 0406  1740 0339  1911 0303  2038 0414  2002 0521  1920 0731  1858 0946  1909 1050  2145 1134  2327 1053
27  1400 0547  1706 0607  1600 0431  1900 0404  2019 0341  2109 0519  2021 0627  1939 0835  1933 1053  2012 1142  2303 1201         1115
28  1521 0636  1831 0631  1722 0453  2017 0432  2116 0429  2135 0626  2039 0732  1959 0941  2018 1157  2122 1226         1225  0045 1139
29  1648 0714                  1845 0515  2130 0506  2203 0525  2156 0733  2056 0836  2024 1047  2113 1255  2237 1301  0020 1247  0202 1205
30  1816 0744                  2006 0538  2234 0549  2239 0627  2215 0838  2113 0940  2054 1155  2219 1345  2355 1331  0138 1310  0319 1237
31  1941 0809                  2126 0604                  2308 0733                  2132 1045  2132 1302                         1357                  0433 1316

                                             Add one hour for daylight time, if and when in use.


NOTE: BLANK SPACES IN THE TABLE INDICATE THAT A RISING OR A SETTING DID NOT OCCUR DURING THAT 24 HR INTERVAL.

Parameters of Experiment:

Me and my brother will meet up with each other over spring break. I will give him the same equipment that I will be using. Then on three (more if necessary or requested) nights or days (depending when the moon is visible) We will measure the most eastward side of the moon and how far it is from the western horizon. If that is not visible then we will measure the top most "point" on the sliver that is visible.



This is the equation we will be using to figure out parallax and how far away the moon is from each observer. Where H is how far away the moon is from the "flat earth" and X is how far apart we are from each other.

Comments?

2

Flat Earth Q&A / Non-sky mirror FE

« on: March 02, 2010, 07:31:33 PM »

Lord Wilmore you have made comments before that you do not prescribe to the "disk" flat earth.

How, in your model, does the north and South Pole sun cycle work?

3

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Is this my boat?

« on: March 01, 2010, 07:00:15 PM »

Let us say that I sailed across a lake in a wooden boat. Now this boat remains in dry dock from now untill the end of the earth. Every year I replace one of the boards with a new one, after replacing the board I add it to another boat thats just made out of the old wood.

Now here is the question, does replacing a board make the first boat not the one I sailed across the lake in? At what point would it stop being the boat I sailed across the lake in? And what is the other boat once all the pieces have been switched out?

4

Flat Earth General / Re: New Flat Earth Society

« on: February 14, 2010, 01:21:56 PM »

The New Flat Earth Society
The Exponential Function
January 28, 2002
Albert A. Bartlett

http://www.mnforsustain.org/bartlett_a_malthus_flat_earth_society.htm

Introduction: The Problem

There was a time, long ago, when people thought that the Earth was flat, but now for several centuries people have believed that the Earth is round . . . like a sphere. But there are problems with a spherical earth, and a now a new paradigm is emerging which seems to be a return to the wisdom of the ancients.

A sphere is bounded and hence is finite, which implies that there are limits, and in particular, there are limits to growth of things that consume the Earth and that live on it. Today, many people believe that the resources of the Earth and of the human intellect are so enormous that population growth can continue and that there is no danger that we will ever run out of anything. For instance, after a United Nations report predicted shortages of natural resources that would follow because of continued population growth, Jack Kemp, who was then Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in the Cabinet of President George Bush, is reported to have said, "Nonsense, people are not a drain on the resources of the planet." (2)

These people believe that perpetual growth is desirable, consequently it must be possible, and so it can?t possibly be a problem. At the same time there are still a few remaining "spherical earth" people who go around talking about "limits" and in particular about the limits that are implied by the term "carrying capacity." But limits are awkward, because limits conflict with the concept of perpetual growth, so there is a growing move to do away with the concept of limits. A friend recently returned from an international conference in Germany and he reports that whenever he brought up the subject of limits, the angry rebuttal was, "We?re tired of hearing of limits to growth! We?re going to grow the limits!" Another friend sent me a clipping (3) in which an eminent national economist closes an opinion piece by saying:

"A 3% to 3.5% growth rate is not only an achievable national objective: it is an economic and social necessity."

A spherical earth is finite. The pro-growth people say that perpetual growth on this earth is possible. If the pro-growth people are correct, what kind of an earth are we living on?


The Solution

A spherical earth is finite and hence is forever unappealing to the devotees of perpetual growth. In contrast, a flat earth can accommodate growth forever, because a flat earth can be infinite in the two horizontal dimensions and also in the vertical downward direction. The infinite horizontal dimensions forever remove any fear of crowding as population grows, and the infinite downward dimension assures humans of an unlimited supply of all of the mineral raw materials that will be needed by a human population that continues to grow forever. The flat earth removes all the need for worry about limits.

So, let us think of the "We?re going to grow the limits!" people as the "New Flat Earth Society."


Example

The economist Julian Simon is famous for his belief that there are no limits to growth. (4) In a recent article he wrote (5)

Technology exists now to produce in virtually inexhaustible quantities just about all the products made by nature - foodstuffs, oil, even pearls and diamonds . . . We have in our hands now - actually in our libraries - the technology to feed, clothe and supply energy to an ever-growing population for the next 7 billion years . . . Even if no new knowledge were ever gained . . . we would be able to go on increasing our population forever . . . (6)

Two friends wrote me to call my attention to this article, and one of them said in his letter that Simon had been contacted and that Simon said that the "7 billion years" was an error and it should have been "7 million years." (7)

We should note two things. First, there is a big difference between "million" and "billion." In the U.S. a "billion" is a thousand million. Second, even 7 million years is a long period of time.

One of these friends asked me: if the world population in 1995 is 5.7 billion people (5.7 x 109), what would its size be (P7) if it grew steadily at 1% per year for 7 million years? (


Arithmetic

Although arithmetic is falling out of fashion, let?s do some calculations so that we can understand how the old fashioned "spherical earth" scientists would treat the problem.

We will do this calculation assuming the length of time is exactly 7 million years and the growth rate is exactly 1% per year. For the case of an annual growth rate of 1%, the value of k is 0.010 . . . per year. It is easy enough to set up the equation for P7, which is the world population after 7 million years of 1% annual growth:

1) P7 = (5.7 x 109) exp(0.01 x 7 x l06) = (5.7 x l09) exp(7 x 104)

Here is where we separate out those who understand algebra from those who only know how to do key strokes on a calculator. When you do the keystrokes to evaluate exp(7 x 104) many calculators will flash the message "ERROR" because these calculators are not able to handle numbers larger than 9.99... x 1099. (9) One must have some understanding of algebra to work around this limitation.

What we want to find is the value of B in Eq.2.

2) exp(7 x 104) = 10B

If we take the natural logarithm of both sides we have

7 x 104 = B ln(10)

B = 7 x 104 / 2.303 . . .

3) B = 30400.6137 . . .

(Remember that we assumed the input numbers were exact.) Equation 1 now becomes

P7 = 5.7 x 109 x 1030400.6137 . . .

4) = 5.7 x 1030409.6137 . . .

If one wants to express this as an integer power of ten, we can note that 100.6137 = 4.11, so that

P7 = 5.7 x 4.11 x 1030409

5) P7 = 2.3 x 1030410

This is a fairly large number!

If we had used Simon?s original number of 7 billion years, we would have had B = 3.04 x 107.

It is hard to imagine the meaning of a number as large as the one given in Eq.5. To try to understand the meaning of this large number, let us compare it with an estimate the number of atoms in the known universe. If we assume the known universe is a sphere whose radius is 20 billion light years, the volume of the sphere is about 3 x 1085 cubic centimeters. If the average density of the universe is one atom per cubic centimeter, then the number of atoms estimated to be in the known universe is about 3 x 1085. The number given in Eq.5 is something like 30 kilo-orders of magnitude larger than the number of atoms estimated to be in the known universe!

Note that in making this calculation we are assuming that the universe, like the Earth, is spherical, which could hardly be correct if the Earth is flat and is of infinite lateral extent.

A related question comes to mind: if world population growth continues at a rate of 1% per year, (k = 0.01 per year) how long would it take for the population to grow until the number of people was equal to this estimate of the number of atoms in the known universe? This calls for us to find t in the following equation.

6) 3 x 1085 = 5.7 x 109 exp(0.01 t)

5.26 x 1075 = exp(0.01 t)

174 = .01 t

t = 17 thousand years

This indicates that the population of the Earth, growing at 1% per year, would grow to a number equal to the number of atoms estimated to be in the known universe, in a period of time something like the period since a recent ice age.

We could also ask, what growth rate would be required for the world population to grow from 5.7 x 109 to 3 x 1085 in 7 million years? We must find the value of k in this equation

7) 3 x 1085 = 5.7 x 109 exp(7 x 106 k)

Solving this, we find k = 2.5 x 10-5 per year. This is 2.5 x 10-3 percent per year. In the first year this growth rate would produce an increase of world population of about 1.42 x 105 people. Contrast this with the present increase of about 9 x 107 per year.

These numbers make it clear to us old fashioned "spherical earth people" that the world population cannot continue to grow for long at anything like its present rate. There are signs that the population growth rate is already slowing in some parts of Europe and Asia.

Calculations similar to these remind us that the major effect of steady growth in the rates of consumption of non-renewable resources is to shorten dramatically the life-expectancy of the resources. (10)

Julian Simon has claimed that the human mind is "the ultimate resource" As was noted in the review of his 1981 book, this is true "only if it [the human mind] is used." (11).


Conclusion

If the "we can grow forever" people are right, then they will expect us, as scientists, to modify our science in ways that will permit perpetual growth. We will be called on to abandon the "spherical earth" concept and figure out the science of the flat earth. We can see some of the problems we will have to solve. We will be called on to explain the balance of forces that make it possible for astronauts to circle endlessly in orbit above a flat earth, and to explain why astronauts appear to be weightless. We will have to figure out why we have time zones; where do the sun, moon and stars go when they set in the west of an infinite flat earth, and during the night, how do they get back to their starting point in the east. We will have to figure out the nature of the gravitational lensing that makes an infinite flat earth appear from space to be a small circular flat disk. These and a host of other problems will face us as the "infinite earth" people gain more and more acceptance, power and authority. We need to identify these people as members of "The New Flat Earth Society" because a flat earth is the only earth that has the potential to allow the human population to grow forever.

I don't get what the point of this is, By the sounds of the argument if we can't survive with limited resources then we should just change the way we think about the world and go on living as kings till we use it all up and starve to death.

Not to say that this isn't in line with the flat earth theory, but they would bring the conspiracy into this in which the reason they are saying we are running out of supplies is that they just want more money for their secret two million acre mansions just the other side of the ice wall.

To rephrase the argument,

"I refuse to accept that there isn't enough oil. I want all you scientists to come up with a world in which there is infinite oil and make that the new standard so I don't have to worry about there not being enough oil."

5

Philosophy, Religion & Society / In the begining

« on: February 13, 2010, 11:51:38 PM »

In the beginning the world was void and with out form. Then a bunch of dirt got together and exploded. Or so the last theory I read about the beginning of the universe said.

I'm a round earth believing, protestant christian who has read the gate-less gate and the zen koans, well versed in the mythologies of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Norse mythologies. I plan to read the Koran and some of the Veda texts if I can locate them.

I put all this forth to show that I start this topic with as neutral a ground as possible. I don't know what I hope to accomplish with this topic, nor do I plan to direct it in a particular direction. All I ask is for there to be no insults or name calling. Put forth your Ideas and let us see where they lead us.

In the beginning earth was void and without form. All religions agree to this point more or less.

According to the old testament,

the sky and the earth were created first, all the world was covered in ocean. Then came light, and night and day. Then god separated the sky from the oceans. The last step was gather the water so that dry land would appear.

According to the Egyptians,

In the beggining there was only water. They called this Nu or Nun. It was out of Nu that everything began. Then Ra emerged out of primeval chaos, he came out of a giant blue lotus flower that appeared on the surface of the water. Ra gave light to the universe. Ra created the air god Shu and his wife Tefnut the goddess of moisture. Shu and Tefnut gave birth to the sky goddess Nut and the earth god Geb, and so the physical universe was created.

Against Ra's orders Geb and Nut married. Ra was incensed and ordered Shu to seperate them, which he did. (shu (the air) holds Nut (the sky) up above Geb (the earth) out of Gebs reach) But Nut was already pregnant, although unable to give birth as Ra had decreed she could not give birth in any month of any year.

Thoth, the god of learning, desided to help her and gambling with the moon for extra light, was able to add five extra days to the 360-day calender. On those five days Nut gave birth to Osiris , Horus the elder, Seth, Isis, and Nephthys successively.

According to the Greeks,

In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.

Uranus and Gaia had many children together and eventually they had grandchildren. Some of their children become afraid of the power of their children. Kronus, in an effort to protect himself, swallowed his children when they were still infants. However, his wife Rhea hid their youngest child. She gave him a rock wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he swallowed, thinking it was his son.

Once the child, Zeus, had reached manhood his mother instructed him on how to trick his father to give up his brothers and sisters. Once this was accomplished the children fought a mighty war against their father. After much fighting the younger generation won. With Zeus as their leader, they began to furnish Gaia with life and Uranus with stars.

According to the Aztecs,

in the beginning of the world, there was nothing but darkness. On great god named Ometeotl watched over this darkness in complete solitude. However, one day, Ometeotl gave birth to four other gods. These gods created the world, filling it with giants.

The god named Tezcatlipoca the Jaguar made himself into the sun. He ruled the world. But then, the god Quetzalcoatl knocked Tezcatlipoca into the ocean with a club. Quetzalcoatl turned himself into the sun. He appointed himself ruler of the world and created people with which to populate the earth. Tezcatlipoca returned and knocked Quetzalcoatl out of the sky. A great wind tore across the world, destroying everything except for a few people, who were turned into monkey.

Next, the god Tlaloc became the sun. He repopulated the earth with another group of people. However, in an attempt to regain his throne, Quetzalcoatl sent a rain of fire down upon the earth, killing all of Tlaloc’s people except the few that became birds. Then, the goddess Chalchiuhtlicue became the sun. However, during this war between the gods Tezcatlipoca caused great floods to cover the earth. All of the people drowned except for those who turned into fish.

Due to Tezcatlipoca’s actions, the entire earth was covered with water, with no land in sight. Finally, Tezcatlopoca and Quetzalcoatl stopped their quarrel and lifted the waters off of the earth. Then, Quetzalcoatl went to the land of the dead where the bones of the people lay. He tricked the god of the underworld, Mictlantechutli, into letting him take back the bones of the people back into the world. Quetzalcoatl then dripped his own blood onto the bones. The bones transformed into living, breathing people, the Aztecs.

In order to show their gratitude towards Quetzalcoatl for giving them life, the Aztecs sacrificed people on special holidays.

According to the Vedic (the Hindu),

Who really knows, and who can swear,
How creation came, when or where!
Even gods came after creation’s day,
Who really knows, who can truly say
When and how did creation start?
Did He do it? Or did He not?
Only He, up there, knows, maybe;
Or perhaps, not even He.

This is not the complete view as they have many views, the reason for this is the following from the Rig Veda
“Truth is One; the sages call it by different names” (Rig Veda 1:164:46)
It means that every creation myth, or any myth for that matter, is part of the greater truth.

That is all I feel like posting at the moment.

6

The Lounge / My favorite quote, whats yours

« on: February 10, 2010, 02:17:10 AM »

The buggers finally learned that we humans value each and every individual human life. We don't throw our forces away because every soldier is the queen of one-member hive, But they've learned this lesson just in time for it to be hopelessly wrong

"For we humans do, when the cause is sufficient, spend our own lives. We throw ourselves onto the grenade to save our buddies in the foxhole. We rise out of the trenches and charge the entrenched enemy and die like maggots under a blowtorch. We strap bombs on our bodies and blow ourselves up in the midst of our enemies. We are, when the cause is sufficient, insane."

They don't believe we will use Dr. Device because the only way to use it is to destroy our own ships in the process. It was obvious to everyone that this was a suicide run. Win or loose there would be no human survivors.

They have never seen us make a move like that. They don't understand that,

"yes humans will always act to preserve their own lives-except for the times when they don't!"

In the buggers experience autonomous beings do not sacrifice themselves. Once they understood our autonomy their defeat was sown. Did Ender know this? It was Enders previous victories that taught the enemy to think of us as one kind of creature, when really we are something quite different. He pretended all this time that humans were rational beings, when we are really the most terrible monsters these poor aliens could ever have conceived of in their nightmares.

7

Flat Earth General / The power of an Idea

« on: February 03, 2010, 12:18:20 AM »

Behold the beauty of a new idea forming. The Idea of a flat earth was nearly completely dropped back in the 4th century bce. Now though it has had 200 years since it's return. Little has been accomplished in proving it, do to the repression from other scientists and the general populous who wag their heads with the majority.

I am new to this form but I must express my approval for what you Flat Earthers are trying to do. You are the only true scientists I have thus far seen on this site. You like many others have taken the standard way of looking at things and thrown them out the window. Trying to look at the world in a new light, to maybe make sense of the mysteries that lay within. You have shown that you are willing to say "we may not know everything about our world" even at the risk of being proven wrong. An advance in either direction is still an advance.

While I myself believe in a round earth I would like to hear more about your theories as to why the earth is flat. I will provide insightful criticisms to help you solidify ideas, or come up with new one to explain things that haven't been covered. I would like to request that there be no debating here, only a sharing of Ideas and higher thinking.

One question that I do have, to give us a starting place, is this. If the earth is flat are the other planets also flat? Appearing as spheres to us because they all face us, as has been used to explain the moon.

A second question that need not be answered right away is as follows. Why do the stars change the further south you go? I have heard the theory of bendy light, is this the cause of  the north star eventually disappearing over the horizon? And why do the stars drift over time.

ex. The Egyptians used, not the north star, but a group of stars that rotated around a point to determine both when, where, and what direction to build the pyramids. The northern points of all the pyramids at Giza point directly at magnetic north (if I remember correctly its been awhile). But since this time the earth has drifted slightly on its axis and now points directly at the north star. Predictions show that the earth will eventually drift back.

I apologize that this is now running on, but while I wrote the last question I thought of another that I would like to understand in a flat earth world. How does south work?
I see two ways that it could work.

1) (disk world theory) South is every direction that is not north (the center). But this leads to the question of how does one fly over the south pole.

2) (Map set up) South is down north is up. This one has a few more holes in it than the first one. One being that during the cold war missles where programed to fly over the north pole to Russia and vis versa.

I have many more questions but i figured I would leave it at this. If this is too much for one form page, or it simply becomes an argument fest I would like for the FE believers to email me instead.

Thanks for you time.

-Jamie Jenson-